WE NEED TO BE BORN AGAIN.

[Karl Peters]

Sealed by God eph 1:13 in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Notice the verse above - It reads "having also believed"!! So there is a belief that comes first!!

In fact go a bit back in that verse and notice "after listening to the message of truth" and then, "the gospel of your salvation" - so the listening to the Lord is the goods news of our salvation and that means having also believed, and all that before any sealing in Him with the promise ( promise being something you are going to receive later)

Jesus Christ is the Truth so it means after listening to a message of Jesus Christ's. It is written that faith comes from hearing and hearing by a word of Christ's.

Rom 10: 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

That faith alone results in the good news of salvation!!! and then having believed and gotten that good news of salvation there is a promise (something going to be given) which is the sealing in Him with the Holy Spirit.

We should be able to read the verses and come to the correct interpretation, with the correct order of events, and the correct understanding - but the fact is that students do usually need the Teacher to help them understand!! So if you don't' listen to the Teacher you are not going to understand. Indeed, if you don't listen to the Teacher (Jesus Christ) then it is a clear sign that you don't have the faith that results in the good new of salvations - because that comes by faith and faith by hearing the Teacher and Savior who is the Christ.

We need to quit leaning on our own understanding and start listening to our Lord and Teacher Jesus Christ. That alone gets us the faith, the gospel of our salvation - and then once we believe we will get the promise (that He said He would give to us - the Holy Spirit) Yet is that even the baptism (the being immersed in the Spirit)? It didn't read 'baptism' in those verses quoted. So we have a jump in logic - in fact lots of jumps in logic as already pointed out.

The fact is that people start picking up the Lord and they make a decision for Him. Often we see that at an altar call. Yet we also see that many responding to that altar call does seem to progress as Christians. Maybe later God does get a hold of them, using that decision they make for Him, He might talk to them further and set up circumstances to draw them back in. Sometime we do actually see someone accept the Lord and quickly move from that state to a rea dedication to get to know the Lord - of course we also see some turn to a real dedication to the Christian religion as opposed to actually seeking Him. It is more like they are sealed in the church instead of sealed in Him! They become like the Pharisees and Sadducees and seek after religious recognition instead of actually pointing people to our Lord Jesus Christ. People - seek Him - get to know Him!! He will talk to you about your Bible. He will teacher you and show you things. And He does indeed have the promise of being sealed in Him via the Holy Spirit - and you can also choose to get immersed in Him and the heavenly things He has for you, because He is the King of kings meaning He has a Kingdom, which you can go into and out of.

Jn 10:9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

 

[theefaith]

Acts 16:31 "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house"

Why don’t you?

believe all He and His church teaches
Start with Mk 16:16 he who believes and is baptized shall be saved!

 

[theefaith]

Actually it reads:
Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were)

Of course it is talking about water baptism and Jesus is still baptizing - although not Jesus Himself but His disciples - but I am not sure what your point is?

you said disciples are not made by baptism matt 28:19-20 and Jn 4:1 say they are

Jesus already prepares His apostles to continue His mission with His power (binding and loosing) and with His authority (keys) matt 16:18 matt 18:18

Same mission, power, and authority Jn 20:21-23

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

John 4:1 when therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John...
Jn 4:2 Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples

Here we see Jesus delegating to His successors, Peter and the apostles!

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing

There can be no unity of the spirit without obedience to the faith! Rom 1:5 eph 4:3

Matt 28 I am with you (the apostles)

The papacy based on Matt 16:18 and Isa 22:21-22

Matt 16:18-19
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Isa 22:21-22
21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Behold I am with you (the successors or the apostles until the end of the world,so the successors of the apostles must remain until the end of the world) matt 28:19

 

[theefaith]

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Notice the verse above - It reads "having also believed"!! So there is a belief that comes first!!

In fact go a bit back in that verse and notice "after listening to the message of truth" and then, "the gospel of your salvation" - so the listening to the Lord is the goods news of our salvation and that means having also believed, and all that before any sealing in Him with the promise ( promise being something you are going to receive later)

Jesus Christ is the Truth so it means after listening to a message of Jesus Christ's. It is written that faith comes from hearing and hearing by a word of Christ's.

Rom 10: 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

That faith alone results in the good news of salvation!!! and then having believed and gotten that good news of salvation there is a promise (something going to be given) which is the sealing in Him with the Holy Spirit.

We should be able to read the verses and come to the correct interpretation, with the correct order of events, and the correct understanding - but the fact is that students do usually need the Teacher to help them understand!! So if you don't' listen to the Teacher you are not going to understand. Indeed, if you don't listen to the Teacher (Jesus Christ) then it is a clear sign that you don't have the faith that results in the good new of salvations - because that comes by faith and faith by hearing the Teacher and Savior who is the Christ.

We need to quit leaning on our own understanding and start listening to our Lord and Teacher Jesus Christ. That alone gets us the faith, the gospel of our salvation - and then once we believe we will get the promise (that He said He would give to us - the Holy Spirit) Yet is that even the baptism (the being immersed in the Spirit)? It didn't read 'baptism' in those verses quoted. So we have a jump in logic - in fact lots of jumps in logic as already pointed out.

The fact is that people start picking up the Lord and they make a decision for Him. Often we see that at an altar call. Yet we also see that many responding to that altar call does seem to progress as Christians. Maybe later God does get a hold of them, using that decision they make for Him, He might talk to them further and set up circumstances to draw them back in. Sometime we do actually see someone accept the Lord and quickly move from that state to a rea dedication to get to know the Lord - of course we also see some turn to a real dedication to the Christian religion as opposed to actually seeking Him. It is more like they are sealed in the church instead of sealed in Him! They become like the Pharisees and Sadducees and seek after religious recognition instead of actually pointing people to our Lord Jesus Christ. People - seek Him - get to know Him!! He will talk to you about your Bible. He will teacher you and show you things. And He does indeed have the promise of being sealed in Him via the Holy Spirit - and you can also choose to get immersed in Him and the heavenly things He has for you, because He is the King of kings meaning He has a Kingdom, which you can go into and out of.

Jn 10:9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

faith and baptism Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38
Notice: Holy Spirit of PROMISE!
Acts 2:38-39 the promise of the father

Here’s the promise!!

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

baptismal regeneration

 

[theefaith]

Non-biblical evidence for born again is baptismal regeneration

Church fathers

A) "It does not suffice to believe. He who believes and is not yet baptized, but is only a Catechumen, has not yet fully acquired salvation." St. Thomas Aquinas

B) "Now, even the Catechumen believes in the Cross of the Lord Jesus, but unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, he cannot receive remission of his sins nor the gift of spiritual grace." St. Ambrose

C) "Without the Sacrament of Baptism, no one is ever justified. If anyone says that Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema." Council of Trent

D)
“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).
St. AUGUSTINE

E) “As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
JUSTIN MARTYR

TERTULLIAN
“Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and.asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!” (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

“Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (ibid., 12).

ORIGEN
“It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism” (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

CYRIL OF JERUSALEM
“If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation.

St. AUGUSTINE
“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).

POPE LEO I
“And because of the transgression of the first man, the whole stock of the human race was tainted; no one can be set free from the state of the old Adam save through Christ’s sacrament of baptism, in which there are no distinctions between the reborn, as the apostle [Paul] says, ‘For as many of you as were baptized in Christ did put on Christ; there is neither Jew nor Greek . . . ‘ [Gal. 3:27–28]” (Letters 15:10[11] [A.D. 445]).

FULGENTIUS OF RUSPE
“From that time at which our Savior said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], no one can, without the sacrament of baptism, except those who, in the Catholic Church, without baptism, pour out their blood for Christ, receive the kingdom of heaven and life eternal” (The Rule of Faith 43 [A.D. 524]).

Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; INFANTS, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an INFANT for INFANTS, sanctifying INFANTS; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus
Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).

Origen
THE CHURCH RECEIVED FROM THE APOSTLES the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The APOSTLES, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian
As to what pertains to the case of INFANTS: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

Augustine
It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that INFANT is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

 

[theefaith]

Refers to the teaching or doctrine of the apostles acts 2;42 matt 16:18-19 and 18:18 bound in heaven

 

[Karl Peters]

you said disciples are not made by baptism matt 28:19-20 and Jn 4:1 say they are

There is a massive post with lots of verses quoted attached to the above quote - as if the quoting of a verse (any verse) makes a person's own understanding of God correct. Are they?

I went over the above quoted verse before and obviously was ignored, because there were not comments about it, but just a reposting of the massive post. Anyway, let's take a look again to see if the above verses actually do support the thinking.

Mat 28:19-20 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

A disciple is a pupil or student. If a student comes to learn from the teacher, then they are a disciple!! So Jesus had disciples when He was in the flesh, but they were not the finished thing but were the students. They didn't need to be "baptized" to be a disciple! That is opposed to logical reasoning and opposed to the thinking in the thread attached to the quote above!

So disciples are not made by baptism, they are made by coming and listening to the Teacher - and in the case of Christian our Teacher is still Jesus Christ!!

So in the verse above (Mat 28:19) we read "God make disciples of all the nations..." -- That means that we are to go and get them to listen to our Teacher Jesus Christ!!!

As far as this thread about being "Born Again" that is consistent with being "Born Aain" because Jesus explained that person who is "Born Again" hears the sound of the wind - which we know is the Holy Spirit who speaks but not own initiative but as He hears He speaks - therefore the Holy Spirit hears the words of the Teacher (Jesus Christ the Word of God) and then speaks His words to our spirit.

Jn 16:13:14 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

So a disciple must hear the Holy Spirit with his spirit, but that does not yet they are yet even baptized (immersed) in the Holy Spirit, just as a new believer can be a new believer without having yet chosen to be baptized in water. There is also a decision to be more dedicated to God that we should make but few instantly make that decision. People are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, and that faith comes from hearing Him.

Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Now if we do hear Him, He is going to be asking us to make a greater decision and dedication to Him. Indeed, as those who have made that decision we promote it. Thus we also read in Mat 28:19 ..."baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you;

Thus the discipleship comes before the baptizing. and the teaching, and the doing as commanded.

So a new believer is saved (has eternal life) as soon as he or she becomes a disciple which means hearing from our Lord Jesus Christ. There is then more to follow, like baptism (Water, Spirit, and Fire), and getting teachings, and doing as commanded - yet those are things that follow and if anyone truly knows the Lord Jesus Christ they certainly know the teaching and doing as commanded just keeps on going on!! That is why we call Him Lord and Teacher.

This is all very simple understanding, so who doesn't understand this? Have we not heard from Him? Have we not even taken the time to study the verses we post?

Oh - also another verse was just thrown out in the quote:

Jn 4:1 Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John

What does that have to do with being born again? It wasn't mentioned by Jesus when He discussed being born again!! So there is absolutely no connection! Let's take a quick look at what Jesus explain to Nicodemus - you will note that baptism is not a part of it!!! Or maybe you won't and just prefer to lean on your own understanding? Now you might note that baptism came in chapter 4 which is after chapter 3. So again being born again comes first then in the next chapter of your life comes baptism! There might be a little understanding in noticing that!

Jn 3: 1-12 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. “Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? “Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. “If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Check it out - baptism is not mentioned anywhere above!! It about being born and that of the Spirit - not about being baptized in water, Spirit, or fire! If you are born of the Spirit you now have ears( spiritual ears) to hear. The fact that the Pharisee Nicodemus did not understand this meant that he was not 'born again". I have trouble telling many (even Christians) about hearing the Lord. I can testify about Him and the things He tells me, but many just don't seem to be able to accept my testimony. Again, the first words a heard from Him were "Read Your Bible", so I did. But even doing that did not instantly mean I was that dedicated to Him or was 'immersed' in the Holy Spirit. I just started reading the Bible because I was told to. It took nine months to finish it, and more and more things kept happening, and I learned to hear Him better and better. I then got to know Him and He kept teaching me. He then started asking me to do things for Him, like quit my job and open up a Christian bookstore for Him, and many many other things. I really started getting into Him and immersing myself in Him. I got baptized in water at the church I decided to go to first. It was at least 3 months from those first words before I even went to church, and another 8 months before I got baptized in water. That church did do what the Lord asked in Mat 28: 19-20 but it is a process and my salvation came when my believe came, and that when I heard those first words from Him via the Holy Spirit saying "Read Your Bible". I was born again then, and heard the sound of the wind then! The baptism was in the next chapter of my life!

How do we have such a poor understanding of this? We are not like Nicodemus the Pharisee are we? We actually do hear from Him, right? Then we must testify about Him, right? But who accepts our testimony?

 

[theefaith]

There is a massive post with lots of verses quoted attached to the above quote - as if the quoting of a verse (any verse) makes a person's own understanding of God correct. Are they?

I went over the above quoted verse before and obviously was ignored, because there were not comments about it, but just a reposting of the massive post. Anyway, let's take a look again to see if the above verses actually do support the thinking.

Mat 28:19-20 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

A disciple is a pupil or student. If a student comes to learn from the teacher, then they are a disciple!! So Jesus had disciples when He was in the flesh, but they were not the finished thing but were the students. They didn't need to be "baptized" to be a disciple! That is opposed to logical reasoning and opposed to the thinking in the thread attached to the quote above!

So disciples are not made by baptism, they are made by coming and listening to the Teacher - and in the case of Christian our Teacher is still Jesus Christ!!

So in the verse above (Mat 28:19) we read "God make disciples of all the nations..." -- That means that we are to go and get them to listen to our Teacher Jesus Christ!!!

As far as this thread about being "Born Again" that is consistent with being "Born Aain" because Jesus explained that person who is "Born Again" hears the sound of the wind - which we know is the Holy Spirit who speaks but not own initiative but as He hears He speaks - therefore the Holy Spirit hears the words of the Teacher (Jesus Christ the Word of God) and then speaks His words to our spirit.

Jn 16:13:14 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

So a disciple must hear the Holy Spirit with his spirit, but that does not yet they are yet even baptized (immersed) in the Holy Spirit, just as a new believer can be a new believer without having yet chosen to be baptized in water. There is also a decision to be more dedicated to God that we should make but few instantly make that decision. People are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, and that faith comes from hearing Him.

Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Now if we do hear Him, He is going to be asking us to make a greater decision and dedication to Him. Indeed, as those who have made that decision we promote it. Thus we also read in Mat 28:19 ..."baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you;

Thus the discipleship comes before the baptizing. and the teaching, and the doing as commanded.

So a new believer is saved (has eternal life) as soon as he or she becomes a disciple which means hearing from our Lord Jesus Christ. There is then more to follow, like baptism (Water, Spirit, and Fire), and getting teachings, and doing as commanded - yet those are things that follow and if anyone truly knows the Lord Jesus Christ they certainly know the teaching and doing as commanded just keeps on going on!! That is why we call Him Lord and Teacher.

This is all very simple understanding, so who doesn't understand this? Have we not heard from Him? Have we not even taken the time to study the verses we post?

Oh - also another verse was just thrown out in the quote:

Jn 4:1 Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John

What does that have to do with being born again? It wasn't mentioned by Jesus when He discussed being born again!! So there is absolutely no connection! Let's take a quick look at what Jesus explain to Nicodemus - you will note that baptism is not a part of it!!! Or maybe you won't and just prefer to lean on your own understanding? Now you might note that baptism came in chapter 4 which is after chapter 3. So again being born again comes first then in the next chapter of your life comes baptism! There might be a little understanding in noticing that!

Jn 3: 1-12 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. “Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? “Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. “If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Check it out - baptism is not mentioned anywhere above!! It about being born and that of the Spirit - not about being baptized in water, Spirit, or fire! If you are born of the Spirit you now have ears( spiritual ears) to hear. The fact that the Pharisee Nicodemus did not understand this meant that he was not 'born again". I have trouble telling many (even Christians) about hearing the Lord. I can testify about Him and the things He tells me, but many just don't seem to be able to accept my testimony. Again, the first words a heard from Him were "Read Your Bible", so I did. But even doing that did not instantly mean I was that dedicated to Him or was 'immersed' in the Holy Spirit. I just started reading the Bible because I was told to. It took nine months to finish it, and more and more things kept happening, and I learned to hear Him better and better. I then got to know Him and He kept teaching me. He then started asking me to do things for Him, like quit my job and open up a Christian bookstore for Him, and many many other things. I really started getting into Him and immersing myself in Him. I got baptized in water at the church I decided to go to first. It was at least 3 months from those first words before I even went to church, and another 8 months before I got baptized in water. That church did do what the Lord asked in Mat 28: 19-20 but it is a process and my salvation came when my believe came, and that when I heard those first words from Him via the Holy Spirit saying "Read Your Bible". I was born again then, and heard the sound of the wind then! The baptism was in the next chapter of my life!

How do we have such a poor understanding of this? We are not like Nicodemus the Pharisee are we? We actually do hear from Him, right? Then we must testify about Him, right? But who accepts our testimony?

Its not a bible study
It’s a covenant and baptism is required

 

[Karl Peters]

Its not a bible study
It’s a covenant and baptism is required

This is a Christian Forum, and so comments should make sense even according to the Bible.

As for the covenant - a baptism is not required, but it comes from hearing the Lord and believing in Him - as shown in the Bible.

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Gen 15:8 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

You know what word is not mentioned in Genesis chapter 15? Baptism is not mentioned. A sacrifice was made, but not a baptism. And a sacrifice has been made so that we might hear from the Lord and so that our sins might be forgiven. Yet who believes and listens to Him by faith? And are there not still those religious people who have made it about their understanding instead of actually seeking the Lord. I tell you even if a person gets baptized and say they are committed to the Lord Jesus Christ yet don't listen to Him by faith they have no part in Him. Yet as for the person who listens to Him by faith and believes He is the Lord like Abram, so that they do what their Lord tells them, even though they don't get baptized, they will be saved by Him.

My friends - it is about getting to know personally the Lord your God, Jesus Christ!! It is not about your religion, which is your understanding of God. It is about your relationship with Him. Is He your Lord? If so, you hear from Him - as in you hearing the sound of the wind - and that you testify to.

Jn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

You indeed, must be born again - and that means you hear Him via His Holy Spirit who speaks His words to your spirit! Everyone who is born of the Spirit hears from Him and those who believe in Him, like Abram, will be saved! That is what we testify to! And saying that is not a Bible study, it is knowing the Lord Jesus Christ personally!

Jn 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

We know Jesus Christ. We hear from Him via His Holy Spirit who speaks to us only what He hears (Jn 16:16)

Jn 3:16 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Hearing from Him does not mean you won't get baptized, or that we shouldn't baptize people in His name. Nor does it not mean that He won't baptize you in the Spirit and fire, but we are saved by faith and faith (a belief that He is the Lord) means that you hear Him like Abram and believe in the Lord. That is counted to you as righteousness. The Lord our God is not going to send a righteous man to hell, not that any of us are righteous, but being counted by Him as righteous because we hear from Him and believe along with His personal sacrifice for our sins means we get eternal life.

Therefore, baptize people so they might be be more dedicated to the Lord. Still the important part is that they get to know the Lord personally by listening to Him and believing! The covenant, baptisms, and all the other things like the teachings, instruction, gifts... follow after the belief in Him. Yet some don't actually listen to Him, even though they consider themselves teachers of the law,

Jn 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?

 

[theefaith]

This is a Christian Forum, and so comments should make sense even according to the Bible.

The rule of faith or source of truth for Christians is Christ! Not the “Bible alone”

As for the covenant - a baptism is not required, but it comes from hearing the Lord and believing in Him - as shown in the Bible.

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Gen 15:8 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

You know what word is not mentioned in Genesis chapter 15? Baptism is not mentioned. A sacrifice was made, but not a baptism. And a sacrifice has been made so that we might hear from the Lord and so that our sins might be forgiven. Yet who believes and listens to Him by faith? And are there not still those religious people who have made it about their understanding instead of actually seeking the Lord. I tell you even if a person gets baptized and say they are committed to the Lord Jesus Christ yet don't listen to Him by faith they have no part in Him. Yet as for the person who listens to Him by faith and believes He is the Lord like Abram, so that they do what their Lord tells them, even though they don't get baptized, they will be saved by Him.

mk 16:16 acts 2:23-39 (promise? Ez 36:25-27) acts 8:36-38 1 pet 3:20-21

saved really?


matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

1. Romans 11:22 – God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness

2. Colossians 1:21-23 – holy and blameless, if you continue in the faith"

3. The race of faith: the example of Paul

4. Hebrews 12:22-25: "we shall not escape if we turn away from Him"

5. Hebrews 4:1-3, 9-12: "strive to enter the rest of God"

6.Hebrews 6:4-9 – those who became partakers of the holy spirit and fell away

7. Hebrews 10:23-29, 35-39: "if we sin willfully", "if anyone draws back".

8. Matthew 24:13: He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved

9. Hebrews 3:4-6: Holding fast our confidence firm until the end

10. Matthew 24:13: "But the one who endures to the end will be saved"

11. 1 John 2:24-25 – "if what you heard from the beginning abides in you"

12. 2 John 8-9 : to "everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ

13. 2 Peter 1:5-11 : "Make every effort to supplement your faith"

14. Philippians 2:12-16: "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"

15. 1 Timothy 6:10-16: the love of money

16. Galatians 5:2-4 "Severed from Christ"

17. 2 Timothy 2:11-13: "if we deny him, he will also deny us"

18. James 5:19-20: the wandered brother

19. Some will abandon the faith

20. 1 Timothy 5:8: "he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever"

22. The real family of Jesus: "Those who hear the Word of God and do it"

23. 1 Corinthians 5:5: "so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord"

24. Peter 2: "It would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness"

25. Jude: "Turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness" - a much relevant warning

26. 1 Cor. 9:27 ....Lest I myself might become a castaway

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

So salvation by “faith alone” is completely false and impossible!

My friends - it is about getting to know personally the Lord your God, Jesus Christ!! It is not about your religion, which is your understanding of God. It is about your relationship with Him. Is He your Lord? If so, you hear from Him - as in you hearing the sound of the wind - and that you testify to.

Jn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

You indeed, must be born again - and that means you hear Him via His Holy Spirit who speaks His words to your spirit! Everyone who is born of the Spirit hears from Him and those who believe in Him, like Abram, will be saved! That is what we testify to! And saying that is not a Bible study, it is knowing the Lord Jesus Christ personally!

Jn 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

We know Jesus Christ. We hear from Him via His Holy Spirit who speaks to us only what He hears (Jn 16:16)

Jn 3:16 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Hearing from Him does not mean you won't get baptized, or that we shouldn't baptize people in His name. Nor does it not mean that He won't baptize you in the Spirit and fire, but we are saved by faith and faith (a belief that He is the Lord) means that you hear Him like Abram and believe in the Lord. That is counted to you as righteousness. The Lord our God is not going to send a righteous man to hell, not that any of us are righteous, but being counted by Him as righteous because we hear from Him and believe along with His personal sacrifice for our sins means we get eternal life.

Therefore, baptize people so they might be be more dedicated to the Lord. Still the important part is that they get to know the Lord personally by listening to Him and believing! The covenant, baptisms, and all the other things like the teachings, instruction, gifts... follow after the belief in Him. Yet some don't actually listen to Him, even though they consider themselves teachers of the law,

Jn 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?

not by faith alone
1 cor 13:2
1 cor 13:13
Phil 1:29

no relationship without baptism

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

sins washed by baptism
Ez 36:25-27
Acts 22:16

Mitsubishi not a diy bible study but a covenant

 

[theefaith]

It’s not a diy bible study but a covenant
Spell check strikes again

 

[theefaith]

Since it’s Christian we cannot listen to 16th century heresy
Faith alone
Bible alone etc

True Christians cannot listen to the errors of excommunicated heretics like luther, calvin, etc. but we listen faithfully to Christ, in the bosom of holy mother church, the only ark of salvation!
1 pet 3:20-21 matt 18:17 matt 16:18-19 matt 28:19-20 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-23

 

[theefaith]

The new covenant unity:
Union with Christ the mediator and communion with God and the saints is based on “unity of faith”

“Thee faith” of the new covenant that all must believe without any error, false or strange doctrines foreign to “thee faith” of the new covenant!

“Thee faith” is found 31 times in the New Testament!

Obedience of faith: rom 16:26

Ephesians 4
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. ...

Romans 12:16
Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

Romans 15:6
That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Philippians 1:27
Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Philippians 2:2
Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

1 Peter 3:8
Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism

2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)

Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

One church founded by Jesus Christ!

there is only one!
One God!
One Lord!
One savior!
One faith!
One new covenant!
One kingdom!
One household of faith!
One vineyard!
One church! (Not thousands of sects All teaching different doctrines all on the Bible alone, by the tradition of men)
Only Christ has authority to found the new covenant church! Matt 16:18-19
One shepherd one fold Jn 10:16
1 Tim 3:15 pillar and ground of truth
All men must be taught by the church!

Truth is revealed by God, fully by Christ, and must be proposed for our belief by holy mother church! Matt 28:19 Lk 1:4 Acts 8:31 eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 one faith

Unity of faith!

Four Marks of the True Church founded by Jesus Christ on Peter, the apostles, and their successors!

One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church!

The church is One:

Isaiah 9:7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Isa 22:21-22

21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. (Matt 16:18-19)

Dan 2:44
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, (acts 2:17 began at Pentecost) that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Micah 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Lk 1:32-33 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.


Mt 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John 17:17-23
that they may be one as we are one.

Romans 12:5
so we, who are many, are one body in Christ.

Rom 15:6

1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you... that there be no dissensions among you, but that
you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 12:12
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13
by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.

1 Corinthians 12:20
But now are they many members, yet but one body.

Eph 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Colossians 3:15
Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were
called in the one body.

Philippians 1:27
Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Philippians 2:2
be of same the mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of
one mind.


The church is Holy:


The church is Holy because Her founder is God, and Holy is His name.

She is the spotless bride of Christ.

1 Timothy 3:15
know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

Colossians 1:18
And he [Jesus] is the head of the body, the church.

1 Peter 2:9-10
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people
belonging to God... Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God.

Ephesians 2:19-22
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

 

[theefaith]

The church is Catholic: (universal)

Jn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jn 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Jn 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Matt 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Matt 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Matt 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matt 28:18-20
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.

Mark 16:15-16
And he said to them, Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Jn 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Jn 4:42
And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Jn 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Jn 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Jn 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Jn 10:36
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world...

Jn 12:47

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world

Jn 16:12-13
I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them
now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

2 cor 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us (the whole world) to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

World = Universal = Catholic


The church is Apostolic:


Matthew 16:18-10
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Luke 22:28-30
You [the apostles] are those who have continued with me in my trials; and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

John 15:16
You [the apostles] did not choose me, but I [Jesus] chose you and appointed
you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide...

Matthew 28:16,18-20
Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee... And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore
and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.

John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them [the apostles] again, Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.

Ephesians 2:19-20
... but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.

Acts 1:
Matthias replaces Judas who had the ministry of apostle.

Heb 3:11 Acts 1:
Jesus is an apostle, the apostles are already in succession to Him, they in turn would have successors.






Christians must be instructed in “the faith”!

Truth must be revealed by God, and in its fullness in the sacred deposit of faith by Christ to his church! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 and must be taught by the church, or proposed for our belief by the apostles!
Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Jn 20:21 acts 8:31
Rom 1:5 col 2:7 1 Tim 3:15 matt 18:17

Christ and His church are one! acts 9:4
Acts 5:32 Jn 15:1-5

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18
matt 28:19 Jn 20:21-23 Isa 22:21-22
eph 2:20

Ephesians 5:24
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ...

The one true church’s teaching authority from Christ is without error!

A divine institution: founded by Christ on Peter and the holy apostles and their successors unto the end!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!

Christ and His church are one! Jn 15:1-5 Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

Church has authority from Christ!

Church is free from all error!

Mt 16:18 & mt 18:18 Mt 28:19-20

Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16

Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5

Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

The one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles is an extension church of Christ’s ministry of redemption to the whole world and all time!

Christ perpetuates his mission, power, and authority in the holy church!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

The evidence of true faith is humble subjection and obedience to Christ & His holy church!

The rule of faith for Christians is Jesus Christ Jn 14:6 and His church! Matt 18:17 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Truth is revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles) Jude 1:3 then proposed by the church! Matt 28:19

Christ and His church are one!

Rejection of the one true church or its teaching is rejection of Christ and God!

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Jn 8:12 & Matt 5:14

Dan 2:44 Isa 2:2 Micah 4:1 fulfilled in matt 5:14

matt 16:18-19 shall not prevail
Matt 18:17 hear the truth from the church
1 Tim 3:15 the church is the pillar and ground of truth.

Faith ascents & never protests or rebels!
Spiritual Pride protests & is always in rebellion

The nature of spiritual pride is rebellion!
Spiritual pride must protest, and must be right!

Christ and His one true church cannot be right or my self-righteous personal interpretation base on spiritual pride and private judgement must be wrong, and that is unacceptable!

Truth must be revealed by God, and taught by the church, proposed for our belief, we must be instructed!
Matt 28:19 Lk 1:4 Acts 8:31 Lk 10:16 Jn 21:17 Jn 16:13 acts 2:42


Nature of doctrine:

Truth or doctrine MUST be Revealed by God And Proposed by the church for belief, not spiritual pride and self-righteous private judgement!
Claim: “scripture alone”
It’s really just the ugly repugnant pride!
It’s no faith at all only spiritual pride and self-righteous private judgement!
They Hope in creatures not in God!

It is unlawful to refuse to accept a truth revealed by God!

Matt 28:19 eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

Truth matters! It is revealed by God and therefore CANNOT be changed!
The church likewise is founded by Christ and therefore CANNOT be reformed!

 

[Karl Peters]

not by faith alone
1 cor 13:2
1 cor 13:13
Phil 1:29

no relationship without baptism

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

sins washed by baptism
Ez 36:25-27
Acts 22:16

Mitsubishi not a diy bible study but a covenant

"no relationship without baptism" ???

How many relationships do you have???

And how many of those relationships came about because you got baptized in that person's name?

Answer is almost certainly zero!!!

The fact is that we have lots of relationships in our life with people and none come from being baptized in their name!!! So, baptism has nothing to do with relationships!!! Jesus explained that He stands at the door and knocks and if anyone hears His voice and opens the door He will come into them and eat with them and them with Him - that is anyone not just people who get baptized!! So, the important apart is hearing Him and opening up to Him, just like Abraham (who was not baptized) did. That does require some faith, because God is spirit, but it does certainly not require a baptism any more than any relationship requires a 'baptism'.

Now we see tons of verses thrown out as if the listing a verse makes the person correct. I have already gone of several of those verses showing how they simply don't apply and your supposed interpretation (though not mentioned) is wrong. But let's just take a couple more

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

In a relationship you don't put on a person. In fact, nobody actually puts on a person, any person. So, the statement is symbolic, just as baptism is symbolic. In both cases the symbolism has meaning, but the understanding is in what happens. Paul explained that He took all thoughts captive to Jesus Christ. There is a bit of symbolism in that also, but what actually happens is that we get thoughts and we who have an actual relationship with the Lord can talk with Him back and forth. So, if we get a thought we can and would talk to Him about that thought. Now a 'religious person' might get a thought and pronounce out loud, 'I take that thought captive to Jesus Christ and never actually listen to the Lord to get His thoughts on it. They then tell themselves they believe in Him, but don't actually listen to Him. They tell themselves they are saved because they have put Him on, but they don't actually reason with Him and or know Him. With their ears they don't hear, they instead have put they faith in their understanding of God instead of actually getting His understanding by listening to Him. Jesus explained that He spoke to the people in parables because with their ears they did not hear. The parables with symbolism has become a trap for them.

Mat 3:13 “Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

So, a person quotes scripture after scriptures without understanding. This happens because the scriptures do not give us understanding but they are supposed to lead us to hearing the Lord to get understanding. Understanding come from His voice, not His book. The book has the parables and saying, His voice has the understanding and knowledge.

Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

We can read the sayings in the Bible, like the one above and still not come to understanding!! The Lord is understanding! But even that is as a saying. It means that to have understanding you have to know the Lord personally and if you know Him personally you hear from Him.

So let's look at another verse quoted from the post above:

Phil 1:29 For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Apparently, that is supposed to support that we are not save by faith alone. Of course, the verse above has nothing to do with salvation!! Salvation or eternal life is not mention at all, nor referred to in the verse above. Now there are more promises that come with knowing the Lord than just salvation!! We are promised more in this life and in the next and also persecution. The above verse goes over the promise of persecution, not the promise of salvation. How is it a person doesn't understand this? Well, it is easy to fail to understand the promise of persecution if you don't spend time listening to the Lord. I mean what person would count suffering as something we granted, as if suffering is desirable? I don't like suffering, so my thinking is that I don't want that promise!! Yet if the suffering is a direct result of doing what the Lord our God asks you to do then it is proof you did accomplish what He asked you, and you know it clearly.

When He came into my life I was a retail manager with a large company. He asked me to tell people about Him and even did miracles there. I did tell the employees about Him, and did so as nicely as I could. Some didn't like it, because of the spirit influencing them, so they complain that I mentioned Jesus Christ at work, and I got fired. In the USA, you can get fired for that. Not for talking about your favorite sports team, but just talking about Jesus Christ at work is ground for being fired according to even the laws of this "Christian" nation. Still, without going into more detail, He made me so happy and joyful at the moment I was getting fired. Indeed, I had just found out that He had healed someone I prayed for just minutes before they fired me, and that because I prayed for them when I heard Him ask. So Phil 1:29 has nothing to do with the not byt faith alone statement nor even salvation!! It has to do with a real relationship with Him!

 

[theefaith]

"no relationship without baptism" ???

How many relationships do you have???

And how many of those relationships came about because you got baptized in that person's name?

Answer is almost certainly zero!!!

The fact is that we have lots of relationships in our life with people and none come from being baptized in their name!!! So, baptism has nothing to do with relationships!!! Jesus explained that He stands at the door and knocks and if anyone hears His voice and opens the door He will come into them and eat with them and them with Him - that is anyone not just people who get baptized!! So, the important apart is hearing Him and opening up to Him, just like Abraham (who was not baptized) did. That does require some faith, because God is spirit, but it does certainly not require a baptism any more than any relationship requires a 'baptism'.

Now we see tons of verses thrown out as if the listing a verse makes the person correct. I have already gone of several of those verses showing how they simply don't apply and your supposed interpretation (though not mentioned) is wrong. But let's just take a couple more

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

In a relationship you don't put on a person. In fact, nobody actually puts on a person, any person. So, the statement is symbolic, just as baptism is symbolic. In both cases the symbolism has meaning, but the understanding is in what happens. Paul explained that He took all thoughts captive to Jesus Christ. There is a bit of symbolism in that also, but what actually happens is that we get thoughts and we who have an actual relationship with the Lord can talk with Him back and forth. So, if we get a thought we can and would talk to Him about that thought. Now a 'religious person' might get a thought and pronounce out loud, 'I take that thought captive to Jesus Christ and never actually listen to the Lord to get His thoughts on it. They then tell themselves they believe in Him, but don't actually listen to Him. They tell themselves they are saved because they have put Him on, but they don't actually reason with Him and or know Him. With their ears they don't hear, they instead have put they faith in their understanding of God instead of actually getting His understanding by listening to Him. Jesus explained that He spoke to the people in parables because with their ears they did not hear. The parables with symbolism has become a trap for them.

Mat 3:13 “Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

So, a person quotes scripture after scriptures without understanding. This happens because the scriptures do not give us understanding but they are supposed to lead us to hearing the Lord to get understanding. Understanding come from His voice, not His book. The book has the parables and saying, His voice has the understanding and knowledge.

Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

We can read the sayings in the Bible, like the one above and still not come to understanding!! The Lord is understanding! But even that is as a saying. It means that to have understanding you have to know the Lord personally and if you know Him personally you hear from Him.

So let's look at another verse quoted from the post above:

Phil 1:29 For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Apparently, that is supposed to support that we are not save by faith alone. Of course, the verse above has nothing to do with salvation!! Salvation or eternal life is not mention at all, nor referred to in the verse above. Now there are more promises that come with knowing the Lord than just salvation!! We are promised more in this life and in the next and also persecution. The above verse goes over the promise of persecution, not the promise of salvation. How is it a person doesn't understand this? Well, it is easy to fail to understand the promise of persecution if you don't spend time listening to the Lord. I mean what person would count suffering as something we granted, as if suffering is desirable? I don't like suffering, so my thinking is that I don't want that promise!! Yet if the suffering is a direct result of doing what the Lord our God asks you to do then it is proof you did accomplish what He asked you, and you know it clearly.

When He came into my life I was a retail manager with a large company. He asked me to tell people about Him and even did miracles there. I did tell the employees about Him, and did so as nicely as I could. Some didn't like it, because of the spirit influencing them, so they complain that I mentioned Jesus Christ at work, and I got fired. In the USA, you can get fired for that. Not for talking about your favorite sports team, but just talking about Jesus Christ at work is ground for being fired according to even the laws of this "Christian" nation. Still, without going into more detail, He made me so happy and joyful at the moment I was getting fired. Indeed, I had just found out that He had healed someone I prayed for just minutes before they fired me, and that because I prayed for them when I heard Him ask. So Phil 1:29 has nothing to do with the not byt faith alone statement nor even salvation!! It has to do with a real relationship with Him!

Not talking about people
We’re talking new covenant so the relationship must be established with Christ
Union with Christ thru faith and baptism
Then we have communion with God and the saints

 

[Karl Peters]

Not talking about people
We’re talking new covenant so the relationship must be established with Christ
Union with Christ thru faith and baptism
Then we have communion with God and the saints

When we are talking about the Lord Jesus Christ, we are talking about a relationship with Him!!!

Abraham had a relationship with the Lord. The covenant you are so into, comes after the relationship!!

Abram heard from the Lord and followed Him around long before the covenant was made personally with him. Did you not notice this while reading the Bible? And you should have also made special note that the covenant made with Abraham was made personally with Abraham!!

Now the Lord being the same today and always likes to make that covenant with those He knows personally!

Also - going back to the topic of this thread, which happens to be "Born Again", and that you must be "Born Again" - Those "
Born Again" hear the sound of the wind - which is the Holy Spirit who speaks the Lord's words to those you believe in Him! If you are not "Born Again" or born from above as some see it, then you are not hearing the words spoken to you via His Holy Spirit. Therefore, you don't know Him personally! So being "Born Again" which mean hearing from Him comes before the covenant, just like it was with Abram. Being "Born Again" also comes before being baptize - indeed I don't remember reading where Abram was baptized! Someone tried to point out that Baptism was like Noah being in the Ark - yet Noah first built the Ark by hearing the Lord with faith first!! So hearing by faith comes before the baptism anyway you want to look at it. Jesus, though coming down out of heaven and clearly communicating with the Father via the Holy Spirit, because He was in the flesh, still got baptized about the start of what we call His ministry on earth. So again, the baptism comes after being Born/ Born Again, as demonstrated over and over in the Bible.

Is a believer expected to be baptized at some point? Of course. But baptism is not being born! Water baptism does not occur when being born in the flesh, and since God made the heavens and the earth, Spiritual baptism does also not occur when being Born Again! Have we not even asked Him about this - since we call Him both our Lord and Teacher? I did and we talked about it. He pointed out to me how He got baptize before His ministry, and He wondered why people not only failed to talk to Him but also how people say they use Him as an example but fail to look to what He did and when, as recorded in the Bible. Therefore, a union with Him is established by faith - a faith that He is there to talk to and hear from - so that you would be hearing the sound of the wind - which is to say His words coming to your spirit via His Holy Spirit. The baptism is a immersing yourself in God which means a decision is made according to your freewill.

That decision is rarely made by the new believer who has just been "Born Again". It is made after a time when they get to listening to Him more and more. The Lord is the Truth, and so what He tells us matches up with what we see and observe, because that is the Truth. We see people become new Christians, often when they come forward at church, but they most certainly had already started hearing from the Lord so the spiritual being "Born Again" happened and then the coming forward. But even then, rarely do they get baptized then, unless put upon by those claiming to serve the Lord. I put down "claiming" because there have always been those religious leaders more concerned about leading in God's church than actually hearing the Lord and thereby letting Him lead. Nicodemus was such a person, presenting himself as a leader and teacher of God's people, but never having been "Born Again" to understand that means hearing the sound of the wind. Of them it is written that with their ears they don't hear and with their eyes they don't see. Yes, they say they follow God but they reject any testimony from those hearing from God.

Jn 3:8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Jn 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?

Jn 3:11 “Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.

Even the man next to Jesus on the cross, was saved as a new believer - but where was the baptism? And how is it that He knew that Jesus had not done anything wrong to be deserving the cross? Do you not understand that He got that information from hearing the Holy Spirit? When the people had all fallen away from the Christ the Holy Spirit was already bring in new believers. So we are saved by faith - as explain as part of the "Born Again" message!

Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

So, faith alone gets us eternal life and faith comes from hearing, so it comes from being Born again which means hearing the sound of the wind. Then other things follow! Just like Noah heard from the Lord telling Him to build an ark - then there was the building of the ark, then there was the getting into the ark, and then there was the flood - but the faith that saves came from the hearing and because of that faith you have eternal life. The other things, like the following His instructions, the baptism, the covenant with Him, and hopefully the learning from Him (because it is also written that they will all be taught of God, but not all since some don't hear with their spiritual ears)

This is not hard to understand - so why do I have to explain this simple bit of understanding?

Heb 5:11 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

Oh - and BTW - people communicate with many others both people and spirits - yet discernment is important in both cases. A statement like "Then we have communion with God and the saints" dismisses their discernment. Even at the famous upper room communion Judas was there, but only Jesus had discernment. So was it "communion with God and the saints"? Do you consider Judas a saint?

 

[theefaith]

Abraham was in the mosaic covenant not the new covenant

there is no relationship without baptism

Jn 3:22 they did not go to the river and preach a relationship they went to the river to baptize

 

[theefaith]

The Church Always Visible

3. And, since it was necessary that His divine mission should be perpetuated to the end of rime, He took to Himself Disciples, trained by himself, and made them partakers of His own authority. And, when He had invoked upon them from Heaven the Spirit of Truth, He bade them go through the whole world and faithfully preach to all nations, what He had taught and what He had commanded, so that by the profession of His doctrine, and the observance of His laws, the human race might attain to holiness on earth and never-ending happiness in Heaven. In this wise, and on this principle, the Church was begotten. If we consider the chief end of His Church and the proximate efficient causes of salvation, it is undoubtedly spiritual; but in regard to those who constitute it, and to the things which lead to these spiritual gifts, it is external and necessarily visible. The Apostles received a mission to teach by visible and audible signs, and they discharged their mission only by words and acts which certainly appealed to the senses. So that their voices falling upon the ears of those who heard them begot faith in souls-"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the words of Christ" (Rom. x., 17). And faith itself - that is assent given to the first and supreme truth - though residing essentially in the intellect, must be manifested by outward profession-"For with the heart we believe unto justice, but with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Rom. x., 10). In the same way in man, nothing is more internal than heavenly grace which begets sanctity, but the ordinary and chief means of obtaining grace are external: that is to say, the sacraments which are administered by men specially chosen for that purpose, by means of certain ordinances.

Jesus Christ commanded His Apostles and their successors to the end of time to teach and rule the nations. He ordered the nations to accept their teaching and obey their authority. But his correlation of rights and duties in the Christian commonwealth not only could not have been made permanent, but could not even have been initiated except through the senses, which are of all things the messengers and interpreters.

For this reason the Church is so often called in Holy Writ a body, and even the body of Christ - "Now you are the body of Christ" (I Cor. xii., 27)-and precisely because it is a body is the Church visible: and because it is the body of Christ is it living and energizing, because by the infusion of His power Christ guards and sustains it, just as the vine gives nourishment and renders fruitful the branches united to it. And as in animals the vital principle is unseen and invisible, and is evidenced and manifested by the movements and action of the members, so the principle of supernatural life in the Church is clearly shown in that which is done by it.

From this it follows that those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden and invisible Church are in grievous and pernicious error: as also are those who regard the Church as a human institution which claims a certain obedience in discipline and external duties, but which is without the perennial communication of the gifts of divine grace, and without all that which testifies by constant and undoubted signs to the existence of that life which is drawn from God. It is assuredly as impossible that the Church of Jesus Christ can be the one or the other, as that man should be a body alone or a soul alone. The connection and union of both elements is as absolutely necessary to the true Church as the intimate union of the soul and body is to human nature. The Church is not something dead: it is the body of Christ endowed with supernatural life. As Christ, the Head and Exemplar, is not wholly in His visible human nature, which Photinians and Nestorians assert, nor wholly in the invisible divine nature, as the Monophysites hold, but is one, from and in both natures, visible and invisible; so the mystical body of Christ is the true Church, only because its visible parts draw life and power from the supernatural gifts and other things whence spring their very nature and essence. But since the Church is such by divine will and constitution, such it must uniformly remain to the end of time. If it did nor, then it would not have been founded as perpetual, and the end set before it would have been limited to some certain place and to some certain period of time; both of which are contrary to the truth. The union consequently of visible and invisible elements because it harmonizes with the natural order and by God's will belongs to the very essence of the Church, must necessarily remain so long as the Church itself shall endure. Wherefore Chrysostom writes: "Secede not from the Church: for nothing is stronger than the Church. Thy hope is the Church; thy salvation is the Church; thy refuge is the Church. It is higher than the heavens and wider than the earth. It never grows old, but is ever full of vigour. Wherefore Holy Writ pointing to its strength and stability calls it a mountain"

Jn 18:36 My kingdom is not of this world.

What does this mean?

Of divine not human origin!
Not natural but supernatural!
Not temporal but eternal!

Not of this world but in this world!
Both physical and spiritual!
Visible and invisible!

Only a Queen can bear a King!

Christ is King of Glory!

Dan 2: 44 And in the days of these kings (Roman Caesars) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, (acts 2:17 began at Pentecost) that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Micah 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, (Israel) and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The new covenant church) Jn 15:1-5

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Jesus Christ is king!

We must submit and obey the king of kings!

 

[Karl Peters]

Abraham was in the mosaic covenant not the new covenant

there is no relationship without baptism

Jn 3:22 they did not go to the river and preach a relationship they went to the river to baptize

Jesus Christ is king!

We must submit and obey the king of kings!

There are two quotes above and they are inconsistent with each other!!

They also show a lack of relationship with the King of kings.

For example: Abraham clearly had a relationship with the Lord yet the person saying there is no relationship without baptism tries to tells us that the covenant with Abraham (who was not baptized) was different. Indeed, it is explained as a "mosaic" covenant forgetting that Moses came after Abraham. You would have to call it a "abrahamaic covenant", but what it was really was a covenant Abraham made with the Lord through the personal relationship he had with the Lord. That is exactly what we are to have today, which differs from what the Lord set up through Moses, because the people with Moses said, "Let not God speak to us". Since relationship are developed through personal communication, they could not have a personal relationship with God because they would not listen to Him. Therefore, God had to make a covenant with those people through the Law. That was never going to save them, simply because they could never keep the Law, not even with all the sin offerings that were available through the Law. Jesus, the King of kings and Lord or lords thus had to become that sacrifice to fulfill the Law, but that just took us back to the possibility of having a personal relationship with the Lord of lord and King of kings - just like Abrham had. So again, the covenant we make with the Lord is made through our personal relationship with Him.

So the statement made "We must submit and obey the King of kings!" is correct - but if you are thinking that you are going to submit to the King of kings by following a bunch of rules like "Get Baptize so you might be saved" shows that you are going back to the Law (trying to live by rules in writing set forth by God) as opposed to actually listening to Him and doing what He says.

This is why Jesus told the Pharisee Nicodemus that you must be born again, also explaining that means hearing the sound of the wind (His words which come via the Holy Spirit to our spirit), and also then explaining that whoever believes in Him has eternal life. Therefore, belief in Him is the one and only thing needed for salvation, and the connection between hearing and believing, which is also seen in many other places like in Rom 10 where it is clearly explained that faith comes from hearing a word from Him. So again - the faith that saves us come from hearing and hearing happens if you are "Born Again", and baptism has nothing to do with that - except that is will follow at some point!

The Law (those rules God has for us that are based on love) does not go away! The reason for that is simple - God's personality does not change, and He set those rules up by His love for us. It is for our good that He said, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart"! Baptism, an emersion in Him, is the way to get to loving Him with all your heart. But that is not the beginning, but it what you are working at.

Jesus did and said only what the Father told Him. We are not like that. Christian start in faith that comes from a simply small seed (a word from the Lord) and that word grows in them. That is to say the first word we actually hear from the Lord produces a desire to get more words from Him. So it is that Jesus spoke in parables explaining things like the Kingdom of God could be compared to a mustard seed with grows to become the biggest tree in the garden, and the birds of the airs land on it's branches. Of course, the Kingdom of God is not a physical tree but is made of relationships between the King of kings and those kings - even you if you develop a relationship with Him.

So, the covenant we have with the King is simple. We let Him rule over us and He does so - thereby helping us and even putting us in His Kingdom forever. Again, that is all based on hear Him. The baptism is just a deeper commitment we make along the path with Him that brings us closer still. It is not the beginning of the path with Him. Being Born Again is the beginning of the path with Him.

This is obvious to me and should be to anyone who knows Him personally. At some point those who know Him started down a path with Him. At some point many things happened on that path with Him. One of which was probably different baptisms. A water baptism might have come early on, or it might not have. There is also the baptism of the Holy Spirit - which is an immersion in the Holy Spirit. It might have come before the water baptism or it might not have. There is the baptism of fire, which for me personally came about 10 months after hearing those first words I heard from Him "Read Your Bible", and also after finishing reading the Bible like commanded personally to me by Him. It came with the gift of tongues. So there is the beginning with Him - the being "Born Again" and there is a life that follows. That life is an eternal life which all came from believing in Him, and that from hearing a word from Him - just like is all explained in the Bible.

So, there are those people who really know Him and believe in Him. And like before, there are people like Nicodemus, who though presenting themselves as teachers, do not hear the wind because they have not been "Born Again". They might say "Lord, Lord" but they don't really know Him. Because they don't really know Him, so they tend to add religious things (the things of God) to knowing Him. The revert back to the rules (Law) of God not realizing it. So those religious teachers must be "Born Again". That is our message to them just like Jesus told the Pharisee Nicodemus that you must be born again, and that meant hearing the sound of the wind (The words of the Lord which come through the Holy Spirit) and whose "Born Again" and hearing the sound of the wind testify about that - but those like Nicodemus (teachers of the Law) do not accept that testimony!

So, what is going on here and now?

Heb 5:11 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

It really is so simple. You seek our Lord Jesus Christ and listen to Him who speaks to you via His Holy Spirit to your spirit. That results in believing in the Lord, that He is there and is the Lord. So, you seek Him more and more and listen to Him more and more, and the Kingdom of God grows in you and you hear from Him every day. That hearing also leads to so many other things, some of which are the baptisms (Water, Fire, and Spirit). You are naturally going to get more immersed in Him as you go. So, the "elementary principles of God" are being "Born Again" and hearing from Him. The next chapter comes the baptisms and things like that.

If some were not dull of hearing it would not be necessary to cover this, and certainly not in so many words. They would just seek the Lord their God and Teacher, and He would show them the obvious, that hearing from Him came first. It came when they were "Born Again". Of perhaps they need to be "Born Again"?