What and when is the rapture? Part one

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Marty fox

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Introduction

Does the bible really teach us that the rapture is the church being rescued by Jesus from a 7 year tribulation?

Actually, the rapture or even a seven year tribulation is not mentioned in the book of Revelation. The book of Revelation shows the church going through a 3 1/2 year persecution by a beast. This is a modern interpretation. In order to obtain truth, we need to be willing to sacrifice cherished traditions on the alter of scriptural revelation. This is what I will propose in this article.

What the book of Revelation doesn’t say about the rapture.

The book of Revelation was given with a specific warning to 7 churches of what would soon take place. Within this book of the bible a solemn promise is given that Jesus will stand with them and reward them for their trials and tribulations. The book of Revelation is written for us but not written to us.

Why would God choose one generation to be saved from persecutions and all of the other generations to suffer through them? It is great a privilege to suffer for Christ.

Here are some verses in the bible that leads some to believe is applicable to the rapture.

Revelation 4:12 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

This is not the rapture. It says come up here and I will show YOU (meaning John) what must take place after this. John is taken in the Spirit and receives a vision in heaven.

Some also believe that Revelation 3:10-12 is the rapture.

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

In Revelation 3:11-12 Jesus tells them to hold on so that no one can take their crown so they can overcome and be rewarded. This was a personable letter given to the church of Philadelphia, it wasn’t written to us, instead it was written for us.
Is the rapture in the Olivet Discourse?

Some also believe that Matthew 24:31 is the rapture

And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his ELECT from the four winds,from one end of the heavens to the other.

This is not the rapture either. Matthew, Mark and Luke tell us that the ELECT are the chosen Jews that God saved during the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. 1.1 million Jews were killed during the siege on Jerusalem and 97 000 people were taken captives.

These verses are during this conflict that was in their future and in our past.

1.Mark 13:20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the ELECT, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them

2.Luke 21:24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

3.Matthew 24:22-24 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the ELECT those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the ELECT

The ones taken in Matthew 24:40-41 are not raptured either, they are taken in judgment.

Matthew 24:36-41 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

In Noah’s time it was better to be left than to be taken.

In verse 39, it says that the flood came and took them away. They are taken in judgment, the people were killed by the flood. The ones left behind were on the ark safe and sound. The ones in Noah’s day are taken away just like the ones in verse 40-41 are taken away. Thus they are taken in judgment. I would want to be left behind safe and secure.
 
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ewq1938

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The ones taken in Matthew 24:40-41 are not raptured either, they are taken in judgment.

No, they are taken from the world because the wrath of God is coming. This is another way of describing the rapture.



In Noah’s time it was better to be left than to be taken.

Nope. The only way to survive the flood was to be taken into the Ark. Those left outside of it drowned. The Greek word for left includes leaving someone to die.
 
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Marty fox

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Not
No, they are taken from the world because the wrath of God is coming. This is another way of describing the rapture.





Nope. The only way to survive the flood was to be taken into the Ark. Those left outside of it drowned. The Greek word for left includes leaving someone to die.

Not according to the last verse below

Luke 17:26-37
26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man.27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything.32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36]

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”
 

Davy

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WARNING BRETHREN:
Don't be deceived by the OP propaganda.

There WILL be a time of "great tribulation" for the end like Lord Jesus showed. It is true that tribulation period will NOT be for 7 years, but for 3 and 1/2 years initially. I say initially because that was the 'original' time length given in the prophecies of the Book of Daniel, and is repeated in Christ's Book of Revelation.

But Lord Jesus said in His Olivet discourse that He shortened the trib time for His elect's sake (Matthew 24:22). In Revelation He actually showed what it would be shortened to (go do your own homework, don't ask me to reveal it).

So these arguments over how long the "great tribulation" will be are just men's silly speculations and nothing more.

These same folks who don't really know what they're talking about, because it's obvious they don't really study their Bible for themselves, but just throw up men's vomit of traditions they catch from hirelings in their pulpits, nor do they understand about the gathering event to Christ Jesus, which some call a rapture.

The word rapture truly is not written in the Greek New Testament. It is actually a word from the Latin for Greek harpazo which is... in the Greek New Testament. The word rapture is brought into English from the Latin. So it is a legit word that means the same idea as being "caught up" which the KJV translators used for the Greek word harpazo in 1 Thessalonians 4. What's the problem with it then??

It is HOW the word 'rapture' is used that becomes the problem with false Bible teaching.

The Pre-tribulational Rapture theory uses that word rapture in place of KJV "caught up". The problem is NOT with that word 'rapture'. The problem is with THEIR TIMING of that rapture event. Lord Jesus specifically showed that the time of His return and gathering of His saints is AFTER THE TRIBULATION, not prior like the Pre-trib Rapture folks wrongly teach.

I prefer to use the actual KJV wording of "caught up", just because... of the false Pre-trib Rapture timing abuse of that word rapture.
 
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ewq1938

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Not according to the last verse below

Luke 17:26-37
26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man.27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

This translation doesn't even have the word taken in it but anyways, in the one taken one left verses, taken is a word that means non-harmful taking like taking a friend to a movie or a loved one to dinner. In the verse you have, a different Greek word is used that can mean to take someone life away. The other word does not have such a meaning. Secondly, this passage is not a part of the one taken verses. IOW these two verses cannot be used to redefine the meaning of taken in the other verses.
 

Davy

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This translation doesn't even have the word taken in it but anyways, in the one taken one left verses, taken is a word that means non-harmful taking like taking a friend to a movie or a loved one to dinner. In the verse you have, a different Greek word is used that can mean to take someone life away. The other word does not have such a meaning. Secondly, this passage is not a part of the one taken verses. IOW these two verses cannot be used to redefine the meaning of taken in the other verses.

That does not work. You cannot 'try' to change the meaning of Christ's answer in that final Luke 17 verse just with word play upon the word 'taken'.

Here is the Matthew 24 version of Christ's answer to His Apostle's question of where those 'taken' would be 'taken' to...

Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

KJV

Look up that word "carcase" and see if you can try to change that. It literally means a dead carcase in the Greek too though, so good luck with that.

And Jesus' answer is that those fowls are where those AS a dead carcase, will be gathered to. And you're going to tell us that means to Jesus!??!%*!?

Ultimately Jesus at the end of Luke 17 is teaching that HIS servants DO NOT want to be the first one 'taken'. Instead, He wants His servants to REMAIN in the field (world) working (for Him) when He comes and finds them still giving meat in due season, like He taught in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24.
 
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Truth7t7

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Introduction

Does the bible really teach us that the rapture is the church being rescued by Jesus from a 7 year tribulation?

Actually, the rapture or even a seven year tribulation is not mentioned in the book of Revelation. The book of Revelation shows the church going through a 3 1/2 year persecution by a beast. This is a modern interpretation. In order to obtain truth, we need to be willing to sacrifice cherished traditions on the alter of scriptural revelation. This is what I will propose in this article.

What the book of Revelation doesn’t say about the rapture.

The book of Revelation was given with a specific warning to 7 churches of what would soon take place. Within this book of the bible a solemn promise is given that Jesus will stand with them and reward them for their trials and tribulations. The book of Revelation is written for us but not written to us.

Why would God choose one generation to be saved from persecutions and all of the other generations to suffer through them? It is great a privilege to suffer for Christ.

Here are some verses in the bible that leads some to believe is applicable to the rapture.

Revelation 4:12 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

This is not the rapture. It says come up here and I will show YOU (meaning John) what must take place after this. John is taken in the Spirit and receives a vision in heaven.

Some also believe that Revelation 3:10-12 is the rapture.

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

In Revelation 3:11-12 Jesus tells them to hold on so that no one can take their crown so they can overcome and be rewarded. This was a personable letter given to the church of Philadelphia, it wasn’t written to us, instead it was written for us.
Is the rapture in the Olivet Discourse?

Some also believe that Matthew 24:31 is the rapture

And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his ELECT from the four winds,from one end of the heavens to the other.

This is not the rapture either. Matthew, Mark and Luke tell us that the ELECT are the chosen Jews that God saved during the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. 1.1 million Jews were killed during the siege on Jerusalem and 97 000 people were taken captives.

These verses are during this conflict that was in their future and in our past.

1.Mark 13:20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the ELECT, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them

2.Luke 21:24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

3.Matthew 24:22-24 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the ELECT those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the ELECT

The ones taken in Matthew 24:40-41 are not raptured either, they are taken in judgment.

Matthew 24:36-41 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

In Noah’s time it was better to be left than to be taken.

In verse 39, it says that the flood came and took them away. They are taken in judgment, the people were killed by the flood. The ones left behind were on the ark safe and sound. The ones in Noah’s day are taken away just like the ones in verse 40-41 are taken away. Thus they are taken in judgment. I would want to be left behind safe and secure.
The 70AD destruction of Jerusalem played no part in fulfillment of Matthew chapter 24 as suggested

The entire chapter of Matthew 24 surrounds events that will be seen, that usher in the literal second coming of Jesus Christ

1.) Matthew 24:15 Daniels AOD "Future"
2.) Matthew 24:21 The Great Tribulation "Future"
3.) Matthew 24:30-31 The Visible Second Coming "Future"

Marty you deny that a literal, visible, second coming is seen below in Matthew 24:30-31, you claim this is a mere "symbolic" judgment upon Israel that took place in the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem

Marty, your presented teaching in 70AD fulfillment is pretty hard to take seriously, my opinion

Once again, you deny a literal, visible, second coming of Jesus Christ is seen below, really hard to believe but true

Matthew 24:30-31KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
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Truth7t7

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No, they are taken from the world because the wrath of God is coming. This is another way of describing the rapture.





Nope. The only way to survive the flood was to be taken into the Ark. Those left outside of it drowned. The Greek word for left includes leaving someone to die.
No such thing as a "Pre-trib" rapture of the church to heaven found in scripture, it's a fabricated fairy tale of John N. Darby and promited by C.I. Scofield's 1909 reference bible
 

ewq1938

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No such thing as a "Pre-trib" rapture of the church to heaven found in scripture, it's a fabricated fairy tale of John N. Darby and promited by C.I. Scofield's 1909 reference bible

The rapture is post-trib, just prior to God's wrath happening. Also, the pre-trib nonsense existed long before Darby. Even Paul had to address it.
 

GRACE ambassador

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op: "what and when is rapture?"

Hey, might as well join in on Great Discussion, and DO IT AGAIN!
You never know when "New blood" may wish to review/study!! Amen?:
My previous response was to this quote (SD): "Post trib rapture fits what
Jesus and Paul say, and is the only reason I believe in Post Trib pov.":

Of course, The Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided is the only reason I believe in the PRE-TOJT pov:

Part I

God’s PRE - TOJT Great GRACE Departure!:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

LORD JESUS, we beseech Thee Now For Thy Divine Understanding
In This Thy Most Important Doctrine For our Comfort And Consolation.
Amen. (1 Thessalonians 4:18)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With The
Second Coming
, is found in God's Context:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom
(“ages” past/future) (Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world”
(Matthew 25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9!)

-------------------

The Second Coming, According to Prophecy:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew 24:29; Revelation 19:16, 11!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On
His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(3) CHRIST Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!),
His armies * on white horses! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth With ONE army *, “All Of His holy angels,”
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…
(Matthew 25:31; Revelation 19:11, 15)

(5) With Another trumpet (AFTER "the 7th angel trumpet” in heaven), on
the earth, Angels Are SENT, By The KING, TO:gather the elect”...
(Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27!)

(6)...for the “judgment of the Earthly Nations” By The Son of man, The King!
(Matthew 25:31-46!)

(7) Those Judged as righteous then enter the kingdom! And the UNrighteous
then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!
(Matthew 25:34-46!)

To be continued...
 

GRACE ambassador

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Part II

(Previously) The Second Coming, According to earthly Prophecy:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians 1:19-23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1 Thessalonians 4:16!)

3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:13!)

(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52-53!)

(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 5:1-2;
Ephesians 1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans 2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1 Corinthians 3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:10;
Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:24-25!)

(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians 5:27!)

(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven
, Where we Live * Forever And Ever! Amen!
(1 Thessalonians 3:13; Colossians 1:5, 22;
1 Corinthians 6:3; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 KJB!)

* Note, The ONE army Of The Body Of CHRIST, Must "have been
assigned our Heavenly positions" for ruling and reigning! Amen?

---------------------------------------------------------------

LORD JESUS, thank You so much for Your Precious Blood,
Gift Of ETERNAL Salvation,
And for Your Blessed Hope of
Glorification
When You Come To Finally Gather us Home! Amen.

---------------------------------------------------------
Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

Precious friend(s), see you In God's Great GloryLand!!:)
 
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