Was judas Iscariot used by Satan ??

[Hiddenthings]

Probably because they are well versed in theology rather than the Bible….

Who was the “serpent” in Eden? He is not clearly identified except as “the adversary” in the Hebrew Scriptures, but he is clearly identified in Revelation 12:7-9….

”And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.“ (NASB)

This dragon has “angels” who belong to him….and they now roam the earth looking for people like you who insist that they don't exist…for what purpose do they exist in the first place? Was their interference planned? Or is everything that takes place in the present situation the result of the exercise of free will….by God’s permission?

Why would God give humans and angels free will when it can be abused? Because it is what make us reflect the image of our Creator. Without free will, what are we? Automatons who cannot even express love in its purest and most willing form, as demonstrated by God’s son in offering his life for us…..did Jesus have free will? Isn’t that what makes his sacrifice all the more precious because it wasn’t part of a preconceived plan, that forced him to comply out of duty…..but the result of loving the human race and wanting the best for them at his own expense?

Free will is also the possession of God’s heavenly sons, whom the Bible describes as magnificent when seen in vision, but only in human form when they acted as messengers on earth.

In his dirge to the King of Tyre, God, by his prophet Ezekiel, vividly described the steps that his once magnificent son took, in order to gain worship for himself. Though aimed at an earthly king, his words go way beyond that of an earthling…..

Ezekiel 28:12-17….
“Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. “You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering:. . . And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared. “You were the anointed cherub who covers,And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. “You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you. (NASB)

This is not speaking about a human….this one is “created” not born….and is described in terms that do not fit any human, born of Adam.

“Cherubs“ in the Bible are a rank among God’s angelic sons, given guardianship positions…..and in that capacity, was the Cherub who became “satan the devil“. He was there in the garden, observing everything and planning a way to gain the worship of the humans for himself. He is no mere quality of evil but a real entity, with a very real agenda….
Once the humans were evicted from the garden, God gave them over to the “god” they had chosen to obey.

As satan told Jesus in his temptation….

”And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said to Him, “I will give You all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. Therefore if You worship before me, it shall all be Yours.” (Luke 4:5-7 NASB)

If you cliam that he doesn’t exist, then you are a prime target for the deceiver, because he already has you under his control. He has convinced you that he is not really there, so you have no weapons of defense to defeat him and he will use you to convince others by your misuse of Scripture.

We need to review your assumptions above...there are a lot I'm afraid.

What if the animal in the Garden was simply as Scripture and the Apostle Paul teach, just a serpent, more cunning than any beast the Lord God had made?

Genesis 3:1, which plainly says: “Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made…”

And it aligns with Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:3, where he writes: “But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray...”

Revelation doesn’t help your case, as it does not define the creature in Genesis and could just as easily represent symbolic entities such as nations or people. The layered symbology found in Revelation works against a literal reinterpretation of the serpent, not in favor of it. If you believe the end of the Bible defines what happened in the beginning, you are making a serious interpretive error.

Rather than jumping from an animal in Genesis, to end times adversaries and the King of Tyre why not show you creatures origin story from the first five books? You clearly believe Revelation 12 is defining this creature for you so we should see in the first five books something of this creature past, character etc?

If you can't then that needs to be acknowledged also.

 

[Aunty Jane]

What if the animal in the Garden was simply as Scripture and the Apostle Paul teach, just a serpent, more cunning than any beast the Lord God had made?

The Bible isn’t about “what if’s”.

Revelation doesn’t help your case, as it does not define the creature in Genesis and could just as easily represent symbolic entities such as nations or people. The layered symbology found in Revelation works against a literal reinterpretation of the serpent, not in favor of it. If you believe the end of the Bible defines what happened in the beginning, you are making a serious interpretive error.

Resorting to “what if’s” is hardly appealing to the Bible for answers.
What God’s word says is inconvenient to many because it doesn’t say what they want it to….but it is what it is….and it says what it says….the original serpent is identified as satan the devil and that he has his angels….argue with that.

Genesis 3:1, which plainly says: “Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made…”

And it aligns with Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:3, where he writes: “But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray...”

What better animal to use as a weapon for his own purpose?….one already known for it’s cunning ways?
Did the woman know that serpents could not speak? Or was this serpent a bit special?
As angels could apparently take on human form when on earth, what was to stop the devil from transforming himself into a creature that he could use to deceive the woman? Or to even use a snake as a ventriloquist does? “How many “what if’s“ do you need? We can only go by what the Scriptures say and it says that the serpent spoke to the woman, planting seeds of doubt and accusing God of being selfish and mean by denying rights to the humans that would be beneficial to them?

Was he appealing to their base sinful human nature? How could he when they didn’t have one until they disobeyed? Sin came from disobedience….not the other way around.

Rather than jumping from an animal in Genesis, to end times adversaries and the King of Tyre why not show you creatures origin story from the first five books? You clearly believe Revelation 12 is defining this creature for you so we should see in the first five books something of this creature past, character etc?

The Bible is God’s word….you cannot manipulate what it says because it disagrees with what you want to believe….this is about as lame an argument as I have seen from you….
The description found in Ezekiel is about the devil, and how he became God’s “adversary”.
Look up the word “adversary” and see if it is a friendly position to hold?

What kind of loving God would produce his own adversary and create the chaos that resulted from his interference? There is a vast difference between causing the chaos, and using it for the right reasons. “The end justifies the means”…..God has used the rebellion to create precedents for all time to come….so it can never interfere with his purpose again. Free will is preserved as the gift it was meant to be….instead of the curse it became after disobedience and sin entered into the equation.

If you can't then that needs to be acknowledged also.

I think it’s time for you yourself to acknowledge a few things…..your excuses so far are looking a little thin….you want to rewrite Scripture to say what it doesn’t….giving it a new spin doesn’t equal a new truth.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The “flesh nature” was not created with “lusts” and wrong “desires”…..satan

Again you seem to be in opposition to Paul

"The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven." (1 Corinthians 15:47–49)

Do you believe Adam was created Spiritual?

Do you believe Earthy Adam was made in the image of the Spirit? Meaning he could not experience desire or lust as an earthy man?

Your position above makes no sense Jane, as flesh as a substance is the only material capable of temptation and sin. The Bible is super clear on this teaching.

(note: Divine nature cannot sin!)

 

[Hiddenthings]

The Bible isn’t about “what if’s”.

No but that's how you started your reply! You made assumptions which are not evident in the Word

Resorting to “what if’s” is hardly appealing to the Bible for answers.
What God’s word says is inconvenient to many because it doesn’t say what they want it to….but it is what it is….and it says what it says….the original serpent is identified as satan the devil and that he has his angels….argue with that.

Show me a Scripture which defines your evil creature with the serpent. Evidence revealing that the actual serpent in Genesis is your Evil Creature.

What better animal to use as a weapon for his own purpose?….one already known for it’s cunning ways?

It was merely an animal with voice - Paul speaks of this carnal mind!

Did the woman know that serpents could not speak? Or was this serpent a bit special?

Clearly God made this Serpent that way as it clearly states.

As angels could apparently take on human form when on earth, what was to stop the devil from transforming himself into a creature that he could use to deceive the woman?

Again - show the evidence! You keep making these assumptions which the text does not support.

Or to even use a snake as a ventriloquist does? “How many “what if’s“ do you need?

I can see you are struggling here - you will only do yourself a disservice if you try and force things on the text.

We can only go by what the Scriptures say and it says that the serpent spoke to the woman, planting seeds of doubt and accusing God of being selfish and mean by denying rights to the humans that would be beneficial to them?

I have no problem with a serpent speaking.

Was he appealing to their base sinful human nature?

You said earlier they didnt have this nature!

How could he when they didn’t have one until they disobeyed? Sin came from disobedience….not the other way around.

Temptation came from their nature - you can't avoid this fact!

The Bible is God’s word….you cannot manipulate what it says because it disagrees with what you want to believe….this is about as lame an argument as I have seen from you….
The description found in Ezekiel is about the devil, and how he became God’s “adversary”.
Look up the word “adversary” and see if it is a friendly position to hold?

You provided three sections of Scripture all with different context and with narratives all requiring a separate interpretation. Just because you felt the need to daisy chain them together doesn't mean they are related.

Surely you get what i mean!

What kind of loving God would produce his own adversary and create the chaos that resulted from his interference?

You mean He is not allowed to test his children? Who are you to say otherwise?

There is a vast difference between causing the chaos, and using it for the right reasons. “The end justifies the means”…..God has used the rebellion to create precedents for all time to come….so it can never interfere with his purpose again. Free will is preserved as the gift it was meant to be….instead of the curse it became after disobedience and sin entered into the equation.

I think it’s time for you yourself to acknowledge a few things…..your excuses so far are looking a little thin….you want to rewrite Scripture to say what it doesn’t….giving it a new spin doesn’t equal a new truth.

I’m not seeing anything in your responses that actually defines the creature in question.

If you'd like, I can walk you through Genesis 3 and demonstrate clearly that your 'devil' is not present there.

I can also provide the proper interpretation of Ezekiel 28, which remains grounded in its historical and textual context.

The same applies to Revelation 12. I’m fully prepared to show how it does not support the assumptions being made.

What’s become evident in this discussion is that you know what you need to establish your claim but you’re frustrated because you can’t provide it. That’s the reality we’ve uncovered in this thread.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Aunty Jane you have made the same mistake many others in this thread have done but even worse. Where they have referenced one verse and assumed notions upon it you choose 3 whole sections of Scripture. If your creature is evil and a single entity, then you should be able to demonstrate an origin story.

Do you have any text which defines this creature?

I'm not wanting your theological inferences or grand leaps of logic from one end of the book to the other. If you don't, be honest! Then we can start the conversation about why this might be!

An example: if you asked me to define the Lord Jesus Christ I could spend the rest of my life demonstrating his origin story, character and purpose etc.

You have put up one post with 3 sections of text and you have shown me nothing at all! Not one fact about the identity and character etc of this creature.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Again you seem to be in opposition to Paul

Not even a hint. Paul was not in opposition to Scripture. Nothing he wrote fights with anything else in the Bible. If you find his writings to be supporting your view then that is entirely your problem.

"The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven." (1 Corinthians 15:47–49)

Do you believe Adam was created Spiritual?

I believe that Adam was created 100% mortal human just as the man Jesus was.
A mortal, created in God’s image, has a spiritual side to his nature, unlike the animals, who are not created with a need to worship or to serve their Creator in a conscious way.
Humans were created to represent God here and to do as he commanded them, without questioning his motives because he didn’t have bad ones.

If you have a good understanding of what “redemption” meant to a Jew, you would know that equivalency is the basis for it. It is something of agreed value given in exchange for the same cost. What Adam lost for all his children was sinless human life and only an equivalent sinless human life could pay the debt. Jesus did so willingly. He came from heaven and returned there when his mission was completed.

Do you believe Earthy Adam was made in the image of the Spirit? Meaning he could not experience desire or lust as an earthy man?

Your position above makes no sense Jane, as flesh as a substance is the only material capable of temptation and sin. The Bible is super clear on this teaching.

(note: Divine nature cannot sin!)

You base your assumptions on incorrect interpretation. The only way for a mortal human to bear the image of an invisible immortal God is to have been created with his qualities and attributes. Which we have…and which is what makes us distinctly different to our fellow “souls” (animals) on this planet. Yet we have no superiority over them in death….as we die the same death as they do. (Eccl 3:19-20) The way God restores human life is by resurrection….animals are not said to have that destiny.

What Adam was created with, was perfection of mind, body and spirit…..when sin entered into him, through disobedience, he lost that perfection, resulting in base instincts such as lust and wrong desires entering into their consciousness.….but free will was exercised in a wrong way in order for that to occur. Only after sin became part of human nature do we see the base instincts come to the surface…..a “knowledge of good and evil” was never supposed to be ours…it was placed exclusively in God’s own jurisdiction…..and if the first humans had never disobeyed, sin would never have become part of their lives. Their perfection of mind, body and spirit would have continued for all eternity, right here on planet Earth where God created us to live forever.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Aunty Jane you have made the same mistake many others in this thread have done but even worse. Where they have referenced one verse and assumed notions upon it you choose 3 whole sections of Scripture. If your creature is evil and a single entity, then you should be able to demonstrate an origin story.

I did, but you ignored it….what I offered was rejected because it doesn’t fit your chiosen view….who said you were right? You assume a lot.

Do you have any text which defines this creature?

Again I gave you scriptural evidence and you dismissed it.…not my problem.

I'm not wanting your theological inferences or grand leaps of logic from one end of the book to the other. If you don't, be honest! Then we can start the conversation about why this might be!

You assume that I must come over to your way of thinking because you cannot be wrong….well, I’m sorry mate but you are way off the mark on this one. If you want to argue with Scripture, I cannot open your eyes…only God can do that.

An example: if you asked me to define the Lord Jesus Christ I could spend the rest of my life demonstrating his origin story, character and purpose etc.

You have put up one post with 3 sections of text and you have shown me nothing at all! Not one fact about the identity and character etc of this creature.

I addressed everything you stated…..but again just because you reject it doesn’t make it wrong. You have not presented a thing that would sway anyone your way. It fights with the whole reason why Jesus came, “to undo the works of the devil”…..

Until his own rebellion, the devil did not exist. “Devil” and “satan” are not names, but character descriptions that allow us to see who and what he really is.
God did not create humans with defects…the defects came with their abuse of free will.….sin and death were not inevitable….they were foreign elements in human life from the beginning of man’s fall…..and remain so to this day. Only God can eliminate them.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Not even a hint. Paul was not in opposition to Scripture. Nothing he wrote fights with anything else in the Bible. If you find his writings to be supporting your view then that is entirely your problem.

Paul understood the true nature of the enemy and it was not a single entity but the nature you bare.

I believe that Adam was created 100% mortal human just as the man Jesus was.

Good so you understand the true source of sin as Jesus taught:

Mark 7:20–23:20 And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.
23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."

By the way this section would have been perfect for Jesus to talk about your evil creature but he couldn't because it does not exist!

A mortal, created in God’s image, has a spiritual side to his nature, unlike the animals, who are not created with a need to worship or to serve their Creator in a conscious way.

He has a mind which can reason upon his Word - in substance we are no different to the animals!

Humans were created to represent God here and to do as he commanded them, without questioning his motives because he didn’t have bad ones.

If you have a good understanding of what “redemption” meant to a Jew, you would know that equivalency is the basis for it. It is something of agreed value given in exchange for the same cost. What Adam lost for all his children was sinless human life and only an equivalent sinless human life could pay the debt. Jesus did so willingly. He came from heaven and returned there when his mission was completed.

You base your assumptions on incorrect interpretation. The only way for a mortal human to bear the image of an invisible immortal God is to have been created with his qualities and attributes.

Yes, those attributes you say need to be developed however you are avoiding the subject - no evidence for an arch enemy of God.

I'm waiting for evidence!

Which we have…and which is what makes us distinctly different to our fellow “souls” (animals) on this planet. Yet we have no superiority over them in death….as we die the same death as they do. (Eccl 3:19-20) The way God restores human life is by resurrection….animals are not said to have that destiny.

What Adam was created with, was perfection of mind, body and spirit…..when sin entered into him, through disobedience, he lost that perfection, resulting in base instincts such as lust and wrong desires entering into their consciousness.….but free will was exercised in a wrong way in order for that to occur. Only after sin became part of human nature do we see the base instincts come to the surface…..a “knowledge of good and evil” was never supposed to be ours…it was placed exclusively in God’s own jurisdiction…..and if the first humans had never disobeyed, sin would never have become part of their lives. Their perfection of mind, body and spirit would have continued for all eternity, right here on planet Earth where God created us to live forever.

Yeah, you are off on a tangent - come back to the theme and provide evidence.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I did, but you ignored it….what I offered was rejected because it doesn’t fit your chiosen view….who said you were right? You assume a lot.

Not ignore - it's failure on your part to define this being. Have you believed in this creature blindly?

Again I gave you scriptural evidence and you dismissed it.…not my problem.

No, you put up random verses and said "see" and I've returned to say no! Those text cannot support what you're asking of them!

You assume that I must come over to your way of thinking because you cannot be wrong….well, I’m sorry mate but you are way off the mark on this one. If you want to argue with Scripture, I cannot open your eyes…only God can do that.

Show evidence which defines your creature - if you cannot simply say so - its not hard.

I addressed everything you stated…..but again just because you reject it doesn’t make it wrong. You have not presented a thing that would sway anyone your way. It fights with the whole reason why Jesus came, “to undo the works of the devil”…..

Okay show me what the works of the devil are!

Here... I'll give you space to write you answer:

Until his own rebellion, the devil did not exist.

Where?

“Devil” and “satan” are not names, but character descriptions that allow us to see who and what he really is.

Scripture?

God did not create humans with defects…the defects came with their abuse of free will.….sin and death were not inevitable….they were foreign elements in human life from the beginning of man’s fall…..and remain so to this day. Only God can eliminate them.

You keep doing the same every time you reply.

You misrepresent 3 sections of text and then proceed to make all these assumptions as though you have provided evidence when you have not.

Show me from the Word!

 

[Hiddenthings]

What Adam was created with, was perfection of mind, body and spirit…..when sin entered into him,

You are so misled on this point its crazy!

Every single writer in the Bible knows it comes from our nature!

But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death Jame 1:14:15

No different for Adam as it is for you!

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Aunty Jane You now need to show a text which demonstrates sin entering Adam, or anyone externally.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Probably because they are well versed in theology rather than the Bible….

Who was the “serpent” in Eden?

If you can demonstrate a "who" instead of "the "what" being an animal with ability to speak its carnal mind, then you might begin to have evidence.

For example, when Jesus called the Pharisees a 'brood of vipers,' he wasn’t saying they were literal snakes, but that they displayed the deceptive and poisonous characteristics of a serpent.

But again, nowhere in the NT is your being given any explanation, not once!

 

[Aunty Jane]

You are so misled on this point its crazy!

Every single writer in the Bible knows it comes from our nature!

Well, I guess the point you missed was that it wasn’t in our nature to begin with….God did not create us to sin…he gave us free will and a command to obey. If they had obeyed God’s command sin would never have become our reality. How is it that you cnnot see what is plainly written?

But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death Jame 1:14:15

No different for Adam as it is for you!

A big difference for Adam compared to us. Adam did not have a sin nature to blame for his rebellion nor did the devil. Each one took that path you just described. It was willful and deliberate disobedience…..no excuse and no basis to forgive them.

Why would Christ have to come to rescue us from something that God deliberately did to humans?
That is what is ridiculous!

@Aunty Jane You now need to show a text which demonstrates sin entering Adam, or anyone externally.

And the blindness continues…..why did Adam and his wife suddenly realize that they were naked only after consuming the fruit? Why did they sow figs leaves together to hide their shame? They were not created to feel shame at their nakedness, which means that unbridled carnal lust was not a part of their original creation.

Why did God evict them from the garden if they simply acted on their own instincts? Why were they barred from “the tree of life” for something God did to them?
Your scenario is completely Illogical. I “need to show” you no more than I already have.

I am really not interested in rehashing…so I have said all I am going to on this topic. You have the other side of the coin and it’s one that makes logical sense to me. It really doesn’t interest me than you cannot accept what the Scriptures teach.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Well, I guess the point you missed was that it wasn’t in our nature to begin with….God did not create us to sin…he gave us free will and a command to obey.

No, He created a creature which had the propensity to sin - sin is never something external to our nature.

If they had obeyed God’s command sin would never have become our reality. How is it that you cnnot see what is plainly written?

Sin was always going to be our reality, Jane! God knew this from the beginning...(it's why a consequence was placed in the garden)

A big difference for Adam compared to us. Adam did not have a sin nature to blame for his rebellion nor did the devil. Each one took that path you just described. It was willful and deliberate disobedience…..no excuse and no basis to forgive them.

See how you twisted that? An animal minded creature introduces this thinking to Eve - it was not your evil creature and you cannot provide one NT reference which speaks to this deception! Not one!

Why would Christ have to come to rescue us from something that God deliberately did to humans?
That is what is ridiculous!

What did God deliberately do?

He tested his first pair! His Spirit alone drove Jesus into the wilderness to be tested!

You are not making any sense!

And the blindness continues…..why did Adam and his wife suddenly realize that they were naked only after consuming the fruit? Why did they sow figs leaves together to hide their shame? They were not created to feel shame at their nakedness, which means that unbridled carnal lust was not a part of their original creation.

Before they sinned, they were in harmony with everything, God included however when they sinned this changed. The shame you mention is because they now knew sin and their consciences were defiled.

Why did God evict them from the garden if they simply acted on their own instincts? Why were they barred from “the tree of life” for something God did to them?

Because the Angels could see if they ate of the tree of life in their sinful state it would represent immortal sinners something God would never allow - ever!

Your scenario is completely Illogical. I “need to show” you no more than I already have.

Even in this response you still have not shown any definition of your creature - it doesn't exist does it?

I am really not interested in rehashing…so I have said all I am going to on this topic. You have the other side of the coin and it’s one that makes logical sense to me. It really doesn’t interest me than you cannot accept what the Scriptures teach.

But it interests me that you believe in something you cannot prove. I've come to know you Jane and your integrity is high when it comes to showing proof.

I know where this conversation will end and its getting close.

 

[David Lamb]

We need to review your assumptions above...there are a lot I'm afraid.

What if the animal in the Garden was simply as Scripture and the Apostle Paul teach, just a serpent, more cunning than any beast the Lord God had made?

Genesis 3:1, which plainly says: “Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made…”

And it aligns with Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:3, where he writes: “But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray...”

Revelation doesn’t help your case, as it does not define the creature in Genesis and could just as easily represent symbolic entities such as nations or people. The layered symbology found in Revelation works against a literal reinterpretation of the serpent, not in favor of it. If you believe the end of the Bible defines what happened in the beginning, you are making a serious interpretive error.

Rather than jumping from an animal in Genesis, to end times adversaries and the King of Tyre why not show you creatures origin story from the first five books? You clearly believe Revelation 12 is defining this creature for you so we should see in the first five books something of this creature past, character etc?

If you can't then that needs to be acknowledged also.

You say that Revelation doesn't help, but Revelation actually says who the serpent is:

“So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” (Re 12:9 NKJV)

No mere animal deceives the whole world!

 

[Hiddenthings]

You say that Revelation doesn't help, but Revelation actually says who the serpent is:

“So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” (Re 12:9 NKJV)

Thanks for this David.

The devil of Rev 12 is nowhere stated to be a fallen angel or defined at all. The adversary in the narrative is a red dragon, not a fallen angel, and if the red-dragon is symbolic of a fallen angel, then proof that the symbol should be interpreted this way is required. The argument that Satan is a fallen angel is therefore inferred, since it is not stated that such is the case in the passage.

Can you show from Scripture the Red Dragon is a literal or symbolic dragon?

You can see the issue can you not?

You need to be able to discern the nature of the Red Dragon and if you cannot then your false accuser, adversary is not defined at all.

A meaningful discussion of Revelation 12 requires a clear distinction between what is to be taken literally and what is figurative. Before interpreting the passage, we must first establish a consistent criterion for making that distinction. Without such a framework, one can easily handle the text loosely switching between literal and symbolic readings and thereby make the passage support virtually any presupposition.

No mere animal deceives the whole world!

We have already established how the symbol of the serpent is used in Scripture David.

"But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ." (2 Corinthians 11:3)

So, the question is what events are spoken of in Revelation 12 and how do they relate to the symbol of the dragon and what the serpent represents.

A better question maybe is what deceives the whole world?

1 John 2:16: For all that is in the world the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life is not from the Father but is from the world

David, do you happen to know what the word Dragon means?

Show me what the root word means and how you think it relates to the Red Dragon of Rev 12?

 

[Hiddenthings]

You say that Revelation doesn't help, but Revelation actually says who the serpent is:

“So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” (Re 12:9 NKJV)

No mere animal deceives the whole world!

David, while you are working out that small clue about the meaning of the word Dragon which is interesting.

Imagine for a moment we assume your inferred notions, and we approached it as a literal creature.

You need to make a decision in how you will interpret this creature.

Figurative or Literal

Is your devil a "great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth" as is written in verses 3,4

How can this creature draw a third of the stars in heaven and cast them to the earth - if you think this is literal.

If even one star was cast to earth it would utterly destroy it.

Before we proceed - I need to first hear you acknowledge the Red-Dragon is figurative and not a literal creature.

 

[David Lamb]

David, while you are working out that small clue about the meaning of the word Dragon which is interesting.

Imagine for a moment we assume your inferred notions, and we approached it as a literal creature.

You need to make a decision in how you will interpret this creature.

Figurative or Literal

Is your devil a "great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth" as is written in verses 3,4

How can this creature draw a third of the stars in heaven and cast them to the earth - if you think this is literal.

If even one star was cast to earth it would utterly destroy it.

Before we proceed - I need to first hear you acknowledge the Red-Dragon is figurative and not a literal creature.

I think we are being repetitive. You are not going to convince me that the devil is not a supernatural being, and I doubt I can convince you that he is, so I am leaving this thread now.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I think we are being repetitive. You are not going to convince me that the devil is not a supernatural being, and I doubt I can convince you that he is, so I am leaving this thread now.

This is what happens when one begins to recognise the figurative nature of the passage and in that instance you've lost your anchor verse. Once that anchor is set aside, we can explore the rest of Revelation 12 and uncover even more evidence showing just how much of the chapter cannot reasonably be taken literally.

Your retreat also sends a strong message to those still on the fence that Revelation 12 cannot be used to support your position by force of interpretation.

The word Dragon means "to look" by the way and it speaks to the political context of those who look through the eyes of the flesh. These things are doubtless hidden from you because you believe in a literal red dragon which flings stars and planets literally at the earth.

Just remember David this conversation and bring it to mind when these matters are fully revealed to you in truth.

 

[Hiddenthings]

For everyone else reading this thread. It is super clear that Jesus did not believe the heavens to be the seat of angelic rebellion and subsequent war, since he taught his disciples to pray, "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven." (Matt. 6:10)

So, understanding how the word Heaven is used in Rev 12 is also something many will need to learn if they are to ever understand its meaning.