A Warning to All Who Pretend to Follow Christ

[Eternally Grateful]

Simply denying what I showed from the words of the apostle James himself doesn't change or negate what he wrote.

James 2:14
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Where in this verse does James write "faith alone doesn't save you"? Nowhere. He asks a couple of rhetorical questions and then answers them in the manner I pointed out, stating that "dead" faith is faith that is alone, useless and incomplete. What's James's answer to his own questions, then? That faith exists without works but that faith is only properly complete and of use when it is expressed in corresponding action.

So, your flat denial of what James clearly and plainly wrote does nothing, as far as I can see, to effectively rebut his words.

I have not denied anything that James wrote

Faith does not save.

We are saved by Grace through faith.

no faith. no salvation.

Faith simply puts a person in position to be saved by the Savior. Look at it this way: If you have a cavity and your tooth is killing you and you want the pain to stop, you go to your dentist for a filling. Before you do that, though, you have to believe your dentist can actually fix your tooth, right? Why would you go to him if you didn't trust that he could do something useful about your cavity? So, believing your dentist can repair your bad tooth, you go to his office and sit in his dental chair. Does this take away your pain or fix your tooth? Has having had faith in your dentist and sitting in his dental chair healed your tooth? No. You could have intense, unshakeable faith in your dentist and sit in his dental chair for weeks, or months, or years and never have your tooth repaired. Only when your dentist shows up and actually does his dental work on your tooth does your tooth get fixed. And when he goes to work on your tooth, all you can do is receive his work. You just lay back in his chair and let him go to work on your rotten tooth; you can't help drill out your cavity, or apply filling, or do anything to contribute to the tooth-fixing work your dentist does.

for by grace I have been saved THROUGH FAITH. and not of myself. it was the work of God. Not of works lest I should boast.

For I am his workmanship. created in Christ Jesus for good works..

In the same way, trusting in Jesus to fix your sin-sickness, to save you from your own wicked heart and God's wrathful judgment, and going to him in prayer to be saved doesn't do anything to actually save you. Just like your dentist fixes your bad tooth without any help from you, Jesus saves you, without any contribution from you. See Acts 4:12, 1 Timothy 2:5-6, John 14:6.

Yes. He saved me when I became like the tax collector and feel to my knees.

Not by works of righteousness, which I have done, but by his mercy he saved me

Yes, of course. Romans 12:1-2 was written to born-again people.

yes. so if your not born again, you can not do them

Like so many who've tried to answer my questions, you do so by describing the effects of the life and work of the Spirit in a Christian person.

Lets talk about sanctification or christian growth, i will be happy to.

But lets get salvation down first.

if you do not get that part down right. non of the rest matters

These effects can be counterfeited - superficially - by the work of the flesh, however. What I was actually asking was what exactly the Spirit does, and how he does it, in the born-again person that produces Christ-likeness and a desire for God? How do you know when it's the Spirit who is producing these things in you and not just your own fleshly effort? The Bible tells us what distinguishes the Spirit's work in us from our own fleshly effort to produce what he does. Do you know what the Bible indicates are the differences?

I am worried about how we get saved eternally first.

Hebrews said by one sacrifice he perfected forever. those being sanctified.

do you believe you are perfected forever in christ. and now being sanctified?

Where does God say in His word our desire for, and trust in, Him come from? Ourselves? Do we have to muster up from within our own human resources what God wants from us? This isn't what the Bible says, right?

lets get back to the topic.

Did James teach salvation by works.. or did he teach that those who do not have faith have never been saved because they have not yet repented?

 

[Kokyu]

We are saved by Grace through faith.

no faith. no salvation.

Yes, faith is necessary to salvation but it is not the means of salvation. See my dentist example. Or consider a "life-ring" thrown to a drowning man. Does his belief that it will keep him afloat make the ring capable of doing so? No. He reaches for it believing it will save him, but it is the ring that saves him by keeping him afloat, not the man's belief that it will. No matter how much the drowning man might believe the life-ring will save him, if he doesn't reach out and grab it and let the life-ring bear his weight, he will drown.

for by grace I have been saved THROUGH FAITH. and not of myself. it was the work of God. Not of works lest I should boast.

For I am his workmanship. created in Christ Jesus for good works..

How is this a thoughtful response to what I pointed out? It's just parroting what you think you know, not considering my remarks and engaging reasonably with them. Do you understand that your faith doesn't save you? Do you understand that you can only receive salvation, not contribute to it?

In any case, I've never indicated that faith has no part in one's salvation. It just isn't salvific. There is only one Savior and you ain't him (Acts 4:12).

Yes. He saved me when I became like the tax collector and feel to my knees.

And your point is? Your dentist fixes your tooth only when you've trusted that he can and have put yourself in his dentist chair. But does your doing these things actually fix your tooth? No. Only the dentist does this; you just receive what he does to your tooth. So, too, with Jesus our Savior. Nothing you do in moving toward him for salvation is what saves you. He alone saves. You can only receive his saving work. The moment you start to position yourself in some contributing way to what Jesus does as your Savior, you make yourself a co-Savior with Christ, which is blasphemy.

Acts 4:12
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Titus 3:5-7
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

yes. so if your not born again, you can not do them

Right.

Lets talk about sanctification or christian growth, i will be happy to.

But lets get salvation down first.

if you do not get that part down right. non of the rest matters

??? I think you're the one who has yet to "get salvation down." You seem to think you can contribute somehow to your salvation, which you absolutely don't (and cannot). See above.

I am worried about how we get saved eternally first.

Hebrews said by one sacrifice he perfected forever. those being sanctified.

do you believe you are perfected forever in christ. and now being sanctified?

I believe what Scripture says, yes. It says I am fully redeemed, justified and sanctified by Christ (1 Co. 1:30) and am "clothed" in him and thus made forever acceptable to God (Ro. 13:14; Ga. 3:27; Eph. 1:6). Spiritual growth, as I hope you understand, is the aligning of one's practical, mundane condition with one's spiritual position in Jesus Christ. As the two more and more align, one can say one is more and more like Jesus and thus more spiritually mature. This sanctification of one's condition is a work of the Holy Spirit, however, that he works in to the believer so that they can they then "work it out." See Philippians 2:12-13.

lets get back to the topic.

This is very much on the topic. If you don't understand this, you've not understood yet what it is to actually walk with God.

Did James teach salvation by works.. or did he teach that those who do not have faith have never been saved because they have not yet repented?

Asked and thoroughly answered.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, faith is necessary to salvation but it is not the means of salvation. See my dentist example. Or consider a "life-ring" thrown to a drowning man. Does his belief that it will keep him afloat make the ring capable of doing so? No. He reaches for it believing it will save him, but it is the ring that saves him by keeping him afloat, not the man's belief that it will. No matter how much the drowning man might believe the life-ring will save him, if he doesn't reach out and grab it and let the life-ring bear his weight, he will drown.

Mt belief was in God.

in faith I called out to him

If I do not repent. I will remain condemned

How is this a thoughtful response to what I pointed out? It's just parroting what you think you know, not considering my remarks and engaging reasonably with them. Do you understand that your faith doesn't save you? Do you understand that you can only receive salvation, not contribute to it?

Do you understand this is what I have been saying all along>

In any case, I've never indicated that faith has no part in one's salvation. It just isn't salvific. There is only one Savior and you ain't him (Acts 4:12).

I never claimed to be. Thats quite rude

And your point is? Your dentist fixes your tooth only when you've trusted that he can and have put yourself in his dentist chair. But does your doing these things actually fix your tooth? No. Only the dentist does this; you just receive what he does to your tooth. So, too, with Jesus our Savior. Nothing you do in moving toward him for salvation is what saves you. He alone saves. You can only receive his saving work. The moment you start to position yourself in some contributing way to what Jesus does as your Savior, you make yourself a co-Savior with Christ, which is blasphemy.

Acts 4:12
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Titus 3:5-7
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I am at the point I am not sure what point your trying to make

Right.

??? I think you're the one who has yet to "get salvation down." You seem to think you can contribute somehow to your salvation, which you absolutely don't (and cannot). See above.

I never stated any such thing.

I believe what Scripture says, yes. It says I am fully redeemed, justified and sanctified by Christ (1 Co. 1:30) and am "clothed" in him and thus made forever acceptable to God (Ro. 13:14; Ga. 3:27; Eph. 1:6). Spiritual growth, as I hope you understand, is the aligning of one's practical, mundane condition with one's spiritual position in Jesus Christ. As the two more and more align, one can say one is more and more like Jesus and thus more spiritually mature. This sanctification of one's condition is a work of the Holy Spirit, however, that he works in to the believer so that they can they then "work it out." See Philippians 2:12-13.

here we go again, we are talking about James. and james saying that a dead faith can not save,.

This is very much on the topic. If you don't understand this, you've not understood yet what it is to actually walk with God.

we are discussing your comment on James

Asked and thoroughly answered.

I believe you are saying no .

but you still appear to argue James was not speaking against a dead faith that can not saved, verses a living faith that can save..

are you arguing from a legalist viewpoint or a calvinist? or your own?

 

[bdavidc]

I thought that Judas was only just like anyone who is not Born again ?

As the fact is, Who does this world serve ?

Religion only can go so far ? As Moses said who would come ? as it was not for him.

Yes Peter is say, but the scales clearly fell from their eyes when Jesus ? remember he was not the Christ Jesus in fact untill he went to Heaven in fact ! Big diffrence in fact !

Fact is it's not all about Jesus in the flesh ! Christ Jesus is The Holy Spirit in fact ! Not to mention no on can come to the Father but throught his only begotten Son !
Now how can one come to such ? unless one is truly born again ?

They were only Jews ! up to the Time Jesus was in Haven, Then they became the first Christians, because they got the Holy Spirit within them in fact !

It would be better if one was never born, because they are Lost ! One has to be found ! that is The Way ! other than that, what a poor person, who has not Grace.

What you’re saying is confusing and not biblical. Let’s stick to what the Bible actually says.

First, Judas wasn’t just some lost guy who needed to be born again. Jesus called him “a devil” (John 6:70) and “the son of perdition” (John 17:12). Jesus even said “It had been good for that man if he had not been born” (Matthew 26:24). That means Judas went to hell. He wasn’t innocent, he betrayed Jesus and was condemned.

Second, Jesus didn’t become the Christ after going to heaven. He was already the Christ when He was born (Luke 2:11). Peter said “You are the Christ” long before the cross (Matthew 16:16). Even demons called Him the Christ (Luke 4:41). Saying He became the Christ later is false.

Third, Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. That’s false. Jesus said the Father would send another Comforter after He left (John 14:16–17). That means they are two different persons. The Holy Spirit is not Jesus, and Jesus is not the Father. The Bible shows them as separate and real.

Yes, no one can come to God except through Jesus (John 14:6), and yes, people must be born again (John 3:3). But when you start mixing truth with random ideas, it confuses people and leads them into error.

You also said the disciples were “just Jews” until Jesus went to heaven. That’s not true either. They believed in Jesus before He went to heaven (John 16:30, John 20:28). They were saved by faith. The word “Christian” came later, but their salvation started when they believed.

And saying “it would be better if one was never born” as if that’s true for all lost people is wrong. That was said about Judas, not everyone (Matthew 26:24).

So if you want to talk Bible, then talk Bible. Don’t mix it with vague ideas or made-up theology. Test everything by the Word of God (1 Thessalonians 5:21). If it’s not in the Bible, it’s not the truth.

 

[PS95]

James actually explained what he meant by a "dead faith":

1.) It is faith that is alone, existing separate from corresponding works.

James 2:17
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.


2.) It is faith that is spiritually (and practically) useless.

James 2:20
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

3.) It is faith that is incomplete (or imperfect).

James 2:22
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

James doesn't say that "dead" faith is non-existent faith. He doesn't indicate that, if one's faith is "dead," it isn't actually faith, right? No, he means by "dead" only to say "alone, useless and incomplete." But this implies, it seems to me, that a Christian may have faith that doesn't always engender corresponding works. It was, after all, to fellow believers that James was writing.



Can one be transformed by the Spirit without the word of God? Is the Spirit hamstrung in his ability to change a person if they don't have access to Scripture? Does the word of God have its own transformative power, separate from the Holy Spirit? I ask because I've encountered atheists and Muslims who know the Bible and the doctrines of the Christian faith far better than the average Christian in North America does. I've also met many Christian men who knew Scripture pretty well who were in bondage to various addictions (mostly. to porn). What of the Spirit working through Scripture in their lives?

Just before Paul wrote in Romans 12:2 of renewing the mind, he wrote of something else, something that must precede, and is essential to, being renewed in one's mind as they study God's word. Without Romans 12:1 being the case in our lives, Romans 12:2 can't properly happen, I believe.



Yes. Submission to God's will and way, to the control of the Holy Spirit, is vital to transformation by him. What does it look like, though, to be caused by the Spirit to "walk in God's statutes"? This is the question I answer most often in discipleship of Christian men.

Hi Kokyu! Welcome to the forum. I've read some but not all that you've written on this thread. Wow you ask a lot of questions! I only have one question if you don't mind me asking you.
When you first believed what was it that you believed exactly?

 

[Kokyu]

here we go again, we are talking about James. and james saying that a dead faith can not save,.

But as I pointed out, James never actually says this. This is your addition to his words. Instead, James tells us exactly what he meant by "dead" and it isn't "a faith that cannot save." He wouldn't say this since faith is not what saves you; faith in Christ merely positions you to be saved by him.

If you say that your faith must have corresponding works in order for you to be saved, then you are saying, whether or not you realize it, that your works save you. This extends necessarily from the idea that your faith must have works in order for you to be saved. This is why I've been stressing in my replies to you that your faith has no salvific power whatever.

I believe you are saying no .

but you still appear to argue James was not speaking against a dead faith that can not saved, verses a living faith that can save..

See? Right here you speak of a faith that saves. But as I've explained, your faith has no power to save you. There is only one Savior, as I said (my apologies, by the way, for making that point in a manner that offended you).

are you arguing from a legalist viewpoint or a calvinist? or your own?

Simply look again at my posts and you will see that my claims are always anchored in the text of God's word, not in a legalistic or Calvinist perspective.

 

[Kokyu]

Hi Kokyu! Welcome to the forum. I've read some but not all that you've written on this thread. Wow you ask a lot of questions! I only have one question if you don't mind me asking you.
When you first believed what was it that you believed exactly?

Hello, PS95. Thanks for the welcome.

I do ask many questions, yes. It comes from being a discipler of men for the past thirty years.

What did I believe when I first trusted in Christ as my Savior? The Gospel. I was saved at eight years of age (I'm just shy of sixty, now) and remember being given the "Roman Road" version of it: Romans 3:23; 6:23; 5:6-10; 10:9-10. My understanding of the Gospel is, of course, much deeper and fuller now than when I first believed. And you?

 

[PS95]

Hello, PS95. Thanks for the welcome.

I do ask many questions, yes. It comes from being a discipler of men for the past thirty years.

What did I believe when I first trusted in Christ as my Savior? The Gospel. I was saved at eight years of age (I'm just shy of sixty, now) and remember being given the "Roman Road" version of it: Romans 3:23; 6:23; 5:6-10; 10:9-10. My understanding of the Gospel is, of course, much deeper and fuller now than when I first believed. And you?

Yep- I am familiar with the Romans road, but that doesn't really answer my Q, since those aren't your words. Can you express it to me in your own words?

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

What you’re saying is confusing and not biblical. Let’s stick to what the Bible actually says.

First, Judas wasn’t just some lost guy who needed to be born again. Jesus called him “a devil” (John 6:70) and “the son of perdition” (John 17:12). Jesus even said “It had been good for that man if he had not been born” (Matthew 26:24). That means Judas went to hell. He wasn’t innocent, he betrayed Jesus and was condemned.

Second, Jesus didn’t become the Christ after going to heaven. He was already the Christ when He was born (Luke 2:11). Peter said “You are the Christ” long before the cross (Matthew 16:16). Even demons called Him the Christ (Luke 4:41). Saying He became the Christ later is false.

Third, Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. That’s false. Jesus said the Father would send another Comforter after He left (John 14:16–17). That means they are two different persons. The Holy Spirit is not Jesus, and Jesus is not the Father. The Bible shows them as separate and real.

Yes, no one can come to God except through Jesus (John 14:6), and yes, people must be born again (John 3:3). But when you start mixing truth with random ideas, it confuses people and leads them into error.

You also said the disciples were “just Jews” until Jesus went to heaven. That’s not true either. They believed in Jesus before He went to heaven (John 16:30, John 20:28). They were saved by faith. The word “Christian” came later, but their salvation started when they believed.

And saying “it would be better if one was never born” as if that’s true for all lost people is wrong. That was said about Judas, not everyone (Matthew 26:24).

So if you want to talk Bible, then talk Bible. Don’t mix it with vague ideas or made-up theology. Test everything by the Word of God (1 Thessalonians 5:21). If it’s not in the Bible, it’s not the truth.

All who are not born again are of this world = of the Devil ! you are owned inslaved by such ! that's why you are called out !

As far as Man is conserned ? understand that ! that they did not truly know, did they ! untill Jesus went to Heaven in fact !
Yes you are correct the Christ was Jesus, but the Holy Spirit is what gives one understanding, Moses did not have the Holy Spirit, he served God as far as one could untill Jesus became the Christ Jesus in the eyes of people who were Saved, Seen the Light ! yes it's a Fact as to who Jesus truly is. Now they had faith that he was before, but did not truly understand untill they got the Gift !

No Gift was given untill after Jesus was killed by Mans works in fact buddy ! Such was a working of the Devil and the Devil was in the detail and exposed ! It exposed Mans works are delusional and under deceptions ? the Holy Spirit proves Carnal man is Lost ! who is the comforter ? The Holy Spirit !
The Holy Spirit is Christ Jesus as both are of the Father in fact !

Clearly You are only reading off the Bible and do not understand the issues above such, looking down on the whole subject as a whole. you have vague understanding.

The Jews who followed Jesus were not Saved at all, they were only Jews who had faith in Moses and that's why they had faith that Jesus may be the Christ ! but not 100% sure because the fact had not been revield to them yet did it buster ! Mat 24:33-35.
Some had more faith that other Jews as well buster !
Remember Nathaniel turned around to Jesus and said such because he was blowen away, thinking directly you must be such ? but Jesus said to Nathaniel, what he would see ! get that buster ! and what would Nathaniel see ? do you even know or understand what Jesus was saying to him ! It's for everyone that's the Key and Jesus said that Nathaniel will see it ! why, well because he had what is needed, He was a real true worthy Israel, he was a Servant of God in fact ! not just some average Jo Blow Jew.

Untill the Gift was given, they were only looking at a man ! The Power is not in a Man, but of the Holy Spirit in fact ! Jesus said so, not all will believe in a man and Jesus said that's ok, but no one in regards the Holy Spirt, is it forgiven to such.

We see that Jesus is the Christ and that he is 3 in one ? now no one can seperate the fact that they are as ONE ! but 3 different identitys in ONE ! so any carnal religious fool can not pull such apart in fact, because if you take out Jesus or Christ Jesus you do not have the Holy Spirit ! and with out Christ Jesus you do not have the Father.

Jesus is a Saviour, Salvation it's self.

but Christ Jesus is ones Lord ? see their is a big difference buddy !

The Holy Spirit is the Gift and who gave it ? Christ Jesus did ! not Jesus !

Believing in Jesus ( Salvation ) is just the start not the the ends ! for you need the Faith that can move Mountains ! get that buddy ?

Bibles says oh you of little faith ? that's not a good thing ? it's a start, but you need more understanding to have solid faith that will move mountains !

Only an idiot Jew or religious fool or carnal idiot would put Jesus on his own and then The Holy Spirit on it's own and then the Father on his own ! as if they have no bonds ! seriously ! They are all of the same Well so to speek ! You would then have a hard time of uniting anyone to the Body of christ then, seriously in fact ! much like the Jew who thinks a god works for them ? or some stupid so called Christians believe in gods.

 

[Kokyu]

Yep- I am familiar with the Romans road, but that doesn't really answer my Q, since those aren't your words. Can you express it to me in your own words?

Should my words differ from the Gospel declared to me in God's word? I don't think so... In any case, I have no difference to assert, no unique phrasing of the Gospel that I would set forth. I accept the Gospel as it is in the verses I cited to you. How about you? What did you "first believe" concerning salvation?

 

[PS95]

Should my words differ from the Gospel declared to me in God's word? I don't think so... In any case, I have no difference to assert, no unique phrasing of the Gospel that I would set forth. I accept the Gospel as it is in the verses I cited to you. How about you? What did you "first believe" concerning salvation?

I think that you misunderstood me. I wasn't asking you to see if you would differ from the scriptures. I'm just asking if you would explain it in your own words for us. I'm not forcing you I just asked if you would.

 

[Kokyu]

I think that you misunderstood me. I wasn't asking you to see if you would differ from the scriptures. I'm just asking if you would explain it in your own words for us. I'm not forcing you I just asked if you would.

When I share the Gospel with folks in-person, my usual approach is either to quote Scripture pertaining to the Gospel to them, or take them to a Bible and show them in it the same verses/passages I would have quoted to them and then answer their questions about it. So, I don't typically "share the Gospel" by offering my own version of it (i.e. the Gospel in my own words). And, of course, Scripture is wonderfully self-clarifying and qualifying, so, many times, in answer to questions on those verses/passages I've offered concerning the Gospel, I will refer to other verses/passages.

Obviously, you have some goal in mind in having me state the Gospel in my own words according to what I "first believed." You've not yet divulged what that purpose is, however. Will you?

As I think on it, if you like, I can post the second chapter in a Discipleship Course I've written (and used for years now) that addresses the matter of the Gospel. But before I do, are you going to answer your own question and supply a "first believed" description of the Gospel?

 

[PS95]

When I share the Gospel with folks in-person, my usual approach is either to quote Scripture pertaining to the Gospel to them, or take them to a Bible and show them in it the same verses/passages I would have quoted to them and then answer their questions about it. So, I don't typically "share the Gospel" by offering my own version of it (i.e. the Gospel in my own words). And, of course, Scripture is wonderfully self-clarifying and qualifying, so, many times, in answer to questions on those verses/passages I've offered concerning the Gospel, I will refer to other verses/passages.

I see.

Obviously, you have some goal in mind in having me state the Gospel in my own words according to what I "first believed." You've not yet divulged what that purpose is, however. Will you?

I was merely asking out of curiosity. No harm no foul if you prefer not to.

As I think on it, if you like, I can post the second chapter in a Discipleship Course I've written (and used for years now) that addresses the matter of the Gospel. But before I do, are you going to answer your own question and supply a "first believed" description of the Gospel?

No thank you on the discipleship course. Seeing you are very suspicious of my question I will just leave convo here. I don't need to answer my own question.

 

[Kokyu]

I was merely asking out of curiosity. No harm no foul if you prefer not to.

Ah. Well, I have given you an answer to your question - though not quite in the form you wanted.

I've been online for a long time (over twenty years, though not continuously, of course) and being guarded is now a reflex. Being new to this website, I'll keep that guard up with fellow posters 'til I see good reason to let it down. Nothing personal. You may be a perfectly lovely person which I hope, in time, to discover. But, until I do discover this, I'll be... wary.

When I was kid, if you asked a person their name, you did so only after first offering your own. It was impolite to demand their name while keeping yours undisclosed. I feel this way about your question about "first belief" in the Gospel. You'd encourage a fuller answer from me by first supplying your own. But if you have an objection to fielding your own question, that's fine. As you say, "no harm, no foul."