Was judas Iscariot used by Satan ??

[Hiddenthings]

As many of you would know Revelation 12 is the go-to verse to support a literal supernatural evil fallen angel. A number of issues present once you accept this red dragon is symbolic and not literal.

Assuming that it is conceded that the dragon is figurative, is the heaven of vs. 7 also figurative?

"Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back..." Rev 12:7

Yes or No?

Is the heaven of vs. 1 figurative?

"And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars."

Yes or No?

Now @David Lamb you might say "no" to v7 and "yes" to v1 for how can a literal woman be clothed with the sun and have the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars.

Asking another question - is the heaven of v1 & v7 the same heaven?

Yes or No?

So here is the problem... who decides what parameters are literal and figurative?

Conclusion

The truth of the matter is rather confronting for David as he reads this he realises all of it is figurative but what to do with this information?

Since the dragon and heaven are figurative, then the war (vs. 7) must also be figurative, since one cannot have a literal war when the locale and one of the combatants are figurative.

Without the keys to unlock the symbology how can anyone truly understand the meaning of this chapter?

What do you do?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I think we are being repetitive. You are not going to convince me that the devil is not a supernatural being, and I doubt I can convince you that he is, so I am leaving this thread now.

Sometimes these beings are trying to run psyops on Christian discussion forums in their ongoing efforts to deceive believers which is obviously what is going on here.

Nothing to be concerned about as it's really pretty funny actually.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Sometimes these beings are trying to run psyops on Christian discussion forums in their ongoing efforts to deceive believers which is obviously what is going on here.

Nothing to be concerned about as it's really pretty funny actually.

David chose to withdraw because he recognised the way the conversation was turning-and it wasn’t in his favor. His approach hasn’t been entirely honest. As for you, your responses remind me of a user from another forum who went by the name "ducky." He often posted disruptive comments, possibly because he lacked a solid understanding of the topics being discussed. Instead of contributing meaningfully, he resorted to misrepresenting others' posts, making personal attacks, and generally causing frustration in the threads. Are you perhaps the same person? In the end, it's always underwhelming to read your posts. If this changes, I'll let you know.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Probably because they are well versed in theology rather than the Bible….

Who was the “serpent” in Eden? He is not clearly identified except as “the adversary” in the Hebrew Scriptures, but he is clearly identified in Revelation 12:7-9….

”And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.“ (NASB)

This dragon has “angels” who belong to him….and they now roam the earth looking for people like you who insist that they don't exist…for what purpose do they exist in the first place? Was their interference planned? Or is everything that takes place in the present situation the result of the exercise of free will….by God’s permission?

You might want to read my interaction with David post #341 is where it landed - you will see why David exited the stage. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how you interpret Rev 12.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

The claim satan and devils are not real is all a clown show anyway

All those who refuse to accept what Jesus says on any topic will end up in a place they didn't expect to be

 

[David Lamb]

This is what happens when one begins to recognise the figurative nature of the passage and in that instance you've lost your anchor verse. Once that anchor is set aside, we can explore the rest of Revelation 12 and uncover even more evidence showing just how much of the chapter cannot reasonably be taken literally.

Your retreat also sends a strong message to those still on the fence that Revelation 12 cannot be used to support your position by force of interpretation.

The word Dragon means "to look" by the way and it speaks to the political context of those who look through the eyes of the flesh. These things are doubtless hidden from you because you believe in a literal red dragon which flings stars and planets literally at the earth.

Just remember David this conversation and bring it to mind when these matters are fully revealed to you in truth.

It is certainly not my intention to send any message by retreating from the thread, apart from not wanting to prolong our arguments back and forth with you saying that Satan is not supernatural and me saying that he is. Thank you for the discussion.

 

[David Lamb]

David chose to withdraw because he recognised the way the conversation was turning-and it wasn’t in his favor. His approach hasn’t been entirely honest. As for you, your responses remind me of a user from another forum who went by the name "ducky." He often posted disruptive comments, possibly because he lacked a solid understanding of the topics being discussed. Instead of contributing meaningfully, he resorted to misrepresenting others' posts, making personal attacks, and generally causing frustration in the threads. Are you perhaps the same person? In the end, it's always underwhelming to read your posts. If this changes, I'll let you know.

That is not the reason I withdrew. I stated my reason. I gave my reason. Neither of us was convincing the other, and we were both becoming repetitive. This is a discussion forum, and I don't leave discussions just because somebody disagrees with me. I assure you I haven't been dishonest.

 

[David Lamb]

You might want to read my interaction with David post #341 is where it landed - you will see why David exited the stage. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how you interpret Rev 12.

and if you want to know why "David exited the stage," read my own posts where I gave my reasons.

 

[Hiddenthings]

It is certainly not my intention to send any message by retreating from the thread, apart from not wanting to prolong our arguments back and forth with you saying that Satan is not supernatural and me saying that he is. Thank you for the discussion.

No, this is not entirely honest David. You merely don't want to commit to the discussion because you could see your position was untenable.

 

[Hiddenthings]

and if you want to know why "David exited the stage," read my own posts where I gave my reasons.

You had a post before you which asked of you to enter the Word of God and you resisted - now be honest about this. Also, there are subsequent posts which are now unanswered.

 

[Hiddenthings]

#341 is now where this discussion has come to. Christians use Rev 12 as their only anchor for a literal evil creature however they always find its metaphoric language and rarely if ever do we see someone interpret the prophecy correctly. There are so many symbols in this chapters many are overwhelmed and back away from the study.

 

[David Lamb]

No, this is not entirely honest David. You merely don't want to commit to the discussion because you could see your position was untenable.

You cannot know what is in my heart. You may not believe that the reason I gave for leaving the discussion was true, but I say it is.

 

[David Lamb]

You had a post before you which asked of you to enter the Word of God and you resisted - now be honest about this. Also, there are subsequent posts which are now unanswered.

I did not resist entering God's word. If you think I did, quote the post where, according to you, I did so.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I did not resist entering God's word. If you think I did, quote the post where, according to you, I did so.

#338 very clear!

 

[Hiddenthings]

@David Lamb, I've seen situations where members engage with a topic only to withdraw, not because it’s repetitive, especially when the content being discussed is entirely new and hasn’t come up before. That’s why your decision to step back feels disingenuous. A more honest approach would be to simply say that the discussion is moving into areas you're not comfortable exploring. Or, I can see I'm out of my depth, or I've never looked at this before in that way.

 

[David Lamb]

#338 very clear!

Post 338 just says: "I think we are being repetitive. You are not going to convince me that the devil is not a supernatural being, and I doubt I can convince you that he is, so I am leaving this thread now." Nothing about resisting entering God's word, just my reason for leaving this thread.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Post 338 just says: "I think we are being repetitive. You are not going to convince me that the devil is not a supernatural being, and I doubt I can convince you that he is, so I am leaving this thread now." Nothing about resisting entering God's word, just my reason for leaving this thread.

First of all, there was nothing repetitive about the discussion. As for the use of a masculine personal pronoun, I don't believe that was ever clearly demonstrated (or proven) in our exchange. You haven’t shown a single identity from the various scattered references to “adversary” and “false accuser” throughout the Bible. In fact, you chose to withdraw from the very post where we began to delve into the Word of God in depth, and that post remains unanswered. What it comes down to is that you’re holding to a belief you’re unable to support with evidence.

 

[David Lamb]

First of all, there was nothing repetitive about the discussion. As for the use of a masculine personal pronoun, I don't believe that was ever clearly demonstrated (or proven) in our exchange. You haven’t shown a single identity from the various scattered references to “adversary” and “false accuser” throughout the Bible. In fact, you chose to withdraw from the very post where we began to delve into the Word of God in depth, and that post remains unanswered. What it comes down to is that you’re holding to a belief you’re unable to support with evidence.

No, I may be holding a belief which I am unable to convince you is true, but that works both ways, because you cannot convince me the the devil is not supernatural. There are plenty of Christians, probably many on this forum, who do believe as I do that Satan is supernatural. Maybe one of them can answer your questions satisfactorily.

 

[Hiddenthings]

No, I may be holding a belief which I am unable to convince you is true, but that works both ways, because you cannot convince me the the devil is not supernatural. There are plenty of Christians, probably many on this forum, who do believe as I do that Satan is supernatural. Maybe one of them can answer your questions satisfactorily.

As we're discovering, no one has been able to demonstrate the existence of this being. Considering how strongly it's spoken of and how many ideas surround it, don't you find that a bit strange?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Who is brave enough to explain Revelation 12 as being completely literal.

Is this actually what you creature looks like?