Were the Church Fathers Sent by God?

[David in NJ]

Strong's Concordance definition of Apostle:

G652 ἀπόστολος apostolos (a-po'-sto-los) n.
1. a delegate.
2. (specially) an ambassador of the Gospel.
3. (officially) a commissioner of Christ, “apostle” (with miraculous powers).​

Paul said many times that he was an apostle sent by God.

1 Cor 1:1,

Paul, [a] called apostle of Jesus Christ, by God's will, and Sosthenes the brother,
​

2 Cor 1:1,

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy [our] brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
​

Gal 1:1,

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
​

There's more places where he unambiguously claims to be sent by God.

Do any of the Church Fathers make the same claim? References would be most helpful.

Thanks! :)

There is no such thing as 'church fathers'.

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

 

[BarneyFife]

Hi Barn, you said,



What is the SDA denomination teaching on this subject? I know I didn't know that Jesus was God until about 20 years after I left SDA. What do you believe about whether Jesus is God or not? Or do you just believe He is the Son of God and leave it at that?

As I recall, they were not opposed to the Trinity. What do you know now?

Your pal, Linda

Pal Linda,
I'm sorry, I just realized I completely skipped one of your questions. I'll have to wait until tomorrow to get to it, though.

Ol' Barn

:)

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Pal Linda,

They are definitely not opposed to the Trinity.

It is only implied in the baptismal vows, but there is an alternative, ironically shorter set of vows that pastors preparing candidates may use at their discretion which obligates the candidate to affirm the "28 Fundamental Beliefs" which specify Trinitarianism in some detail.

Anyhow, this is the most up-to-date info I can find at the moment. I'm open to correction.

In this spot, I've been trying for several hours to express what I believe about the Godhead. I can't think of anything that seems intelligent.

It doesn't seem so unorthodox to me to admit:

Job 11:7 KJV: Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?

Sorry, I guess this isn't much of an answer(?)

(I go by "Alan" but it'll probably be easier for you to remember "Barn." Either way's fine with me. )

:)

Barn/Alan,

If I remember right, they do baptize in the three names, but I think how they explained the divinity of Jesus and why I didn't know He was still God, was my church taught that Jesus gave up His divinity to become a human man in order to die for us, and even after He rose from the dead, He remained only a human.

This is the verse I mentioned in Titus.

Titus 2:13
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

 

[Robert Gwin]

Well, I don't claim to be an Apostle, if that's what you're thinking. But I have a mouth and I know a little bit about the scriptures, enough to help someone who's suffering or in pain in this world anyway.

Eph 4:11-12,

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
​

These are the gifts God gives to the Church of Christ's body, of whom he is the head. Jesus is the head, nobody else, not me, not your Priest or Pastor, not even the Pope. At least if Colossians is right, and I think it is. :)

Col 1:18,

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
​

As I side note, the church, composed of both Jews and Gentiles (Eph 2:15), is called the Body. We are not the Bride. That would be the Jews, who will be gathered together from the four corners of the earth and marry Jesus when he returns. See Isaiah, Jeremiah, Revelation, and a few other places.

Apostles haven't been around since the first century Rich, but there are millions of disciples today. The Jews of the covenant are the bride of Christ sir. The rest of us, what you call Gentiles are the citizens of the Kingdom under their rulership.

 

[Rich R]

There is no such thing as 'church fathers'.

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

That's what I was thinking. Otherwise God gave some pretty unsavory individuals to the church, what with the burning at the stake, child abuse, and more.

 

[Rich R]

Apostles haven't been around since the first century Rich, but there are millions of disciples today. The Jews of the covenant are the bride of Christ sir. The rest of us, what you call Gentiles are the citizens of the Kingdom under their rulership.

Well, actually Ephesians 2 (particularly vs 14 & 15) is clear that God made a new creation composed of both Jews and Gentiles. They are called the Body of Christ. That body is the dwelling place of God. Just read Ephesians 2. You'll see it.

Then there's this:

Gal 3:28,

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
​

Personally, I think Ephesians is the acme of God's wonderful plan of redemption for all, whether Jew or Gentile.

 

[David in NJ]

Well, actually Ephesians 2 (particularly vs 14 & 15) is clear that God made a new creation composed of both Jews and Gentiles. They are called the Body of Christ. That body is the dwelling place of God. Just read Ephesians 2. You'll see it.

Rich, there is a major push by the cultists to teach doctrines of demons and one of those doctrines is the separation of Jew and Gentile in the Body of Christ.

JESUS says: "What God has joined together let no man separate."

 

[Rich R]

Rich, there is a major push by the cultists to teach doctrines of demons and one of those doctrines is the separation of Jew and Gentile in the Body of Christ.

JESUS says: "What God has joined together let no man separate."

Yes. Not many Christians have been taught that the Apostle Paul was give a gospel that is quite different than that of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.

Rom 2:16,

In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my (Paul's) gospel.​

Rom 16:25,

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel (Paul's), and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

The Gentiles had no part in the promise God made to Israel in the OT. That includes the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.

Matt 15:24,

But he (Jesus) answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
​

Eph 2:11-12,

11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:​

Until the Day of Pentecost the Gentiles were just flat out of luck. It was to Paul that God gave the revelation of the mystery He had kept a secret since the world began, that God made a new creation composed of both Jew and Gentile.

Rom 16:25,

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my (Paul) gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

But Paul was not able to preach this new Gospel to everyone because of carnality.

1 Cor 2:1-7,

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:​

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:​

But to those with ears to hear, Paul preached his gospel of the body, not the bride of the OT, of Christ (Eph 2:16).

Eph 3:9-10,

9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
​

Now is now, the age of grace.

​

Christians need to get out of the good news given to the Jews in the OT (including the Gospels), and walk in the greatness of the reality that we are one with God and Jesus, to walk together as one body.

As I alluded above, the reason Paul could not go beyond the cross with the Corinthians was that they were carnal, they constantly fought within themselves (1 Cor 3:3). As long as Christians continue to condemn each other to damnation, they will never see the greatness of the mystery of the one body that God revealed for the first time to Paul.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes. Not many Christians have been taught that the Apostle Paul was give a gospel that is quite different than that of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.

Rom 2:16,

In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my (Paul's) gospel.​

Rom 16:25,

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel (Paul's), and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

The Gentiles had no part in the promise God made to Israel in the OT. That includes the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.

Matt 15:24,

But he (Jesus) answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
​

Until the Day of Pentecost the Gentiles were just flat out of luck. It was to Paul that God gave the revelation of the mystery He had kept a secret since the world began, that God made a new creation composed of both Jew and Gentile.

Rom 16:25,

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my (Paul) gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

Eph 2:11-12,

11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:​

1 Cor 2:1-7,

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:​

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:​

Eph 3:9,

And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
​

Christians need to get out of the good news given to the Jews in the OT (including the Gospels), and walk in the greatness of the reality that we are one with God and Jesus, to walk together as one body.

The reason Paul could not go beyond the cross with the Corinthians was that they were carnal, they constantly fought within themselves (1 Cor 3:3). As long as they continue to condemn each other to damnation, they will not see the greatness of the mystery of the one body that God revealed for the first time to Paul.

I have heard this 'Paul Gospel' before and i do not agree with the story line.

God has always planned for the Gentiles to be brought in thru the Gospel and HE already had Gentiles in His People thru faith.
One of the most prominent Gentiles in the Faith of Abraham was Rahab, who is in the direct lineage of Christ.

There is only One Gospel for the Jew and the Gentile.

And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the Passover: No foreigner shall eat it. But every man’s servant who is bought for money, when you have circumcised him, then he may eat it. A sojourner and a hired servant shall not eat it. In one house it shall be eaten; you shall not carry any of the flesh outside the house, nor shall you break one of its bones. All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.
And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it.
One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you.”

 

[Rich R]

I have heard this 'Paul Gospel' before and i do not agree with the story line.

God has always planned for the Gentiles to be brought in thru the Gospel and HE already had Gentiles in His People thru faith.
One of the most prominent Gentiles in the Faith of Abraham was Rahab, who is in the direct lineage of Christ.

There is only One Gospel for the Jew and the Gentile.

And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the Passover: No foreigner shall eat it. But every man’s servant who is bought for money, when you have circumcised him, then he may eat it. A sojourner and a hired servant shall not eat it. In one house it shall be eaten; you shall not carry any of the flesh outside the house, nor shall you break one of its bones. All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.
And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it.
One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you.”

Well, in the OT a Gentile could be joined up with the Jews. As such they became part of the Bride of Christ. Paul talked about the Body of Christ.

In the OT God dwelt in the tabernacle. According to Paul, God dwells within the body, where there is no Jew or Gentile.

Col 3:10-11,

10 and have put on the new man, which is being renewed unto knowledge after the image of him that created him:

11 where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman: but Christ is all, and in all.
​

You won't see that anywhere in the OT.

How do you take the words that Paul uttered, "my gospel?" Are you saying it was the same gospel as Matt-John?

 

[David in NJ]

Well, in the OT a Gentile could be joined up with the Jews. As such they became part of the Bride of Christ. Paul talked about the Body of Christ.

In the OT God dwelt in the tabernacle. According to Paul, God dwells within the body, where there is no Jew or Gentile.

Col 3:10-11,

10 and have put on the new man, which is being renewed unto knowledge after the image of him that created him:

11 where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman: but Christ is all, and in all.
​

You won't see that anywhere in the OT.

How do you take the words that Paul uttered, "my gospel?" Are you saying it was the same gospel as Matt-John?

We see Jew and Gentile as One Body in the LORD's Passover that i just gave you.

Study the Gospel of John.

the Apostle Paul preached the same Gospel and he rebuked Peter for falling away from the Gospel of Christ, going backwards into Judaism.

 

[David in NJ]

Well, in the OT a Gentile could be joined up with the Jews. As such they became part of the Bride of Christ. Paul talked about the Body of Christ.

In the OT God dwelt in the tabernacle. According to Paul, God dwells within the body, where there is no Jew or Gentile.

Col 3:10-11,

10 and have put on the new man, which is being renewed unto knowledge after the image of him that created him:

11 where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman: but Christ is all, and in all.
​

You won't see that anywhere in the OT.

How do you take the words that Paul uttered, "my gospel?" Are you saying it was the same gospel as Matt-John?

The Body of Christ is the Bride of Christ.

The LORD does not have a Bride made from the flesh of Jews.

HE does have a Bride that is Born-Again by the Spirit into His Body - Jew & Gentile = One Body, One Spirit, One Faith, One Baptism

 

[Rich R]

The Body of Christ is the Bride of Christ.

The LORD does not have a Bride made from the flesh of Jews.

HE does have a Bride that is Born-Again by the Spirit into His Body - Jew & Gentile = One Body, One Spirit, One Faith, One Baptism

What do you think is the mystery that was hid in God until He revealed it to Paul?

Col 1:26,

even the mystery which hath been hid from all ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to his saints,​

Whist is "now" if not in contrast to the past ages and generations? Did Moses or Isaiah know this mystery?

Eph 3:9,

and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which from all ages hath been hid in God who created all things;
​

Sure seems like God told Paul something He had never told anyone else. What's your take on that?

Thanks

 

[bbyrd009]

No, just the opposite. The date when I received the revelation from God.

so, i was just kinda razzing you before, but what did Titus mean @ Theos? It is xlated as "God" to us, but im pretty sure that what we mean by that is not what Titus meant

 

[David in NJ]

W

What do you think is the mystery that was hid in God until He revealed it to Paul?

Col 1:26,

even the mystery which hath been hid from all ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to his saints,​

Whist is "now" if not in contrast to the past ages and generations? Did Moses or Isaiah know this mystery?

Eph 3:9,

and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which from all ages hath been hid in God who created all things;
​

Sure seems like God told Paul something He had never told anyone else. What's your take on that?

Thanks

The MYSTERY was who is the IAM that spoke to Moses - this is the BEGINNING of Revelation thru the Gospel and the Apostles unto Revelation.

 

[Rich R]

W


The MYSTERY was who is the IAM that spoke to Moses - this is the BEGINNING of Revelation thru the Gospel and the Apostles unto Revelation.

Well. from this and your previous statement that the Bride is the same as the Body, I can tell you don't understand the mystery that I'm talking about, the one that was hid in God until He revealed it to Paul. I don't mean to demean you in any way for a lack of knowledge. One can't know what they've never been taught. I have no illusions about my not knowing everything. However, I do know about and understand the greatness of that mystery. That much I know

At one time I didn't know about it. I though pretty much like yourself. However, when I was presented with the scriptures, I did not summarily dismiss the idea. Little by little, as I continued to study, I came to realize that the mystery God revealed to Paul is the absolute icing on the the cake when it comes to God's plan of redemption. Now that I've introduced you to the idea, you have to decide if you want to just blow it off or if you want to investigate the matter further. I can't tell you how much your appreciation for God's plan will grow, but in the end it's your choice brother.

God bless

 

[David in NJ]

Well. from this and your previous statement that the Bride is the same as the Body, I can tell you don't understand the mystery that I'm talking about, the one that was hid in God until He revealed it to Paul. I don't mean to demean you in any way for a lack of knowledge. One can't know what they've never been taught. I have no illusions about my not knowing everything. However, I do know about and understand the greatness of that mystery. That much I know

At one time I didn't know about it. I though pretty much like yourself. However, when I was presented with the scriptures, I did not summarily dismiss the idea. Little by little, as I continued to study, I came to realize that the mystery God revealed to Paul is the absolute icing on the the cake when it comes to God's plan of redemption. Now that I've introduced you to the idea, you have to decide if you want to just blow it off or if you want to investigate the matter further. I can't tell you how much your appreciation for God's plan will grow, but in the end it's your choice brother.

God bless

Your mystery will always be a mystery unto yourself.

God's Mystery is Jew and Gentile in One Body = the Body of Christ = His Bride.

the Apostle Paul does not subscribe to your mystery

Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly—and indeed you do bear with me. 2For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the [a]simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!

 

[Rich R]

Your mystery will always be a mystery unto yourself.

God's Mystery is Jew and Gentile in One Body = the Body of Christ = His Bride.

the Apostle Paul does not subscribe to your mystery

Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly—and indeed you do bear with me. 2For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the [a]simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!

My mystery? The only mystery I mentioned is the one that is in the verses I quoted.

Rom 16:25,

Now to him that is able to stablish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal,
​

It's not my gospel that will establish anyone according to the revelation of the mystery. That would be Paul's gospel.

Col 1:25-27,

25 whereof I was made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which was given me to you-ward, to fulfill the word of God,

26 even the mystery which hath been hid from all ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to his saints,

27 to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
​

I didn't keep the mystery hid in the past, nor did I reveal it in this age. It was God's doing.

Eph 3:2-3,

2 if so be that ye have heard of the dispensation of that grace of God which was given me to you-ward;

3 how that by revelation was made known unto me the mystery, as I wrote afore in few words,​

God didn't reveal the mystery to me. He revealed it to Paul

Eph 3:9,

and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which from all ages hath been hid in God who created all things;​

The mystery wasn't hid in me. It was hid in God.

My mystery? No. I could never have dreamed up something as earth shattering as that. Only God had the brilliance to do such a thing.

You might want to revisit 1 Cor chapters 1 & 2 to see why they didn't get it.

 

[Philip James]

There is no such thing as 'church fathers'.

Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Peace be with you!

 

[David in NJ]

Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Peace be with you!

i was born and raised as RC

Paul was not establishing 'church fathers' here, as has been endorsed by RCC.

JESUS said: Call no man rabbi or father for One is your Teacher and One is your Father.