Was wine non-alcoholic in Jesus's time?

[VictoryinJesus]

No, but it is as I said, "Alcohol is not the problem", and what Jesus clarified, saying, it is "not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”

In other words, it is what is in one's heart that defiles or condemns them, not food or drink, or swords or guns. And yes, if it is in one's heart to over drink, etc., it is perhaps not in their heart to be sober before the Lord.

You said “it is what is in ones’s heart that defiles or condemns them, not food or drink, or sword or guns.”

“Not food or drink” is this in reference to Romans 14:19-23 about the weak? Roman’s 14 begins with Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive you, but not to doubtful disputations.

You referenced it is what is in ones heart that condemns or defiles, not what goes in. what if what is in the heart is that it is wrong to drink alcohol or to own a gun. Why would one who feels also just as strongly that it is ok to drink wine or to own a gun …go into a room of those strongly against it and then be offended that they believe otherwise? I mean that is a given by their strong stance of what is in the heart and comes out of the mouth. Why try to convince them otherwise? Who is right? The ones against wine drinking and against guns that press their will on those not against wine and guns? Or is those right that drink wine and own guns that press their will on those against it? To me it is saying …neither are right …but instead Charity which seems to be not pressing where the heart is so convinced that it wrong to drink whereby if that one drinks to them, it is wrong. You may “no. You don’t get it still. It isn’t about wine or guns that defile a man.” I agree. Instead about righteousness and peace.


I lost the quote insert but I do get your point where you said: No, but it is as I said, "Alcohol is not the problem", and what Jesus clarified, saying, it is "not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”

But it could equally be in what comes out that defiles a man …destroying a brother who believes strongly it is a sin to drink wine or to own a gun?

This is what I responding to originally.
you said: Drink some wine, go buy a sword--Jesus was wrong, right?
First I couldn’t find Jesus quote of “drink some wine” in conjunction with “go buy a sword”…
The question is if Jesus said “drink some wine” was that a green light in His “drink some wine” meant exactly go pour a glass with dinner? The question was is that the wine He meant?

 

[ScottA]

You said “it is what is in ones’s heart that defiles or condemns them, not food or drink, or sword or guns.”

“Not food or drink” is this in reference to Romans 14:19-23 about the weak? Roman’s 14 begins with Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive you, but not to doubtful disputations.

You referenced it is what is in ones heart that condemns or defiles, not what goes in. what if what is in the heart is that it is wrong to drink alcohol or to own a gun. Why would one who feels also just as strongly that it is ok to drink wine or to own a gun …go into a room of those strongly against it and then be offended that they believe otherwise? I mean that is a given by their strong stance of what is in the heart and comes out of the mouth. Why try to convince them otherwise? Who is right? The ones against wine drinking and against guns that press their will on those not against wine and guns? Or is those right that drink wine and own guns that press their will on those against it? To me it is saying …neither are right …but instead Charity which seems to be not pressing where the heart is so convinced that it wrong to drink whereby if that one drinks to them, it is wrong. You may “no. You don’t get it still. It isn’t about wine or guns that defile a man.” I agree. Instead about righteousness and peace.


I lost the quote insert but I do get your point where you said: No, but it is as I said, "Alcohol is not the problem", and what Jesus clarified, saying, it is "not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”

But it could equally be in what comes out that defiles a man …destroying a brother who believes strongly it is a sin to drink wine or to own a gun?

This is what I responding to originally.
you said: Drink some wine, go buy a sword--Jesus was wrong, right?
First I couldn’t find Jesus quote of “drink some wine” in conjunction with “go buy a sword”…
The question is if Jesus said “drink some wine” was that a green light in His “drink some wine” meant exactly go pour a glass with dinner? The question was is that the wine He meant?

I was quoting:

Matthew 15:11​

Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”​

...and, yes, the principle would appropriately apply to other things done outwardly.

As for "drink some wine", that was not a Jesus quote, but a facetious comment on my part referring to the fact that Jesus himself drank wine and it was quite common and not a problem except when done in excess and if one became a drunkard.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I was quoting:

Matthew 15:11​

Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”​

...and, yes, the principle would appropriately apply to other things done outwardly.

As for "drink some wine", that was not a Jesus quote, but a facetious comment on my part referring to the fact that Jesus himself drank wine and it was quite common and not a problem except when done in excess and if one became a drunkard.

Ok I see your point. I’ve often wondered about
1 Timothy 5:22-25 and why? Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep yourself pure. [23] Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your often infirmities. [24] Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after. [25] Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

 

[Dropship]

My dad was a chronic workaholic and used to drink wine at home in the evening to ease his work-related stresses.
At first he'd be pleasant and jovial with a silly fixed grin and red sweaty face, but as the evening wore on and he continued supping, he'd fall silent and the smile was replaced by a snarl as he began glaring at us and trying to cause trouble because presumably satan had taken him over. I called it his 'Spartacus' look..

 

[VictoryinJesus]

My dad was a chronic workaholic and used to drink wine at home in the evening to ease his work-related stresses.
At first he'd be pleasant and jovial with a silly fixed grin and red sweaty face, but as the evening wore on and he continued supping, he'd fall silent and the smile was replaced by a snarl as he began glaring at us and trying to cause trouble because presumably satan had taken him over. I called it his 'Spartacus' look..

View attachment 29436

I’m sorry you experienced this with your dad. My stepfather was an alcoholic. It wasn’t wine but liquor. He was a religious man. When he drank he would get out his guitar and sing old church hymns. At first he would be funny and in a better mood than he ever was, but then transition into a sobbing drunk, then to an antagonist drunk. He would always come after all the children in the home and try to pick a fight or a scare. Even not drunk he loved and lived for getting a reaction. He loved cruel jokes, jokes on you. For the longest time, and probably even now old church hymns are hard for me to hear because I always hear then strummed in a drunken slur and shouted throughout the home. I was the youngest. Mostly, I was a bystander watching him go after the older ones. I remember fights where things like the refrigerator got knocked around by his wrestling with my brother. My step-father would hide food from my brother during a meal and tell him there wasn’t enough for him to come to the table. With me it was picking at my insecurities for example dragging me into the ocean screaming and crying when he ran up on me suddenly to take me far out. Or making me go out at night to watch his beagles train on a rabbit. The worst anticipation I’ve ever felt was the anticipation of the dogs catching the running scared rabbit. My step father loved to hear me scream. It made him laugh as if my scream and begging no, was the best joke in the world. This all he intertwined with religion and God; so that is how I learned of God and church hymns. The church my stepfather choose for us to go to was an old southern baptist church that shouted at you too, and scared the death out of you too. I remember watching a documentary on Sunday about the gates of hell and burning there. My stepfather was adored by the pastor and the church. I don’t think it was the alcohol that made him have a meanness but the alcohol brought it out to a whole new level. It heightened it to where, when the church hymns started slurring you knew it was coming.

 

[Lambano]

Alcoholism runs in my family too, on my father's side. My cousin told me with some bitterness what her father's (my uncle's) drinking did to their family life growing up. Three divorces later, his life was cut short by alcohol-related health issues. Don't know if drinking contributed to my grandfather's stroke. Never knew my great-grandfather, but daddy said he was a mean drunk. Daddy himself wouldn't touch the stuff; he'd had too many bad examples to learn from.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I was quoting:

Matthew 15:11​

Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”​

...and, yes, the principle would appropriately apply to other things done outwardly.

As for "drink some wine", that was not a Jesus quote, but a facetious comment on my part referring to the fact that Jesus himself drank wine and it was quite common and not a problem except when done in excess and if one became a drunkard.

After revising my past for a moment, it has brought up a question. To be clear I’m not going off my past and associating drinking wine with meanness. I am not claiming I haven’t ever had a glass of wine. Or that I have never had a mixed drink. Long Island ice teas are my favorite although I haven’t had one since my twenties. I just remember they taste good. Point is I’m not marching against anyone who loves a beer, or a glass of wine, or a shot.

My question is this…still. You said “facetious” because if I understood you correctly Jesus obviously shows He drank wine. I still keep asking you though was the point of His drinking wine or even “turning water into wine” ever meant for the discussion of His stance on “wine drinking”. I’m sorry but I don’t see it. To me it was His stance of drinking of the Holy Spirit. Not table manners of whether or not to have a glass.

If because of the word “wine”: or “wine with God” is translated into which side Christ “obviously” stood on during the debate of whether to have a glass of wine or to not have a glass of wine…then as “sword” is translated to “a gun” …so also “wine” is translated into “liquor” and “beer”. So yes Jesus showed His stance on “liquor” and “beer” and “guns” also by His example of “wine” and “a sword”. By this we say it is ridiculous because it is clearly obvious by His drinking (not to get drunk though) and by His carrying or packing “a weapon”. Again, I’m not enforcing it is wrong to drink wine or carry a gun. But whether or not I do or don’t …that is totally not the point. The point is …how do we take words like “wine” and “sword” and translate that into “liquor” “beer” and “a gun”? My question…still…is was that ever Jesus Christs’ ultimate point in the drinking of “wine” or in carrying “a sword” to prove where he stood on the issue as standing for it (obviously)? To be honest, I think we are missing the point to be able to prove our own point; that I don’t think was His point at all. But that is just my opinion. To me, we do that all the time. Make Jesus say what we want Him to say that backs up our argument; so we can speak with the authority of “see, even Jesus did it and spoke in support of it.” Again, not the point. (Imo) I don’t think he was talking at all about the table manners of liquor or beer or guns. But somehow it is compared as such.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Alcoholism runs in my family too, on my father's side. My cousin told me with some bitterness what her father's (my uncle's) drinking did to their family life growing up. Three divorces later, his life was cut short by alcohol-related health issues. Don't know if drinking contributed to my grandfather's stroke. Never knew my great-grandfather, but daddy said he was a mean drunk. Daddy himself wouldn't touch the stuff; he'd had too many bad examples to learn from.

I’m sorry you had to experience this also. Maybe it is in a lot of families. Drug addiction runs in our family too. Not just alcohol. A lot of escape mechanisms. I probably would struggle with drugs or alcohol except for my fear of being out of control. In some ways my fear of loss of control a blessing. In some ways a curse. After one drink …I can’t stand the stumbling or dizzy feeling of loss of control over my body. I remember in high school drinking to fit in, and as soon as some one started throwing up in the bushes (not me but seeing this), I was done. Over it instantly. That was enough for me. I can’t say I’ve ever been truly drunk because as soon as I would reach that edge, I am over it. Not because of anything except my own addiction of OCD. Same with pills, I’m terrified what they will do to my head and thinking. Too afraid to take that trip.

 

[Wrangler]

used to drink wine

presumably satan had taken him over.

My stepfather was an alcoholic.

Alcoholism runs in my family too

Sad that a Christian discussion on wine in Jesus’ time turns to substance abuse.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Sad that a Christian discussion on wine in Jesus’ time turns to substance abuse.

How so?

 

[Dropship]

..My stepfather was an alcoholic...

So was my dear old uncle Bill but at least it never made him aggressive, he was in a sleepy stupor most of the time..
His mind and body eventually packed up and he died in his 50's raving with dementia.
PS- his brother (my workaholic/semi-alcoholic dad) died in his 60's of liver cancer.
And my brother-in-law drank like a fish and smoked like a chimney, and because i've never done either he once said to me "Huh, you're not a man if you don't drink and smoke".
He died of cancer in his 60's but i'm still around.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

So was my dear old uncle Bill but at least it never made him aggressive, he was in a sleepy stupor most of the time..
His mind and body eventually packed up and he died in his 50's raving with dementia.

I’m sorry dementia is scary also. 50’s is young for dementia! I’m 53. My uncle had dementia also. He was a pastor. When he got dementia he one day took off his wedding ring where he had been married to the same woman, and hitched a ride across country to find a new wife. He had to go somewhere that monitored him around the clock after that. He wasn’t himself after.

Concerning wine some can stop at one drink. Some can’t. Same with guns I guess. In one hand it can be handled and managed properly. In another it is dangerous. I’m a poor example for my grandchildren when I tell them to not pick up that one cigarette whenever their friends say they should give it a try. Telling them they don’t know if one could turn into a lifetime of wrestling with a thing. I have a friend who could smoke one and then quit. Cigarettes are never an issue for her. She can take them, or leave them. Me not so much. That is the one that I can’t take one and that one be enough.

 

[ScottA]

After revising my past for a moment, it has brought up a question. To be clear I’m not going off my past and associating drinking wine with meanness. I am not claiming I haven’t ever had a glass of wine. Or that I have never had a mixed drink. Long Island ice teas are my favorite although I haven’t had one since my twenties. I just remember they taste good. Point is I’m not marching against anyone who loves a beer, or a glass of wine, or a shot.

My question is this…still. You said “facetious” because if I understood you correctly Jesus obviously shows He drank wine. I still keep asking you though was the point of His drinking wine or even “turning water into wine” ever meant for the discussion of His stance on “wine drinking”. I’m sorry but I don’t see it. To me it was His stance of drinking of the Holy Spirit. Not table manners of whether or not to have a glass.

If because of the word “wine”: or “wine with God” is translated into which side Christ “obviously” stood on during the debate of whether to have a glass of wine or to not have a glass of wine…then as “sword” is translated to “a gun” …so also “wine” is translated into “liquor” and “beer”. So yes Jesus showed His stance on “liquor” and “beer” and “guns” also by His example of “wine” and “a sword”. By this we say it is ridiculous because it is clearly obvious by His drinking (not to get drunk though) and by His carrying or packing “a weapon”. Again, I’m not enforcing it is wrong to drink wine or carry a gun. But whether or not I do or don’t …that is totally not the point. The point is …how do we take words like “wine” and “sword” and translate that into “liquor” “beer” and “a gun”? My question…still…is was that ever Jesus Christs’ ultimate point in the drinking of “wine” or in carrying “a sword” to prove where he stood on the issue as standing for it (obviously)? To be honest, I think we are missing the point to be able to prove our own point; that I don’t think was His point at all. But that is just my opinion. To me, we do that all the time. Make Jesus say what we want Him to say that backs up our argument; so we can speak with the authority of “see, even Jesus did it and spoke in support of it.” Again, not the point. (Imo) I don’t think he was talking at all about the table manners of liquor or beer or guns. But somehow it is compared as such.

Bravo!

Yes, we have been speaking in terms of milk rather than the meat that Jesus was referring to. It is however true in both cases. But thank you for lifting your eyes up from the mire and the things of this world, to look rather to the things of heaven and our redemption.

The Lord has given you eyes to see!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Sad that a Christian discussion on wine in Jesus’ time turns to substance abuse.

You voiced “Sad that a Christian discussion on wine in Jesus’ time turns to substance abuse”

I asked “how so”? Is it strange or odd for the discussion to bring forth common things in people? Maybe they’re not struggling with not being able to drink and walk away after one. But their impact from someone who couldn’t?
1 Corinthians 10:12-13 Wherefore let him that thinks he stand take heed lest he fall. [13] There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.

What are these temptations?

 

[ScottA]

How so?

Please don't stop! But if you are so inclined, explain rather that just as wine was not the greater issue of that day, so too substance abuse is not the greater abuse issue of today.

@Wrangler

 

[Lambano]

Sad that a Christian discussion on wine in Jesus’ time turns to substance abuse.

It's one thing to have a detached, abstract intellectual discussion about Greek words and first-century customs and Jewish traditions. Then there's the ugly reality of substance abuse in our families and communities. BOTH should be Christian concerns.

Victory kinda gave me a jolt back to reality.

 

[Wrangler]

How so?

Abuse could supersede a discussion on any topic. It’s really 2 different topics.

NEW THREAD: Disciplining children in Jesus’ time.

ABUSIFIED: Most discipline is now called child abuse. Here is my personal story …

NEW THREAD: Health care in Jesus’ time.

ABUSIFIED: Perhaps the rich got some modicum of health care in Jesus’ time, the vast majority of people got none. Here is my personal story …

 

[Wrangler]

BOTH should be Christian concerns.

I’m not suggesting what should or should not be a Christian concern. What I am pointing out is the mingling of different topics.

NEW THREAD: What bread did Jesus eat at the last supper?

ABUSIFIED: Obesity is literally at epidemic proportions in America. Here is my personal story …

 

[Lambano]

I've been through this discussion on another forum, and the major reason why people want to believe that Jesus used grape juice during the last supper is because they are very much aware of the dangers of alcohol abuse. It is not off-topic because it is behind the very question the OP asked.

My own denomination ALWAYS uses grape juice In Remembrance of Him; John Wesley was a notorious teetotaler. And I note that the Jewish source I cited regarding Passover observance allows "those (adults) who may become sick from drinking alcohol may drink grape juice". Even in celebrating the very events we're talking about, the specter of alcohol abuse is always lurking in the shadows. Now, I'm told our Catholic brethren use real wine in the Eucharist, and there's some funny jokes about priests who got into the wine before Mass. Did you hear the one about....

 

[marks]

I've been through this discussion on another forum, and the major reason why people want to believe that Jesus used grape juice during the last supper is because they are very much aware of the dangers of alcohol abuse.

My own denomination ALWAYS uses grape juice In Remembrance of Him; John Wesley was a notorious teetotaler. And I note that the Jewish source I cited regarding Passover observance allows "those (adults) whom alcohol may make sick may drink grape juice". The dark shadow of alcohol abuse is always lurking behind us.

I've noticed this also, that the question of alcohol in Jesus' day seems primarily based in people's concerns over substance abuse in the modern day.

Myself, I became alcoholic at my first time drinking when I was 14. The doctors explained to me about the different ways people metabolize sugar, and in my case, I didn't metabolize the right way. So when alcohol was introduced to my system, it was immediately recognozized as the new source of sugar, and my body began to crave it.

Much love!