WE NEED TO BE BORN AGAIN.

[Karl Peters]

Yes I meant without a Church or some Pastor or Priest or congregation.

I have read the Bible myself and have done it on my own without mans interference.

Saying "without mans interference" is not the same things as saying "The Lord was teaching me"!

I was not going to church when I heard "READ YOUR BIBLE" - right after I woke up one morning back in 1999. Those were the first words I ever had heard from the Lord. I did read my Bible (which my mom had given me many years before that). At that time I still did not understand that we could have a personal relationship with the Lord, so I didn't hear any words from Him during those 8 months while I read through the Bible. And since I was not going to church during most of those 8 months, I had very little to no interference from man while I read that Bible. The Lord did start doing things in my life. I started getting dreams, visions, and other weird spiritual things. Still, I was not hearing His small voice everyday like I do today. I really wound up understanding that He is there to talk to us a couple of months after I finished reading my Bible.

So I really got to know the Lord after I finished reading the Bible, and like any relationship, it takes some time to grow that relationship and that my spending time with a person. In this case the person we need to spend time with is Jesus Christ, which we can to because He sends His Holy Spirit us!

The point is that reading the Bible "without mans interference" is not the same thing as having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and having Him show you things in the Bible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When I got to actually know the Lord He did start showing me things in the Bible - really interesting things too. It is really hard to put things in the Bible together and get the over all understanding without Him pointing those things out to you.

I wonder how many people understand the connection between the tower of Babel and speaking in tongues????

In the tower of Babel story God says that if people come together all speaking the same language that nothing would be impossible for them, so God broke them apart and gave them different languages. However if we all spoke in tongue, as the Spirit leads us, then we would all be together and speaking the same language so nothing would be impossible for us.

So often the Lord will tell me that He wants to show me something in the Bible and tell me to go to this Chapter and then point out that verse and will start discussing it with me. So there is a massively big difference in saying you did something without any man influencing you - that is just leaning on your own understanding - and getting to know the Lord and listen to Him about the Bible and everything else in your life!!

It is a relationship - an actual relationship that results from believing in Him - simply because He is omni-present (never leaves you). So if you believe in Him you are spending time with Him, right? Maybe you have other things to do, but who knowing God would not talk to Him everyday?

 

[theefaith]

In our bibles we are being told by Paul that IF you are a Christian, there is NO POSSIBILITY AT ALL that there is any condemnation from God towards you. Ever. No condemnation. We are also being told that we are the children of God – and that this relationship with God is based, not on FEAR, but upon LOVE. Also, we are being told that God is FOR us – and that because of that, nothing and no one can stand against us. And finally, we are being told that there is NOTHING WHATSOEVER that can come between us and the love of God in Christ Jesus. We are also told that we do not have to EARN our Salvation by works but that it is a FREE gift, and that we are accepted by God because of our FAITH.

ü Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1-2

ü In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 1 John:17-19

ü If God is for us, who can be against us? Romans 8:31

ü For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-19

ü For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8-9


These assurances are describing, not only God’s attitude towards us, but they are describing our RELATIONSHIP with Him through Christ. We could list many other verses. But these four strike at the heart and core of so many of the problems we have in our Christian walk.

All true but there is a big IF in there. Terms and conditions still apply in God's Kingdom. And not everyone who calls themselves a Christian is a Christian. Not all church goers are Christians. Not all clergy, including bishops and priests, are born again Christians. Not everyone who was Christened/’baptised’ as a baby is a born again Christian. Not everybody who has a title in front of their name is a Christian. Not everybody who was brought up by Christian parents is a Christian. This is something I was taught by the lovely Spirit filled C of E vicar who led me to Christ over thirty years ago. I thought I was a Christian but I wasn’t. You have to make your own choice.

Some of these and other similar truths were listed in the front of a little booklet called 'Journey Into Life' which I read and responded to all those years ago. It is still true today. There is only one way to be a Christian and that is to repent, seek forgiveness die to self and turn your life over to Jesus, ask him to come into your heart - because if Jesus isn’t in your HEART whatever you do is just empty religion.

You need to be born again.

Are we talking baptismal regeneration here?

 

[Karl Peters]

Are we talking baptismal regeneration here?

So where does it come in?

Is if from reading your Bible - alone without the influence of other men - does it come from opening up to the Lord and hearing Him - Does it happen when a person believes and what does that belief mean?

Maybe it only comes if you got the gift of tongues, but I know many people who hear from Him who don't have the gift of tongue and Jesus said that if you are born again you hear the sound of the wind?

You have a bit of explaining to do - I did mine - you hear the sound of the wind like Jesus said - and the sound of the wind is that small voice that comes from the Lord via His Holy Spirit!!!

But it seems many are not making that connection!!

Jn 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

If you don't still understand what I am say - Being born again is hearing from the Spirit and that gives you life! There is a direct and identical connection between the above verse and:

Jn 3:8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

 

[theefaith]

So where does it come in?

Is if from reading your Bible - alone without the influence of other men - does it come from opening up to the Lord and hearing Him - Does it happen when a person believes and what does that belief mean?

Maybe it only comes if you got the gift of tongues, but I know many people who hear from Him who don't have the gift of tongue and Jesus said that if you are born again you hear the sound of the wind?

You have a bit of explaining to do - I did mine - you hear the sound of the wind like Jesus said - and the sound of the wind is that small voice that comes from the Lord via His Holy Spirit!!!

But it seems many are not making that connection!!

Jn 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

If you don't still understand what I am say - Being born again is hearing from the Spirit and that gives you life! There is a direct and identical connection between the above verse and:

Jn 3:8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

the wind is just air
Born again is baptism

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)


Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism / water)

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptismal regeneration!

 

[farouk]

Yes I meant without a Church or some Pastor or Priest or congregation.

The Lord Jesus is the believer's one Mediator (1 Timothy 2.5).

 

[JohnPaul]

The Lord Jesus is the believer's one Mediator (1 Timothy 2.5).

Exactly Farouk!

 

[theefaith]

The Lord Jesus is the believer's one Mediator (1 Timothy 2.5).

Peter is already administering the kingdom

Already acting in the person of Christ even acting as mediator

It is Jesus Christ who identifies peter with himself!

Matt 17:24 And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?

25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

It is Jesus Christ who identifies peter with himself!

Jesus Christ gives the keys of the kingdom to peter matt 16:18-19 making him prime minister applying Isa 22:21-22 to peter

It’s Christ who does this

Why is the name of peter even mentioned?

Why does Christ give him the keys of jurisdictional authority that the prime minister holds under the king to administer the kingdom?

How do you govern the church and administer the kingdom with a confession?

How do you give jurisdictional authority to a confession? (Keys of the kingdom)

How do you give a confession the power to bind and loose?


also have to explain
Isa 22:21-22 jurisdictional authority of the keys and called father
Matt 28:19 go teach baptize
Jn 20:21-23 same mission power and authority as christ
Eph 2:20 church built on the apostles
Matt 23 successors of Moses have the jurisdictional authority and the power to bind and loose which Christ says must be obeyed, then taken from them matt 21:43 given to Peter and the apostles and their successors

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.



Applies only to Peter as “prince of the apostles”!

Peter and his successors are the Leader of the apostles and the head of the church until Christ returns!

Matt 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Lk 22:32 Christ prayed for Peter!

Peter is head of the church!

Isa 22:21-22 21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Matt 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt 23:1 power and authority of the kingdom known in the keys and binding and loosing, Matt 21:43 kingdom shall be taken from you given to another who will bear fruit. (Peter the apostles in holy church Lk 22:29)

Matt 17:27 Jesus identified peter with himself.

Matt 16:17 Peter alone received revelation from the Father

Lk 22:32 Peter to strengthen his brethren (the apostles)

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep

Peter exercises his authority over the apostles and the church!

Acts 1:15
Acts 3:4
Acts 5:5 5:10
Acts 15:7

ONLY TO PETER CHRIST SAID: THOU ART PETER AND UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILT MY CHURCH, AND THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT!Matt 16:18

Peter is the prime minister, father, and head of the church on earth until Christ returns Isa 22:21-22

Seat of peter remains Until Christ returns
Matt 28:19-20

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

4 important questions:

1) How do you govern the church and administer the kingdom with a confession?

2) How do you give jurisdictional authority to a confession? (Keys of the kingdom)

3) How do you give a confession the power to bind and loose?

4) why did Christ give the keys to Peter (and only to Peter) keys of jurisdictional authority. Isa 22:21-22 why even bother to mention Peter if he is not involved?

Explain Jn 20:21 Peter and the apostles and their successors have the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! “As the father sent me, so I send you”!

Matt 28:19 christ communicates his authority to peter and the apostles to teach all nations, baptize all disciples!
Jn 20:21-23 apostles even have authority to forgive sins
Eph 2:20 church built on the apostles
Matt 23 the authority and power of the successors of Moses required to be obeyed are taken from them and given to Peter and the apostles

Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:

 

[Karl Peters]

the wind is just air
Born again is baptism

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)


Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism / water)

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptismal regeneration!

the wind is just air?????

This is the sad part - that we have no understanding!

If the wind talked about in Jn 3 is just air then everyone with physical ears who can pick up sound waves is born again!!!!

Ps 78:1,2 A Maskil of Asaph.
Listen, O my people, to my instruction;
Incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
I will open my mouth in a parable;
I will utter dark sayings of old,

The Lord speaks to us in parables and saying, and that because with our ears we don't hear!! Of course we all have physical ears which we can and do hear with! So if Jesus was talking about our physical ears then we are are born again. Yet that is not true otherwise this is not an issue, and besides Jesus went into an explanation about the Spirit and the kingdom of God.

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

So we are talking about who if you are born again you will hear with your spiritual ears and know that the kingdom of God (which includes Father, Son, and Spirit, along with the hosts of heaven) is spiritual!!!

Jn 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.


Now if anyone knows the Lord Jesus Christ they know Him because they hear His words that come from His Holy Spirit!!

His words to us are often called "the small voice" in the church today. Some Christians like to call it the spoken word. The profits of old used to just call His voice "The Word of God" which to them was Him - just talking to them.

So that is hearing the sound of the wind, and those who know Him testify about Him because they hear His Holy Spirit bring His words to our spirit. So it is that the Word of God we preach is found in our heart and sometimes in our mouth - because we have been born of the Spirit - which is just another way for saying that "We hear the sound of the wind/Holy Spirit!"

Of course there were those religious groups back then (Pharisees and Sadducees) which felt they knew about about God and were trying to teach everyone what they knew (their own understanding) as opposed to actually hearing the words of the Lord. And since there is nothing new under the sun, there are going to be those types today also.

Jn 8:23 And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.

Jn 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

One of the interesting things about hearing from the Lord personally is that while He often talks in parables and saying He never comes across religious!! I mean - just look at the words Jesus said in general. Is there anything like "Baptismal regeneration"? Yeah- You can find things about baptizing but even those things are not said like ""Baptismal regeneration"!

1 Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

I think the above verse - with it's "not in cleverness of speech" best describes how He asks me to preaching the good new - which is that we can get to know the King of kings (Jesus Christ) personally, and thus also come to know about the kingdom of God (His Kingdom). That happens when you hear the sound of the wind/Holy Spirit.

 

[theefaith]

the wind is just air?????

This is the sad part - that we have no understanding!

If the wind talked about in Jn 3 is just air then everyone with physical ears who can pick up sound waves is born again!!!!

Ps 78:1,2 A Maskil of Asaph.
Listen, O my people, to my instruction;
Incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
I will open my mouth in a parable;
I will utter dark sayings of old,

The Lord speaks to us in parables and saying, and that because with our ears we don't hear!! Of course we all have physical ears which we can and do hear with! So if Jesus was talking about our physical ears then we are are born again. Yet that is not true otherwise this is not an issue, and besides Jesus went into an explanation about the Spirit and the kingdom of God.

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

So we are talking about who if you are born again you will hear with your spiritual ears and know that the kingdom of God (which includes Father, Son, and Spirit, along with the hosts of heaven) is spiritual!!!

Jn 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.


Now if anyone knows the Lord Jesus Christ they know Him because they hear His words that come from His Holy Spirit!!

His words to us are often called "the small voice" in the church today. Some Christians like to call it the spoken word. The profits of old used to just call His voice "The Word of God" which to them was Him - just talking to them.

So that is hearing the sound of the wind, and those who know Him testify about Him because they hear His Holy Spirit bring His words to our spirit. So it is that the Word of God we preach is found in our heart and sometimes in our mouth - because we have been born of the Spirit - which is just another way for saying that "We hear the sound of the wind/Holy Spirit!"

Of course there were those religious groups back then (Pharisees and Sadducees) which felt they knew about about God and were trying to teach everyone what they knew (their own understanding) as opposed to actually hearing the words of the Lord. And since there is nothing new under the sun, there are going to be those types today also.

Jn 8:23 And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.

Jn 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

One of the interesting things about hearing from the Lord personally is that while He often talks in parables and saying He never comes across religious!! I mean - just look at the words Jesus said in general. Is there anything like "Baptismal regeneration"? Yeah- You can find things about baptizing but even those things are not said like ""Baptismal regeneration"!

1 Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

I think the above verse - with it's "not in cleverness of speech" best describes how He asks me to preaching the good new - which is that we can get to know the King of kings (Jesus Christ) personally, and thus also come to know about the kingdom of God (His Kingdom). That happens when you hear the sound of the wind/Holy Spirit.

explain verse 22

Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism / water)

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptismal regeneration!

 

[Karl Peters]

explain verse 22

Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism / water)

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptismal regeneration!

First of all is being born the same thing as being baptized????

Answer of course is "No"

God created the heavens and then the earth - so we have the spiritual or heavenly realm and we have the physical or earthly realm. Jesus told Pilot that His kingdom was not of this realm! God is spirit so of course His realm is spiritual! Yet we see that He has similar patterns in the making of the two realms. So we have a pattern of being born and then later a pattern of being baptized. As you noted: John said He baptized with water but also said that One would come after him who would baptized with the Spirit and fire. So we even have multiple baptisms. (Mat 3:11) One ( at least one because some call a dedication a baby baptism) in the physical and a couple by the Lord. None of those are considered the birth or being born!!!!

So thinking that being born again is a baptism is just faulty thinking. So Born again does not mean Baptismal regeneration!!!!

The fact is that being born again mean you will hear the sound of the wind (meaning what is going on in the spiritual/heaven realm) And since faith comes from hearing, that is when you get the faith in Jesus Christ. We are saved by faith. That of course happens when a person opens up to Jesus Christ. The "Good News" is that He is just standing there knocking with His voice hoping that someone/anyone will hear His voice and open up to Him!! If they do He will come into them and will eat/talk with them and them with Him. He coming into you makes you a new creature / born again!!

You become a new creature in Him or with Him in your life, because while before you did not have Him in (and I mean "in") your life - you now do. That does not mean that you are actually baptized by Him at that point. It does mean that a seed (Jesus Christ whose name is called the Word of God because He talks to you via His Holy Spirit) is not planted in you. So you are no longer a creature made up of your body, soul, and spirit, but you also have His Holy Spirit! But are you baptized (energized) by the Holy Spirit at that point? Of have you been baptized (energized) by the first of God at that point? Perhaps the seed dies in you. We did read the parable of the sower did we not?

So it was that Jesus could tell the man next to Him on the cross that he would be with Jesus in heaven, but where was that baptism? The man just had gotten faith. Yet what of Abram, Isaac, Jacob, the prophets of Old, and even John the Baptist? Did they not have faith yet John said that One came after Him that would baptize with the Spirit and fire. So it is possible to have a believer that has not yet been energized/Baptised/ immersed in the Spirit. Just like it is possible to find a physical person who has not yet been dedicated of baptized with water!!

All too often I find Christians who tell me that they think they may have heard that small voice of the Lord once or twice in their lives but they do not hear Him on those days called "Today"!!! Are they immersed in the Spirit? How dedicated are they to the Lord. I am not sure that type of faith will ultimately save them. But that is not my called, so it must be a question!

Jas 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Now the tongues came down like fire, but that was for the dedicated believers!! So the belief and dedication came before the fire! So we see over and over true examples of belief and then baptism - both in the physical and spiritual - and you some think they are one in the same!! It is just a poor understanding! Indeed, what did they see in their own lives?? Jesus Christ is the true, and so when we actually are listening to Him (say as opposed to a religious spirit) what He says matches up with what actually is happening - even what happened with you.

When I was about ten, while a church, I felt something perhaps like a gentle blowing in my spirit, so I went up when the pastor ask people to come forward. I went forward, got baptized with water and felt nothing afterwards. I never heard that small voice of the Lord. It was about 30 years later when a voice told me, "Read Your Bible". Then I believed in God! He was real after that but how real? I read the Bible and it took eight or nine months. Spiritual things began to happen but I still was not actually hearing that small voice of the Lord. That changed after I finished reading the Bible. Indeed I was praying for the gift of tongues when I next heard something like someone saying 'Your not ready yet." So I responded to that voice saying, "Make me ready", and prayed again for it a couple of days later. After all how long does God need to make a person ready. That night the fire came. I was woken up in the middle of the night and it felt like a bug went down my throat, but when it got to my heart my heart burst into fire - a spiritual fire that felt not so unlike a bad case of heart burn. I had gotten the gift of tongues - the baptism of fire and also started to figure out that I might be able to have conversations with Him. So I checked that out while driving to work one day shortly afterwards. And I found out that Him and I could have conversations regularly - on everyday called "Today". So I became immersed in talking with Him daily.

Becoming a Christians and growing in a Christian life lead by Jesus Christ is a process. It is the same type of process that we see with developing a relationship!! And even a baby after born has still to develop a relationship with the parents!! The water baptism does not come at the birth does it. Depending on the thinking, a dedication might follow soon, but when does the babies choice come?

We see the physical and can't make the connection that God made the heavens and the earth, so we miss the pattern the Truth made!!

 

[theefaith]

Did not answer my question

Disciples or Christians are made by baptism

Matt 28:19-20


God says baptism! Ez 36:25:27
Jesus Christ says baptism! Mk 16:16
Peter says baptism! Acts 3:38 1 Pet 3:21
Paul say baptism! 1 cor 1:16 1 cor 12:13
The apostles say baptism! Acts 2:38 acts 8:36-38
For 2000 yrs the church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles has always taught baptism per matt 28:19

Jn 10:10 life more abundantly

Eph 4: 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Jn 1:16-17 grace life


Ez 36:25-27 promise of justification by washing away sins by virtue the merits of Christ blood, sanctified by the grace of God, given a new heart of love by the Holy Spirit!


Acts 8
Philip preached Jesus to the eunuch!

Obviously Philip preached “FACAGA”
Faith alone Christ alone grace alone

How did the eunuch know about baptism?

Why did the eunuch so greatly desire baptism?
(If it’s only symbolic, an outward sign)

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

————————-

Born again!

“Faith Alone”

Or

“Baptismal regeneration” is the initiation into the new covenant!

Christian baptism is an outward sign of the inward action of grace, or merits of Christ’s passion blood and death applied to our souls!

Metaphorical or implied meaning of baptism!

John 19:34
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

The blood signifies the infinite merits of Christ!
The water signifies baptism!

Old Testament pre-figures of baptism.

Psalm 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

Psalm 36:9
For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light.

Song of Solomon 4:15
A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon.

Isaiah 41:18
I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.

Isaiah 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations;

Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

1 pet 3:20-21

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

New Testament

Matt 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

( Disciples by baptism not faith alone)

Mk 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Mark 16:16
he who believes and is baptized shall be saved!

Jn 1: 11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (Baptism)

John 1:26
John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6
And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)

John3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22
After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)

John 4:4
When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Act 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.(Baptism)

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
(Saved by baptism)

Acts 8:36
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Philip preached Jesus and the result is justification by baptism!

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

1 Corinthians 1:2
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:5 
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Gal 4:19
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (baptism)

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

1 Jn 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1 Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[theefaith]

(Born of God) faith and baptism

Jn 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Born of God by baptism

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: see Ez 36

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (baptism rom 6:3-4)


1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

 

[theefaith]

Becoming a Disciple by baptism!

Matt 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
(Born again by baptism)

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark none were saved, outside the church none are saved)
The church is the ark of salvation!

 

[theefaith]

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

 

[Karl Peters]

Did not answer my question

Disciples or Christians are made by baptism

The topic was "Born Again" not baptism!!!! But perhaps someone is confused?

Christians are not made by baptism!! Christian are made by Jesus Christ!! In fact all people are made by Jesus Christ because all things were created through Him!

Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

So Christian are not made by baptism!!!

Now putting down a thousand verses does not mean a person understands them

Now we are saved by faith!!

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

There is no mentioned of "baptism" in the above verse so we are saved by faith, period!!

Isa the saved by faith person going to be baptism / immersed in the Spirit? Yes! It is going to happen. Jesus Christ is going to make it happened so Peter added

Eoh 1:13 Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Now the above verse, with a whole lot more, were quickly thrown out in the above couple of post without explanation, as if posting a verse, any verse and many of them makes a persons own thinking correct. Do we see the "after listening to the message of truth"?

Jesus Christ is the truth and so listening to His message to you, which is hearing by faith, is done before the sealing by baptism!!! Again, that is "before and the baptism the sealing by baptism later. So it's the birth or born again first and the baptism later - which is exactly what we see in the physical realm also. Therefore the birth or being born again is not the baptism,!!! Someone is confused!

And you will also notice that it comes after the "listening" to the truth and not at the same time or before!!!

Faith comes from hearing, so it is that your salvation come from hearing the Lord. So the Christian is born again, then will be sealed later, after listening to the Lord Jesus Christ who is the truth and Word of God because He talks to us via His Holy Spirit. Yet just because someone has head from the Lord via the Holy Spirit does not mean that they have yet been immersed/baptized in the Holy Spirit!!! God is omni-present, so the Holy Spirit is always around you and that is why we read that Jesus Christ is just standing there knocking with His voice!


Rev 3:20 ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

A Christian then is any person who has opened up to Jesus Christ and lets Him into their life so that they start talking with Him!! And that is why we read the explanation of being born again by Jesus to be,:

Jn 3:8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Again we read about the hearing or listening connected to being born of the Spirit but note" it does not read "baptized"!!! That comes after - according to the very verse that was used, along with a large number of others just thrown out to us, to try and support that baptism does not come afterward. We actually need to read the verses we post and consider what they say. It is a good idea to talk to the Lord about them also. Now certain Jesus, once you start getting to know Him is going to get you immersed/baptized/sealed in the Holy Spirit, but after you get to talking with Him first!! So it is not incorrect to say that a Christian is saved by faith and baptized, but there is still an order to the events and the events are separate events!! Being born again, means you hear the sound of the wind/Holy Spirit. Being baptized in the Spirit means you get immersed in Him but Jesus Christ! And this thread was not about being baptized in the Spirit but about being "Born Again" - two separate events~~

Did we not notice in the story about Noah that the Lord first had to talk to Noah and have him build the ark before being sealed up in it? Faith comes before the baptism!!!!

 

[theefaith]

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

There is no mentioned of "baptism" in the above verse so we are saved by faith, period!!

must believe all he did and taught and all his church teaches
Christ and his church are one acts 9:4
Faith and baptism Mk 16:16

It never says faith alone!

 

[Karl Peters]

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

There is no mentioned of "baptism" in the above verse so we are saved by faith, period!!

must believe all he did and taught and all his church teaches
Christ and his church are one acts 9:4
Faith and baptism Mk 16:16

It never says faith alone!

Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

YEAH - there it is - "faith alone". And I can bring up a number of other verses

But if you just look at those two verses and put them into logic equations they would read something like"

Faith = Salvation
and
Faith + Baptism = Salvation

or to shorten them

F = S
F + B = S

Both those equations can be true if B = 0!

So Baptism is not the determining factor at all. So why mention it at all?

Well that is obvious. It is something that will happen if you come to have faith. Yet it is still a separate event - just like water baptism is a separate event in a persons like, so is baptism in the Spirit a separate event in a Christians life. An expected one, to me sure, but still a separate event. New, born again Christians, are not already baptized in the Spirit anymore than new babies come baptized in water.

Now the Holy Spirit is omni-present. That is an attribute of God - that He exists everywhere. So it is that the Lord can and is just standing there speaking to us (all people) all through the day. It is written that He holds all things together with His hands, and to hold things together with your hands you hands have to be present. So why don't people hear from Him everyday? The answer is that they don't listen. And we see this over and over in the Bible!

Mat 13:15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES

The sad part is that the above was written to a people that were called His people. Christians today are just such a people also. For soo many it is also try that the heart of Christians have become dull, so that with their ears they scarcely hear!

Nicodemus, back then, was just such a person! So it was that Jesus explained to the very zealous and religious Pharisess Nicodemus about being born again and that being born again would mean that you hear the sound of the wind! We are not talking physical ears but your spiritual ears. Jesus also explained that those born again would testify about this!!!

And indeed, I loved giving testimonies about the things I hear with my spiritual ears. Things like that equation above. I went on a walk together and were discussing this thread and He was the One who pointed out the two logic in the two equations and why the two verses. Just like He had to give Nicodemus the explanation about being born again and that meaning hearing the sound of the wind - we need to think about where we actually stand with the Lord. Are we hearing from Him everyday called "Today". Have we chosen to immerse ourselves in the Holy Spirit?

You faith comes from hearing, and so a saved person has heard from the Lord. Even the person in the pew that decides to go forward at an alter call does so because the Holy Spirit is speaking to their heart and they pick up the sound of the wind/Holy Spirit. Yet that certainly does not mean they have chosen to immerse themselves in God!!!

It does not mean they have decided to talk to the Lord regularly to see what He thinks. They might actually just be religious like Nicodemus ? They might consider themselves to be a teacher of the Law and not actually be listening to what the Lord tells them via the Holy Spirit!

My friends, if you don't practices listening to the Lord but only do so on rare occasions then perhaps you are still saved. I don't know whether a particular person is or isn't. That is between the Lord and them. But if you are immersed in the Holy Spirit you are going to be hearing from him "Today"!!! Simply because God is omni-present and does hold things together with His hands. And if you have indeed heard from the Lord you are going to wind up either getting immersed in His Holy Spirit or you are simply going to reject Him period. You can reject Him and still be religious by turning back to your own understanding of the Scriptures as opposed to seeking Him and His voice "Today".

 

[theefaith]

Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

YEAH - there it is - "faith alone". And I can bring up a number of other verses

But if you just look at those two verses and put them into logic equations they would read something like"

Faith = Salvation
and
Faith + Baptism = Salvation

or to shorten them

F = S
F + B = S

Both those equations can be true if B = 0!

So Baptism is not the determining factor at all. So why mention it at all?

Well that is obvious. It is something that will happen if you come to have faith. Yet it is still a separate event - just like water baptism is a separate event in a persons like, so is baptism in the Spirit a separate event in a Christians life. An expected one, to me sure, but still a separate event. New, born again Christians, are not already baptized in the Spirit anymore than new babies come baptized in water.

Now the Holy Spirit is omni-present. That is an attribute of God - that He exists everywhere. So it is that the Lord can and is just standing there speaking to us (all people) all through the day. It is written that He holds all things together with His hands, and to hold things together with your hands you hands have to be present. So why don't people hear from Him everyday? The answer is that they don't listen. And we see this over and over in the Bible!

Mat 13:15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES

The sad part is that the above was written to a people that were called His people. Christians today are just such a people also. For soo many it is also try that the heart of Christians have become dull, so that with their ears they scarcely hear!

Nicodemus, back then, was just such a person! So it was that Jesus explained to the very zealous and religious Pharisess Nicodemus about being born again and that being born again would mean that you hear the sound of the wind! We are not talking physical ears but your spiritual ears. Jesus also explained that those born again would testify about this!!!

And indeed, I loved giving testimonies about the things I hear with my spiritual ears. Things like that equation above. I went on a walk together and were discussing this thread and He was the One who pointed out the two logic in the two equations and why the two verses. Just like He had to give Nicodemus the explanation about being born again and that meaning hearing the sound of the wind - we need to think about where we actually stand with the Lord. Are we hearing from Him everyday called "Today". Have we chosen to immerse ourselves in the Holy Spirit?

You faith comes from hearing, and so a saved person has heard from the Lord. Even the person in the pew that decides to go forward at an alter call does so because the Holy Spirit is speaking to their heart and they pick up the sound of the wind/Holy Spirit. Yet that certainly does not mean they have chosen to immerse themselves in God!!!

It does not mean they have decided to talk to the Lord regularly to see what He thinks. They might actually just be religious like Nicodemus ? They might consider themselves to be a teacher of the Law and not actually be listening to what the Lord tells them via the Holy Spirit!

My friends, if you don't practices listening to the Lord but only do so on rare occasions then perhaps you are still saved. I don't know whether a particular person is or isn't. That is between the Lord and them. But if you are immersed in the Holy Spirit you are going to be hearing from him "Today"!!! Simply because God is omni-present and does hold things together with His hands. And if you have indeed heard from the Lord you are going to wind up either getting immersed in His Holy Spirit or you are simply going to reject Him period. You can reject Him and still be religious by turning back to your own understanding of the Scriptures as opposed to seeking Him and His voice "Today".

1 cor 13:2 “all faith” without charity avails nothing!

have you put on Christ?

what is the promise of the father?

 

[Karl Peters]

1 cor 13:2 “all faith” without charity avails nothing!

have you put on Christ?

what is the promise of the father?

We are saved by faith - as proven by the Scriptures - yet what does a person's faith do to help others? The answer is much indeed!! Simply because if you have faith in Jesus Christ He has you do things - things which help others!! Helping others can mean reproof!!

Rev 3:19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

So it is that Jesus reproved the Pharisees concerning hearing the words of God.

Jn 8:37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.

So have you put on Christ? If so you will hear His words. If so you will understand the importance that other seek Him and what He says to them! If so you will prove them as instructed because He loves them and you will do what He asks!

The work of God is that all should come to know the Son - and you get to know someone, even the Son of God, by spending time with them and talking back and forth! Of course that takes faith that He is their to be heard from. That faith in hearing Him is counted as righteousness to us. That hearing the wind is what it is like to be born again, as discussed!

Jesus reprove some by saying:

Jn 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

Do we hear His words? Which is the same thing as hearing the wind/ His Holy Spirit who come and speaks but not on His own initiative. So again - being born again means hearing the wind/ The Holy Spirit, and we will testify to that!

Jn 3:5 - 8 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. “Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Jn 3:10,11 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? “Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.

 

[theefaith]

We are saved by faith - as proven by the Scriptures - yet what does a person's faith do to help others? The answer is much indeed!! Simply because if you have faith in Jesus Christ He has you do things - things which help others!! Helping others can mean reproof!!

Rev 3:19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

So it is that Jesus reproved the Pharisees concerning hearing the words of God.

Jn 8:37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.

So have you put on Christ? If so you will hear His words. If so you will understand the importance that other seek Him and what He says to them! If so you will prove them as instructed because He loves them and you will do what He asks!

The work of God is that all should come to know the Son - and you get to know someone, even the Son of God, by spending time with them and talking back and forth! Of course that takes faith that He is their to be heard from. That faith in hearing Him is counted as righteousness to us. That hearing the wind is what it is like to be born again, as discussed!

Jesus reprove some by saying:

Jn 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

Do we hear His words? Which is the same thing as hearing the wind/ His Holy Spirit who come and speaks but not on His own initiative. So again - being born again means hearing the wind/ The Holy Spirit, and we will testify to that!

Jn 3:5 - 8 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. “Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Jn 3:10,11 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? “Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.

not by faith alone
Faith and baptism Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-37
Put in Christ by baptism gal 3:27
Wash away sins by baptism acts 22:16


It’s not a bible study!
It’s a covenant!

Not by “faith alone”
“Faith alone” not biblical
“Faith alone” never given in prophesy in the OT.
You may think “Accept Jesus Christ as you personal Lord and savior” is biblical but there is no such verse in your bible!

Faith and the sacraments in the church founded by the authority Christ on Peter and the apostles is biblical!

Faith and baptism is the biblical initiation into the new covenant and member is Christ and His holy church!
Ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

You cannot enter a covenant by “faith alone” must be a ritual outward sign!
Faith and baptism! Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

Merits of christ’s passion, death, and precious blood are applied in the sacraments! Jn 1:16

Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Lk 1: 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 1:18 & Jn 10:16 one fold

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Christ and His church are one: acts 9 why persecute me?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Sacraments are the fruit of the sacrifice!
The holy sacrifice of Christ, His passion, blood, and death producing unlimited fruits of divine grace, actual and sanctifying grace! Jn 1:29 Jn 1:16-17 Jn 10:10


“This promise” (sacred oath of God or sacrament) of the Father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27 Also a mystery Mk 4:11 Eph 5:32 eph 6:19 1 Tim 3:9 3:16 Col 1:27 2:2 4:3

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Heb 7:21 For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
(Oath = sacrament)

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises

2 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Life of supernatural grace merited by Christ in His passion and death!

An oath to sacramental life in the new covenant in union with the mediator and communion with God, and the saints!

Promise of the Father acts 2:23-39
Promise is an oath and an oath is a sacrament! This promise of the sacrament of baptism refers to ez. 36:25-27

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

Jn 1:5-5 abide in Him, apart from Him you can do nothing.

Jn 10:10 life, (grace more abundantly)
Jn 1: 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Jn 1:16-17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
(Thru the sacraments!)