Were Jesus's brothers born of another woman?

[Matthias]

The Orthodox Jewish Bible (an amplified translation) does a better job than CJB translating Psalm 110:1.

“(Of David. Mimzor). Hashem said unto Adoni [i.e., Moshiach Adoneinu; Malachi 3:1], Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies a footstool for thy feet.”

The Hebrew word / title for the person being addressed by God is correct. (Not Hashem, not Adonai, not adon; adoni. God is addressing someone (the amplification is correct, the Messiah) with the non-deity title. The Malachi 3:1 reference points the reader to the prophesied sending of John the Baptist to prepare the way for the Messiah, not the coming of Hashem himself; the coming of Hashem’s shaliah.

The only question I might have is why the translator capitalized adoni. As someone else mentioned a while back, out of respect for the office is a reasonable explanation. The resurrected Messiah is below Hashem; second only to Hashem himself.

Note also that “thine”and “thy” aren’t capitalized. The Messiah is a human person.

This would be another good choice to use in conversation with a Jew. Again, both parties would recognize and acknowledge that the verse is rendered correctly.

 

[Matthias]

“We are not to suppose that the apostles identified Christ with Jehovah; there were passages which made this impossible, for instance, Ps. 110:1; Mal. 3:1; …”

(Charles Bigg, International Critical Commentary, 1 Peter, p. 99)

Impossible to identify Jesus Christ with Jehovah.

CJB, for example, deliberately altered Psalm 110:1 in order to make the impossible possible.

Try to slip that past people and when they discover what you’ve done you will lose all credibility, and with it, the opportunity to witness for God and his Messiah.

 

[Johann]

Psalm 110:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD (Jehovah) said unto my Lord ('adown), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Hashem said unto Adoni [i.e., Moshiach Adoneinu; Malachi 3:1], Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies a footstool for thy feet.

לְדָוִ֗ד H1732 le·da·Vid, of David מִ֫זְמ֥וֹר H4210 miz·Mor A Psalm נְאֻ֤ם H5002 ne·'Um said יְהוָ֨ה ׀ H3068 Yah·weh The LORD לַֽאדֹנִ֗י H113 la·do·Ni, unto my Lord לַֽאדֹנִ֗י

לַֽאדֹנִ֗י (la·do·Ni)

Translation: "To my Lord" or "Unto my Lord."
The word Adoni (אֲדֹנִי) is a form of Adon (lord/master) with a first-person possessive suffix ("my"). It refers to someone who is in a position of authority or reverence, and in this context, it is distinct from YHWH, signifying another figure.

J.

 

[Matthias]

The Orthodox Jewish Bible (an amplified translation) does a better job than CJB translating Psalm 110:1.

“(Of David. Mimzor). Hashem said unto Adoni [i.e., Moshiach Adoneinu; Malachi 3:1], Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies a footstool for thy feet.”

The Hebrew word / title for the person being addressed by God is correct. (Not Hashem, not Adonai, not adon; adoni. God is addressing someone (the amplification is correct, the Messiah) with the non-deity title. The Malachi 3:1 reference points the reader to the prophesied sending of John the Baptist to prepare the way for the Messiah, not the coming of Hashem himself; the coming of Hashem’s shaliah.

The only question I might have is why the translator capitalized adoni. As someone else mentioned a while back, out of respect for the office is a reasonable explanation. The resurrected Messiah is below Hashem; second only to Hashem himself.

Note also that “thine”and “thy” aren’t capitalized. The Messiah is a human person.

This would be another good choice to use in conversation with a Jew. Again, both parties would recognize and acknowledge that the verse is rendered correctly.

“The Messiah is a human person.” - me

A Catholic response to the assertion made by the Jewish monotheist:

“He is a Divine Person, not a human person …

Mary gave birth to the Divine Person, Jesus. Therefore, since she is the mother of a Divine Person, and not just of His human nature, she is rightly called Mother of God, as defined by the Council of Ephesus in 431.”

ASK FATHER: Is Jesus a human person? Catechism 101 | Fr. Z's Blog

wdtprs.com

I’m a Jewish monotheist but I’m not an Ebionite. Still, what Father Zuhlsdorf goes on to say about them is pertinent to any trinitarian response to Jewish monotheists who are Jewish Christians. (Note that not all Jewish monotheists are Jewish Christians. I am.)

”Ebionites were Jewish Christians who thought Jesus was the Messiah but denied His divinity. These heretics thought that Jesus was a human person.”

He called it plain. Jewish Christians who think Jesus was a human person are heretics.

But is it only Jewish Christians who believe Jesus is a human person? No. Most trinitarians I‘ve met (Catholic and Protestant) who aren’t in the clergy (and even some who were) believe Jesus is a human person.

We’ve come this far. Let’s let the Father conclude what he has to say to me.

”Don’t be an Ebionite!

Jesus is a Divine Person, who still has two natures, Divine and human. Jesus is a Divine Person, not a human person. He is a Divine Person who shares our humanity.

As the Catechism of the Catholic Church states, ‘Jesus Christ is true God and true man, in the unity of his divine person; for this reason he is the one and only mediator between God and men.’”

If you want to be a trinitarian, be a trinitarian. But if you’re a trinitarian, remember this: You cannot be a trinitarian and believe that Jesus of Nazareth is a human person.

 

[Matthias]

Hashem said unto Adoni [i.e., Moshiach Adoneinu; Malachi 3:1], Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies a footstool for thy feet.

לְדָוִ֗ד H1732 le·da·Vid, of David מִ֫זְמ֥וֹר H4210 miz·Mor A Psalm נְאֻ֤ם H5002 ne·'Um said יְהוָ֨ה ׀ H3068 Yah·weh The LORD לַֽאדֹנִ֗י H113 la·do·Ni, unto my Lord לַֽאדֹנִ֗י

לַֽאדֹנִ֗י (la·do·Ni)

Translation: "To my Lord" or "Unto my Lord."
The word Adoni (אֲדֹנִי) is a form of Adon (lord/master) with a first-person possessive suffix ("my"). It refers to someone who is in a position of authority or reverence, and in this context, it is distinct from YHWH, signifying another figure.

J.

“It refers to someone who is in a position of authority or reverence, and in this context, it is distinct from YHWH, signifying another figure.”

Someone who is distinct from YHWH, someone who is another figure, is someone who isn’t YHWH; someone who isn’t the God of Israel.

That person who is distinct from YHWH in Psalm 110:1 isn’t identified by name there, or anywhere else in the Hebrew Bible. He is explicitly identified by name in the New Testament.

Jesus of Nazareth -> Someone who is distinct from YHWH, someone who is another figure, someone who isn‘t YHWH, someone who isn’t the God of Israel.

Jesus of Nazareth -> the lord Messiah, Son of the God of Israel.

 

[Matthias]

From my X / Twitter “For you” feed this morning:

“Tonight the Church will pray the first part of a 1500-year-old poem

And as you read it, you will find a hidden message

They’re known as the O Antiphons …”

x.com

x.com

Let’s look at the hidden message. Come on, he doesn’t mind. The message is posted for public consumption. He’ll be pleased that we did.

”The O Antiphons are prayed during Vespers from December 17-23 each focusing on a title for Christ.

If you take the first letter of each title in reverse order - Emmanuel, Rex, Oriens, Clavis, Radix, Adonai, Sapientia, - they spell ‘Ero Cras.’

This Latin phrase means ‘Tomorrow I will come.’”

The hidden message: “Tomorrow I will come.”

The hidden message might be the thing of greatest interest for some, but not for me. The greatest thing of interest for me is the titles; and one title in particular stands out to me above the others: Adonai.

When I read Adonai my mind instantly went to Psalm 110:1. Adonai is the deity title reserved for Yahweh, the God of Israel.

Note that the title in the hidden message isn’t adoni, the non-deity title.

The title in the message is not the title that Psalm 110:1 assigns to the Messiah.

When I read it my thought was that it’s something important that people should know about. Let the reader do with it as he or she will.

 

[Verily]

Hashem said unto Adoni [i.e., Moshiach Adoneinu; Malachi 3:1], Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies a footstool for thy feet.

לְדָוִ֗ד H1732 le·da·Vid, of David מִ֫זְמ֥וֹר H4210 miz·Mor A Psalm נְאֻ֤ם H5002 ne·'Um said יְהוָ֨ה ׀ H3068 Yah·weh The LORD לַֽאדֹנִ֗י H113 la·do·Ni, unto my Lord לַֽאדֹנִ֗י

לַֽאדֹנִ֗י (la·do·Ni)

Translation: "To my Lord" or "Unto my Lord."
The word Adoni (אֲדֹנִי) is a form of Adon (lord/master) with a first-person possessive suffix ("my"). It refers to someone who is in a position of authority or reverence, and in this context, it is distinct from YHWH, signifying another figure.

J.

Johann, both Matthias and now you are speaking to me as I quote the scripture as if I understand what you are talking about when you respond like this.

What someone can do is write the verse and in parenthese beside it post the original word which is supposedly correct so I can follow words I dont understand and understand where you are placing them. I have no idea where the problem is though he going to great lengths to show me something he has failed to show me using his aproach, and changing verses into errors.

Its like reading chinese. I think people do not believe Jesus was made flesh and did not have a God and so is somehow some sort of inside joke that I am not getting.

If I were teaching someone something (which I refrain from being a woman) I would write the comparable verses as they appear in English (the persons native tongue) and show by them what on earth is incorrect about them that way. But when shooting out all sorts of Hebrew words and you cannot find them in the verses you are quoting leaves a person scratching their heads as to what on earth is this person going on about.

 

[Verily]

“It refers to someone who is in a position of authority or reverence, and in this context, it is distinct from YHWH, signifying another figure.”

Someone who is distinct from YHWH, someone who is another figure, is someone who isn’t YHWH; someone who isn’t the God of Israel.

That person who is distinct from YHWH in Psalm 110:1 isn’t identified by name there, or anywhere else in the Hebrew Bible. He is explicitly identified by name in the New Testament.

Jesus of Nazareth -> Someone who is distinct from YHWH, someone who is another figure, someone who isn‘t YHWH, someone who isn’t the God of Israel.

Jesus of Nazareth -> the lord Messiah, Son of the God of Israel.

Is this a new revelation to you?

 

[Johann]

Johann, both Matthias and now you are speaking to me as I quote the scripture as if I understand what you are talking about when you respond like this.

What someone can do is write the verse and in parenthese beside it post the original word which is supposedly correct so I can follow words I dont understand and understand where you are placing them. I have no idea where the problem is though he going to great lengths to show me something he has failed to show me using his aproach, and changing verses into errors.

Its like reading chinese. I think people do not believe Jesus was made flesh and did not have a God and so is somehow some sort of inside joke that I am not getting.

If I were teaching someone something (which I refrain from being a woman) I would write the comparable verses as they appear in English (the persons native tongue) and show by them what on earth is incorrect about them that way. But when shooting out all sorts of Hebrew words and you cannot find them in the verses you are quoting leaves a person scratching their heads as to what on earth is this person going on about.

My sincere apologies, @Verily.

J.

 

[Verily]

My sincere apologies, @Verily.

J.

No need to be sorry, I was hoping you could better explain where you might be coming from. I cannot figure out whether you are poking fun at where I might be coming from, where Matthias might be coming from, playing with words (I am not sure of) let alone where those words belong to even catch the joke.

So I am definately an outsider on these things.

 

[Matthias]

“Yahweh’s oracle to you, my Lord, ‘Sit at my right hand and I will make your enemies a footstool for you.”

(Psalm 110:1, Jerusalem Bible)

The Jerusalem Bible is a Catholic Bible.

A couple of things to point out here: 1. Yahweh (the God of Israel; David’s God and the Messiah’s God) is clearly the speaker. 2. Yahweh is speaking to the unnamed Messiah in an oracle. This is a prophetic oracle, not a recollection of a one-way conversation which occurred sometime before the Messiah was begotten in the womb of the virgin. It’s a prophetic utterance of something that would happen in the future. The prophecy that Messiah would one day sit at Yahweh’s right hand was fulfilled when the bodily resurrected Jesus ascended into heaven. 4. Contra the NABRE, JB capitalizes the “l”. That’s misleading, however, in the footnotes we read (about another verse in the Psalm, v.5) “here the subject seems to be not Yahweh but the Messiah.”

In verse 5 the positions of Yahweh and the Messiah are reversed from what they were in v. 1. Yahweh is at the Messiah’s right hand in v. 5. I discussed this earlier in the thread. The thing I want to point out to readers about this note is that the translators clearly understand that there is a difference, a distinction made in the prophecy, between Yahweh (which JB correctly states in the footnotes is the Father) and the Messiah (which JB correctly states is Jesus, the Son of God). Yahweh and Jesus. Two persons; the first person being the God and Father of the second person.

Back quickly back to the issue of “my Lord” vs. “my lord”. By capitalizing the “l” the reader with the standard English translation practice in mind would think - or be tempted to - that the Hebrew word is Adonai (the deity title) but we know for a fact that it isn’t. We also should note that JB doesn’t follow the standard English practice - the tetragrammaton isn’t translated “the LORD” but rather with a transliteration, “Yahweh”. Also, the distinction between God and the Messiah is recognized acknowledged in the footnotes. So what do we have then? Is it translator bias? Given all that is said in the footnotes, I don’t think so. Is it respect for the Messianic office? I think that it is.

***

It’s Yahweh and Jesus; not Yahweh and Yahweh.

It’s the Lord God and the lord Messiah; not the Lord God and the Lord God.

“Blessed be Yahweh, the God and Father of our lord Jesus Messiah.”

 

[Johann]

No need to be sorry, I was hoping you could better explain where you might be coming from. I cannot figure out whether you are poking fun at where I might be coming from, where Matthias might be coming from, playing with words (I am not sure of) let alone where those words belong to even catch the joke.

So I am definately an outsider on these things.

That’s the last thing I’d do-poke fun at you. Let’s just say I share your belief in the Triune Godhead.

Do you have a LXX?

Amazingly, Jesus and Paul used the LXX as their primary Bible. It was just like the Bible each of us holds in our hands, not the original Hebrew Old Testament, but a translation of the Hebrew into Greek. But it was based on precisely the same original and inspired words and reads like the Bible we hold today.

J.

 

[Verily]

That’s the last thing I’d do-poke fun at you. Let’s just say I share your belief in the Triune Godhead.

Do you have a LXX?

Amazingly, Jesus and Paul used the LXX as their primary Bible. It was just like the Bible each of us holds in our hands, not the original Hebrew Old Testament, but a translation of the Hebrew into Greek. But it was based on precisely the same original and inspired words and reads like the Bible we hold today.

J.

No Johann I never cracked one, I am out of the loop. As I was thinking of this in bed last night, I thought, maybe its because of all the things said to Christ was the issue? For the LORD said unto My Lord (which I see is Jesus Christ) as is spoken in the Psalm 110:1 as the man who died and was raised in the one place, is pitted against what God said to Him in another which was calling Jesus God in Psalm 45:6-7 (as Hebrews 1:8 points out) " Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever" and elsewhere refers to Jesus a High priest forever in Psalm 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek as Hebrews 5:5 shows and so if one is true the others are not true? And in every place the Father is speaking to the Son and granting him things. I see 'Adonay in Psalm 2:4 but not in Psalm 110:1 just Jehovah and 'adown which is the same as Sarah called Abraham. But I am always okay with these sorts of things others do not seem to be.

Can I get one of those LXX's?

 

[Johann]

No Johann I never cracked one, I am out of the loop. As I was thinking of this in bed last night, I thought, maybe its because of all the things said to Christ was the issue? For the LORD said unto My Lord (which I see is Jesus Christ) as is spoken in the Psalm 110:1 as the man who died and was raised in the one place, is pitted against what God said to Him in another which was calling Jesus God in Psalm 45:6-7 (as Hebrews 1:8 points out) " Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever" and elsewhere refers to Jesus a High priest forever in Psalm 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek as Hebrews 5:5 shows and so if one is true the others are not true? And in every place the Father is speaking to the Son and granting him things. I see 'Adonay in Psalm 2:4 but not in Psalm 110:1 just Jehovah and 'adown which is the same as Sarah called Abraham. But I am always okay with these sorts of things others do not seem to be.

Can I get one of those LXX's?

Do you have e-Sword Bible software or Word? I’ll gladly go out of my way to help you, @Verily.

Johann.

 

[Verily]

Do you have e-Sword Bible software or Word? I’ll gladly go out of my way to help you, @Verily.

Johann.

You know I used to have e-sword Johann, but I do not anymore. But I was supposed to go offline completely last year (until Microsoft extended updates for Windows 10 until next year) and on my way out the door I was looking for something that would just work offline (and I could hold in my hand) and someone on another forum reccomended "Swordsearcher", so I do have that, not sure how it compares to what the other has. It has lots of tags I am afraid to touch anything in case I cannot get back to where I started.

I am not smart at tech either. But I love the offer because maybe I could tag you and ask for your help on a thing I could use a brother in Jesus Christ for something like that. You do a wonderful job working what is chinese to me still LOL. Thank you!

 

[Johann]

You know I used to have e-sword Johann, but I do not anymore. But I was supposed to go offline completely last year (until Microsoft extended updates for Windows 10 until next year) and on my way out the door I was looking for something that would just work offline (and I could hold in my hand) and someone on another forum reccomended "Swordsearcher", so I do have that, not sure how it compares to what the other has. It has lots of tags I am afraid to touch anything in case I cannot get back to where I started.

I am not smart at tech either. But I love the offer because maybe I could tag you and ask for your help on a thing I could use a brother in Jesus Christ for something like that. You do a wonderful job working what is chinese to me still LOL. Thank you!

It’s 12:22 AM here in South Africa, but I’ll make it a point to help and assist you-just give me a shout!

Johann.

 

[Matthias]

“The R.V. has rightly dropped the capital letter, as being of the nature of an interpretation. ‘My lord’ (adoni) is the title of respect and reverence used in the O.T. in addressing or speaking of a person of rank and dignity, especially a king (Genesis Genesis 23:6; 1 Samuel 22:11; 1 Kings 1. passim, Psalm 18:7; and frequently).

(Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges, Commentary on Psalm 110:1)

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/cambridge/psalms/1101.htm

“Rightly dropped the capital letter… my lord (adoni)…”

Perfect. The Messiah is given the non-deity title, not the deity title. If it had been the deity title then it wouldn’t have been right to drop the capital letter.

One final point: David isn’t the source of the prophecy; he’s the prophet who makes the prophecy known.

The point? It is Yahweh himself who uses the non-deity title when he speaks to the Messiah.

God himself is the guarantor that the correct title for the Messiah / Jesus is lord, not Lord.

 

[Verily]

God himself speaking to His Son Jesus here too.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith,

Psalm 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

Psalm 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

 

[Matthias]

From my X / Twitter “For you” feed today:

”Serious question for men:

If an angel told you that your virgin wife was going to give birth to God, you then witnessed the birth of God and had the awesome responsibility to helping to raise God.

Would you even think about having sex with the woman who carried God inside her?”

x.com

x.com

The premise of the question is what trinitarians are supposed / required to believe.

The question is typically answered negatively by Catholics, positively by Protestants.

***

I’m a Jewish Monotheist, not a trinitarian. My God is Adonai / Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus. Mary did not give birth to my God. Mary did not carry my God inside of her body. My God was never born and no one ever had the responsibility of helping to raise my God.

The premise of the question is absurd to a Jewish monotheist. The premise of the question is, or should be, in the belief / comfort zone of the trinitarian.

 

[Verily]

So you are shadow boxing at the Mary deal as if everyone takes up that stance.

Do that many people actually have twitter memberships to read over there?