Were the Church Fathers Sent by God?

[Robert Gwin]

Well, actually Ephesians 2 (particularly vs 14 & 15) is clear that God made a new creation composed of both Jews and Gentiles. They are called the Body of Christ. That body is the dwelling place of God. Just read Ephesians 2. You'll see it.

Then there's this:

Gal 3:28,

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
​

Personally, I think Ephesians is the acme of God's wonderful plan of redemption for all, whether Jew or Gentile.

Exactly Rich, Christians are from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues including those who make up the Israel of God Rev 5:9,10; Gal 6:16

 

[theefaith]

Were the Church Fathers Sent by God?
talking donkey's.....hmmmm, I wondered about that!

was Timothy a disciple of Paul?

So was polycarp of John!

acts 1:15-26 apostolic succession

 

[theefaith]

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Successors of Jesus Christ!

Matt 28:19-20

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

So there must be successors to the apostles, the USA was not a nation for 1800 years after the apostles, yet He says teach all nations!

And behold I am with you (the apostles) to the end of the world!


Jesus already prepares His apostles to continue His mission with His power (binding and loosing) and with His authority (keys) matt 16:18 matt 18:18

Same mission, power, and authority Jn 20:21-23

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

John 4:1 when therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John...
Jn 4:2 Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples

Here we see Jesus delegating to His successors, Peter and the apostles!

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing

There can be no unity of the spirit without obedience to the faith! Rom 1:5 eph 4:3

Matt 28 I am with you (the apostles)

The papacy based on Matt 16:18 and Isa 22:21-22

Matt 16:18-19
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Isa 22:21-22
21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Behold I am with you (the apostles) until the end of the world,so the successors of the apostles must remain until the end of the world) matt 28:19

(None of the so called reformers were apostles) (no man has authority to start a church)


Successors of Moses!

Matt 23 why does Jesus say to obey the successors of Moses?

The successors of Moses sit in the chair of Moses having the authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Matt 23 and Jesus commanded them to be obeyed! Then the kingdom was taken from them matt 21:43 and given to Peter, Matt 16:18 the apostles, Matt 18:18 and their successors with the authority of the keys and the power to bind and lose!

Jesus said to obey the authority of the successors of Moses mt 23 authority of the keys and power to bind and loose and this power and authority was taken from them matt and given by Christ to Peter, the apostles and their successors, mt 16:18 18:18 this same authority and power must be obeyed!

mt 28:18-20 all authority is given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors requiring obedience, rom 1:5 obedience to the faith!
And Jesus say to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: behold I am with you even until the end of the world!!!
So the apostles have to remain until the end! Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and Priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Reign with kingdom authority (keys) power (bind loose) matt 16:18
The successors of Peter and the apostles have a valid jurisdictional authority (keys) and power (bind and loose) by Jesus Christ!

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

apostolic succession!

explicit and implicit in scripture

Judas was an apostle
Acts 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Matthias succeeded him as apostle

acts 1: 26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

now if it applies to judas how much more to Peter and the other apostles

Matt 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus is with His church and His apostles until the end! So the apostles must remain until the end governing the church administering the kingdom

Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom: (jurisdictional authority of the universal church) and the power to bind and loose:

Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter:

Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:

Isa 22 21-22 prime minister called father!
Holding the keys of the kingdom under the king Lk 1:32-33 in the line of david!
Matt 16:18

 

[amigo de christo]

FEED MY SHEEP INDEED . NOT FEED MY SHEEP TO THE CC . No keep those sheep from the CC .
Simple teach the lambs to learn those bibles well and be loving every Word JESUS ever taught
and the apostels taught . Loving all sound doctrine . True elders would FEED the CHURCH
Not to the wolves and that doctrine , but rather keeping them built up in and with biblical doctrine .

 

[Rich R]

There is One Gospel, One Christ/Messiah/Savior, One Body = His Body, One Bride = His Brid

This is like a son not able to be his own father. In this case it is that Christ's body can't also be his bride. Do you know of any other husband that is his own bride? I don't. Seems like they are two different people, just like a father and son. We need to dig a little deeper to get to the truth. Jesus has a body and he has a bride, but he can't be both at the same time. They are two different things that ought not be confused with each other. At least, that's what I think.

But if they are the same person, then besides God changing the meaning of "father" and "son," we now have Him changing the meaning of, "husband" and "wife!" Oh my! where does it end? What other simple words has God redefined?

 

[David in NJ]

was Timothy a disciple of Paul?

So was polycarp of John!

acts 1:15-26 apostolic succession

This is like a son not able to be his own father. In this case it is that Christ's body can't also be his bride. Do you know of any other husband that is his own bride? I don't. Seems like they are two different people, just like a father and son. We need to dig a little deeper to get to the truth. Jesus has a body and he has a bride, but he can't be both at the same time. They are two different things that ought not be confused with each other. At least, that's what I think.

But if they are the same person, then besides God changing the meaning of "father" and "son," we now have Him changing the meaning of, "husband" and "wife!" Oh my! where does it end? What other simple words has God redefined?

Learn from Christ - start with this - Mark 10:1-9

Then He arose from there and came to the region of Judea by the other side of the Jordan. And multitudes gathered to Him again, and as He was accustomed, He taught them again.

The Pharisees came and asked Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?” testing Him.

And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?”

They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her.”

And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’ ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,
and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.
Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

 

[amigo de christo]

Learn from Christ - start with this - Mark 10:1-9

Then He arose from there and came to the region of Judea by the other side of the Jordan. And multitudes gathered to Him again, and as He was accustomed, He taught them again.

The Pharisees came and asked Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?” testing Him.

And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?”

They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her.”

And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’ ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,
and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.
Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

Paul also writes and speaks about this mystery concerning Christ and the Church and they are ONE . yes indeed .
We are His body , now let the glorious Lord be praised .

 

[Rich R]

Learn from Christ - start with this - Mark 10:1-9

Then He arose from there and came to the region of Judea by the other side of the Jordan. And multitudes gathered to Him again, and as He was accustomed, He taught them again.

The Pharisees came and asked Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?” testing Him.

And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?”

They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her.”

And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’ ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,
and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.
Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

Well, maybe that's a figure of speech and not meant to be taken literally. I think it is, because every morning when my wife and I get out of bed and there are two distinct lumps in the mattress. :)

 

[theefaith]

FEED MY SHEEP INDEED . NOT FEED MY SHEEP TO THE CC . No keep those sheep from the CC .
Simple teach the lambs to learn those bibles well and be loving every Word JESUS ever taught
and the apostels taught . Loving all sound doctrine . True elders would FEED the CHURCH
Not to the wolves and that doctrine , but rather keeping them built up in and with biblical doctrine .

There CANNOT be both!

Either Apostolic tradition in hierarchical authority which establishes truth, peace and order!

Or

Spiritual anarchy producing chaos and disorder!

 

[David in NJ]

Paul also writes and speaks about this mystery concerning Christ and the Church and they are ONE . yes indeed .
We are His body , now let the glorious Lord be praised .

EXACTLY my point, which is why Christ spoke of Marriage and the Two are made ONE.

 

[Johann]

EXACTLY my point, which is why Christ spoke of Marriage and the Two are made ONE.

How many mysteries were given to Paul and what are they?

 

[theefaith]

Learn from Christ - start with this - Mark 10:1-9

Then He arose from there and came to the region of Judea by the other side of the Jordan. And multitudes gathered to Him again, and as He was accustomed, He taught them again.

The Pharisees came and asked Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?” testing Him.

And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?”

They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her.”

And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’ ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,
and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.
Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

and Jesus ascended to heaven and founded the church on Peter and His successors to teach Matt 28:19
Matt 16:18
Without error Jn 16:13
Same mission ministry power and authority as Christ!
Jn 20:21

 

[David in NJ]

How many mysteries were given to Paul and what are they?

Hello Johann,
The Mysteries are in Genesis thru the Prophets leading up to Christ.

These Mysteries are locked out of the carnal/religious/acedemic minds of man - he cannot discern them.

I assume that you are saved by the Blood of Christ? Have you read the Gospel of John and Acts?

 

[theefaith]

Tradition!

1) Tradition!

Divine tradition:

Apostolic tradition:

Inspired human tradition:

Mere human tradition:

Demonic tradition:


2) Explanation:

Tradition means teaching!

Divine tradition: the personal teaching of Jesus Christ to His church of the apostles!

Apostolic tradition: extension of the divine tradition to all time and places
Universal, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to safeguard the truth and teach all nations!

Teaching authority of the apostles!

Inspired human tradition: the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to a man who is not an apostle, but is verified by the apostolic tradition!

Mere human tradition: unaided by God!

Demonic tradition: inspiration of satan!


3) Examples:

Divine tradition: only the personal teaching of Christ to the church of the apostles.

Apostolic tradition: an extension of the divine tradition with the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit to safeguard, defend, and teach the faith revealed by Christ in the unity of the church founded by Christ on Peter, & the apostles!

1 cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you…

Inspired human tradition: the gospel of Luke who was not an apostle.

Mere human tradition: 1st Sunday communion, Sunday school, wed night prayer meeting. Etc.

Demonic tradition: the theory of evolution or the communist manifesto.


4) Scripture:

Tradition in general:

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Divine tradition:

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints!

Apostolic tradition:

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost!

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness!
(all scripture not 66 books alone)

Matt 16:18-19
Matt 28:17
Jn 20:21-23
Lk 10:16
Jn 13:20
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
1 Tim 3:15


Inspired human tradition:

Luke’s gospel and acts of the apostles.

Mere human tradition:

Not scriptural! No authority from God!

Demonic tradition:

Not scriptural! No authority from God!


5) The nature of the church!

The church does not require scripture to know the truths revealed by God! Jude 1:3, 1 Tim 3:15

Church is eternal! Lk 1:32-33

Christ and His apostolic church are one! Matt 5:14 Jn 15:1 Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 1 Tim 3:15

The holy church is a Perfect society founded by Christ for the salvation of all men!

And to Faithfully transmit and saintly safeguard the deposit of faith!

No one has authority from Christ except His church of the apostles to define and declare truth!

Scripture is the possession of the church!

All of divine revelation is the word of God and thee faith given to the church of the apostles by Christ
to safeguard against all error, and
to faithfully teach all nations!

The doctrine of the “Bible alone” is heresy and is opposed by the scriptures. Matt 16:28-19 Matt 18:18 Jn 29:21-23 Acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

The church is an extension of Christ who taught the truth, and the church is commanded to teach all nations these same truths called the deposit of faith! Matt 28:19 Jude 1:3

All scripture came by tradition!

By divine, apostolic, and inspired human tradition that is verified by the apostolic tradition!

The church of the apostles founded by Christ on Peter & the apostles received all of the faith, all truths revealed by God personally taught by Christ to his church!

The rule of faith is the doctrine of the apostles! Or the apostolic tradition! Acts 2:42

All men Must be taught, or instructed, Lk 1:4 acts 8:31 and hear the church Matt 18:17 and the church is the pillar of truth 1 Tim 3:15 cos Christ and his apostolic church are one!
Matt 5:14 , Jn 15:5, Acts 9:4, Eph 5:32

Truth must be revealed by Christ Jude 1:3 and taught by his apostolic church. Matt 28:19

The holy church does not require scripture to know the truth cos the church received the “deposit of faith” Jude 1:3 from Christ in person and the church of the apostles by apostolic authority and inspired human authority wrote the scriptures, and the apostolic authority verified them, declared what is inspired scripture, and what is not the inspired scripture, as an example the gospel of Thomas is not inspired scripture but the gospel of Matthew is inspired scripture.

The deposit of faith, the entire divine revelation and word of God is given to the church of the apostles by Christ to safeguard against all error!
And to faithfully teach all nations!
Jude 1:3, Matt 28:19

The church of the apostles founded by Christ on Peter received all of the faith, all truths revealed by God personally taught by Christ to his apostles!

The rule of faith is the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

Must hear the church Matt 18:17 the church is the pillar of truth 1 Tim 3:15 cos Christ and his apostolic church are one!
Matt 5:14
Jn 15:5
Acts 9:4
eph 5:32

Truth must be revealed by Christ Jude 1:3 and taught by his apostolic church Matt 28:19

The church does not require scripture to know truth cos the church received the “deposit of faith” Jude 1:3 from Christ in person and the church of the apostles by apostolic authority and inspired human authority wrote the scriptures.

Scripture is the possession of the church! Used for the needs and purposes in the church!

All new testament Scripture was written by the church!


Divine revelation or the word of God! Handed to His church of the apostles by Christ! Jude 1:3
To safeguard against all error!
To faithfully teach all nations!
Matt 28:19

 

[David in NJ]

and Jesus ascended to heaven and founded the church on Peter and His successors to teach Matt 28:19
Matt 16:18
Without error Jn 16:13
Same mission ministry power and authority as Christ!
Jn 20:21

You know - these jokes gotta stop - i keep spilling my coffee.

 

[theefaith]

Fundamentalism is darkness!

Christ is the light of the world!

Fundamentalism is extremist and a violation of the Christian virtue of moderation! Phil 4:5

Jesus did not say learn of me cos I’m full of pride, presumption, & arrogance but Learn of me meek for I am meek and humble of heart!

It is impossible to reason with a fundamentalist or have logical conclusions cos they have no logic and no reason!

Fundamentalism: faith without reason!

Fundamentalism is unbiblical: Phil 4:5 Matt 11:29

Fundamentalists claim to believe the doctrine of the “Bible alone” but don’t believe what the Bible actually says!

James 3:14
But if you have bitter zeal, and there be contentions in your hearts; glory not, and be not liars against the truth.

A Christian must moderate zeal and all extremes to be virtuous!






Interpretation provides meaning!

Meaning provides understanding!

Understanding produces unity!

Examples:

Text: a Fat sandwich man.

What does it mean: a fat man making sandwiches?

Or does it mean: a man making fat sandwiches?

No Hurry:

Does it mean we don’t have time so hurry up?

Or does it mean we got lots of time?

Seven spirits of God:

Does it mean there are seven holy spirits?
Or the seven gifts of the spirit?

Seven churches:

Does it mean there are seven churches?

Or the one church at seven different locations?

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Does it mean “faith alone”? “Accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior”?

Or does it mean the Christian sacrament of baptism?

Only the church who wrote the scripture in the first place has authority from Christ to interpret scripture! And teach all nations!
Matt 28:19

 

[Johann]

Hello Johann,
The Mysteries are in Genesis thru the Prophets leading up to Christ.

These Mysteries are locked out of the carnal/religious/acedemic minds of man - he cannot discern them.

I assume that you are saved by the Blood of Christ? Have you read the Gospel of John and Acts?

Yes, I am saved by the shed blood of Christ since I was a young man, and no, there are 7 mysteries given to Paul of which the Old Covenant saints knew nothing about, that is why it is called a mystery, you know them?

 

[Philip James]

there are 7 mysteries given to Paul of which the Old Covenant saints knew nothing about, that is why it is called a mystery, you know them?

Not given to Paul only,

Baptism
Christmation
Eucharist (often referred to as the Divine Mysteries)
Reconcilliation
Extreme Unction
Ordination

The 7 great mysteries or Sacraments of the Church.

Peace be with you!

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, I am saved by the shed blood of Christ since I was a young man, and no, there are 7 mysteries given to Paul of which the Old Covenant saints knew nothing about, that is why it is called a mystery, you know them?

The Mysteries are contained in Genesis thru the Prophets and including the Gospel.

They can only be seen by the revelation of the Holy Spirit, in which Christ gave to the Apostles and now to us, who have His Holy Spirit.

 

[Johann]

Not given to Paul only,

Baptism
Christmation
Eucharist (often referred to as the Divine Mysteries)
Reconcilliation
Extreme Unction
Ordination

The 7 great mysteries or Sacraments of the Church.

Peace be with you!

This is quite incorrect Phillip, not interested in looking this up?