Was Jesus/Yeshua born with a Sin Nature?

[Pierac]

Ah.... of course! I recognize another cult!

View attachment 25281

So do I...
Yet... Peter at Pentecost... Told you... what Grailhunter said...
Pay attention silly child!

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- Even Jesus agrees with Grailhunter... Jesus calls himself "a man" (John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. and the apostles call him "a man" (Acts 2: 22; 1 Tim. 2:5). 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, He is constantly contrasted with and distinguished from God, his/our Father.

You have much to learn... Mr E
The other Paul

 

[Mr E]

So do I...
Yet... Peter at Pentecost... Told you... what Grailhunter said...
Pay attention silly child!

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- Even Jesus agrees with Grailhunter... Jesus calls himself "a man" (John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. and the apostles call him "a man" (Acts 2: 22; 1 Tim. 2:5). 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, He is constantly contrasted with and distinguished from God, his/our Father.

You have much to learn... Mr E
The other Paul

Ummm.... are you talking to me? Do a little reading and inform yourself. I've never said he was anything more or less.

 

[Gregory]

I have been born again. What does the scripture say about me? Are you born again? Does it mean that you don't sin?

I believe that as a born-again Christian, you should be enveloped in the love of God, and this should cause you to not sin. But there may be circumstances where you fall out of the envelope and we do sin. So God has given us a repentance process that if done properly will get us back into his envelope of love, and back on the path to eternal life.

However, in some egregious situations, it may be impossible to return to the envelope as Paul tells us in Hebrews.
Hebrews 6:4-6
King James Version
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Obviously, these people were members of the church in good standing, having been enlightened and tasted of heavenly gifts, and born-again of the Holy Ghost and knew the good word of God and know the powers of the world to come. Wow, what a description of one that is born-again.
But somehow, Paul tells us it is impossible for this person who falls away to return. So we better choose wisely, even though we are born-again.

 

[Gregory]

I've never heard of "fallen angel theology" so how could I paint it?
It sounds like a tangled furball of convoluted theological hogwash to me..

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I prefer the simple uncluttered approach to scripture just as Paul reminded people-
"I'm worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:3)

Have you read Revelations 12 and the war in heaven and the fall of Lucifer/satan?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I believe that as a born-again Christian, you should be enveloped in the love of God, and this should cause you to not sin. But there may be circumstances where you fall out of the envelope and we do sin. So God has given us a repentance process that if done properly will get us back into his envelope of love, and back on the path to eternal life.

However, in some egregious situations, it may be impossible to return to the envelope as Paul tells us in Hebrews.
Hebrews 6:4-6
King James Version
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Obviously, these people were members of the church in good standing, having been enlightened and tasted of heavenly gifts, and born-again of the Holy Ghost and knew the good word of God and know the powers of the world to come. Wow, what a description of one that is born-again.
But somehow, Paul tells us it is impossible for this person who falls away to return. So we better choose wisely, even though we are born-again.

Exactly, and Paul even says to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Some Christians are so apathetic about keeping themselves pure they think they can do anything they want and not be in any danger of falling off the narrow path of salvation; the fallacy of OSAS.

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,
But fools despise wisdom and instruction.

 

[Dropship]

Have you read Revelations 12 and the war in heaven and the fall of Lucifer/satan?

Yes great stuff, but Revelation is heavily laced with metaphor, analogy and abstracts, so it's not always easy for our human minds to decipher, especially if we take it too literally..

 

[Wrangler]

Was Jesus/Yeshua born with a Sin Nature?

.What is a "sin nature?".

Good question. Terms are not defined. My take on the nature that Jesus was born with was the EXACT same as the nature Adam was created with. That nature is a human nature unaffected by Original Sin. Hence, Romans 5:18.


So here is the result: as one man’s sin brought about condemnation and punishment for all people, so one man’s act of faithfulness makes all of us right with God and brings us to new life.
Romans 5:18 The Voice

 

[face2face]

Good question. Terms are not defined. My take on the nature that Jesus was born with was the EXACT same as the nature Adam was created with. That nature is a human nature unaffected by Original Sin. Hence, Romans 5:18.


So here is the result: as one man’s sin brought about condemnation and punishment for all people, so one man’s act of faithfulness makes all of us right with God and brings us to new life.
Romans 5:18 The Voice

Wrangler, do you believe Jesus was condemned to die a natural death?

 

[ChristisGod]

Good question. Terms are not defined. My take on the nature that Jesus was born with was the EXACT same as the nature Adam was created with. That nature is a human nature unaffected by Original Sin. Hence, Romans 5:18.


So here is the result: as one man’s sin brought about condemnation and punishment for all people, so one man’s act of faithfulness makes all of us right with God and brings us to new life.
Romans 5:18 The Voice

And we see no change in nature of adam after the fall. He was still in the image of God that never changed and there are many references to mankind throughout scripture post fall being in the image of God. Augustine brought the doctrine of original sin into the church.It did not exist until he taught the concept.

 

[Wrangler]

Wrangler, do you believe Jesus was condemned to die a natural death?

I really don't understand the question. Generally, a natural death is in contrast with being put to death.

Jesus was condemned to death, which is a fact, not a matter of belief. Are you asking me if he was condemned by God?

 

[Wrangler]

And we see no change in nature of adam after the fall.

Hmmm. I don't think you grasp the significance of the consequences of sin.

My pastor said in yesterday's powerful sermon that When self becomes central, reality becomes skewed. And a great verse he used to demonstrate that is GE 3:7. In their sin-filled, self-centered, skewed minds, the reason they hid from their Creator was because they were naked. Not even aware were they or cared about the emerging evil within and the relationship damaging choice they made.

I think our focus on what natural means in this conversation is a bit skewed. It is natural for a piece of meat to spoil, to be rotten. Yet, its nature is still meat, is it not?

Because of sin, we change from vessel's that receive the blessings of YHWH to vessel's that receive his curses. That is arguably, the biggest change we can experience.

 

[Wrangler]

And we see no change in nature of adam after the fall. He was still in the image of God

Hasn't the problem of mankind always been that while we look like God, we often do not contain his Spirit?

 

[MatthewG]

I have listened to all of this criminal case interrogation.

It is interesting, and crazy.

 

[The Learner]

No - its a fanciful notion but the true is far more profound.

John 17:5
And now, Father, give me glory with you. Give me the glory I had with you before the world was made.

John 17:24
“Father, I want these people you have given me to be with me in every place I am. I want them to see my glory—the glory you gave me because you loved me before the world was made.

 

[face2face]

John 17:5
And now, Father, give me glory with you. Give me the glory I had with you before the world was made.

John 17:24
“Father, I want these people you have given me to be with me in every place I am. I want them to see my glory—the glory you gave me because you loved me before the world was made.

Now try explaining it with understanding...I'll be here

 

[The Learner]

The imagery of a lamb without spot is speaking to a flawless character right?

Romans 8:3
Complete Jewish Bible
3 For what the Torah could not do by itself, because it lacked the power to make the old nature cooperate, God did by sending his own Son as a human being with a nature like our own sinful one [but without sin]. God did this in order to deal with sin, and in so doing he executed the punishment against sin in human nature,

Hebrews 2:14-17
14 Therefore, since the children share a common physical nature as human beings, he became like them and shared that same human nature; so that by his death he might render ineffective the one who had power over death (that is, the Adversary) 15 and thus set free those who had been in bondage all their lives because of their fear of death.

16 Indeed, it is obvious that he does not take hold of angels to help them; on the contrary,

“He takes hold of the seed of Avraham.”[a]

17 This is why he had to become like his brothers in every respect — so that he might become a merciful and faithful cohen gadol in the service of God, making a kapparah for the sins of the people.


Footnotes
Hebrews 2:16 Isaiah 41:8–9

Hebrews 2:17
17 This is why he had to become like his brothers in every respect — so that he might become a merciful and faithful cohen gadol in the service of God, making a kapparah for the sins of the people.

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Copyright © 1998 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved.

 

[The Learner]

Romans 8:3
Expanded Bible
3 The law [C of Moses] was without power, because the law was made weak by our ·sinful selves [sinful nature; T flesh]. But God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son to earth ·with the same human life that others use for sin [or in a body like ours, prone to sin; L in the likeness of sinful flesh]. By sending his Son ·to be an offering for sin [L concerning sin], God ·used a human life to destroy sin [L condemned sin in the flesh].

Hebrews 2:14-17
Expanded Bible
14 [L Therefore] Since these children ·are people with physical bodies [have in common their flesh and blood], Jesus himself ·became like them [shared their humanity; L likewise shared the same things]. He did this so that, by dying, he could destroy the one who has the power of death—the devil— 15 and free those who were ·like slaves [held in slavery] all their lives because of their fear of death. 16 [L For] Clearly, it is not angels that Jesus helps, but the ·people who are from [seed/descendants of] Abraham [C the father of the Jewish nation; Gen. 12—25]. 17 For this reason Jesus had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every way so he could ·be their [L become a] merciful and faithful high priest in ·service [L the things pertaining] to God. Then Jesus could ·die in their place to take away [make atonement for; be the sacrifice that pays for; be the sacrifice that appeases God’s wrath against] ·their sins [L the sins of the people].

 

[The Learner]

Hebrews 2:17
Expanded Bible
17 For this reason Jesus had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every way so he could ·be their [L become a] merciful and faithful high priest in ·service [L the things pertaining] to God. Then Jesus could ·die in their place to take away [make atonement for; be the sacrifice that pays for; be the sacrifice that appeases God’s wrath against] ·their sins [L the sins of the people].

Romans 8:3
Good News Translation
3 What the Law could not do, because human nature was weak, God did. He condemned sin in human nature by sending his own Son, who came with a nature like our sinful nature, to do away with sin.

Hebrews 2:14-17
Good News Translation
14 Since the children, as he calls them, are people of flesh and blood, Jesus himself became like them and shared their human nature. He did this so that through his death he might destroy the Devil, who has the power over death, 15 and in this way set free those who were slaves all their lives because of their fear of death. 16 For it is clear that it is not the angels that he helps. Instead, he helps the descendants of Abraham. 17 This means that he had to become like his people in every way, in order to be their faithful and merciful High Priest in his service to God, so that the people's sins would be forgiven.

Hebrews 2:17
17 This means that he had to become like his people in every way, in order to be their faithful and merciful High Priest in his service to God, so that the people's sins would be forgiven.

"Verse 3
What the law could not do [το αδυνατον του νομου] . Lit., the impossible (thing) of the law. An absolute nominative in apposition with the divine act - condemned sin. God condemned sin which condemnation was an impossible thing on the part of the law. The words stand first in the Greek order for emphasis.

In the likeness of sinful flesh. Lit., of the flesh of sin. The choice of words is especially noteworthy. Paul does not say simply, "He came in flesh" (1 John 4:2; 1 Timothy 3:16), for this would not have expressed the bond between Christ 's manhood and sin. Not in the flesh of sin, which would have represented Him as partaking of sin. Not in the likeness of flesh, since He was really and entirely human; but, in the likeness of the flesh of sin : really human, conformed in appearance to the flesh whose characteristic is sin, yet sinless. "Christ appeared in a body which was like that of other men in so far as it consisted of flesh, and was unlike in so far as the flesh was not flesh of sin" (Dickson). 42 For sin [περι αμαρτιας] . The preposition expresses the whole relation of the mission of Christ to sin. The special relation is stated in condemned. For sin - to atone, to destroy, to save and sanctify its victims.

Condemned. Deposed from its dominion, a thing impossible to the law, which could pronounce judgment and inflict penalty, but not dethrone. Christ 's holy character was a condemnation of unholiness. Construe in the flesh with condemned."

2:14-17

...

emphasis.

In the likeness of sinful flesh. Lit., of the flesh of sin. The choice of words is especially noteworthy. Paul does not say simply, "He came in flesh" (1 John 4:2; 1 Timothy 3:16), for this would not have expressed the bond between Christ 's manhood and sin. Not in the flesh of sin, which would have represented Him as partaking of sin. Not in the likeness of flesh, since He was really and entirely human; but, in the likeness of the flesh of sin : really human, conformed in appearance to the flesh whose characteristic is sin, yet sinless. "Christ appeared in a body which was like that of other men in so far as it consisted of flesh, and was unlike in so far as the flesh was not flesh of sin" (Dickson). 42 For sin [περι αμαρτιας] . The preposition expresses the whole relation of the mission of Christ to sin. The special relation is stated in condemned. For sin - to atone, to destroy, to save and sanctify its victims.

Define likeness = like·ness
Learn to pronounce
noun
the fact or quality of being alike; resemblance.
"her likeness to him was astonishing"
Similar:
resemblance
similarity
alikeness
sameness
similitude
congruity
affinity
correspondence
analogy
parallelism
agreement
relationship
identity
identicalness
uniformity
conformity
equivalence
Opposite:
dissimilarity
the semblance, guise, or outward appearance of.
"humans are described as being made in God's likeness"
Similar:
semblance
guise
appearance
outward form
form
shape
image
aspect
character
mien
a portrait or representation.
"the only known likeness of Dorothy as a young woman"

2:14-17

Hebrews 2:14
Easy-to-Read Version
14 These children are people with physical bodies. So Jesus himself became like them and had the same experiences they have. Jesus did this so that, by dying, he could destroy the one who has the power of death—the devil.

"
They that are sanctified (ο αγιαζομενο). Present passive articular participle of αγιαζω. It is a process here as in Hebrews 10:14, not a single act, though in Hebrews 10:10 the perfect passive indicative presents a completed state.

Of one (εξ ενος). Referring to God as the Father of Jesus and of the "many sons" above (verse Hebrews 2:10) and in harmony with verse Hebrews 2:14 below. Even before the incarnation Jesus had a kinship with men though we are not sons in the full sense that he is.

He is not ashamed (ουκ επαισχυνετα). Present passive indicative of επαισχυνομα, old compound (Romans 1:16). Because of the common Father Jesus is not ashamed to own us as "brothers" (αδελφους), unworthy sons though we be.

Verse 12
Unto my brethren (τοις αδελφοις μου). To prove his point the writer quotes Psalms 22:22 when the Messiah is presented as speaking "unto my brethren."

Congregation (εκκλησιας). The word came to mean the local church and also the general church or kingdom (Matthew 16:18; Hebrews 12:23). Here we have the picture of public worship and the Messiah sharing it with others as we know Jesus often did.

Verse 13
I will put my trust in him (Εγω εσομα πεποιθως επ' αυτω). A rare periphrastic (intransitive) future perfect of πειθω, a quotation from Isaiah 8:17. The author represents the Messiah as putting his trust in God as other men do (cf. Hebrews 12:2). Certainly Jesus did this constantly. The third quotation (κα παλιν, And again) is from Isaiah 8:18 (the next verse), but the Messiah shows himself closely linked with the children (παιδια) of God, the sons (υιο) of verse Hebrews 2:10.

Verse 14
Are sharers in flesh and blood (κεκοινωνηκεν αιματος κα σαρκος). The best MSS. read "blood and flesh." The verb is perfect active indicative of κοινωνεω, old verb with the regular genitive, elsewhere in the N.T. with the locative (Romans 12:13) or with εν or εις. "The children have become partners (κοινωνο) in blood and flesh."

Partook (μετεσχε). Second aorist active indicative of μετεχω, to have with, a practical synonym for κοινωνεω and with the genitive also (των αυτων). That he might bring to nought (ινα καταργηση). Purpose of the incarnation clearly stated with ινα and the first aorist active subjunctive of καταργεω, old word to render idle or ineffective (from κατα, αργος), causative verb (25 times in Paul), once in Luke (Luke 13:7), once in Hebrews (here). "By means of death" (his own death) Christ broke the power (κρατος) of the devil over death (paradoxical as it seems), certainly in men's fear of death and in some unexplained way Satan had sway over the realm of death (Zechariah 3:5). Note the explanatory τουτ' εστιν (that is) with the accusative after it as before it. In Revelation 12:7 Satan is identified with the serpent in Eden, though it is not done in the Old Testament. See Romans 5:12; John 8:44; John 14:30; John 16:11; 1 John 3:12. Death is the devil's realm, for he is the author of sin. "Death as death is no part of the divine order" (Westcott).

Verse 15
And might deliver (κα απαλλαξη). Further purpose with the first aorist active subjunctive of αππαλλασσω, old verb to change from, to set free from, in N.T. only here, Luke 12:58; Acts 19:12.

Through fear of death (φοβω θανατου). Instrumental case of φοβος. The ancients had great fear of death though the philosophers like Seneca argued against it. There is today a flippant attitude towards death with denial of the future life and rejection of God. But the author of Hebrews saw judgement after death (Hebrews 9:27). Hence our need of Christ to break the power of sin and Satan in death."

Romans 8 - Vincent's Word Studies - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
Romans 8 - Haydock's Catholic Bible Commentary - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
Hebrews 2 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

 

[The Learner]

Amplified: For God has done what the Law could not do, [its power] being weakened by the flesh [the entire nature of man without the Holy Spirit]. Sending His own Son in the guise of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, [God] condemned sin in the flesh [subdued, overcame, deprived it of its power over all who accept that sacrifice] (Amplified Bible - Lockman)

 

[RLT63]

Hello to you all (wave) (the question is at the very end).

Here is the scripture I’m talking about


“to a virgin, betrothed to a man, whose name [is] Joseph, of the house of David, and the name of the virgin [is] Mary. And the messenger having come in unto her, said, ‘Hail, favoured one, the Lord [is] with thee; blessed [art] thou among women;’ and she, having seen, was troubled at his word, and was reasoning of what kind this salutation may be. And the messenger said to her, ‘Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favour with God; and lo, thou shalt conceive in the womb, and shalt bring forth a son, and call his name Jesus; he shall be great, and Son of the Highest he shall be called, and the Lord God shall give him the throne of David his father, and he shall reign over the house of Jacob to the ages; and of his reign there shall be no end.’ And Mary said unto the messenger, ‘How shall this be, seeing a husband I do not know?’ And the messenger answering said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God; and lo, Elisabeth, thy kinswoman, she also hath conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month to her who was called barren; because nothing shall be impossible with God.’”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:27-37‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

Also this might be helpful to consider,


“for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathise with our infirmities, but [one] tempted in all things in like manner — apart from sin;”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:15‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

He was born of Mary, but also born by and through the Holy Spirit. He was also tempted in all things.

Are you sure He wasn’t born with a sin nature however he never sinned due to being born by the Holy Spirit, in Mary when she was overshadowed by the Most High, and having the Holy Spirit and the Father with Him to hold him back from ever sinning?

One thing we know is that he never sinned. So it really doesn't matter. You can argue over whether he could have or not but all that really matters is that he didn't.