What are the main doctrinal differences between Jehovah's Witnesses and mainstream Christianity?

[Aunty Jane]

Rome converted from paganism by stages--1st Christian tolerance, and then full acceptance of Christianity for the whole State. To say that the religion itself was corrupt just because pagan elements remained within the government and the people, is not accurate, in my view. Flaws or imperfections does not render a Christian populace "corrupt." It is when the standards, as well as the practices, deteriorate that the original product can be viewed as "corrupted."

This is a clear case of gradualism, for which the devil is notorious. Little by little things are altered and ever so gradually he introduced perceptions that changed the way people saw God......from the monotheistic God of the Jews, we saw a metamorphosis into a triune being which was never mentioned in the Hebrew scriptures.

Triune gods were however seen in pagan religions. As noted above in post #39.

Mention of the "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" in the Greek scriptures never once calls them "God the Father", "God the Son" and "God the holy Spirit".....these were designations invented by the church.....they do not come from scripture. Jesus never once said that he was God and nowhere does the Bible call the holy spirit, "God".

Christianity adopted things like calendars and elements of previous pagan religion as a cultural continuity and not as a corruption of its religion. For example, an eagle may have been pagan Rome's symbol for a god. But Roman Christianity could just as easily find the eagle a popular symbol for Roman culture without worshiping it as a god. In fact, Christianity did *not* worship these pagan gods. I find nothing in ancient Christianity that indicates worshiping Roman gods is okay.

Counterfeit "Christianity" adopted many things that God would have rejected.....the days of the week and months of the year for example could have been dispensed with when Pope Gregory authorized his calendar.....why retain the names of pagan gods? The Jews never did that with their calendar. Where was the honor for the God they claimed to worship?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, according to Trinitarian belief, Jesus can be both servant and lord, both human and divine. That is Trinitarianism 101.

And yes, Christians believe that Jesus claimed deity. He was nearly stoned for identifying with the great "I Am."

A little deeper study will reveal that Jesus never said "I Am". This was not the meaning of God's name in the first place.

Have you read Exodus 3:13-15 in the Jewish Tanakh?

"And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"

יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:

14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"

ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:

15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God [יְהֹוָ֞ה] of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation."

טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

The Jews didn't think that God's name was "I AM" because his name has a much broader meaning than merely a statement of his existence.
Yahweh was to "be" or to "become" whatever he needed to be in order to accomplish his purpose concerning his chosen nation. They never made it easy.

Exodus 3:14 has nothing whatever to do with John 8:58 except in the minds of those who want it to.

The name "Son of Man" may itself have had supernatural connotations from Dan 7, where the Son of Man comes down from heaven. Jews may deny this today, but I believe that in ancient times some Jews felt that the "Son of Man" was a divine figure, an anthropomorphism or angelic figure representing God, a theophany.

In Hebrew this is mainly a translation of the expression ben-ʼa·dhamʹ. Instead of referring to the person, Adam, ʼa·dhamʹ is here used generically for “mankind” so that the expression ben-ʼa·dhamʹ means, in essence, “a son of mankind, a human, an earthling son.”
So the name "son of man" denotes the humanity of the individual.....Ezekiel was addressed the same way. (Ezek 2:1,3,6,8)
Jesus was a "son of man", being born of a human woman. He was of divine origin, but he was not a deity.

 

[Aunty Jane]

As such, Jesus may have been indicating his Deity. Also, his claim to be able to "forgive sin" was seen in his time to be the exclusive rights of Deity. This wasn't just "forgiving a neighbor," but much more, being in a sense the "atonement" for sin, assuming the role both of high priest and God.

Can you tell me how Jesus can be a High Priest of his God, and at the same time be his God?
Like John 1:1 says that the Word was "with God", so how can he be "with God" if he was God?
It makes no logical sense.

I don't know where you get this? The Jews clearly believed in life after death, although apparently some religious leaders didn't believe in the resurrection of the body. There are a number of passages indicating this, not the least of which is Dan 12, where the resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked is mentioned.

The later Jews adopted the pagan Greek idea of an immortal soul, but the ancient Jews had no such teaching......it is absent from their scripture. Jews were taught about resurrection, which was a return to life, not a continuation of it somewhere else.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The reference to "sleep" has nothing to do with unconsciousness after death, since Saul was brought up by the witch of Endor, and he was very much *awake!* The term "sleep" refers to the appearance of the body as a lifeless hulk. It represents the person whose body is dead but whose spirit is alive and yet waiting for a future body in a conscious state. The body with eyes closed merely "looks" like its sleeping, when in reality the spirit is gone from the corpse.

Again, what do you know about the circumstances surrounding the account about the witch of Endor?
Perhaps if you read it again you might see some things that were not obvious in a cursory reading....?
First of all Saul had been abandoned by God for his disobedience. God's prophets used to counsel him, especially the prophet Samuel, but Samuel had passed away and Saul felt the abandonment of his God because the living prophets would have nothing to do with him.....so he found the only spirit medium in the land and broke God's law to consult her.....when he was the one whom God commanded to rid the land of these demonic people.

The "witch" (spirit medium) was the only one who saw and heard "Samuel". But since the Jews back then had no belief in life after death, it was not really "Samuel", but a wicked spirit impersonating him. Why would a dead prophet speak to Saul when the living prophets would not?

Here I will at least partly agree with you. I don't believe God tortures people. They may assume a place outside of God's city in the New Jerusalem, but the torment is of their own making--they've chosen to live outside of God's presence. "Outer Darkness" is a better term than "Hell." It just refers to living outside of the light of God's presence. I do believe there are limited forms of punishment, but they are only called "eternal" because the abandonment to being outside of the City lasts forever.

There is no punishment after death.....where is that written? The wicked die and are never seen again.
Isn't that what Jesus said?
Matt 10:28...
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. [gehenna]"

The wicked are "destroyed" in Gehenna......they are not permitted to live anywhere. There is no point because God's first purpose was to have perfect sinless humans inhabit this beautiful planet forever. God has no use for those who cannot or will not comply with his will.

 

[Randy Kluth]

That, I believe was the problem...instead of the Roman culture adapting to Christianity, they adapted the Christianity to fit what was already held as truth in their religion. IOW, they did not "Christianize" the paganism but "paganized" the Christianity....

The sun as you know, features strongly in Catholic worship. Even the wafer is in the shape of the sun. When Jesus broke the bread it wasn't in any particular shape. What justification can there be for this?

I answered this already. It's a standard judgment leveled against Christianity. Pagan symbols are no longer "paganism" to Christians, for whom all things are pure whose hearts are pure. The same meat offered to an idol by a pagan is meat for food for the Christian. A symbol of the sun used in pagan worship is purely art for the Christian. The water used in an occult ceremony is bath water for the Christian.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Can you tell me how Jesus can be a High Priest of his God, and at the same time be his God?
Like John 1:1 says that the Word was "with God", so how can he be "with God" if he was God?
It makes no logical sense.

Again, this is Trinitarianism 101. The Word of God has infinite capacities and can reveal an infinite Deity in finite human terms. As such, the One who designs the priest can design him to emit, in limited form, the Personality of the One who designed him.

The difference might be described as a segment of a line (Jesus) compared to an eternal line (the infinite Deity). Is the line segment distinct from the eternal line? Yes, but it is also part of that eternal line.

Jesus said that when we see him as a man, we also see the Father--the eternal God. We see the Divine Personality in the form of a finite human personality. As such, the human one can relate to the Divine Other and show distinction while at the same time sharing the same essential Divine Personality and substance.

Jesus showed the infinite God in finite form. As such, He showed God in limited form on earth, while at the same time emerging from the infinite eternal God.

The later Jews adopted the pagan Greek idea of an immortal soul, but the ancient Jews had no such teaching......it is absent from their scripture. Jews were taught about resurrection, which was a return to life, not a continuation of it somewhere else.

I don't agree. Resurrection, as I showed you, was in Daniel 12. And it was in other places, like Isaiah, where it was expressed the death would be conquered.

In the record of the NT, the Pharisees believed in a bodily resurrection. I don't know where you get your information, but the Jews themselves have said their ancient beliefs included belief in the eternal soul. The account of the Witch of Endor clearly spells out belief in human consciousness after death, since King Saul was brought back in a conscious state.

Some of this may be confusion over what a "soul" is after death, as opposed to our current sense of a physical body. What we will be in the "resurrection" is something Paul said was almost incomprehensible (1 Cor 15).

 

[Randy Kluth]

Again, what do you know about the circumstances surrounding the account about the witch of Endor?
Perhaps if you read it again you might see some things that were not obvious in a cursory reading....?
First of all Saul had been abandoned by God for his disobedience. God's prophets used to counsel him, especially the prophet Samuel, but Samuel had passed away and Saul felt the abandonment of his God because the living prophets would have nothing to do with him.....so he found the only spirit medium in the land and broke God's law to consult her.....when he was the one whom God commanded to rid the land of these demonic people.

The "witch" (spirit medium) was the only one who saw and heard "Samuel". But since the Jews back then had no belief in life after death, it was not really "Samuel", but a wicked spirit impersonating him. Why would a dead prophet speak to Saul when the living prophets would not?

But you are assuming what you wish to prove! You have not proven that the Jews back then had no belief in life after death! You are basing your argument on an unproven claim!

I would say that the Jews back then very much believed in the eternity of the human soul, and as such, in life after death. And I base that on biblical statements that for Israel death would be conquered. Also, the original apostles were all Jews, and never stated that the Christian belief in resurrection ran counter to Jewish belief!

There is no punishment after death.....where is that written? The wicked die and are never seen again.
Isn't that what Jesus said?
Matt 10:28...
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. [gehenna]"

The wicked are "destroyed" in Gehenna......they are not permitted to live anywhere. There is no point because God's first purpose was to have perfect sinless humans inhabit this beautiful planet forever. God has no use for those who cannot or will not comply with his will.

Actually, I did say there is punishment after death. I was just saying I agree with you that eternal punishment is not eternal "torture." The punishment is the issuing of an eternal edict, placing one in Outer Darkness, where the torment will have been self-imposed.

There will be "whippings" of a kind initially. But this may just be variations on a verdict, indicating some are placed nearer or farther away from God's light and love. That is, the "whippings" are hearing the issuing of individual verdicts, all of which result in separation from the holy City.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I have no questions. I already know the answers. The JWs I have encountered have convinced me that the JW religion is totally Satanic. Add that that my thorough knowledge of the Bible; and yeah even the demonic New World Translation joke.
I have no interest in engaging in any kind of theological discussion with JWs. They have already made their choice..

Similar here. I love studying my different faiths and have attended dozens of them throughput the years, just to better understand and love my neighbor. Of these dozens of faiths, Christian and non, JW were the only ones that it was a downright negative experience all around. And i tried really really hard to find good- went to over a dozen meetings in like 4 different cities, thinking that maybe it was just one bad apple. The mountain of evidence forced me to conclude otherwise.

 

[Patrick1966]

I don't believe that the prohibition against celebrating the birth of Christ, as well as the births of others, is biblical. I'm not concerned with the beliefs and practices of pagans. I know what I'm celebrating and that's all that really matters to me. With that said, it can certainly be argued that we don't celebrate the birth of Christ in a way that truly honors him.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Randy Kluth, just a few important points from your responses….again, I’ll split them up….

Pagan symbols are no longer "paganism" to Christians, for whom all things are pure whose hearts are pure.

Does it not strike you as odd that the pure worship of the true God became contaminated by the trappings of false worship even in Israel's day? We Christians have the Biblical admonition not to do that, and yet the churches celebrate all manner of renamed and repurposed formerly pagan occasions. (2 Cor 6:14-18).....Christmas, New Years Day, Easter, Lent, Valentine's Day, Mother's Day, birthdays etc...
Why would God approve of false religious customs and beliefs mixed in with his worship, when he punished Israel for doing the same thing?

The golden calf incident is a classic example of this…..when Moses was up in the mountain receiving his instructions, the people wanted to hold a "festival to Jehovah", but they did so with an idol god which they called “Jehovah”…a leftover from the pagan worship of the Egyptians. What was God’s response to them using pagan practices to honor him? Moses was furious with them and threw down the tablets on which the Ten Commandments were written….then God had the offenders put to death!

Jesus said that when we see him as a man, we also see the Father--the eternal God. We see the Divine Personality in the form of a finite human personality.

Col 1:15 says of Jesus…..”He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation”…..he is the “image” of his Father…..the exact representation of his personality in human form, but he is a “servant” of his God and Father. (Acts 4:27) We are also "made in God's image" so we are supposed to reflect the Creator's qualities too. Jesus did so perfectly.

Jesus is also now a High Priest in heaven…..so how does one part of God, serve as his own High Priest?

When giving the Revelation to John, which was well after his ascension to heaven, Jesus said…..
”‘The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.”

The Father is still the God of Jesus even in heaven. How can one part of God worship an equal part of himself? If it is Jehovah who gives us our sense of logic, then nothing in the Bible should insult it.

The very fact that they are called by the familiar designations of ”Father” and “son” (which are exclusively human terms) indicates to me that we are to view them this way. Jesus is God’s “firstborn”….a uniquely created son, who preceded all the other “sons of God”.…and was instrumental in bringing about their creation As it says in Col 1:16-17…
”because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist”.

How can we ignore such direct statements? This speaks of agency…..Jesus is not the Creator but the agent used to facilitate it under God’s direction.

Resurrection, as I showed you, was in Daniel 12. And it was in other places, like Isaiah, where it was expressed the death would be conquered.

Death is conquered by Jesus removing the cause of human death....sin. We are not designed to die, being made in the image of God ourselves, we have the capacity for everlasting life because it was God’s first purpose for humans to live forever on earth…..he provided the means right there in the garden of Eden….the “tree of life”. Only when sin had entered the world was access to this tree denied. (Gen 3:22-24) This earth is not, and never has been, a training ground for heaven.
At the outset, no human was ever meant to go to heaven….and only because of the sin introduced by the first rebels was there a need for Jesus to come and rescue us.

 

[Aunty Jane]

In the record of the NT, the Pharisees believed in a bodily resurrection. I don't know where you get your information, but the Jews themselves have said their ancient beliefs included belief in the eternal soul. The account of the Witch of Endor clearly spells out belief in human consciousness after death, since King Saul was brought back in a conscious state.

The first century Jews were spiritually corrupted by their religious leaders as Jesus plainly stated. (Matt 23)

The ancient Jews had no belief in an immortal soul because that was adopted from Greek influence.
Read the account of Saul with the witch of Endor and see that “Samuel” was not brought back in a conscious state…..only the spirit medium saw and heard what this spirit said. Saul never saw or heard it. The woman told him what the spirit said.

If necromancy was forbidden to God’s people and included among the other spiritistic practices of the Canaanites, (Deut 18:9-12) isn’t it obvious that all these things are the devil’s tricks to perpetuate his first lie? He was the one who told the woman that she would not die…..God had told Adam that death was simply a return to the dust out of which he was created. (Gen 3:19) Death is the opposite of life…..who said it wasn’t? Satan did.

Some of this may be confusion over what a "soul" is after death, as opposed to our current sense of a physical body. What we will be in the "resurrection" is something Paul said was almost incomprehensible (1 Cor 15).

In the Bible a “soul” is never spoken of as a disembodied spirit. It is a living, breathing creature…..both man and animals are “souls”. Both experience the same kind of death…..(Eccl 3:19-20) Both end up in the same place.…they return to the dust.

The Bible also speaks of two resurrections….a “first resurrection” for those of the elect who are transformed into spirit beings in order to attain a heavenly resurrection as Jesus experienced. (Rev 20:6) And there are those who come back in the general resurrection “on the last day” (John 5:28-29) as Lazarus’ sister acknowledged when Jesus asked her about her hope for the future concerning her brother. So where did Jesus say that Lazarus was? Read the account in John 11:11-14; 20-24. Jesus said he was “sleeping”.

You have not proven that the Jews back then had no belief in life after death! You are basing your argument on an unproven claim!

No, I am not….the sister of Lazarus clearly stated her belief in the resurrection. She did not think her brother had gone somewhere else……and besides that we have Jesus‘ own words at John 3:13 to confirm that no one went to heaven before Jesus did. That being the case where were all the dead before Jesus opened the way to heaven for his elect?

I would say that the Jews back then very much believed in the eternity of the human soul, and as such, in life after death. And I base that on biblical statements that for Israel death would be conquered. Also, the original apostles were all Jews, and never stated that the Christian belief in resurrection ran counter to Jewish belief!

The Christian belief in the resurrection is the same as the ancient Jewish one, because the truth does not alter. What changed was the elect’s perception of their resurrection.
The nation of Israel were always promised that they would become “a royal priesthood and a holy nation”, which they believed was entirely earthly, but those unfaithful ones failed to fill the ranks, and were replaced with “the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16)…those of any nation who put faith in Jesus as the Messiah. (Acts 15:14; Acts 10:34-35)

Only when Jesus came and taught them what that would mean, did they come to understand by means of the Holy Spirit, that their resurrection would be different to that of their subjects. (Rev 20:6) Only they would be resurrected to heaven, whilst those not chosen for a heavenly role would enjoy a wonderful life on earth, as God purposed in the beginning. (Rev 21:2-4)

The punishment is the issuing of an eternal edict, placing one in Outer Darkness, where the torment will have been self-imposed.

There will be "whippings" of a kind initially. But this may just be variations on a verdict, indicating some are placed nearer or farther away from God's light and love. That is, the "whippings" are hearing the issuing of individual verdicts, all of which result in separation from the holy City.

Where on earth would I find such things written in the Bible? “Whippings”? I read only of the choice that all mankind has before them…..'obey God and live or disobey him and die'. Where was there ever a need to punish anyone after death? What is the point of that?

There never was a choice between “heaven and hell” because that is a corruption of the truth invented by “the church”.
Israel had no such knowledge in their scripture….because there never was a “heaven or hell“ scenario in the first place. Adam was never told about such a choice or he may have made a different decision back there in Eden. Adam simply died and went back to the dust as God said he would.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The first century Jews were spiritually corrupted by their religious leaders as Jesus plainly stated. (Matt 23)

That is fanciful guesswork if you don't have evidence of that. I never buy into assertions without proofs. My evidence is that Scripture indicates belief in an afterlife, and in the conscious state of the soul after death.

The ancient Jews had no belief in an immortal soul because that was adopted from Greek influence.
Read the account of Saul with the witch of Endor and see that “Samuel” was not brought back in a conscious state…..only the spirit medium saw and heard what this spirit said. Saul never saw or heard it. The woman told him what the spirit said.

Again, you are asserting what you haven't proven. The spirit of Samuel appears to *be* Samuel, as indicated in the text. Even if the activity was "illegal," that doesn't mean Samuel's spirit could not appear.

It seems it did. There is no evidence *from the text* that it wasn't Samuel. There is no evidence *from the text* that an illegal activity faked the appearance of Samuel. So you are using non-biblical arguments to prove your point, and inserting logic in place of what the text actually says.

If necromancy was forbidden to God’s people and included among the other spiritistic practices of the Canaanites, (Deut 18:9-12) isn’t it obvious that all these things are the devil’s tricks to perpetuate his first lie? He was the one who told the woman that she would not die…..God had told Adam that death was simply a return to the dust out of which he was created. (Gen 3:19) Death is the opposite of life…..who said it wasn’t? Satan did.

No, it is not evident *from the text* that an illegal activity necessarily perpetrated a deception or lie. You are saying that--not the Scriptures!

You are using non sequitur argument. Satan lies. Therefore, the activity of Satan in a witch must produce a lie. But in the text Samuel operated despite the activity of Satan and the illegal conduct of a witch. Samuel, acting by the Spirit of God, did not lie!

In the Bible a “soul” is never spoken of as a disembodied spirit. It is a living, breathing creature…..both man and animals are “souls”. Both experience the same kind of death…..(Eccl 3:19-20) Both end up in the same place.…they return to the dust.

I would dispute that.
Eccl 3.21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”

Besides this, there are mentions in the Bible of dead men alive in Sheol.

Isa 14.9 The realm of the dead below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.

The Bible also speaks of two resurrections….a “first resurrection” for those of the elect who are transformed into spirit beings in order to attain a heavenly resurrection as Jesus experienced. (Rev 20:6) And there are those who come back in the general resurrection “on the last day” (John 5:28-29) as Lazarus’ sister acknowledged when Jesus asked her about her hope for the future concerning her brother. So where did Jesus say that Lazarus was? Read the account in John 11:11-14; 20-24. Jesus said he was “sleeping”.

His body appeared to be in a "sleeping" state. There is no reference to where Lazarus' *spirit* was.

No, I am not….the sister of Lazarus clearly stated her belief in the resurrection. She did not think her brother had gone somewhere else……and besides that we have Jesus‘ own words at John 3:13 to confirm that no one went to heaven before Jesus did. That being the case where were all the dead before Jesus opened the way to heaven for his elect?

You are obviously not getting the gist of John 3.13 because Jesus full well knew that others before him had gone into heaven, whether at death or in vision. Jesus' sense is that he alone was able to go to heaven and return at will, whereas man, in his sinful state, cannot do that. At the time, the Law prevented Man from approaching God in any direct way, apart from some kind of mitigation for his sin.

The Christian belief in the resurrection is the same as the ancient Jewish one, because the truth does not alter. What changed was the elect’s perception of their resurrection.
The nation of Israel were always promised that they would become “a royal priesthood and a holy nation”, which they believed was entirely earthly, but those unfaithful ones failed to fill the ranks, and were replaced with “the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16)…those of any nation who put faith in Jesus as the Messiah. (Acts 15:14; Acts 10:34-35)

I'm not an advocate for "Replacement Theology." Israel was indeed a nation of priests, ie a nation with a priesthood that governed the religious rituals of the nation. It was also a nation that produced godly kings, enabling the co-existence of God's Kingdom with Israel's political state.

This cooperation between divine Kingdom and earthly king ended when Israel broke the New Covenant of Mosaic Law. They did this by abandoning their Christ, the King of David.

The Kingdom of God then was taken from Israel and given to a more worthy nation, namely the Roman state. The Roman Empire was converted to a Christian Empire, and continued through the Roman Church and its descendants throughout the ages, including Protestants and Independents, as well as through the Eastern Church and its associates. As God had predicted, Abraham would have many nations as heirs to his faith.

Only when Jesus came and taught them what that would mean, did they come to understand by means of the Holy Spirit, that their resurrection would be different to that of their subjects. (Rev 20:6) Only they would be resurrected to heaven, whilst those not chosen for a heavenly role would enjoy a wonderful life on earth, as God purposed in the beginning. (Rev 21:2-4)

I see none of that in Scriptures.

Where on earth would I find such things written in the Bible? “Whippings”? I read only of the choice that all mankind has before them…..'obey God and live or disobey him and die'. Where was there ever a need to punish anyone after death? What is the point of that?

The Scriptures refer to them as "stripes," which are what "whippings" are.
Another version reads...
Luke 12.47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.

Israel had no such knowledge in their scripture….because there never was a “heaven or hell“ scenario in the first place. Adam was never told about such a choice or he may have made a different decision back there in Eden. Adam simply died and went back to the dust as God said he would.

The OT called it Sheol, the NT Gehenna or Hades. All are in the Bible. Gehenna may describe the ultimate fate of Hell, which is a fire of destruction eternally removing one from God's paradise or city.

 

[dev553344]

Hey Aunty Jane, I don't eat meat with blood coming out of it and never have. Don't know why, I just don't ! A mate is mental about having blood come out of the meat, he just cooks under high heat both sides just enough to his standards ? and goes off his rocker if you do not eat it his way.
Now he can not have Ice cream Milk etc and I said that's because you do not cook your meat correctly, with blood in it !

Now I had a mate next door 1 year younger than me, knew him from day dot and he had a kidney transplant at 14yo ?
Well I am not for transplant's anymore after I seen all that he went through, I have to say honestly. he lived to 48yo tho, but his mind went and was always so glad to claim to be Jew and Anti-Christ. He would love to do the wrong thing by others, that was his legacy ! he wanted to be seen as a septic tank by everyone !

I am not for Blood transfusions as well, as it's not as they claim. as they are not truly open on the issue totally. If they set the standard ? that does not mean I am fine with their set standards ?

I am not for birthdays as well, especially for ones self, as I have seen some do, I think it disgusting ego trip, but if others want to do so for one that's ok.

I am not for Santa, but as for young children that's ok, but as for some adults like one of my brothers girl friend that is seen as a abomination Satanic ! It's all about the presents and they all must be worth over $50 or else I will rant and rave as possessed ! Like a Hitler dictating over all.

I love raw steak. It has to be bloody. Perhaps I'm a vampire then? LOL, well I'm not a JW. But I like raw steak on the fatty side. Like ribeye!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Does it not strike you as odd that the pure worship of the true God became contaminated by the trappings of false worship even in Israel's day? We Christians have the Biblical admonition not to do that, and yet the churches celebrate all manner of renamed and repurposed formerly pagan occasions. (2 Cor 6:14-18).....Christmas, New Years Day, Easter, Lent, Valentine's Day, Mother's Day, birthdays etc...
Why would God approve of false religious customs and beliefs mixed in with his worship, when he punished Israel for doing the same thing?

Paul taught about this. He talked about it when Christians confronted meat that had been offered to idols. To the Christian, the meat was still meat. Offering it to idols did not stop it from being meat.

However, Paul suggested that if it bothered young Christians who saw this as a compromise with paganism, they should not eat meat formerly offered to idols in front of them.

I already told you that pagan symbols can be converted into cultural symbols that are no longer viewed as "pagan." The symbols have artistic value, and create a sense of continuity. And they are associated with neutral subjects, like eagles and political states. The eagle symbol for Rome does not have to mean it is any longer a pagan state. It can simply refer to it as a strong imperial state.

My name may be the same prior to being a Christian and after becoming a Christian. The former name may have represented me as a pagan, but continued use of the name simply identifies me as a person and does not connote that I'm still a pagan!

We may have been brought up in a pagan state where a "lion" represented something violent and evil. But if the converted Christian state adopts that symbol to represent spiritual strength, to displace the former pagan meaning, then not only have people converted, but the meaning of the state has also been converted. That's not a bad thing.

Jesus is also now a High Priest in heaven…..so how does one part of God, serve as his own High Priest?

Jesus is a limited expression of the infinite God--not a "part" of God. He is wholly God in the limited form of a human being. That is the Christological formula--whole God and whole Man.

God provided a human expression of Himself to serve as priest on behalf of mankind. Unless God Himself expressed His suffering in the form of a man, and suffered sin Himself by that means, He did not consider mankind redeemed. Suffering vicariously through someone else is possible, but God actually suffered in human form. Otherwise, forgiveness is cheap. Let somebody else suffer, and I forgive. No!

Sorry, Jane, I'm not sure I can add much more to what I've already said. The infinite Deity can assume a finite expression of the same. This in effect produces a dual personality. The Spirit, also a finite expression of God everywhere in the finitude of the sky, adds a 3rd personage to Deity.

It may surprise you but I believe God doesn't have to be just a Trinity. I think that as an infinite Being He can express His personality in an infinite number of personages, entities encompassing all of heaven and whatever lies beyond. It is the Word of God that determines what God can do and what He did do. And Christians believe the Word of God enabled God to become a man.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Col 1:15 says of Jesus…..”He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation”…..he is the “image” of his Father…..the exact representation of his personality in human form, but he is a “servant” of his God and Father. (Acts 4:27) We are also "made in God's image" so we are supposed to reflect the Creator's qualities too. Jesus did so perfectly.

Jesus is also now a High Priest in heaven…..so how does one part of God, serve as his own High Priest?

When giving the Revelation to John, which was well after his ascension to heaven, Jesus said…..
”‘The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.”

The Father is still the God of Jesus even in heaven. How can one part of God worship an equal part of himself? If it is Jehovah who gives us our sense of logic, then nothing in the Bible should insult it.

The very fact that they are called by the familiar designations of ”Father” and “son” (which are exclusively human terms) indicates to me that we are to view them this way. Jesus is God’s “firstborn”….a uniquely created son, who preceded all the other “sons of God”.…and was instrumental in bringing about their creation As it says in Col 1:16-17…
”because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist”.

How can we ignore such direct statements? This speaks of agency…..Jesus is not the Creator but the agent used to facilitate it under God’s direction.

Actually Jesus is called the Creator (Col 1.16). What the Father did through the Son created a world for the Son and with the capacity of redemption now exercised by the Son.

Doing this "through the Son" marked the act of creation a co-production making both Father and Son in a sense collaborators in creating the world. And yet they represent one infinite God. So one can't really call them creators, plural. They are one Divine Creator operating with the same means and the same potential resulting in a world designed for the Son and with the capacity for redemption, should Man fall.

Technically, Christians do not equate the Son and the Father by calling the Son "the Father." That is modalism. Rather, we would equate the Son and the Father by saying that they enjoy a common Deity and share the same Divine Substance. The Son introduced the Father's capacity to express His Personhood within creation as a man so that he could inherit the universe. And so, the Son introduced something novel in the Divine revelation, showing the Divine Personality in a new setting.

The point is that as the Son he can relate to the Father, even though both are expressions of the same God. This is obviously ludicrous on a human plane, among mere men, but completely reasonable on a Divine plane.

I should add about the distinction between the Father and the Son that this can be conceived of in terms of the relationship between a symbol and the thing that is symbolized. For example, shorthand expresses what is meant in longhand. A line segment represents an infinite line by presenting a portion of it as a symbol of the entire line. The man Christ expresses the infinite God.

These things are not incomprehensible. It's just not something we can do, nor can anyone do other than the infinite Deity Himself. He alone has a verbal instrument, the Divine Word, that can produce an expression of His own personality on a lower finite human plane.
I will never be able to prove this. But the Bible does suggest this.

It would be impossible for us to create an android who is "us." But God was able to do that Christians believe. He created a human body to express His own Personality in a human personality.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Randy Kluth .....I just wanted to address the scriptural reference you gave in Isaiah 4:9, to offer a background to what it is saying.....read in context, this verse is not saying what you implied at all.

More than 100 years before Babylon’s rise as the world power of the day, Isaiah foretold how the world the would react to her fall. Imagine! 100 years before Babylon even became the ruthless world power that it was, Jehovah knew what her end would mean to those oppressed by her....including his own people.

Prophetically, Jehovah commands the Israelites who have been freed from captivity there:

“It shall come to pass in the day the Lord gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear and the hard bondage in which you were made to serve, that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say:
“How the oppressor has ceased, The golden city ceased! The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked, The scepter of the rulers; He who struck the people in wrath with a continual stroke, He who ruled the nations in anger, Is persecuted and no one hinders. The whole earth is at rest and quiet; They break forth into singing. Indeed the cypress trees rejoice over you, And the cedars of Lebanon, Saying, ‘Since you were cut down, No woodsman has come up against us.’ “Hell [sheol] from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations. They all shall speak and say to you: ‘Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us? Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.’” (Isaiah 14:3-11 NKJV)

In the Jewish Tanakh, “Sheol” is translated as “the grave”. Those in Sheol are dead and buried. They are not conscious. (Eccl 9:5, 10) This “proverb” is speaking about an entire world power going down into its symbolic grave.

It seems fitting that the fall of such an evil world power should be celebrated with such a “proverb”.

Beginning with Nebuchadnezzar and ending with Nabonidus and Belshazzar, this mighty empire enjoyed their time of wealth and glory and conquest. What a difference her end will mean for those she oppressed.

Her demise is sarcastically referred to with mention of all the great kings who had gone before her, rising up to greet her as her symbolic grave awaits her. Those impotent in death, greeting her with derision, saying...

“Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us? Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.’”

What a powerful image this portrays! It is as if the common grave of mankind were to wake up all the kings of previous world powers who preceded the Babylonian dynasty into death, so that they can greet the newcomer. They mock the Babylonian ruling power, which is now helpless, lying on a bed of maggots instead of on a royal divan, covered with worms instead of expensive linens.

This is the time before Israel adopted the false teaching of an immortal soul from the Greeks.....so it cannot be taken literally. They had no belief in life after death except by resurrection. There is no direct mention of an immortal soul in the Hebrew Scriptures at all.....and these were the scriptures that Jesus and his apostles quoted from.

Unless you provide context, the true meaning of these verses will escape the modern day reader because so much has been corrupted by the church system. Assumptions are not facts and truth is not what one wants to believe by citing verses that appear to support an argument.....but which in context will show us the true meaning as it is taken in the entirety of what the Bible teaches....

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I love raw steak. It has to be bloody. Perhaps I'm a vampire then? LOL, well I'm not a JW. But I like raw steak on the fatty side. Like ribeye!

I drink Cola, it's no good for me they say, but after eating fatty food I like to drink cola after wards.

 

[Randy Kluth]

@Randy Kluth .....I just wanted to address the scriptural reference you gave in Isaiah 4:9, to offer a background to what it is saying.....read in context, this verse is not saying what you implied at all.

More than 100 years before Babylon’s rise as the world power of the day, Isaiah foretold how the world the would react to her fall. Imagine! 100 years before Babylon even became the ruthless world power that it was, Jehovah knew what her end would mean to those oppressed by her....including his own people.

Prophetically, Jehovah commands the Israelites who have been freed from captivity there:

“It shall come to pass in the day the Lord gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear and the hard bondage in which you were made to serve, that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say:
“How the oppressor has ceased, The golden city ceased! The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked, The scepter of the rulers; He who struck the people in wrath with a continual stroke, He who ruled the nations in anger, Is persecuted and no one hinders. The whole earth is at rest and quiet; They break forth into singing. Indeed the cypress trees rejoice over you, And the cedars of Lebanon, Saying, ‘Since you were cut down, No woodsman has come up against us.’ “Hell [sheol] from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations. They all shall speak and say to you: ‘Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us? Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.’” (Isaiah 14:3-11 NKJV)

In the Jewish Tanakh, “Sheol” is translated as “the grave”. Those in Sheol are dead and buried. They are not conscious. (Eccl 9:5, 10) This “proverb” is speaking about an entire world power going down into its symbolic grave.

The words used indicate the dead are conscious. You are denying what is being said. What should I believe--you or what the Scriptures say?

Isa 14.9 The realm of the dead below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.
10 They will all respond,
they will say to you,
“You also have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us.”
11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.

It seems fitting that the fall of such an evil world power should be celebrated with such a “proverb”.

What proverb?

What a powerful image this portrays! It is as if the common grave of mankind were to wake up all the kings of previous world powers who preceded the Babylonian dynasty into death, so that they can greet the newcomer. They mock the Babylonian ruling power, which is now helpless, lying on a bed of maggots instead of on a royal divan, covered with worms instead of expensive linens.

So you want to believe this passage of Scripture is a "proverb," conveying an idea, conjuring up "an image," to make it "as if" the dead are conscious and alive, because you say they can't be alive? They're dead!

Well yes, they're dead. Sheol is indeed the place of the dead. But Sheol is given a name other than the ground precisely because it is a location of departed spirits. Otherwise, it wouldn't be called "Sheol." It would just be said they're dead and gone--they're in the ground.

But no, we're told that Sheol holds the departed spirits who recognize judgments have taken place when people arrive there. They are conscious, the Bible says. Nothing in the Scripture says this is "as if" the dead are alive and conscious. Only *you* are saying that. I would think that if God wanted to dispel the idea this was literal He would have said so? But He didn't!

Sorry, you lack any real basis to claim this is just a lesson or a proverb. Without the Bible saying so, and without the context demanding this, we should just accept it. Your argument is circular. You say, the dead can't be alive. Therefore these people in Hades can't really be alive and conscious. But you have no proof that the dead are not alive and conscious!

This is the time before Israel adopted the false teaching of an immortal soul from the Greeks.....so it cannot be taken literally. They had no belief in life after death except by resurrection. There is no direct mention of an immortal soul in the Hebrew Scriptures at all.....and these were the scriptures that Jesus and his apostles quoted from.

Again, you just assert that the Jews got the immortal soul idea from the Greeks. But the Jews had in their own body of sacred literature evidence that they believed the soul existed after death, that they believed death would be conquered, that the dead would live again. You just assert it isn't true as if your word is divine. Sorry, can't buy that! You'll need more proof than just you.

Unless you provide context, the true meaning of these verses will escape the modern day reader because so much has been corrupted by the church system. Assumptions are not facts and truth is not what one wants to believe by citing verses that appear to support an argument.....but which in context will show us the true meaning as it is taken in the entirety of what the Bible teaches....

We both believe in context. But you're imposing your own context upon this passage. Accept that the Bible itself claims the dead have a place they dwell in, and are alive and conscious. These aren't my words. They are the words of Scripture.

 

[Wrangler]

Similar here ... JW were the only ones that it was a downright negative experience all around. And i tried really really hard to find good ... The mountain of evidence forced me to conclude otherwise.

Agreed. This thread is misguided. It is not doctrinal differences, per se. Rather JW is a graceless group, which is why you sense the negativity all around. I would not go so far as to say they are demonic as @Stan B has but maybe in a binary world that is the more accurate assessment.

Lacking grace, their doctrine is works based where knowledge is their IDOL. The lesson of Original Sin is lost of them; we are not saved by KNOWLEDGE but grace.

And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 1 Corinthians 13:2

Consequently, they morph into cult control over their members. @Aunty Jane rejects the work of the Holy Spirit today, castigating you and I and others for following his promptings in our life. Contradicting Scripture, JW demand we rely on our (their) understanding. This is shown in @Aunty Jane's propensity to write >12 paragraph posts. Observe posts #50 and #51. 8 paragraphs followed by 10 paragraphs posted 1 minute apart. That's a lot of work by which she implies she is saved.

Their IDOL causes them to commit the unforgivable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. JW members are victims of this sad cult. Negative indeed.

 

[Wrangler]

Isa 14.9 The realm of the dead below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.
10 They will all respond,
they will say to you

So you want to believe this passage of Scripture is a "proverb," conveying an idea, conjuring up "an image," to make it "as if" the dead are conscious and alive, because you say they can't be alive? They're dead!

Well yes, they're dead. Sheol is indeed the place of the dead. But Sheol is given a name other than the ground precisely because it is a location of departed spirits. Otherwise, it wouldn't be called "Sheol." It would just be said they're dead and gone--they're in the ground.

But no, we're told that Sheol holds the departed spirits who recognize judgments have taken place when people arrive there. They are conscious, the Bible says. Nothing in the Scripture says this is "as if" the dead are alive and conscious. Only *you* are saying that. I would think that if God wanted to dispel the idea this was literal He would have said so? But He didn't!

Sorry, you lack any real basis to claim this is just a lesson or a proverb. Without the Bible saying so, and without the context demanding this, we should just accept it. Your argument is circular. You say, the dead can't be alive. Therefore these people in Hades can't really be alive and conscious. But you have no proof that the dead are not alive and conscious!

Great analysis.