Was wondering how the Horses and Riders conquer, Rev.6?

[shturt678]

It seems all the horses and riders conquer, but who or what conquers with the first rider in Rev.6:2? I take the signified view in light of Rev.1:1, "to show....he signified...". The other seals?

 

[Floyd]

It seems all the horses and riders conquer, but who or what conquers with the first rider in Rev.6:2? I take the signified view in light of Rev.1:1, "to show....he signified...". The other seals?

CHAPTER 6


[SIZE=14pt]Note:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]It needs to be repeated here that many teachers and commentators think and teach that the following events and most of Revelation applies to Israel only. Upon repeated prayerful study, that is not the view of the writers at this date (2014.) Although much of the narrative is clearly Jewish and the focal point and subject of O.T. prophecy fulfilment; and in our opinion a continuation of the O.T., Gospels and Acts, there are two major events. 1) Israel's Jacob's trouble (Jer. 30:7 2) the retribution of Jehovah God on the Gentile nations of the world, as described in Joel, and many parts of the O.T. This is for their treatment of Israel, and rejection of Christ Jesus Messiah. This seems to be subsequent to the rescue of 'remnant Israel,' but which may also have an overlapping, (Micah 5:15.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The scene here set, is the beginning of Almighty God's actions in 'power' to undo and reclaim what Satan has stolen from humankind via. Eve and Adam's will since Eden, and the 'Inheritance' that Israel lost by their rebellion against their Jehovah as witnessed in the Old Testament. For an overview of the four horsemen in this chapter, Zech. 6:1-5 gives clear understanding that these are Jehovah Zebaoth's actions, and are preparatory to all that is to follow, and that they are under His control, and not Satan's! [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]It is interesting to note that the first 6 Seals seem quickly sequential; but the seventh is separated by time and certain events, which is possibly to be the Lord's return to rescue remnant Israel (Matt. 24:29-30,) as indicated by the signs mentioned with the 6th Seal (sun, moon and stars etc.)[/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt]V.1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]seven[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] Seals,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and I heard, as it were the noise of (a)thunder, one of the four Zoa saying "come," (b)(and see.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](a) The opening of the 1st Seal marked by the noise described as thunder. This is clearly the nearest description that John can give for us to begin to understand the drama that the first Seal opening will produce. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]The import of this action is the greatest since our Lord's death on the Calvary Cross, as it is the beginning of the Lord's direct dealing with the world, which later ushers in God's rule on earth for 1000 years.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](b) 'And see,' many translations leave these words off. Dr. Bullinger was of the opinion that the word "come," should in context be 'go,' as does Charles Welch.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.2[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And I saw, and behold, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]a white horse:[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and he that sat on him had a bow; and a (a)crown was given unto him: (b)and he went forth conquering, and to overcome.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](a) Clearly the crown signifies the authority given to him. There are many and varied comments and opinions as to who this rider is. Some say the Antichrist, others the Lord Himself, but the latter is certainly wrong as it does not fit the timing or other statements on the Lord's return (second advent, see 19:11-13.) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]This verse and the following, up to and including the release of the 6th Seal by the Lamb, relate to our Lord's comments to His disciples in Matt. 24:1-51, Mark 13:1-37, and Luke 21:5-36. There the Lord relates the events leading up to His return, and they graphically show the meanings of the first six Seals when opened. As regards the opinion that this rider is the Antichrist, this also seems unlikely, these horsemen and horses from Jehovah Zebaoth[/SIZE] are [SIZE=14pt]setting up conditions on the earth [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]contrary [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]to those that have been set up by man/Anti-christ. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]They are necessary for the stage being set by Jehovah Zebaoth, and not by[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]the forces of Satan! As noted above Our Lord quoted these and other events to His Disciples giving a sequence up to His return. As is noted above and elsewhere these events are all under the control of Almighty God, and are initiated by the Lamb who is worthy, "Christ." This gives strong indication that the wrath of God against the nations is either simultaneous or overlapping with "Jacob's Trouble" on Israel. As it is assumed that "Jacob's Trouble" is under the control of Satan, the comments relating to the "Seal releases" primarily are directed at "nations." The logic behind this comment is that Jehovah Zebaoth is the instigator, with "Zebaoth" meaning all creation and peoples.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](b) "Conquering and to overcome;” this interpretation will not be accepted by the Christendom teachers and leaders; as it conflicts with the standard teaching now prevalent of “gentle Jesus,” Our Lord is of course gentle, just etc., but here is beginning the great retribution of Jehovah Zebaoth in “His Day,” and “The Lamb,” (CHRIST risen in heaven) has just released the first Seal of the Scroll, of which only “He is worthy!” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Note: Dr. Bullinger was of the opinion that this verse refers to Anti-Christ, and relates it to Matt. 24:5. Charles Welch false messiahs.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.3[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And when He opened the 2nd Seal, I heard the second Zoa say "go."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.4 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And there went out another[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]horse that was red: [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and it was given to him that sat thereon[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]to take (a)the peace from the earth,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a (b)great sword.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](a) "The peace;" this is quite remarkable, but clearly shows that in the time of the rule of man they will eventually produce [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]"the peace,"[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] a situation that as yet has never happened. For it to be achieved worldwide*, seems at present to be unlikely, but the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]"man of sin,"[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]who is yet to be made manifest, probably is the one who helps achieve this. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]It is also notable that the "peace," is reported to the[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Almighty in Zech. 1:11;[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]receiving the report that [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]"the earth is still and[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]at[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] peace." [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] It is at this point in Zech., that Jehovah Zebaoth (GOD OF ALL THE WORLD'S PEOPLES,) through the "Lamb that was slain," [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]removes that "peace,"[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] which is false, so that man's rule will be terminated, and the rule of Jehovah/Messiah will be ushered in, starting at the 1st Seal. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] It is probable/possible that this "peace" starts at the same time as "the covenant" of Dan. 9:27, which is for Israel, but spreads to the world under[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] the false messiah! (Ezk. 38:21, Jer. 25:15-33, Lev. 26:25-33, Ezk. 14:13-21.) [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](b) "Great sword;" clearly showing that warfare has returned.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Note: Dr. Bullinger relates this verse to Matt. 24:6-7.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]* Some interpreters think it applies only to the land of Israel, not the world.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt]V.5 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And when He had opened the 3rd Seal, I heard the third Zoa say, "Go." And I saw and behold a (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]black horse;[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and he that sat on him had a (b)balance in his hand.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And I heard a voice in the midst of the four Zoa say, (b)"A choenix of wheat for a denarius, and three choenix of barley for a denarius; (c)and hurt not the oil and wine."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](a) [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Black [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]in Scripture signifies famine, see Lam. 4:4-8, 5:10, Jer. 14:1-2.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](b) A "choenix" of corn was a slaves daily ration, and was an amount usually purchased for an eighth of a denarius. Therefore prices had risen 8 fold. A "denarius" was a day's wage, (Comp. page 1891.) Clearly this indicates heavy inflation and devaluing of money. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](c) It is said that oil and wine increases hunger! [/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]However, as "oil and wine" in Scripture can represent Israel, as they are derived from the Olive tree, and the Vine, it may refer to that portion of Israel which are to be saved from "The Great Tribulation," i.e. "the remnant.” If the Olive and the Vine idea is correct, it would indicate that Israel are at that stage not yet “Ammi”; (reinstated)"[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]It is again noticeable that the instructions are issued by the four Zoa, who carry the administrative responsibility for the earth. The number 4 in Scripture always relates to earth, and earth events.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Note: Dr. Bullinger relates to Matt. 24:7.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.7 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And when He opened the 4th Seal, I heard the voice of the fourth Zoa say "Go.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]" [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.8 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And I saw, and behold, a pale[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] green/livid horse,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and his name that sat on him (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Death,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Haydes[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] followed with him. And authority was given to them over the (c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]fourth[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the wild beasts of the earth.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](a) [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] "Death;" [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]straightforward symbol, heavenly authority given to the rider to kill by the methods mentioned, but are not able to kill the PSUCHE (individual life.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](b) [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]"HAYDES;"[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt] this is mistranslated HELL, See: [/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Hell; [/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt](Separate study)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]. The Greek is Hades which means grave, but by much misuse and confusion is confused with the Hell of myth and legend.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] The Bible is the onlyauthority on the subject,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] which states that in this present time (dispensation,) [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]all who truly believe in Christ when they die await His resurrection call, (1 Thess. 4:16.) [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Those that die not believing in Christ, are resurrected at the time of the Great White Throne Judgement (Rev. 20:11-15.) [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] Our Lord said to His disciples (Matt. 10:28,) "Fear not those that kill the body, but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both PSUCHE and body in GEENNA." (Lake of fire i.e. second death Rev. 20:14.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](c) [/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]"[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] ¼ of the earth" (population.) We stand at present (2014) at approx. 7.5 billion (7,000 500,000) people on earth. (The Global 2000 report to the President) [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]on an exponential basis, this population would double in 20-30 years.[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt] On the assumption that the population does double in 20 years time (2020,) and that these events of chapter 6 are then current, then from approx. 15,000,000,000 people 3,750,000,000, will die; and the pressure of death alone will be enormous, just in this 4th Seal, with much more to follow.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Note: This relates to Matt. 24:7. As of the present date (2014,) the world's population is over 7 billion! Projections vary from Think Tank to various Universities; but the pressure on all world’s resources is too great to sustain the present world population growth for many more years![/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt]V.9[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And when He opened the 5th Seal, I saw under the alter the (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Souls [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]of them that had been slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](a)[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]See comments Rev. 20:4 (b.) [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] Apps. 110 (2,) 170 (3,) and 13. There is much confusion on this [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]subject. The Babylonian/Greek myth of an enduring entity called the "soul," is now established teaching in the churches,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and works against[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Christ's sacrificial death on the Cross.[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]The Roman teaching in particular gives power to Priests and people for "purgatory" relief of "unrepentant souls," by their prayers, and "special Masses." [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]A careful study of Scripture[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]shows that the spirit of life is given and taken by Almighty God, and by Him alone.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] The spirit of life and the dust of the ground = the living soul, Gen. 2:7. The word soul is used very loosely in everyday speech, which only adds to the confusion, and applies to animals and people! (See Gen. 1:20, 2:6, same word nephesh = soul or life). In the important instances, care is needed to ascertain the actual intended meaning. In this case, the Greek "psucha," in context means the individual. However these "individuals," "have been slain for the Word of God," and they are in the[/SIZE] Tribulation Age, Matt. 24:9. There is the implication that those so affected go straight to heaven. [SIZE=14pt]In this Age, when we die, we await the resurrection of either glory with Christ, if we have[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]trusted Him for salvation and we are washed in His redeeming blood, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] or resurrection to precise judgement at the "Great White Throne," at the end of the Millennial Age, Rev. 20:11-12. In the case of the saved, in Christ's Body, and the unsaved, the spirit of life returns to the Father, Ecc. 12:7. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] In the case of the Christian (the true Christ one,) there is the implication in Scripture, that the Christ Spirit returns to Christ, Acts 7:59 & Philippians 1:23.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](Charles Ozanne writing for the Open Bible Trust (OBT), makes the following comments in his booklet ‘The Life and Soul of Mortal Man’.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]“The book of Revelation is the most Hebraic of all the New Testament books. For this reason alone, it is the last place we should expect to find a non-Hebraic use of the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]soul[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]. Elsewhere in this book, the usage of the word is fully in accord with the Old Testament idiom:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Revelation 8-9; “there died a third of the sea creatures, having [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]souls[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]” (Compare Genesis 1:30 “to everything that creeps on the earth in which there is [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]living soul[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]”)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Revelation 12:11; “they loved not their [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]souls [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]unto death”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Revelation 16:3; “every [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]living soul [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](= nephesh hayyah) died that was in the sea”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Revelation 18:13; “slaves, that is [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]souls[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]of men [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](= nephesh adam, Ezekiel 27:13)”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Revelation 18:14; “and the fruit, the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]desire of your soul [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](= awwath naphsheka, Deuteronomy 12:15, etc.)”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Revelation 20:4; “I saw the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]souls[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] of those who had been beheaded” (in resurrection).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The word “soul” is nowhere used of the spirits of the departed. All this goes to show that Revelation 6:9 is not to be taken literally. The martyred saints are represented as sacrificial victims, whose blood (or souls, Leviticus 17:14) has been poured out at the base of the alter (Leviticus 4:7). It is written of Christ that “He poured out His soul to death” (Isaiah 53:12). So the souls under the alter are the life-blood of the martyred saints poured out in a sacrificial death. In a manner totally uncharacteristic of Christian martyrs (cp. Acts 7:60), they cry out to God to avenge their blood on those who dwell upon the earth, and they are consoled by the gift of a white robe – a symbol of their righteousness and purity. They are here[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] personified [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]for our instruction. Doubtless, the closest Old Testament parallel is Genesis 4:10, where the voice of Abel’s blood is represented as crying from the ground.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.10[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And they cried with a great voice, saying, (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]"How long,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] O Lord, the Holy and the true, doest Thou not judge and (a)avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](a) Clearly not the "Church of the Mystery" (Romans 12:19) as vengeance is forbidden and they are already Raptured in our opinion. This is for later action by Jehovah, as Owner and Ruler of all the earth (Deut. 32:43.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.11[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And a (a)white robe was given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet a (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]little time,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] until their fellow servants also and their brethren,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]that are about to be killed as they had been,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] should be fulfilled.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](a) As promised in Rev. 3:4, and seen in 7:9.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](b) [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]"How long etc.;" [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]the fact that this plea/prayer [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]is a "Seal,"[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]illustrates its power and appeal to Jehovah God and The Lamb, and the force it has with them[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]for restitution. The request on a quick reading can easily get lost in the drama of the other Seals, but carries at least equal weight with God as the others. The request for vengeance on humans on earth, to the corrupted and misguided and miss-taught human race, whose values and attitudes have been shaped by [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Babylon's daughter [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]for generations, to say nothing of the false shepherds,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]seems illegal and blood thirsty. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]That is only because the Bible has[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]been ignored for so long by those that should have used it as the only source of Truth.[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]The answer to "slain souls," shows and confirms the infinite knowledge and timing of Jehovah God, in the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]"little[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]time" reply; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]white robes being given to each one. We know from Rev. 7:14-17, that these are only given to those "that came out of the Great Tribulation." [/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt]V.12[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And I saw when He opened the 6th Seal, and there came to be a great (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]earthquake/ convulsion; and the[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt](b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]sun[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]became black as sackcloth of hair, and the (c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]moon[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]became as blood.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](a) There are many who say these events are history; but they are yet future (2014), and linked to Christ Jesus' return; Hag. 2:6-9, 21-23.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](b)[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt] Sun;” [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]this event hugely significant, as the sun has been, and is the object of much pagan worship. In ancient times from Babylon onwards, the Phoenicians, Moabites, Amorites, the Israelites, Egyptians etc., to name a few have worshipped the sun under many names. [/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]These included; Baal, Chemosh, Moloch, and others. [/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Our Lord mentioned it in Matt. 24:29-30, and just before in Vs 27-28, describes the return of Himself ("Son of Man") Rev. 19:11-16, to earth to rescue the remnant of Israel from all over the world, (V.31.) There are many references in the[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Old Testament to that great event. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]It shows here that the Pagan myth is under the control of The One True God, and is used as a sign of His wrath, and control of events![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](c)[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]“Moon;” [/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]the above references and comments also apply, the moon given the status in pagan mythology "the queen of heaven!”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.13 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And the (a)stars of heaven fell to the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a great wind.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](a) This may mean meteorites or other skyward bodies. It will be clear at the time.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.14[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a)And heaven parted asunder as a scroll, rolling itself up; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and every mountain and island were removed out of their places.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](a) See Matt. 24:, 35, Isa. 34:1-4, 13:6-13. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Clearly this describes earth movement on a massive scale. This is predicted in the prophets. Also Scripture seems to show that Jerusalem may be a sea port in the Millennial, however, the flow of water from Jerusalem may be a new source, flowing east and west (Zech. 14:8 and Ezk. 47,) and probably is for regeneration of the desert areas. This verse implies world-wide volcanic upheaval including Israel. As Israel does not have any islands the reference to such in verse 14 gives clear emphasis to the global nature of this event.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt] V.15 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And the kings of the earth, and the great ones, and the rich ones, and the chief captains, and the mighty ones, and bondman, and free one, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.16 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And they say to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.17[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]For the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]great day[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] of His wrath is come; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and (a)who is able to stand?"[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](a) The next chapter gives those 'able to stand!'[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Note: (2014)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Clearly by this time,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] nobody denies God! [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]But they still resist Him and Christ. Now the emphasis is on escaping from God and the Lamb. The amazing thing[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]is that still the people do not seek mercy, and they still do not understand or know that escape is impossible, such has been and still is the influence of Satan on their arrogance and pride.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]See: Psm. 2:2, 68:4, 97:5, Isa. 24:19-23, 34:12, 2:10-22, Nahum 1:5, Heb. 12:26, Luke 23:30, Hos. 10:8, Joel 2:31, Rev. 19:19.[/SIZE]

 

[shturt678]

Thank you for your response brother Floyd!

Waaay above my paygrade my brother, however long ago until today I seen where the other 3 horsment are plainly personifications; it is therefore, fair to conclude that the first also is which I don't think you will have an issue with. I see your references to Matt.24 are valid, Yet Matt.24:5 (or v.11) are not the ones referred to my brother; Matt.24:6, 7 point to the three horsemen, vs. 9, 10 to the fifth seal and to the martys, vs. 29 to the sixth seal and to the end is pretty much how I have it.

Matt.24:14 fits this first horseman in Rev.6:2, yet not so much "the gospel of the Kingdom of God" considered as the saving power, but more with Rom.1:18 riding out in its own power to conquer - the Word of God conquers alone which fits this 1st horseman in my non-scholarly opinion.

Old Jack's opinion,

Thank you again my brother, enjoyed!

 

[Madad21]

It seems all the horses and riders conquer, but who or what conquers with the first rider in Rev.6:2? I take the signified view in light of Rev.1:1, "to show....he signified...". The other seals?

The rider has a crown but not a helmet and the horse is white, which was not appropriate for battle because they stood out like a mark.

The Rider is Christ
As I read I find that the crown is given to him, meaning that "all who receive the gospel must receive Christ as king" as so is glorified in success of the gospel. so the Crown is an emblem of victory in this case which is why he wears this and not a helmet because He is certain of victory, while he rides His white horse depicting the truth of the gospel, moving throughout the world. It is a target for our enemies who despise it.

Matthew Henry says - "He went forth conquering, and to conquer. As long as the church continues militant Christ will be conquering; when he has conquered his enemies in one age he meets with new ones in another age; men go on opposing, and Christ goes on conquering, and his former victories are pledges of future victories. He conquers his enemies in his people; their sins are their enemies and his enemies; when Christ comes with power into their soul he begins to conquer these enemies, and he goes on conquering, in the progressive work of sanctification, till he has gained us a complete victory."

I know I cheated

 

[shturt678]

The rider has a crown but not a helmet and the horse is white, which was not appropriate for battle because they stood out like a mark.

The Rider is Christ
As I read I find that the crown is given to him, meaning that "all who receive the gospel must receive Christ as king" as so is glorified in success of the gospel. so the Crown is an emblem of victory in this case which is why he wears this and not a helmet because He is certain of victory, while he rides His white horse depicting the truth of the gospel, moving throughout the world. It is a target for our enemies who despise it.

Matthew Henry says - "He went forth conquering, and to conquer. As long as the church continues militant Christ will be conquering; when he has conquered his enemies in one age he meets with new ones in another age; men go on opposing, and Christ goes on conquering, and his former victories are pledges of future victories. He conquers his enemies in his people; their sins are their enemies and his enemies; when Christ comes with power into their soul he begins to conquer these enemies, and he goes on conquering, in the progressive work of sanctification, till he has gained us a complete victory."

I know I cheated

Thank you for your response and caring my brother!

How do you think I advanced to a higher paygrade, ie, 'cheated' - confession of sin time. The "Futurist view" is a valid view of course! Good job! Sure you're not of a higher paygrade? The prime mover fo this view, ie, not originator, was first advocated by the Jesuit Ribera in about 1590 of course. He placed everything beginning with Rev.4 at the time of the Second Coming of Christ (Rev.6:2) The Jews are assigned a great role, ie, however my belief is a remnant of Jews are becoming, and will become Jewish Christians in light of Rom. chapters 9 & 11.

Your would have cheated if you advocated the Jesuit Alcazar's view in 1614, ie, the "Preterite view." You didn't cheat on this one.

I'm of another valid view called the "Historcal Synchronous View." Rev.6:2 has been coming to pass for a loooong time where we are in the "Millennium," and even towards the end of it.

Excellent response!

 

[Madad21]

wow a lot to think about there . Cheers!

Madad looking for his dictionary...

 

[shturt678]

wow a lot to think about there . Cheers!

Madad looking for his dictionary...

You're way ahead by just caring waaay beyond Church on Sunday for the whole 3600 seconds out of the day's 86,400 seconds or so. Questioned by a young 43 year old Christian recently why isn't his going to Jesus daily without getting into the Word not good enough, eg, prayer, telling others "God bless you," and etc.

My response was if you are an average Christian then your T.V. time is about 2.5 hours a day or so thus no reason you cannot get into the Word with your three young children with you for 1.25 hours discussing the Word with them then turn on the T.V. for the rest of the 1.25 hours or more.

Unbelievable, he thanked me instead of going into the usual Christian rage.

Old Jack's sharing. Miracles are still happening!

 

[Nothingbutthetruth]

Thankfully people on here don't see the White Horse of Revelation chapter 6 as the anti-christ.

Here is a link to my study on the white horse

http://yeshuasbreaduponthewaters.blogspot.co.nz/2012/03/four-horsemen-not-anti-christ-but.html

Only a Week Man Said

(QUOTE)

[SIZE=14pt]"(a) Black in Scripture signifies famine, see Lam. 4:4-8, 5:10, Jer. 14:1-2.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]( B) A "choenix" of corn was a slaves daily ration, and was an amount usually purchased for an eighth of a denarius. Therefore prices had risen 8 fold. A "denarius" was a day's wage, (Comp. page 1891.) Clearly this indicates heavy inflation and devaluing of money. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]© It is said that oil and wine increases hunger! [/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]However, as "oil and wine" in Scripture can represent Israel, as they are derived from the Olive tree, and the Vine, it may refer to that portion of Israel which are to be saved from "The Great Tribulation," i.e. "the remnant.” If the Olive and the Vine idea is correct, it would indicate that Israel are at that stage not yet “Ammi”; (reinstated)"[/SIZE]

It is again noticeable that the instructions are issued by the four Zoa, who carry the administrative responsibility for the earth. The number 4 in Scripture always relates to earth, and earth events.
Note: Dr. Bullinger relates to Matt. 24:7. " End Quote



I thought you might be interested in my Study on the Black horse. I have quoted and HIGHLIGHT (ONLY A WEEK MANS) thread above in large letters about Bullenger because near the end of my study I actually show how the numbers in scripture corresponds to the 7 seals and how it fits what I have been studying. The number three speaks of COMPLETE/ENTIRE which I have brought out in my study.

It all came about because of a study on Barley actually and it throws a whole different light on things

It speaks of ABUNDANCE not famine, the pale horse is the horse of famine

http://yeshuasbreaduponthewaters.blogspot.co.nz/2012/02/black-horse-of-revelation-not-horse-of.html

 

[Trekson]

Sorry Nothing, But I for one do believe the rider on the white horse is the a/c conquering by deception via imitating Christ, hence the white horse. When he first comes on the scene he will seem like a good guy, solving some world problems, etc. The jews will think he is their Messiah and he will go with that plan. The goal of the Anit-christ isn't the destruction of Israel and the church. It's to steal from God the worship and admiration due him and have it applied to himself instead.

 

[shturt678s]

Thank you folks for caring again!

If the white color is intended to deceive, then why the other three colors are true colors?

If Christ is undoubtedly the Lamb that opens all the seals; would He, then, be only one of these riders? Would one of the living ones under Him to go the other horsemen are order to go?

I concluded long ago, doesn't mean I'm correct, that the three horsemen are plainly personifications, then fair to conclude that the first also is noting the Word conquers on its own power, viz. Rom1:16, 18.

Old Jack

 

[Trekson]

Hi Shturt, Jesus is the only one worthy to open the scroll because He was the only perfect man to obey the whole law, which resulted in Him being pure enough to become our sacrificial Lamb. By His obedience and perfect life He paved the way for us to receive the free gift of grace, by fulfilling and completing the Law. Because He was the Perfect Man on earth, He is the only one worthy to meter out judgment and wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth.

Consider the sealed scroll! What is inside the scroll can not be read until the 7th and final seal is opened. Some folks believe the seals of Rev. 6 to be part of God's judgment and wrath and I offer this as additional proof that this can't be. A scroll is like a roll of paper towels. If you were to seal the open end with seven pieces of tape, the roll of paper towels will not operate correctly until the last (7th) piece of tape is removed. If you try to unroll it without removing all the tape you will only end up tearing the paper towel and not getting a complete sheet. Seven is the number of perfection and completeness.

When Jesus opens each seal, He is not unleashing His wrath upon the earth. That can't occur until the scroll is completely open. What He is doing, in my opinion is heralding the seven signs of His return that we as believers are to watch for. The seals of Rev. 6 parallel the signs in Matt. 24.

Christ is not one of the riders, He is just the one telling them "now is the time for you to ride". There is no deception on the part of the last three riders, they bring just what the word says they bring. The seals are basically humanity's last time to repent. Imo, it's their "last call".

 

[shturt678s]

Rev.6:1, 2 Let's look at the symbolism in light of "the seven seals." "7" = 3, God's number + 4, world's number = indicate what God does in and with the world. Obviously the first "4" Seals belong together.

The fact that each of the four horsemen should be introduced by one of the four living ones appears fitting when these living ones signify the earthly agents of God's providence, for what the horsemen symbolize is certainly connected with God's provential work and its agents throughout the whole N.T. era.

Simply the power of the Word here described is directed against the enemies of the Lamb, Rev.6:2 now, this moment, ie, non-miraculous judgments now, this moment!

Old Jack's opinion

 

[Trekson]

Hi Jack, I think we'd be better off leaving symbolism out of it except for the obvious passages. Symbolism and Numerology have no place as a "standard" for interpreting prophecy.

 

[shturt678s]

Hi Jack, I think we'd be better off leaving symbolism out of it except for the obvious passages. Symbolism and Numerology have no place as a "standard" for interpreting prophecy.

Thank you for your response and caring + have the highest respect for you and your words thus paying attention!

Maybe your correct thus let's relook at the number "7" in Revelation again. Seven is used 54 times in Revelation and its symbolical meaning must be understood. Seven idicates the union (make one) of God with men. Again, "3" God's number correct (God the Father, Son,.and Holy Spirit), correct? + "4" (earth's number - men), correct? "7" doesn't denote "completeness, ""10" does, correct? Especially in light of Rev.1:1, "to show...he signified." Viz. "666" signified, correct, ie, not a literal number marked on men's heads and hands, correct?

Old Jack's opinion

 

[Trekson]

Hi Jack, Following your thought lines can be a little confusing but I'll give it my best shot. Do I think the no. 666 is a "real" number? Yes, I do! Will it actually be 666? I don't know but I believe all believers will recognize it when it arrives and I do believe it will be a literal mark of some sort. I don't believe the word "signified" implies that Christ will reveal His truth with signs and symbols. I think a better definition would be predicted, indicated, as "shown" by His angel, etc.

Most of the time numbers are just numbers and have no other meaning than the obvious. If it were as you believe than I believe consistency would be in order, meaning that every time a specific number is given it would have the same meaning, but they do not unless:

You believe the seven heads of the dragon in Rev. 13:1 is indicative of "God's union with men". If anything, in this case it is indicative of the AntiChrist's union with men!

You believe the three frogs of Rev.16:13 are representing God, but that can't be because they are called unclean spirits!

You believe all the uses of the no. four in Rev. means men or the earth and I don't think a single one of them does.

You believe the ten crowns or ten heads of the dragon are speaking of the completeness of God. I do not.

 

[shturt678s]

or presenting God, but that can't be because they are called unclean spirits!

You believe all the uses of the no. four in Rev. means men or the earth and I don't think a single one of them does.

You believe the ten crowns or ten heads of the dragon are speaking of the completeness of God. I do not.

You not only got it, but the "man" for the hour...short lived around here with brother RANDOR! Good job for now anyway!

Again maybe you're correct thus let's look at your reference to Rev.13:1, "seven heads"??? "7" Antichrist in union with men or "7" where like the dragon, the brute of God's dealing (uniting) with men. Dragon and brute have appropriated the "7" for their "heads'" as though all their plans and designs for men were holy and sacred as God's are. Again, been putting this forth for decades where too many view this as fallacious to insane thus your posit could be valid?

"666" Rev.13:18, ...is a human number...." thus am sure we're not even agreeing to agree regarding the rendition let alone the interpretation??? Will let this go for now as have to help a little ol' lady that got wiped out with the hurricane to storm we just had and can see she's depressed thus will be back after our Lord puts her back on her feet,

Old Jack trying to get one more mile out this old body.