Was there a Pre-Adamite World?

[Enoch111]

2 Corinthians 13:1 1This will be my third visit to you. "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."

I have given you DOZENS OF WITNESSES in post #57. So there was no need for all these quotations. And in fact the witness of the Ten Commandments itself is more than enough.

 

[Enoch111]

The Bible is literal, yet you still defend the KJV with its proven errors due to Catholicism.

Not only are you confused about the Bible version issue (while constantly quoting the corrupt NIV), but you are very confused about the creation issue also, and don't have a leg to stand on. Read, study, memorize, believe, and apply the Ten Commandments to this issue.

 

[CoreIssue]

Not only are you confused about the Bible version issue (while constantly quoting the corrupt NIV), but you are very confused about the creation issue also, and don't have a leg to stand on. Read, study, memorize, believe, and apply the Ten Commandments to this issue.

I'm totally not confused. The reality remains you are using a Bible written in 1611 using manuscripts created in the 1500s by Catholics.

The Texus receptus. Which was used in writing the KJV, was written by ERASMUS, a Catholic.

Changing Passover to Easter, as an example, is inexcusable.

 

[Hidden In Him]

2 Thessalonians 2:15 New International Version (NIV)
15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

We, not them.

Another KJV problem.

κρατεῖτε τὰς παραδόσεις ἃς ἐδιδάχθητε = Hold fast the traditions which you were taught.
Want to debate the proper translation of παράδοση from Classical and LXX uses? The King James has it correct here.

 

[CoreIssue]

κρατεῖτε τὰς παραδόσεις ἃς ἐδιδάχθητε = Hold fast the traditions which you were taught.
Want to debate the proper translation of παράδοση from Classical and LXX uses? The King James has it correct here.

Talk to them by whom?

The King James version does not agree with other translations.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 New International Version (NIV)
15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.


2 Thessalonians 2:15 - ἄρα οὖν, ἀδελφοί,... - Interlinear Study Bible
King James Version
Therefore *, brethren, stand fast (5720), and hold (5720) the traditions which ye have been taught (5681), whether by word, or * * our epistle.
New American Standard Version
So then brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.
Holman Christian Standard Version
Therefore , brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions you were taught, either by our message or by our letter.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter a]">[a]from us.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our a]">[a]epistle.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our a]">[a]epistle.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Darby Translation (DARBY)
15 So then, brethren, stand firm, and hold fast the instructions which ye have been taught, whether by word or by our letter.
Kehillah in Thessalonika II 2:15 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
15 So then, Achim b’Moshiach, stand fast and hold fast to the [orthodox Jewish] emunah, the Moshiach’s pnimiyus hatorah that was handed over and transmitted to you, which you were taught, whether by divrei pinu (words of our mouth) or by our iggeret hakodesh.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The King James version does not agree with other translations.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 Therefore, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 New International Version (NIV)
15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.


2 Thessalonians 2:15 - ἄρα οὖν, ἀδελφοί,... - Interlinear Study Bible
King James Version
Therefore *, brethren, stand fast (5720), and hold (5720) the traditions which ye have been taught (5681), whether by word, or * * our epistle.
New American Standard Version
So then brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.
Holman Christian Standard Version
Therefore , brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions you were taught, either by our message or by our letter.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter a]">[a]from us.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our a]">[a]epistle.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our a]">[a]epistle.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Darby Translation (DARBY)
15 So then, brethren, stand firm, and hold fast the instructions which ye have been taught, whether by word or by our letter.
Kehillah in Thessalonika II 2:15 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
15 So then, Achim b’Moshiach, stand fast and hold fast to the [orthodox Jewish] emunah, the Moshiach’s pnimiyus hatorah that was handed over and transmitted to you, which you were taught, whether by divrei pinu (words of our mouth) or by our iggeret hakodesh.

?
1. You are arguing with me that other versions do not agree with the KJV, and then you give me the King James translation three times.
2. You are arguing with me that other versions do not agree with the KJV, and then you cite for me two additional translations that agree with the King James word for word.
3. The two additional translations that you provide (along with repeating the NIV) that do not agree are Darby and the OJB? Kinda going out on a limb with that last one, aren't we? LoL.

Look. Establishing the meaning of a Greek word based solely on translations, or some sort of consensus of translations, is kind of a fool's game anyway. Scholarship isn't always as accurate is would be hoped. It's why I asked if you wanted to discuss it based on usage in the LXX and/or classical. If you could make a convincing argument based on that I might buy a different translation than "tradition." But I think that's what the word means.

[Taught] to them by whom?

Taught to them by the apostles, the point being that Paul referred to the Christian doctrines to "traditions" that were being passed down to succeeding generations. By contrast, there were a number of Jewish traditional interpretations (true ones from God, and a ton of them, actually) that were passed down to the church. I would assume you know this to be true.

 

[CoreIssue]

2 Thessalonians 2:15 New International Version (NIV)
15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

?

1. You are arguing with me that other versions do not agree with the KJV, and then you give me the King James translation three times.
2. You are arguing with me that other versions do not agree with the KJV, and then you cite for me two additional translations that agree with the King James word for word.
3. The two additional translations that you provide (along with repeating the NIV) that do not agree are Darby and the OJB? Kinda going out on a limb with that last one, aren't we? LoL.

Look. Establishing the meaning of a Greek word based solely on translations, or some sort of consensus of translations, is kind of a fool's game anyway. Scholarship isn't always as accurate is would be hoped. It's why I asked if you wanted to discuss it based on usage in the LXX and/or classical. If you could make a convincing argument based on that I might buy a different translation than "tradition." But I think that's what the word means.


Taught to them by the apostles, the point being that Paul referred to the Christian doctrines to "traditions" that were being passed down to succeeding generations. By contrast, there were a number of Jewish traditional interpretations (true ones from God, and a ton of them, actually) that were passed down to the church. I would assume you know this to be true.

I said that based on what you said in response to my posting:

κρατεῖτε τὰς παραδόσεις ἃς ἐδιδάχθητε = Hold fast the traditions which you were taught.
Want to debate the proper translation of παράδοση from Classical and LXX uses? The King James has it correct here.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 Therefore, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 New International Version (NIV)
15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.[/QUOTE]

The KJV does not make it clear who passed the teachings to them.

If by Jewish teachers that is an error. If by the apostles it is not clear that is what is meant.

So at a minimum it is poorly worded and those that push Jewish traditions jump all over it.

The other translations are much clearer.

 

[Hidden In Him]

2 Thessalonians 2:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 Therefore, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 New International Version (NIV)
15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

The KJV does not make it clear who passed the teachings to them.

If by Jewish teachers that is an error. If by the apostles it is not clear that is what is meant.

So at a minimum it is poorly worded and those that push Jewish traditions jump all over it.

The other translations are much clearer.

It appears you are being maneuvered into adopting a loose translation of a verse only to defend against someone's corrupted misinterpretation and misuse of it. I don't advise you do that. The context makes it obvious enough that he was talking about their word, and their epistles. By adopting the loose NIV translation here (τὰς παραδόσεις is not even a verb), you allow a simple truth to be stolen from you, as demonstrated by this discussion we're having: The apostles understood the importance of handing down and maintaining the Christian traditions they passed on to future generations. Those who dismiss this notion lay themselves open to the enemy proposing that all tradition is untrustworthy, and therefore not to even be considered.

 

[bbyrd009]

I have given you DOZENS OF WITNESSES in post #57. So there was no need for all these quotations.

gee, two posts ago you were questioning the role of witnesses, so imo you are full of crap, fake Enoch, and I don't need to suffer you any longer. Confession leads to salvation, and it will work for you too, if you ever try it.

There is only One Immortal, Who dwells in unapproachable light
you challenged my interpretation of this v--which btw I never even gave lol--but you never replied, big surprise huh

ty for using professing themselves to be wise against me though, Enoch, that was priceless
even made the dedication page

 

[farouk]

I'm totally not confused. The reality remains you are using a Bible written in 1611 using manuscripts created in the 1500s by Catholics.

The Texus receptus. Which was used in writing the KJV, was written by ERASMUS, a Catholic.

Changing Passover to Easter, as an example, is inexcusable.

The TR text is very similar to that of the Byzantine majority of mss. All the major Reformation Bible translators used the text of Erasmus / Stephens.

 

[CoreIssue]

It appears you are being maneuvered into adopting a loose translation of a verse only to defend against someone's corrupted misinterpretation and misuse of it. I don't advise you do that. The context makes it obvious enough that he was talking about their word, and their epistles. By adopting the loose NIV translation here (τὰς παραδόσεις is not even a verb), you allow a simple truth to be stolen from you, as demonstrated by this discussion we're having: The apostles understood the importance of handing down and maintaining the Christian traditions they passed on to future generations. Those who dismiss this notion lay themselves open to the enemy proposing that all tradition is untrustworthy, and therefore not to even be considered.

That is what I thought. You are defending traditions and leaning on them similar to how Catholics depend and lean on theirs.

That is not the message here.

 

[CoreIssue]

The TR text is very similar to that of the Byzantine majority of mss. All the major Reformation Bible translators used the text of Erasmus / Stephens.

So what?

Erasmus still was a Catholic and the reformers got a lot of things wrong. Especially those like Calvin and the ones that tried to reinvent the Catholic hierarchy into a form pleasing to them.

The majority texts were the majority because that's the only ones Catholicism accepted. Most of them were written by Catholics.

 

[farouk]

So what?

Erasmus still was a Catholic and the reformers got a lot of things wrong. Especially those like Calvin and the ones that tried to reinvent the Catholic hierarchy into a form pleasing to them.

The majority texts were the majority because that's the only ones Catholicism accepted. Most of them were written by Catholics.

Not a very accurate argument; the majority Byzantine manuscripts came from the Eastern sphere; Rome had little to do with their preservation.

 

[CoreIssue]

Not a very accurate argument; the majority Byzantine manuscripts came from the Eastern sphere; Rome had little to do with their preservation.

Eastern Orthodox is still Catholicism.

Timeline of the East-West Schism of the Catholic and Orthodox Church

 

[farouk]

Eastern Orthodox is still Catholicism.

So you think historical Bible manuscripts have to come from a "church-free" zone before anyone can use Bible editions that in some way have used them? (I don't quite get your point.)

 

[CoreIssue]

So you think historical Bible manuscripts have to come from a "church-free" zone before anyone can use Bible editions that in some way have used them? (I don't quite get your point.)

My point is Catholicism scribes added to the Bible and altered it to fit their doctrines.

Easter for Passover is a clear example. As is the books of the Apocrypha.

This was not in the earliest manuscripts and I highlighted Catholic doctrine in it.

Mark 16:9-20 New International Version (NIV)
9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11 When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.

12 Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. 13 These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.

14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

Remember, Catholicism believes they created the Bible and thus their doctrines, traditions and teachings are superior.

 

[Triumph1300]

The links provided here are not connected to the Bennet Dam in BC.
They refer to other areas in British Columbia and one in Texas.

Not that it really matters. ;-)

 

[CoreIssue]

The links provided here are not connected to the Bennet Dam in BC.
They refer to other areas in British Columbia and one in Texas.

Not that it really matters. ;-)

The links provided here are not connected to the Bennet Dam in BC.
They refer to other areas in British Columbia and one in Texas.

Not that it really matters. ;-)

The so-called prints found during the construction. Comparing the pictures there amazingly similar

And the explanation of how they formed fits both.

Notice both areas are Sandy and had water that flow at least part of the time.

That is why find such as this are no longer newsworthy.

 

[Hidden In Him]

That is what I thought. You are defending traditions and leaning on them similar to how Catholics depend and lean on theirs.

I was citing Paul, correctly, and "leaning" on him. But as you wish. Doesn't bother me any.
Blessings in Christ.

 

[Taken]

Just wondering about opinions on this issue.

Link:

Pre-Adamic man: were there human beings on Earth before Adam - creation.com

A load of gobblygook;

which simply reveals the Flaw of Carnal Truth and Understanding,

Rejecting the Perfection of Gods Truth and Understanding.

I'll stick with Gods Truth and Understanding.

Glory to God,
Taken