A Warning to All Who Pretend to Follow Christ

[Helen]

…As for the Judas issue , I choose to believe that only God can see the heart . Only The Father knows that state of the heart of Judas before his last miserable breath was taken.
Who are we to pronounce him lost or saved. We cannot know.
Only time will tell ……we can debate …but that is not knowledge ….

 

[Eternally Grateful]

…As for the Judas issue , I choose to believe that only God can see the heart . Only The Father knows that state of the heart of Judas before his last miserable breath was taken.
Who are we to pronounce him lost or saved. We cannot know.
Only time will tell ……we can debate …but that is not knowledge ….

he was called the son of perdition.

Just like the future leader of Rome will be called the son of perdition.

Jesus also said he was lost.

so I think we just need to take from this..

 

[bdavidc]

Surely, you must have some boundary on what is and isn't repentance. You don't call just anything repentance, right? I had a man in a disciple course I was teaching divulge his sin to the discipleship group every week, often tearfully, asking for prayer and swearing he was not going to continue in his sin any longer. But he did. Week after week, the same sin, confessed with tears and vows never to repeat again his sin, continued. Would you say this man was truly repenting of his sin? He certainly thought he was. So did other Christians. In light of this example, can you see why I've asked the question I have about repentance?

I agree with you that conviction of sin and spiritual growth are important "tells" indicating one is truly born-again. But I know many Christians who can't distinguish the conviction of the Spirit from mere pangs of guilty conscience. They think these are one and the same thing, actually. They aren't the same thing, though the Spirit's conviction may use pangs of conscience initially to do his convicting work. And so, Christians are going around feeling the same pricks of conscience, the same shame and guilt, that an atheist, or Buddhist, or Hindu might feel when they violate the "law of God written on their hearts" (i.e. conscience) and think its the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

You’re right to say not everything that looks like repentance actually is. The Bible makes a clear distinction between godly sorrow and worldly sorrow. Paul wrote, “For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of, but the sorrow of the world worketh death” (2 Corinthians 7:10). A man who confesses sin with tears every week but never turns from it shows signs of worldly sorrow, he may feel bad, he may be emotionally broken, but if there’s no forsaking of sin, no real change, it is not biblical repentance. True repentance includes both confession and forsaking sin (Proverbs 28:13). The repentance God recognizes leads to action, works meet for repentance (Acts 26:20). So no, we don’t call everything repentance. Emotion, no matter how intense, is not the measure. Obedience is.

As for distinguishing the Spirit’s conviction from a natural guilty conscience, Scripture gives clarity. The conscience is God-given, even to unbelievers, and it accuses or excuses according to the law written on the heart (Romans 2:14–15). But the Holy Spirit goes further. He convicts of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment (John 16:8). His conviction drives a believer to repentance, not just remorse. It produces a hatred for sin and a desire to be holy (Hebrews 12:10–11). Guilt alone can come from conscience, culture, or consequences. But when the Spirit convicts, it leads to confession, cleansing, and transformation (1 John 1:9, Psalm 51:10). That’s how you tell the difference. The Spirit brings clarity, not just guilt. He points to Christ and calls for surrender. A guilty conscience might say, “I messed up again,” but the Spirit says, “Repent, be cleansed, and walk in righteousness.”

So would you not think that the person you're describing might not actually be born again, but may have simply fallen into a false conversion?

That very well might be what is going on. According to the Bible, not everyone who appears repentant or emotional is actually born again. Jesus said there will be people who call Him “Lord” and even do religious things, but in the end He will say, “I never knew you” (Matthew 7:21–23). That means they were never truly saved to begin with.

A person can cry, confess sin, and talk about Jesus, but if there is no lasting change, no hunger for righteousness, and no power over sin, it’s likely a false conversion. The Bible warns about that in the parable of the sower. Some people receive the Word with joy, but because they have no root, they fall away (Luke 8:13–14). Only the one who bears fruit proves that their heart has been truly changed by God.

 

[bdavidc]

…As for the Judas issue , I choose to believe that only God can see the heart . Only The Father knows that state of the heart of Judas before his last miserable breath was taken.
Who are we to pronounce him lost or saved. We cannot know.
Only time will tell ……we can debate …but that is not knowledge ….

No, that’s not biblical. The Bible doesn’t leave Judas’ fate a mystery. Jesus said plainly, “Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?” (John 6:70). He also called Judas “the son of perdition” and said he was lost so that the Scripture would be fulfilled (John 17:12). That’s not a maybe. That’s a direct statement from the Lord.

In Acts 1:25, it says Judas “by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” That’s not heaven. It’s judgment. Judas didn’t just make a mistake, he betrayed the Son of God and never repented. Jesus even said, “It had been good for that man if he had not been born” (Matthew 26:24). That doesn’t describe someone who ended up forgiven.

So no, we don’t have to guess, wait, or debate. God already told us exactly what happened. Judas was lost, and trying to act like we can’t know is just ignoring what Scripture clearly says.

 

[bdavidc]

I don't know what you mean by "the presence of genuine faith that results in ongoing transformation by the Spirit." What constitutes "genuine faith," exactly? Where does God make our transformation by the Holy Spirit contingent upon our faith being "genuine"? And how does the Spirit transform us? What does it look like to be so transformed? What, precisely, does he do to us to change us?

I agree with you that salvation is a gracious gift of God offered to us in the Person of our Savior, Jesus Christ. When we trust in him as our Savior and submit to him as our Lord (Ro. 10:9-10), we're saved. But, as the believers at Corinth, and in the province of Galatia, and in the churches of Sardis and Laodicea demonstrate, a changed life (practically-speaking) does not necessarily follow immediately upon one's being saved. If one doesn't know how to "walk in/by the Spirit" (Ga. 5:16, 25; 6:8; Ro. 8:9-14), if one doesn't understand what it is to live the crucified life (Ro. 6:1-11; Ga. 2:20; 5:24; 6:14; Col. 2:8-15, etc.), godly transformation simply won't occur (though, fleshly counterfeits of this transformation abound in the Church).

Genuine faith, according to the Bible, is not just belief in the facts about Jesus, but personal trust in Him that results in obedience. James 2:17 says, “Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” That means real faith will always be followed by evidence. Hebrews 11 shows that those who had faith acted on it, Noah built the ark, Abraham obeyed, Moses forsook Egypt. Faith is shown to be genuine when it leads someone to trust God’s Word, follow His commands, and endure in the truth, even when it’s hard. Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me” (John 10:27).

As for the Spirit’s transforming work, Scripture makes clear that the Spirit is the one who changes us, but He works through the truth. John 17:17 says, “Sanctify them through thy truth, thy word is truth.” The Spirit uses the Word of God to convict, renew, and guide. 2 Corinthians 3:18 says we are “changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.” Romans 12:2 commands, “Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind.” That renewing happens when we receive the Word with a heart of obedience.

The transformation doesn’t depend on someone being perfectly knowledgeable, but it does require submission. Ezekiel 36:27 says, “I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes.” That is what the Spirit does, He causes the believer to desire holiness, resist sin, and grow in righteousness. This transformation may not be immediate in its fullness, but it always begins at the new birth and continues through a life of yielding. Galatians 5:22–23 describes the fruit the Spirit produces. If there is no fruit over time, there is no evidence that the person is walking in the Spirit at all.

So yes, it’s possible to be saved and immature, like the Corinthians, but the mark of true salvation is that God disciplines His children (Hebrews 12:6–8), leads them into truth (John 16:13), and continues the work He began (Philippians 1:6). If someone is never changed, never convicted, never led to grow, that person has no biblical basis for assurance of salvation.

Although I understand where you're coming from, because I know people that I so desperately want to believe are saved and heading to heaven, but they produce no fruit, and it saddens me deeply. Me wishing they are saved and telling myself they are saved still will not change the fact. So I am still trying to figure out how I can get them to come to Jesus and be born again. I continue to pray for them and plead with them.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

Jesus did

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

the one who was lost was Judas.

So, in your theology God punishes Judas for being possessed by Satan so to betray Jesus?

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

No, that’s not biblical. The Bible doesn’t leave Judas’ fate a mystery. Jesus said plainly, “Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?” (John 6:70). He also called Judas “the son of perdition” and said he was lost so that the Scripture would be fulfilled (John 17:12). That’s not a maybe. That’s a direct statement from the Lord.

In Acts 1:25, it says Judas “by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” That’s not heaven. It’s judgment. Judas didn’t just make a mistake, he betrayed the Son of God and never repented. Jesus even said, “It had been good for that man if he had not been born” (Matthew 26:24). That doesn’t describe someone who ended up forgiven.

So no, we don’t have to guess, wait, or debate. God already told us exactly what happened. Judas was lost, and trying to act like we can’t know is just ignoring what Scripture clearly says.

Perfect. "One of you is a devil." Goes with the scripture that tells us Satan entered into Judas so he would betray Jesus.

 

[Helen]

No, that’s not biblical. The Bible doesn’t leave Judas’ fate a mystery. Jesus said plainly, “Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?” (John 6:70). He also called Judas “the son of perdition” and said he was lost so that the Scripture would be fulfilled (John 17:12). That’s not a maybe. That’s a direct statement from the Lord.

In Acts 1:25, it says Judas “by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” That’s not heaven. It’s judgment. Judas didn’t just make a mistake, he betrayed the Son of God and never repented. Jesus even said, “It had been good for that man if he had not been born” (Matthew 26:24). That doesn’t describe someone who ended up forgiven.

So no, we don’t have to guess, wait, or debate. God already told us exactly what happened. Judas was lost, and trying to act like we can’t know is just ignoring what Scripture clearly says.

Sorry , I stand by what I said …Amazingly , neither YOU , or I are God !
You do NOT know what Judas’ last conversation with God was …you were not there .
Stop trying to claim that you know everything and understand the Bible perfectly .

just saying….

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

Sorry , I stand by what I said …Amazingly , neither YOU , or I are God !
You do NOT know what Judas’ last conversation with God was …you were not there .
Stop trying to claim that you know everything and understand the Bible perfectly .

just saying….

Well said.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So, in your theology God punishes Judas for being possessed by Satan so to betray Jesus?

Nope

In my truth, Judas never believed, He followed Jesus not as his savior. but because he believes Jesus was going to free him from roman rule. the moment he realised Jesus was not going to do that, he turned Jesus in.

Satan can not enter a child born of God.. so this is another reason

 

[bdavidc]

Sorry , I stand by what I said …Amazingly , neither YOU , or I are God !
You do NOT know what Judas’ last conversation with God was …you were not there .
Stop trying to claim that you know everything and understand the Bible perfectly .

just saying….

You’re completely wrong. I have never claimed to be God or to know everything, and I’ve never once said I understand the Bible perfectly. What I have said, and will keep saying, is that I can read and I believe what the Bible actually says. I’m not giving you my opinion, I’m quoting the Word of God. You’re the one ignoring clear Scripture because it doesn’t match what you want to believe. Jesus Himself said Judas was lost (John 17:12), that he was a devil (John 6:70), and that it would have been better for him not to have been born (Matthew 26:24). That is not speculation, that is divine truth. You trying to dismiss it because you think there might have been some secret last conversation that the Bible doesn’t mention is exactly the problem. You’re elevating your imagination above the Word of God. That’s not faith, that’s arrogance. You’re not smarter than what God already revealed in His Word, and your refusal to accept plain Scripture is not wisdom, it’s rebellion.

 

[Helen]

Nope

In my truth, Judas never believed, He followed Jesus not as his savior. but because he believes Jesus was going to free him from roman rule. the moment he realised Jesus was not going to do that, he turned Jesus in.

Satan can not enter a child born of God.. so this is another reason

God point , def food for thought , at least it has caused me to pause .( just a little )
And I so appreciate your “ In my truth “ .
If only more people would use “ As I see it “ , or even “ In my humble opinion “…rather than declare that they have perfect biblical understanding and therefore correct , and other are wrong.

I still sit with an open verdict on Judas …what a shock some will get if Judas is there at the end “saved as by fire “…. I don’t believe we have seen the end of the story yet.
But, I have been wrong ‘once in a while ‘

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

You’re completely wrong. I have never claimed to be God or to know everything, and I’ve never once said I understand the Bible perfectly. What I have said, and will keep saying, is that I can read and I believe what the Bible actually says. I’m not giving you my opinion, I’m quoting the Word of God. You’re the one ignoring clear Scripture because it doesn’t match what you want to believe. Jesus Himself said Judas was lost (John 17:12), that he was a devil (John 6:70), and that it would have been better for him not to have been born (Matthew 26:24). That is not speculation, that is divine truth. You trying to dismiss it because you think there might have been some secret last conversation that the Bible doesn’t mention is exactly the problem. You’re elevating your imagination above the Word of God. That’s not faith, that’s arrogance. You’re not smarter than what God already revealed in His Word, and your refusal to accept plain Scripture is not wisdom, it’s rebellion.

Where you are wrong is in claiming Jesus said Judas ,by name, was lost.

You're also claiming by your insistence on ignoring scripture that says Satan entered into Judas so he'd betray Jesus, that Jesus gave what is the first communion to one he would condemn later. As if Jesus was without knowledge of Satan entering Judas.

You're also ignoring the fact Jesus told Judas,who was then possessed,to go and do what he must do.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

It would be a real shame if individuals posting in any thread here are expected to preface their remarks with the qualifier, "in my view,opinion'', when as the author of their own post through their own account,that fact is already established.

Though it is a great distraction to claim the qualifier is necessary so to be taken at our word. When those who disagree with The Word will persist regardless.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

God point , def food for thought , at least it has caused me to pause .( just a little )
And I so appreciate your “ In my truth “ .
If only more people would use “ As I see it “ , or even “ In my humble opinion “…rather than declare that they have perfect biblical understanding and therefore correct , and other are wrong.

I still sit with an open verdict on Judas …what a shock some will get if Judas is there at the end “saved as by fire “…. I don’t believe we have seen the end of the story yet.
But, I have been wrong ‘once in a while ‘

I have been watching "the chosen" when I see Judas I almost feel sorry for him. At least until he was angry when he heard Jesus say he must die. and left in a rage.. Although he is still there (I am at the point Jesus enters on A donkey)

and yes. we should always say we see, or in our opinion. Not your wrong.. although I can get mad and make that mistake on occasion. so I am not innocent..

 

[Behold]

I’ve answered from Scripture, plainly and in context. If you're not actually here to learn or consider what the Bible says,

You cant become a Christian, unless Jesus has shed His Blood and Died for your Sins.......and then there must be the Holy Spirit Given.

So...When Jesus was performing His earthly ministry.........none of this was available..

This is why there are no Christians.....found......before Jesus Rose from the Dead, and the Holy Spirit was Given.

 

[Kokyu]

Genuine faith, according to the Bible, is not just belief in the facts about Jesus, but personal trust in Him that results in obedience. James 2:17 says, “Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” That means real faith will always be followed by evidence. Hebrews 11 shows that those who had faith acted on it, Noah built the ark, Abraham obeyed, Moses forsook Egypt. Faith is shown to be genuine when it leads someone to trust God’s Word, follow His commands, and endure in the truth, even when it’s hard. Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me” (John 10:27).

James actually explained what he meant by a "dead faith":

1.) It is faith that is alone, existing separate from corresponding works.

James 2:17
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.


2.) It is faith that is spiritually (and practically) useless.

James 2:20
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

3.) It is faith that is incomplete (or imperfect).

James 2:22
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

James doesn't say that "dead" faith is non-existent faith. He doesn't indicate that, if one's faith is "dead," it isn't actually faith, right? No, he means by "dead" only to say "alone, useless and incomplete." But this implies, it seems to me, that a Christian may have faith that doesn't always engender corresponding works. It was, after all, to fellow believers that James was writing.

As for the Spirit’s transforming work, Scripture makes clear that the Spirit is the one who changes us, but He works through the truth. John 17:17 says, “Sanctify them through thy truth, thy word is truth.” The Spirit uses the Word of God to convict, renew, and guide. 2 Corinthians 3:18 says we are “changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.” Romans 12:2 commands, “Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind.” That renewing happens when we receive the Word with a heart of obedience.

Can one be transformed by the Spirit without the word of God? Is the Spirit hamstrung in his ability to change a person if they don't have access to Scripture? Does the word of God have its own transformative power, separate from the Holy Spirit? I ask because I've encountered atheists and Muslims who know the Bible and the doctrines of the Christian faith far better than the average Christian in North America does. I've also met many Christian men who knew Scripture pretty well who were in bondage to various addictions (mostly. to porn). What of the Spirit working through Scripture in their lives?

Just before Paul wrote in Romans 12:2 of renewing the mind, he wrote of something else, something that must precede, and is essential to, being renewed in one's mind as they study God's word. Without Romans 12:1 being the case in our lives, Romans 12:2 can't properly happen, I believe.

The transformation doesn’t depend on someone being perfectly knowledgeable, but it does require submission. Ezekiel 36:27 says, “I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes.” That is what the Spirit does, He causes the believer to desire holiness, resist sin, and grow in righteousness. This transformation may not be immediate in its fullness, but it always begins at the new birth and continues through a life of yielding. Galatians 5:22–23 describes the fruit the Spirit produces. If there is no fruit over time, there is no evidence that the person is walking in the Spirit at all.

Yes. Submission to God's will and way, to the control of the Holy Spirit, is vital to transformation by him. What does it look like, though, to be caused by the Spirit to "walk in God's statutes"? This is the question I answer most often in discipleship of Christian men.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Wow, I honestly didn’t expect to see so many people on a Christian forum defending Judas. That’s really sad. Most people wouldn’t even name their dog Judas, but it seems like some here would name their child Judas because they think he was just a misunderstood guy. That’s not just concerning, it shows how far people are willing to go to twist Scripture and excuse betrayal.

You’re saying Judas was just “carnal and religious,” but Jesus said far more than that. In John 6:70, Jesus said, “Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?” Verse 71 makes it crystal clear He was talking about Judas Iscariot. That’s not symbolic language, that’s Jesus stating exactly what Judas was. Luke 22:3 says, “Then entered Satan into Judas.” The Bible doesn’t say Judas was just deceived or confused, it says he was indwelt by Satan and used as a willing tool to betray the Son of God.

And the claim that “no one knew Jesus was the Christ until He went to Heaven” is simply false. Peter said in Matthew 16:16, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus confirmed that Peter’s confession came from the Father, not man. Nathanael said in John 1:49, “Thou art the Son of God.” The woman at the well believed He was the Messiah (John 4:29). So yes, people knew, because God revealed it to them. Judas never had that revelation because he never truly believed. Jesus said, “There are some of you that believe not,” and He was speaking about Judas (John 6:64).

Trying to downplay Judas’s guilt by blaming the religious leaders or saying he was just carnal doesn’t line up with what Jesus said. Judas made a choice. He walked with Christ, saw His miracles, heard His teaching, and still betrayed Him. And Jesus said it would have been better for that man if he had never been born (Mark 14:21). That is not said about a saved man or someone who was just confused. That’s the final word on Judas.

I’m not going to pretend Judas was misunderstood when the Bible says he was lost. Let Scripture speak, not opinions.

I thought that Judas was only just like anyone who is not Born again ?

As the fact is, Who does this world serve ?

Religion only can go so far ? As Moses said who would come ? as it was not for him.

Yes Peter is say, but the scales clearly fell from their eyes when Jesus ? remember he was not the Christ Jesus in fact untill he went to Heaven in fact ! Big diffrence in fact !

Fact is it's not all about Jesus in the flesh ! Christ Jesus is The Holy Spirit in fact ! Not to mention no on can come to the Father but throught his only begotten Son !
Now how can one come to such ? unless one is truly born again ?

They were only Jews ! up to the Time Jesus was in Haven, Then they became the first Christians, because they got the Holy Spirit within them in fact !

It would be better if one was never born, because they are Lost ! One has to be found ! that is The Way ! other than that, what a poor person, who has not Grace.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

James actually explained what he meant by a "dead faith":

1.) It is faith that is alone, existing separate from corresponding works.

James 2:17
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.


2.) It is faith that is spiritually (and practically) useless.

James 2:20
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

3.) It is faith that is incomplete (or imperfect).

James 2:22
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

James doesn't say that "dead" faith is non-existent faith. He doesn't indicate that, if one's faith is "dead," it isn't actually faith, right? No, he means by "dead" only to say "alone, useless and incomplete." But this implies, it seems to me, that a Christian may have faith that doesn't always engender corresponding works. It was, after all, to fellow believers that James was writing.

this is not true

that's why he started out asking the question. Can this faith save them.

the answer is no.

true faith saves, and true faith works. (eph 2: 8 - 10)

lack of works is evidence there was never any faith

Can one be transformed by the Spirit without the word of God? Is the Spirit hamstrung in his ability to change a person if they don't have access to Scripture? Does the word of God have its own transformative power, separate from the Holy Spirit? I ask because I've encountered atheists and Muslims who know the Bible and the doctrines of the Christian faith far better than the average Christian in North America does. I've also met many Christian men who knew Scripture pretty well who were in bondage to various addictions (mostly. to porn). What of the Spirit working through Scripture in their lives?

Just before Paul wrote in Romans 12:2 of renewing the mind, he wrote of something else, something that must precede, and is essential to, being renewed in one's mind as they study God's word. Without Romans 12:1 being the case in our lives, Romans 12:2 can't properly happen, I believe.

even of more importance is the fact that these men are born of God. They have been born again, Given the HS.

if this has not happened. Romans 12: 1 or 12: 2 have no possibility of happening

Yes. Submission to God's will and way, to the control of the Holy Spirit, is vital to transformation by him. What does it look like, though, to be caused by the Spirit to "walk in God's statutes"? This is the question I answer most often in discipleship of Christian men.

to become like Christ.

It becomes less submission and more desire..

if we keep obeying just because we put ourselves in submission, we will eventually grow weary.

I learned in my discipleship it is our desire to be like God. because we trust and have faith in him, that helps us grow.. and when we fail. (and we will in different parts) helps keeps us from giving up

 

[Kokyu]

this is not true

that's why he started out asking the question. Can this faith save them.

the answer is no.

true faith saves, and true faith works. (eph 2: 8 - 10)

lack of works is evidence there was never any faith

Simply denying what I showed from the words of the apostle James himself doesn't change or negate what he wrote.

James 2:14
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Where in this verse does James write "faith alone doesn't save you"? Nowhere. He asks a couple of rhetorical questions and then answers them in the manner I pointed out, stating that "dead" faith is faith that is alone, useless and incomplete. What's James's answer to his own questions, then? That faith exists without works but that faith is only properly complete and of use when it is expressed in corresponding action.

So, your flat denial of what James clearly and plainly wrote does nothing, as far as I can see, to effectively rebut his words.

Faith does not save. Faith simply puts a person in position to be saved by the Savior. Look at it this way: If you have a cavity and your tooth is killing you and you want the pain to stop, you go to your dentist for a filling. Before you do that, though, you have to believe your dentist can actually fix your tooth, right? Why would you go to him if you didn't trust that he could do something useful about your cavity? So, believing your dentist can repair your bad tooth, you go to his office and sit in his dental chair. Does this take away your pain or fix your tooth? Has having had faith in your dentist and sitting in his dental chair healed your tooth? No. You could have intense, unshakeable faith in your dentist and sit in his dental chair for weeks, or months, or years and never have your tooth repaired. Only when your dentist shows up and actually does his dental work on your tooth does your tooth get fixed. And when he goes to work on your tooth, all you can do is receive his work. You just lay back in his chair and let him go to work on your rotten tooth; you can't help drill out your cavity, or apply filling, or do anything to contribute to the tooth-fixing work your dentist does.

In the same way, trusting in Jesus to fix your sin-sickness, to save you from your own wicked heart and God's wrathful judgment, and going to him in prayer to be saved doesn't do anything to actually save you. Just like your dentist fixes your bad tooth without any help from you, Jesus saves you, without any contribution from you. See Acts 4:12, 1 Timothy 2:5-6, John 14:6.

even of more importance is the fact that these men are born of God. They have been born again, Given the HS.

if this has not happened. Romans 12: 1 or 12: 2 have no possibility of happening

Yes, of course. Romans 12:1-2 was written to born-again people.

to become like Christ.

It becomes less submission and more desire..

if we keep obeying just because we put ourselves in submission, we will eventually grow weary.

I learned in my discipleship it is our desire to be like God. because we trust and have faith in him, that helps us grow.. and when we fail. (and we will in different parts) helps keeps us from giving up

Like so many who've tried to answer my questions, you do so by describing the effects of the life and work of the Spirit in a Christian person. These effects can be counterfeited - superficially - by the work of the flesh, however. What I was actually asking was what exactly the Spirit does, and how he does it, in the born-again person that produces Christ-likeness and a desire for God? How do you know when it's the Spirit who is producing these things in you and not just your own fleshly effort? The Bible tells us what distinguishes the Spirit's work in us from our own fleshly effort to produce what he does. Do you know what the Bible indicates are the differences?

Where does God say in His word our desire for, and trust in, Him come from? Ourselves? Do we have to muster up from within our own human resources what God wants from us? This isn't what the Bible says, right?