We must be born again to be God's kingdom.

[Joyful]

That is why I am asking YOU: . How do I become born of water and Spirit?

According to Jesus, you become born of water and Spirit if you are sold to Jesus.

But are you willing to know how to be Jesus' faithful follower? or you are seeking cheap salvation which is half truth gospel.

You need to know what Jesus teaches to become His disciples.

You should not be asking around people what it takes to be His true disciple.

Jesus is the Teacher of salvation. He is the Author of Salvation. Listen to Him. That's what His Father commands us to "listen to Him, Jesus".

blessings.

 

[Joyful]

And again I never revealed my position regarding that doctrine...you do understand you have a fallacy here...

From your comments and questions, I gathered you are just another OSAS follower.

Aren't you OSAS follower?

If not, I apologize.

 

[justaname]

Well before I answer...would you are to answer any of the questions I posed?

I mean you are the one building the premise and making the claims...and as you can see from my questions your statements need clarification....

 

[Joyful]

Well before I answer...would you are to answer any of the questions I posed?

I mean you are the one building the premise and making the claims...and as you can see from my questions your statements need clarification....

What is your question?

What are you going to do about it?

It seems to me you are not interested in what Jesus has to say because that's all I have been spreading, Jesus' word.

 

[justaname]

What is your question?

What are you going to do about it?

It seems to me you are not interested in what Jesus has to say because that's all I have been spreading, Jesus' word.

I have posted a series of questions and you have not ventured to answer even one.

You make the claim that all you are doing is spreading Jesus' word, yet you interpret what He said. You are giving the meaning to His words. So your claim of innocence is not honest, and I have already proven this point so you already know this. So not only are you being dishonest, you are pridefully or deceitfully holding to false innocence.

Shalom

 

[Joyful]

I have posted a series of questions and you have not ventured to answer even one.

Yes, I know. I don't take a bait to derail the thread. I answer question one at a time.

Your questions were leading to out of topic.

 

[tom55]

[SIZE=12pt]Joyful said[/SIZE]: [SIZE=12pt]According to [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Jesus, you become born of water and Spirit if you are sold to [/SIZE]Jesus[SIZE=12pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]I ask:[/SIZE] Where does it say in scripture that we “become born of water and Spirit” when we “are sold to Jesus”? What I read in scripture is that God always starts new things with “water and the spirit“.

The first creation came from the earth which was covered with WATER and the SPIRIT hovered over or moved upon the waters. [SIZE=10pt](Gen1:1-2)[/SIZE]

In the OT a new humanity, by the destruction of wicked men, was started with Noah through WATER and SPIRIT. The ark went through the water and a dove (representing the Spirit) hovered overhead with an olive branch. Noah’s story is connected to the NT when Peter said the water represents baptism. [SIZE=10pt](1Peter 3:18-21)[/SIZE]

When He used WATER (the Red Sea) to save Moses and His chosen people. The lightening and cloud being the SPIRIT? He started a new nation (Israel) by using WATER and SPIRIT. [SIZE=10pt](EX 14) [/SIZE]

And when He speaks to Ezekiel of a New Covenant where He will cleanse with WATER and give a new SPIRIT. [SIZE=10pt](EZ 36:25-26)[/SIZE]

When Jesus went into the WATER to be baptized and the SPIRIT (in the form of a dove) came upon him. (Mathew 3:18)


Or when Peter said we must be baptized with WATER for the forgiveness of our sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy SPIRIT“. [SIZE=10pt](Acts 2:38)[/SIZE]

Joyful said: [SIZE=10.5pt]You need to know what [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Jesus[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]teaches to become His disciples[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]God starts things new with WATER and SPIRIT which is why a Christian must be baptized to have their sins forgiven. Baptism is like being born again. That is what Jesus is teaching ME, Tom55, about “water and Spirit”.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt] So I ask you again, Joyful, [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]what YOU think He means by that statement?[/SIZE]

 

[DPMartin]

My comment:

In a nutshell, we are not born again unless we keep the commands of God through Jesus Christ.

Your statement merely attempts to tempt, the arguments of if one brakes a commandment then they are not saved or lose their salvation, but the flesh and the life of it has been given up for the life of Christ. And that doesn’t change the life of dust to dust and ashes to ashes also known as human nature. And it seems you’ve omitted what the very same writer said about your view.

1John:1
1: That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2: (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
3: That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4: And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5: This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10: If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Note that the "we" in versus 6,7,8,9 and 10 are referring to the same people in the same status with God as John. He doesn’t say you, he says "we".

Flesh (including human nature) requires a commandment to obey, but the Spirit that one is to be born of, loves God and that which is of God, without command or demand.

 

[Barrd]

Barrd and Joyful,

Your reasoning is flawed. You both come giving your interpretations of what Jesus teaches. Thereby you make yourself the authority on what Jesus teaches. Hence you are teaching what Jesus teaches.

You both are teachers. Now I believe you are attempting to follow Jesus' command to call no one Teacher, yet in this context of the Scriptures the word takes on a bit of a different meaning (this is why I use a Capitol T)


So my point in case is in the OP, Joyful came to a conclusion of what the Scriptures covey. Once any thing other than the Scriptures themselves were submitted you have shifted from objectivity (this is what the Scriptures say) to subjectivity (this is what the Scriptures mean by what they say) This is how and why you have made yourself teachers...especially if you believe yourselves to be right.

I don't want to bog us down with translation and subjectivity...

So then in effect because you believe yourself to be right, you are teaching your view. Let take for example the doctrine of OSAS...
What if you are wrong in your stance against it? Then you have been teaching against what Jesus teaches...

Just for the record...I have never in this thread revealed my position regarding that subject...

I don't come telling anyone that I said such-and-such, and therefore you must do as I say.
What I am doing is pointing out what Jesus Christ and His Apostles taught, and strongly suggesting that you obey Him.
You can choose, of course, to disregard me....I'm nobody special, just a hack from Alabama.
But please...do not choose to disregard Jesus Christ, Who suffered and died for you.

 

[justaname]

Yes, I know. I don't take a bait to derail the thread. I answer question one at a time.

Your questions were leading to out of topic.

Again you assume I was attempting to derail this thread...why is it you feel the need to malign my character?

My questions were specific to this topic and your responses. It is obvious you do not desire to clarify your claims, only make them...

 

[justaname]

I don't come telling anyone that I said such-and-such, and therefore you must do as I say.
What I am doing is pointing out what Jesus Christ and His Apostles taught, and strongly suggesting that you obey Him.
You can choose, of course, to disregard me....I'm nobody special, just a hack from Alabama.
But please...do not choose to disregard Jesus Christ, Who suffered and died for you.

My description is clear as to what you actually do here...your claim of innocence is as false as Joyful's...

Honestly I don't care if you want to discuss your interpretations, I just want you to own them without hiding behind the "well these are not my teachings" false claim.

 

[Barrd]

Your statement merely attempts to tempt, the arguments of if one brakes a commandment then they are not saved or lose their salvation, but the flesh and the life of it has been given up for the life of Christ. And that doesn’t change the life of dust to dust and ashes to ashes also known as human nature. And it seems you’ve omitted what the very same writer said about your view.

1John:1
1: That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2: (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
3: That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4: And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5: This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10: If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Note that the "we" in versus 6,7,8,9 and 10 are referring to the same people in the same status with God as John. He doesn’t say you, he says "we".

Flesh (including human nature) requires a commandment to obey, but the Spirit that one is to be born of, loves God and that which is of God, without command or demand.

By George, I think you've got it.
Yes...the Spirit that we are born of loves God, and that which is of God....and will obey Him, because it is natural and right for us to do so.
As Jesus said "If you love Me, keep My commands."

 

[ATP]

Revelation 2:4-5
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly,
and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

looks like here people could have fallen from grace if the did not repent

Jesus is removing the fallen (church) out of its high place. Candlestick represents a group of people, not the Holy Spirit. For example, it's not saying God will remove the Holy Spirit from your body, rather it's saying God will remove the church as a people from your pride because they chose not to love Rev 2:4 NIV. The Gospel is of love, not religion folks. It's not talking about individual salvation, rather a group of people..

κινεῖν τήν λυχνίαν τίνος (ἐκκλησίας) ἐκ τοῦ τόπου αὐτῆς, to move a church out of the place which it has hitherto held among the churches; to take it out of the number of churches, remove it altogether, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent; or thee out of the candlestick, the pastor from the church, either by persecution or by death; or else the church, and church state itself, signified by a candlestick;

To be victorious, one would have to believe and trust in Jesus Christ as their savior Rom 10:9-10 NIV, 1 John 5:4-5 NIV. Many will not believe that Jesus died for all their sins...

Rev 2:7 NIV Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Prov 21:31 NIV The horse is made ready for the day of battle, but victory rests with the LORD.

John 16:33 NIV "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

Rom 8:35 NIV Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

Rom 8:37 NIV No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

1 Cor 15:57 NIV But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Cor 2:14 NIV But thanks be to God, who always leads us as captives in Christ's triumphal procession and uses us to spread the aroma of the knowledge of him everywhere.

1 John 5:4-5 NIV for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Rev 2:7 NIV Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Rev 21:7-8 NIV Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

 

[Barrd]

My description is clear as to what you actually do here...your claim of innocence is as false as Joyful's...

Honestly I don't care if you want to discuss your interpretations, I just want you to own them without hiding behind the "well these are not my teachings" false claim.

I'm not sure what either I or Joyful are claiming to be "innocent" of.
Neither of us has claimed our own authority, both of us have given God all of the glory, as is right.
I'm sorry if I have offended you, that was certainly never my intention, nor do I think that Joyful is here with the intention of offending anyone, either.
As far as I can make out, neither of us has posted anything that Jesus and/or the Apostles did not say or do.

Again, I say....you are quite free to disregard me, I am nobody. You won't hurt my feelings...I've been insulted on the internet before.
But even if you could hurt my feelings, it wouldn't matter. There's nothing I could do about it anyway.
But please, please, please...do not disregard the Lord Who bought you with a price...

 

[justaname]

I'm not sure what either I or Joyful are claiming to be "innocent" of.
Neither of us has claimed our own authority, both of us have given God all of the glory, as is right.
I'm sorry if I have offended you, that was certainly never my intention, nor do I think that Joyful is here with the intention of offending anyone, either.
As far as I can make out, neither of us has posted anything that Jesus and/or the Apostles did not say or do.

Again, I say....you are quite free to disregard me, I am nobody. You won't hurt my feelings...I've been insulted on the internet before.
But even if you could hurt my feelings, it wouldn't matter. There's nothing I could do about it anyway.
But please, please, please...do not disregard the Lord Who bought you with a price...

Here is one quote from post #31 of you...and if I comb this thread I am sure there are more to illustrate my point

"People who cling to the OSAS doctrine claim that all they have to do is believe in Jesus, and they will have eternal life, no matter what they might do from that moment on. "

Can you show me where either Jesus or the Apostles said this? Is this not YOUR teaching?

My point is you are lying when you say, "Neither of us claimed our own authority" and "neither of us has posted anything that Jesus and/or the Apostles did not say or do."

The moment you comment on the Scriptures you are making yourself the authority, unless you quote someone else's comment. And then the moment you post anything other than the Scriptures themselves you have posted something the Apostles and Jesus never said.


Now I will say you did not offend me, neither do I believe that is either of your intentions, to offend. The problem I have is with your tactic of making assertions on what you believe are the teachings of Christ and attaching YOUR assertions to Him. Then you claim you are not teaching anything...(your claim of innocence)

Perhaps you missed this in a previous post...

...in the OP, Joyful came to a conclusion of what the Scriptures covey. Once any thing other than the Scriptures themselves were submitted you have shifted from objectivity (this is what the Scriptures say) to subjectivity (this is what the Scriptures mean by what they say) This is how and why you have made yourself teachers...especially if you believe yourselves to be right.

 

[DPMartin]

By George, I think you've got it.
Yes...the Spirit that we are born of loves God, and that which is of God....and will obey Him, because it is natural and right for us to do so.
As Jesus said "If you love Me, keep My commands."

No, it’s not natural and right for us to do so, we are not naturally like Christ and its only Christ that can do so and is acceptable to God when done so. If it were our nature to obey the commandments to God’s satisfaction, then we would be in no need of the Life of Christ to replace ours. We are sons and daughters of men when we come into the world, with the nature of men, and not the nature of God, unless born of God’s Spirit to be like that which can obey the commandments to God’s satisfaction. And the truth is, we will not be able to do so in fullness until we see, Him in His fullness. I do believe that is also according to John that when we see Him we will be like Him.

If you claim that your nature and likeness is God’s likeness and nature then why would Jesus even bother to replace your nature and likeness with His? Human nature is non-redeemable, it is the soul that is given God’s nature in Christ that redeems the soul not human nature or likeness.

And don’t fool your self with the you can’t be a sinner and a Christian crap. King David broke and repented of all the rules except the first Commandment. And you can bet David will have a very high place in God’s Kingdom. Much higher then our's.

It seems that you are striving for the justification of your’s, or other’s judgement of who is and is not a Christian. There is only One who says ye or nay when it comes to who’s repentance and love of mercy is acceptable, and who’s lack of it is not. It ain’t me and it certainly ain’t you. I say this because if one trusts God’s Judgement then he wouldn’t be so concerned with his brothers infirmities, and short comings, and wouldn’t have need to justify doing so, which is human nature’s use of the law. Surely the Lord’s court prefers the request for mercy for the unthankful, and the wicked. note God's Mercy Supercedes all.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

Bible_Gazer, on 25 Aug 2015 - 05:59 AM, said:

Revelation 2:4-5
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly,
and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

looks like here people could have fallen from grace if the did not repent

ATP
Jesus is removing the fallen (church) out of its high place. Candlestick represents a group of people, not the Holy Spirit. For example, it's not saying God will remove the Holy Spirit from your body, rather it's saying God will remove the church as a people from your pride because they chose not to love Rev 2:4 NIV. The Gospel is of love, not religion folks. It's not talking about individual salvation, rather a group of people..


Gazer
They have fallen from the love of Jesus - they were loving something else more
So Jesus told them repent or I will remove the church from your mist.
The kingdom of God would be separated from them and that mean no reward of eternal life for them from the tree of life.

So there you go you can die if the Holy Spirit is in you, its not the Holy Spirit that sinned its the person that came against it.

Ananias and Saphira lied against the Holy Ghost and they died and they were believers.

 

[Joyful]

...especially if you believe yourselves to be right.

You are putting the word into our mouths.

We are God's messengers.

We are pointing out what you OSAS people disregarding to justify your own man-made doctrines.

No one has right to spread half truth gospel.


I know you don't want the whole truth to be revealed. Your tactic is obvious that you want the whole truth to be silenced.

 

[Joyful]

My description is clear as to what you actually do here...your claim of innocence is as false as Joyful's...

No one is claiming innocence. How many times do we have to tell you. Please don't make false accusation. It is so unchristian like.

We have been claiming we are so imperfect. We are sinners. In fact, it is you, OSAS believers claim to be saved and cannot sin because Jesus took care of it.

I don't claim to be saved because it is Jesus who judges if I will be saved or not.

Lets make the facts straight.

 

[ATP]

The kingdom of God would be separated from them and that mean no reward of eternal life for them from the tree of life.

Where in those passages do you see the words kingdom of God.

Scripture clearly says that once we believe we have eternal life John 3:14-15 NIV, John 3:16 NIV, John 5:24 NIV, John 6:40 NIV, John 6:47 NIV, Acts 13:46-48 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Tit 3:7 NIV, 1 John 5:13-14 NIV. If you scroll down a couple passages to Rev 2:7 NIV, how are we victorious? By believing in the Son of God....

1 John 5:4-5 NIV for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.