What are the main doctrinal differences between Jehovah's Witnesses and mainstream Christianity?

[Aunty Jane]

Jane, I don't think our "discussion" is producing anything worth pursuing further--it's more an exercise in judgmentalism than a discussion of the Bible.

Unless we make judgments about our beliefs and what we accept as truth, how will we ever come to evaluate what we hear and read?
I make no personal judgments about anyone....but I do stress what the Bible teaches....."if the cap fits"....someone will wear it.

We would both agree that Christians should not join the pagan world in sinful practices. But we disagree on what exactly "sin" is in the way of practices that once belonged to the "Christian State."

What "Christian state" would that be? There is no such thing in the scriptures. The good news of God's Kingdom was to be "preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to ALL the nations" before God brings satan's entire system of things crashing down. (Matthew 24:14)

God tells us plainly what sin is.....it is knowing what God says to do....and NOT doing it....or knowing what God says NOT to do....and doing it anyway. This is what I saw in the church as a young person....it seemed to me that whatever God said to do, the church did the opposite.

As you say, it is our own responsibility before God to decide whether to observe Xmas and Easter, etc. We are each judged by our own Master.

Indeed, but according to him the majority are not going to like what he tells them.

What we should *not* debate is the need to have Christ's love in our hearts, and to witness to pagans God's love. I can't do that by spending time denouncing their "ungodly" Christian practices, even if they aren't really "Christians."

If their religious celebrations are hollow, how far need I go in denouncing them as "hypocrites?" Do you really think that people who observe religious traditions who are not really "Christian" are doing so to worship ancient gods? I don't think so!

Well that is the whole crux of the matter....those who offer Jesus their excuses on judgment day are actually convinced that they have done nothing wrong and everything right.....its a shock to them that they are rejected. Read Matt 7:21-23.....those who are rejected are completely shocked by his words....excuses and justification follow...

 

[Aunty Jane]

Rather silly.

Just because some people celebrate Christmas or Easter in ways you don't approve of-- that God condemns (you say) as spiritually unclean,

Sorry, you must have misunderstood....Christmas and Easter are not mentioned in the Bible for a very good reason....the first Christians never heard of them. They are both renamed pagan events that have no business being celebrated in Christianity at all. Jesus did not command that they be celebrated, "the weeds" did.....against God's commands in the Bible.

don't you do the same thing every time you stroke a key on your keyboard? I mean computers are used for all kinds of evil and some people certainly use them in ways you would not approve-- making them unclean instruments of evil.

Yet here you are.... plucking away. Touch no unclean thing! (not even in small things). You don't see a double-standard in the way you apply your beliefs to others and their practices, but not your own?

Oh dear...are you serious? My computer is hardly an instrument used exclusively by the devil for religious misinformation....the technology can be put to an evil use, but God can also use it for good...as he has shown in our day. It has become an information superhighway where people can gather and become informed about all sorts of things.....it allows us to communicate about spiritual matters even here after all.

I am not touching anything "unclean" unless I personally and knowingly use it for evil.....God knows I never would.

What good can come from celebrating what God told us not to? Can you tell me why there is a need to celebrate these things when God's chosen people never did. All their festivals were commanded by God, and every detail was provided by him so that no personal ideas were ever allowed to creep in and corrupt them. Celebrating birthdays was connected to astrology, so Jesus would not have celebrated his own birthday, nor would any devout Jew. There are no birthdates in recorded scripture. The only "birthday" celebrations mentioned were pagan rulers....and someone lost their life because of them.

Easter has no connection to Christ either.....it was a festival originally held in honor of a pagan fertility goddess named “Eostre.” (pronounced "Easter").....they didn't even change the name of this one, but simply adopted all the customs and called them "Christian".
Her symbols were rabbits and eggs.....please tell me how these things honor Christ in any way....?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Jehovah's Witnesses teaching on Jesus Christ, is that He is the "first-created" by Jehovah

The Holy Bible's Teaching on Jesus Christ, even as found in the New World Translation, published by the Watchtower (Jehovah's Witnesses), is that Jesus Christ is "Mighty God"!

“For a child has been born to usc, A son has been given to us; And the rulership* will rest on his shoulderd. His name will be called Wonderful Counselore, Mighty Godf, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace” (NWT 2013 edition)

There is no doubt as to Who is Child is, as we can see from the references used in the NWT. We have the letter “c”, which refer to Luke 1:15 and 2:11, both on the Birth of Jesus Christ. Then we have “*”, which has in a note, Or “government; princely rule.”. Next, “e”, with references to Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 7:28, 29; 12:42, which are for the First Coming and Ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ. The letter “f”, has references to Psalm 45:3, which is on the use of the Hebrew, “gib·bō·wr” (mighty one), and John 1:18, where the NWT reads, “No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him”.

It is clear from the translation of the Greek in John 1:18, as in John 1:1, that the JW's are using their theological bias in their readings, and has nothing to do with what the Greek text actually says!

In John 1:18, the Greek reads: "θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε μονογενὴς θεὸς". Here we have "θεὸν", which is used for the Father, and is in the accusative case. Then we have "θεὸς", which is used for Jesus Christ, and here it is in the nominative case. In both uses, John does not use the Greek article (τὸν/ὁ). So, WHY, when the SAME word is used for the Father, is is translated as "God", and when used for Jesus Christ, is translated as "god"? Since in BOTH cases the article is not used, then it should be either "god", or "God", in BOTH places!

It is clear from Isaiah 9:6 in the NWT, that the Hebrew “’êl Gibbôr”, used in Prophecy for Jesus Christ, is translated as "Mighty God", and not, "mighty god", or "strong hero", etc. Then, in Isaiah 10:21, we have the exact same Hebrew, “’êl Gibbôr”, which is used for Jehovah, and translated in the NWT as "Mighty God".

The Jews in the Targums in the 1st century AD, translated Isaiah 9:6, as referring to the Coming of the Messiah, as One Who is Mighty God:

“The prophet saith to the house of David, A child has been born to us, a son has been given to us; and he has taken the law upon himself to keep it, and his name has been called from of old (from eternity, Pauli ed), Wonderful counsellor, Mighty God, He who lives for ever, the Anointed one (or, Messiah), in whose days peace shall increase upon us. Great shall be the splendour of them that observe the law, and of them that preserve peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to build it in judgement and in righteousness from henceforth and for ever: by the Memra of the Lord of hosts shall this be wrought” (Targum Jonathan Ben Uziel. J F Stenning; The Targum of Isaiah, p 32. Oxford 1953 ed, also, Rev. C. W. H. Pauli; Targum Jonathan Ben Uziel: The Chaldee Paraphrase on The Prophet Isaiah; pp.30, 31)

 

[MatthewG]

That's a bit naïve, Matthew. The Gospel requires that a person embrace the righteousness of Christ for salvation. It is an acknowledgement that we can't do this ourselves, by our own record--that we need Christ's righteousness as well as his perfect record, in order to be saved.

The Gospel, therefore, requires that we not only believe things about Christ but that we actually embrace him in our heart, choosing to walk by his spirituality rather than by our own judgments alone. We walk in partnership with him--that's the Gospel.

1 John 2.3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

It is not enough to just believe things about Jesus' life--what he did and in his forgiveness. We must "live as Jesus did."

Yes it sure does.

I don’t disagree with that.

It doesn’t make my last statement naive.

Most religious institutions stand on the death, burial, and resurrection.

There is just additional information that tends to be added on to, and that is where really seeking truth comes in to help.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes it sure does.

I don’t disagree with that.

It doesn’t make my last statement naive.

Thank you, but your statement was naïve not because religious doctrine is untrue, but because you infer that it is sufficient in the context of JW religion. JW religion does *not* embrace Christian orthodoxy. So I was pointing out that without genuine orthodoxy, genuine Christian practice is impossible.

Yes, JWs can do good works, though in an inadequate way, through the Spirit of God who makes the righteousness of God available to all. But His righteousness is tainted among those who do not fully commit to the divine Christ.

They are not "born again," and thus only "cleanse the outside of the cup," and not the "inside." They sew a "new patch" on "old wineskins." They are really living autonomous lives, independent of the Lord, and only do good now and again, when they are comfortable with it. Unless one fully commits to Christ, he is living in his "old man," and not producing works indicative of Salvation.

This is not Christian living, and it does not convey that a new nature has been implanted in the individual. Showing a few good works is not showing a new nature has been implanted. And thus, they are voicing a few doctrines, while challenging others. As a result they do not convey that they are "born again," and do not display the overcoming spiritual life, which is only available in the acceptance of Christ as Divine Savior.

I'm not wishing to be "judgmental" towards JWs in saying this--just telling the truth in the hope that they will repent of their carnal, legalistic works and obey Christ. Unless they see Christ as divine, they will not obey him.

The works conjured by the JW here is obviously legalism. It requires anti-rituals, as opposed to Christian rituals, designed to attack Christian tradition and replace it with anti-traditional JW-ism. The spirit of attack is suggestive of carnal works, representing such things as envy, jealousy, and hate, as well as divisiveness, argumentativeness, etc. These things come from the carnal man, and do not suggest a conversion to Christian spirituality. That only happens when a person fully submits to Christ.

Doing a few good works is insufficient, though doing *any* good works is a good thing. This JW may be a nice person in some ways, but only displaying a new nature in Christ will get her Salvation, or Eternal Life. That is the goal of my criticism, to see her obtain not just a few good works, nor to get her to abandon anti-traditionalism, but rather, to find in Christ a new nature, a constant spirituality, and eternal life.

 

[MatthewG]

Thank you, but your statement was naïve not because religious doctrine is untrue, but because you infer that it is sufficient in the context of JW religion. JW religion does *not* embrace Christian orthodoxy. So I was pointing out that without genuine orthodoxy, genuine Christian practice is impossible.

Yes, JWs can do good works, though in an inadequate way, through the Spirit of God who makes the righteousness of God available to all. But His righteousness is tainted among those who do not fully commit to the divine Christ.

They are not "born again," and thus only "cleanse the outside of the cup," and not the "inside." They sew a "new patch" on "old wineskins." They are really living autonomous lives, independent of the Lord, and only do good now and again, when they are comfortable with it. Unless one fully commits to Christ, he is living in his "old man," and not producing works indicative of Salvation.

This is not Christian living, and it does not convey that a new nature has been implanted in the individual. Showing a few good works is not showing a new nature has been implanted. And thus, they are voicing a few doctrines, while challenging others. As a result they do not convey that they are "born again," and do not display the overcoming spiritual life, which is only available in the acceptance of Christ as Divine Savior.

I'm not wishing to be "judgmental" towards JWs in saying this--just telling the truth in the hope that they will repent of their carnal, legalistic works and obey Christ. Unless they see Christ as divine, they will not obey him.

The works conjured by the JW here is obviously legalism. It requires anti-rituals, as opposed to Christian rituals, designed to attack Christian tradition and replace it with anti-traditional JW-ism. The spirit of attack is suggestive of carnal works, representing such things as envy, jealousy, and hate, as well as divisiveness, argumentativeness, etc. These things come from the carnal man, and do not suggest a conversion to Christian spirituality. That only happens when a person fully submits to Christ.

Doing a few good works is insufficient, though doing *any* good works is a good thing. This JW may be a nice person in some ways, but only displaying a new nature in Christ will get her Salvation, or Eternal Life. That is the goal of my criticism, to see her obtain not just a few good works, nor to get her to abandon anti-traditionalism, but rather, to find in Christ a new nature, a constant spirituality, and eternal life.

Well you also can’t judge the heart. The only other thing is the fruits that one shows.

Idk who puts their faith in their own work or Jesus.

If they say Jesus what can you say?

I can’t judge.

 

[Wrangler]

The Holy Bible's Teaching on Jesus Christ, even as found in the New World Translation, published by the Watchtower (Jehovah's Witnesses), is that Jesus Christ is "Mighty God"!

There is no such verse that calls Jesus this, which explains why you did not provide a NT citation.

 

[MatthewG]

@Wrangler

“As the former time made light The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, So the latter hath honoured the way of the sea, Beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations. The people who are walking in darkness Have seen a great light, Dwellers in a land of death-shade, Light hath shone upon them. Thou hast multiplied the nation, Thou hast made great its joy, They have joyed before Thee as the joy in harvest, As [men] rejoice in their apportioning spoil. Because the yoke of its burden, And the staff of its shoulder, the rod of its exactor, Thou hast broken as [in] the day of Midian. For every battle of a warrior [is] with rushing, and raiment rolled in blood, And it hath been for burning — fuel of fire. For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace. To the increase of the princely power, And of peace, there is no end, On the throne of David, and on his kingdom, To establish it, and to support it, In judgment and in righteousness, Henceforth, even unto the age, The zeal of Jehovah of Hosts doth this. A word hath the Lord sent into Jacob, And it hath fallen in Israel.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9‬:‭1‬-‭8‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

Isaiah 9:1-8 As the former time made light The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, So the latter hath honoured the way of the sea, Beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations. The people who are walking in dar | Young's Literal Translation 1898 (

As the former time made light The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, So the latter hath honoured the way of the sea, Beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations. The people who are walking in dar

bible.com

Not sure who you may believe sits on the throne. I believe it’s God in the fullness of Christ Jesus.

“After these things I saw, and lo, a door opened in the heaven, and the first voice that I heard [is] as of a trumpet speaking with me, saying, ‘Come up hither, and I will shew thee what it behoveth to come to pass after these things;’ and immediately I was in the Spirit, and lo, a throne was set in the heaven, and upon the throne is [one] sitting, and He who is sitting was in sight like a stone, jasper and sardine: and a rainbow was round the throne in sight like an emerald. And around the throne [are] thrones twenty and four, and upon the thrones I saw the twenty and four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and they had upon their heads crowns of gold; and out of the throne proceed do lightnings, and thunders, and voices; and seven lamps of fire are burning before the throne, which are the Seven Spirits of God, and before the throne [is] a sea of glass like to crystal, and in the midst of the throne, and round the throne, [are] four living creatures, full of eyes before and behind; and the first living creature [is] like a lion, and the second living creature [is] like a calf, and the third living creature hath the face as a man, and the fourth living creature [is] like an eagle flying. And the four living creatures, each by itself severally, had six wings, around and within [are] full of eyes, and rest they have not day and night, saying, ‘Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is coming;’ and when the living creatures do give glory, and honour, and thanks, to Him who is sitting upon the throne, who is living to the ages of the ages, fall down do the twenty and four elders before Him who is sitting upon the throne, and bow before Him who is living to the ages of the ages, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying, ‘Worthy art Thou, O Lord, to receive the glory, and the honour, and the power, because Thou — Thou didst create the all things, and because of Thy will are they, and they were created.’”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4‬:‭1‬-‭11‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

Revelation 4:1-11 After these things I saw, and lo, a door opened in the heaven, and the first voice that I heard [is] as of a trumpet speaking with me, saying, ‘Come up hither, and I will shew thee what it behoveth to | Young's Literal Translation 1

After these things I saw, and lo, a door opened in the heaven, and the first voice that I heard [is] as of a trumpet speaking with me, saying, ‘Come up hither, and I will shew thee what it behoveth to

bible.com

The reason why I believe this is because of what Paul said,

“then — the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power — for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet — the last enemy is done away — death; for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him, and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭24‬-‭28‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 then — the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power — for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all th | Young's Literal Translat

then — the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power — for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all th

bible.com

 

[Wrangler]

Not sure who you may believe sits on the throne

Well, there are 2 questions here. Whose throne is it? God's. Who is sitting on God's throne? Another Being, aka, his son. This is analogous to you driving my car. Even if you drive my car for a long time, it remains my car.

Rather than rely on this backdoor logic, there is abundant explicit Scripture on this making it unnecessary to rely on an implication that if you drive my car it becomes your car. Just yesterday I came across Deut 4:39: YHWH is God in heaven and Earth below - there is no other. Another verse says the name of God to be known for all generations is ... wait for it ... not Jesus ... but YHWH. Deut 4:45 says YHWH is God. There is no other God besides him (singular). Not sure how many times it needs to be written by God to grasp monotheism. So, there is that.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well you also can’t judge the heart. The only other thing is the fruits that one shows.

Idk who puts their faith in their own work or Jesus.

If they say Jesus what can you say?

I can’t judge.

Don't get me wrong--I'm not judging anybody's eternal destiny. But we are *supposed* to judge to see who is really in the Christian camp, and who is not. What do you think Paul, Peter, James, and John all wrote their letters for if not to enable Christians to discern between the genuine and the fake? Did you even realize that Scriptures did this?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

There is no such verse that calls Jesus this, which explains why you did not provide a NT citation.

did you read #103?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Sorry, I just can’t let any of that go unchallenged......what a load of completely twisted misinformation, typical of those who judge by hearsay and not facts. Go to the source....it’s a whole different response.

Thank you, but your statement was naïve not because religious doctrine is untrue, but because you infer that it is sufficient in the context of JW religion. JW religion does *not* embrace Christian orthodoxy. So I was pointing out that without genuine orthodoxy, genuine Christian practice is impossible.

Who invented “orthodox Christianity”? Not Jesus or his apostles.....it was the so-called early “church fathers” and those who added to their gradual inclusions who formulated what was to become “orthodox Christianity” in later centuries...... Christendom is the end product of that influence so that we have today something that is not even remotely close to what Christ began.
Jesus himself told us what would happen.....read Matthew 13:24-30, 31:42...the devil would corrupt Christianity in the same way that he corrupted Judaism.

It had happened before because the devil has no new tricks. Just as satan introduced pagan concepts into the Jewish faith and led Israel many times into false worship, he did it again with the "clergy" who took the lead in the early church by influencing them to do what Israel’s leaders had done before them.

Yes, JWs can do good works, though in an inadequate way, through the Spirit of God who makes the righteousness of God available to all. But His righteousness is tainted among those who do not fully commit to the divine Christ.

They are not "born again," and thus only "cleanse the outside of the cup," and not the "inside." They sew a "new patch" on "old wineskins." They are really living autonomous lives, independent of the Lord, and only do good now and again, when they are comfortable with it. Unless one fully commits to Christ, he is living in his "old man," and not producing works indicative of Salvation.

Again...what a load of ill informed garbage.
I do not believe that Christendom’s churches have the vaguest idea of what being “born again” even means.
Since they assume that everyone must be “born again” to be a Christian, the Bible itself bursts that bubble.

There are clearly two groups of “Christians” in the Bible....those who are "called to be saints” and those who are Christians who are not of that “calling”.
Paul spoke of them....
“To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (NKJV)

Why would Paul speak of those with the “heavenly calling” if all naturally receive this “calling”? (Hebrews 3:1)
Only Christ’s elect are “saints”.....these are the ones chosen by God to rule with his son in the heavenly kingdom. What is their role in heaven? Jesus tells us in Revelation 20:6...

“Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (NKJV)

So the elect will be “priests of God and of Christ” and kings who will “reign with” Jesus for “a thousand years”. These have a part in “the first resurrection”....what does that mean?
Again, Paul explains....1 Thess 4:13-16....

“But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.” (NKJV)

Those who “sleep” in death from the first century onward, will rise at the same time as those who lived at the time of Jesus’ “presence” in these last days......no one was to go to heaven until the second coming, when Jesus would call them from their graves “first” before the other Christians who do not have the “heavenly calling” are resurrected by Christ in what we call “the general resurrection of the dead”. (John 5:28-29)

There are two groups of Christians who are saved, and two separate resurrections to two different destinations. The “first resurrection” is first in time and importance as it means that the heavenly Kingdom is ready to serve the rest of humanity who take part in the general resurrection of the dead once the earth is cleansed of all wickedness.
Again in the Revelation, John saw two groups...one numbered and one not numbered....

“And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: . . . . .After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
All are attributing salvation to God and the Lamb, who died for them. But they are two groups of Christians.

“Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” (Revelation 7:4, 9, 10, 13, 14 NKJV)
All are Christ’s disciples who already know their place in God’s arrangement. The elect have the token of their sealing when they are first anointed with God’s spirit. They know that a resurrection to heaven awaits them and that being “born again” means a new birth in a new body, to rule with Christ in his kingdom.

The second group will be grateful subjects of that Kingdom and will welcome their rulership and priesthood to take them back into reconciliation with their Heavenly Father. (Rev 21:2-4)

Once that is accomplished, then Jesus hands rulership back to its rightful Sovereign......the Creator of all things. (1 Cor 15:24-28)

 

[Aunty Jane]

This is not Christian living, and it does not convey that a new nature has been implanted in the individual. Showing a few good works is not showing a new nature has been implanted. And thus, they are voicing a few doctrines, while challenging others. As a result they do not convey that they are "born again," and do not display the overcoming spiritual life, which is only available in the acceptance of Christ as Divine Savior.

Again, you seem to have no idea of what it means to be a Christian if you think that Christendom is in any way representative of it.
Acceptance of Jesus as the divine savior is exactly what we are to do, but we know that the one who sent him is greater. (John 14:28) This is the one Jesus called “the only true God”. (John 17:3)

I'm not wishing to be "judgmental" towards JWs in saying this--just telling the truth in the hope that they will repent of their carnal, legalistic works and obey Christ. Unless they see Christ as divine, they will not obey him.

Not judgmental at all.....much?......but not telling the truth.
Faith in Christ’s redeeming sacrifice is necessary, but faith alone will not save a single person.
It is Christendom’s lack of works to prove their faith that shows them up to be imposters. Where are they in fulfilling the great commission?
Missing in action as usual.

James ch 2....
“What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? . . . . Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. . . . . But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. . . . . .You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” (NKJV)

The works conjured by the JW here is obviously legalism. It requires anti-rituals, as opposed to Christian rituals, designed to attack Christian tradition and replace it with anti-traditional JW-ism. The spirit of attack is suggestive of carnal works, representing such things as envy, jealousy, and hate, as well as divisiveness, argumentativeness, etc. These things come from the carnal man, and do not suggest a conversion to Christian spirituality. That only happens when a person fully submits to Christ.

Oh please....the Christian faith instituted by Jesus and the apostles was devoid of ritual.....that ended with the Jewish system.....and also, whatever “Christian tradition” was introduced by the early church was man made, not instructed by Christ or the apostles. What did Jesus say about man made traditions?

“Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,And honor Me with lips,But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me,Teaching doctrines the commandments of men.’ ” (Matt 15:7-9 NKJV)

Doing a few good works is insufficient, though doing *any* good works is a good thing. This JW may be a nice person in some ways, but only displaying a new nature in Christ will get her Salvation, or Eternal Life. That is the goal of my criticism, to see her obtain not just a few good works, nor to get her to abandon anti-traditionalism, but rather, to find in Christ a new nature, a constant spirituality, and eternal life.

Well how lovely of you to assume to have what I do not.....pot calling the kettle black perhaps...?

There is but one truth and God would love it if all simply subscribed to it.....the devil however has fractured the Christian faith into thousands of unrecognizable fragments, and only those with a thorough knowledge of the scriptures will be able to find the diamond in that pile of broken glass. The real Christians are not shut up in a building hoping that someone may wander in....they are out actively searching for the "lost sheep" (Matt 10:11-14)......and they are finding them, and bringing them into Christ's family of faithful ones who have not forgotten what it means to be a genuine follower of Jesus Christ. (Matt 24:14; Matt 28:19-20)

 

[Aunty Jane]

did you read #103?

Yes...have you studied it carefully?
Isaiah 9:6-7 does not say what you think it does....analyze what it says from a Jewish perspective.....it was written by a Jew for Jews.

Messiah was to be a superlative "Counselor", and he was, no doubt about that.....his wise words are recorded for us all to read in God's word.

He was described as a "mighty god", but in Jewish understanding.....he is not ever called “God Almighty” (’El Shad·daiʹ) but El Gib·bohrʹ "mighty god", and this is in keeping with the true definition of the word "theos" (god) in Greek. (this word does not only pertain to Jehovah, but also to those who represent him with his divine authority. John 10:31-36)
Jehovah himself called his appointed judges in Israel "gods" because they represented him. Messiah was never called "Almighty God"....in the whole Bible, that designation only applies to the Father.
To the Jews, calling anyone but the Father "Almighty God" would have been blasphemy.

How is Jesus an "everlasting father"?

The word in Hebrew means....

• father of an individual
• of God as father of his people
• head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan
• ancestor (Strongs)

A father is also a "life giver".....Jesus wasn't ever anyone's father....he was the son of his Father....but he was a life giver and the head of the Christian "household". His disciples were called his "brothers", never his "sons".

And as for the "Prince of Peace".....what is a Prince? He is the son of a King.

That prophesy does not say what those in Christendom want it to say.....

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Yes...have you studied it carefully?
Isaiah 9:6-7 does not say what you think it does....analyze what it says from a Jewish perspective.....it was written by a Jew for Jews.

Messiah was to be a superlative "Counselor", and he was, no doubt about that.....his wise words are recorded for us all to read in God's word.

He was described as a "mighty god", but in Jewish understanding.....he is not ever called “God Almighty” (’El Shad·daiʹ) but El Gib·bohrʹ "mighty god", and this is in keeping with the true definition of the word "theos" (god) in Greek. (this word does not only pertain to Jehovah, but also to those who represent him with his divine authority. John 10:31-36)
Jehovah himself called his appointed judges in Israel "gods" because they represented him. Messiah was never called "Almighty God"....in the whole Bible, that designation only applies to the Father.
To the Jews, calling anyone but the Father "Almighty God" would have been blasphemy.

How is Jesus an "everlasting father"?

The word in Hebrew means....

• father of an individual
• of God as father of his people
• head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan
• ancestor (Strongs)

A father is also a "life giver".....Jesus wasn't ever anyone's father....he was the son of his Father....but he was a life giver and the head of the Christian "household". His disciples were called his "brothers", never his "sons".

And as for the "Prince of Peace".....what is a Prince? He is the son of a King.

That prophesy does not say what those in Christendom want it to say.....

the first century AD, Rabbi Yose HaGelili, said of this passage:

“Thus rabbi Jose, of Galilee, says, ‘The name of the Messiah is shâlôm, as is said in Isa 9:6, “Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.” ‘Ben Sira (fol. 40, of the Amsterdam Edition, 1679) numbers among the eight names of the Messiah those also taken from this passage, Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Prince of Peace. The later Jews, however, have rejected this interpretation, because the Messiah is here described as God” (Albert Barnes Commentary)

About the same time we have the Jewish Targum of Jonathan Ben Uziel the disciple of Hillel (110 BC-10AD; Bab. Meg. 32):

“The prophet saith to the house of David, A child has been born to us, a son has been given to us; and he has taken the law upon himself to keep it, and his name has been called from of old (from eternity, Pauli ed), Wonderful counsellor, Mighty God, He who lives for ever, the Anointed one (or, Messiah), in whose days peace shall increase upon us. Great shall be the splendour of them that observe the law, and of them that preserve peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to build it in judgement and in righteousness from henceforth and for ever: by the Memra of the Lord of hosts shall this be wrought” (Targum Jonathan Ben Uziel. J F Stenning; The Targum of Isaiah, p 32. Oxford 1953 ed, also, Rev. C. W. H. Pauli; Targum Jonathan Ben Uziel: The Chaldee Paraphrase on The Prophet Isaiah; pp.30, 31)

The Jews of the 1st century, clearly understood the words to refer to The Messiah!

The Hebrew, “אב”, is a very broad word, which does not always have the meaning of “father”. In “the Sumerian language…a later a-a, ‘father’ = ‘begetter’…a-a-kalam-ma, ‘father of the land’, i.e., begetter and creator of the world…Like the other Semitic languages…abu... ‘father’…is used as a synonym for banu, ‘begetter’…In Hebrew ‘abh sometimes means the founder…protector” (Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament, Vol. I, under ‘abh). “Of the author, or maker of anything, specially of the Creator” (Gesenius Hebrew lexicon). “originator, producer, generator, protector, ruler” (Brown, Driver, Briggs, Hebrew lexicon)

Likewise, in the Greek, πατὴρ, also has the meanings, “author” (Liddell & Scott, Greek lexicon). “founder…as the originator and ruler” (W. Arndt & F. Gingrich Greek lexicon). “the originator, protector, creator” (Thayer Greek lexicon).

In neither the Hebrew of Greek, do the terms need to be understood as “father”, and certainly not as God the Father. We can understand the words to mean “originator, begetter, author”, which is true of God the Father, and Jesus Christ.

“אֵל גִּבּוֹר”, is used for Jesus Christ in 9:6, and translated as "Mighty God"; and for Jehovah (the Father) in 10:21, with the SAME meaning! Two distinct Persons Who are MIGHTY GOD!

In Revelation 5:13, we read of Jesus Christ AND the Father, "I heard every created thing which is in heaven, on the earth, under the earth, on the sea, and everything in them, saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, AND to the Lamb be the Blessing, the Honor, the Glory, and the Might, forever and ever! Amen!”. The Greek, "τὸ κράτος", THE MIGHT, means ALMIGHTY, ALL of the MIGHT that the Father has, Jesus Christ also has! The same is with THE BLESSING, THE HONOR, THE GLORY. Where the use of "καί", AND, means that Jesus Christ is EQUAL with the Father, and due the SAME, "THE BLESSING, THE HONOR, THE GLORY, THE MIGHT", as the Father. ONLY as ALMIGHTY GOD, and YHWH, can this be true of Jesus Christ!

 

[Wrangler]

Not sure who you may believe sits on the throne.

An intelligent mind can rationalize anything.

Is Matthew 28:18 also misunderstood and misused?​

Is John 17:2-3 also misunderstood and misused?​

And John 20:17?​

Is Romans 10:9 also misunderstood and misused?​

Is Revelation 1:1 also misunderstood and misused?​

How about Rev 3:12?​

Yahweh is God. There is no other God besides him (singular)
Deut 4:35 (emphasis added)

Typical trinitarian debate tactic. I provide 7 verses supporting a conclusion. You sweep them all off the table of discussion and prop up only your own verse for consideration.

If you only look at evidence in support of a proposition, you'll never consider the strength of the argument AGAINST the proposition.

No matter who drives my car, it remains my car. If 5 people drive my car, it does not make any of them me.

 

[Wrangler]

There is no such verse that calls Jesus this, which explains why you did not provide a NT citation.

did you read #103?

Yes. My statement stands. @Aunty Jane's post #115 does a good job detailing the illogical claim you make. Again, there is no verse that even claims Jesus is God. It's a simple statement and it is not made because of a very good reason; that is not what the Biblical authors thought.

Regarding imposing this notion onto Jesus. Well, read exegesis.

 

[MatthewG]

Typical trinitarian debate tactic. I provide 7 verses supporting a conclusion. You sweep them all off the table of discussion and prop up only your own verse for consideration.

If you only look at evidence in support of a proposition, you'll never consider the strength of the argument AGAINST the proposition.

No matter who drives my car, it remains my car. If 5 people drive my car, it does not make any of them me.

Hey man, I was not debating anything about Trinitarian.

I was asking a question, but you ignored it. It don’t matter to me. What the heck you believe.

Will love you, regardless, but pay attention don’t get caught up in pride.

If you would like to answer what it is, you believe to the question that I asked with the presented content, included then please feel free to answer me, but if you dare go on a Trinitarian raid, then please refrain from even answering.


I’m done playing stupid blame games and finger pointing bs.

“As the former time made light The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, So the latter hath honoured the way of the sea, Beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations. The people who are walking in darkness Have seen a great light, Dwellers in a land of death-shade, Light hath shone upon them. Thou hast multiplied the nation, Thou hast made great its joy, They have joyed before Thee as the joy in harvest, As [men] rejoice in their apportioning spoil. Because the yoke of its burden, And the staff of its shoulder, the rod of its exactor, Thou hast broken as [in] the day of Midian. For every battle of a warrior [is] with rushing, and raiment rolled in blood, And it hath been for burning — fuel of fire. For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace. To the increase of the princely power, And of peace, there is no end, On the throne of David, and on his kingdom, To establish it, and to support it, In judgment and in righteousness, Henceforth, even unto the age, The zeal of Jehovah of Hosts doth this. A word hath the Lord sent into Jacob, And it hath fallen in Israel.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9‬:‭1‬-‭8‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

Isaiah 9:1-8 As the former time made light The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, So the latter hath honoured the way of the sea, Beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations. The people who are walking in dar | Young's Literal Translation 1898 (

As the former time made light The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, So the latter hath honoured the way of the sea, Beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations. The people who are walking in dar

bible.com

Not sure who you may believe sits on the throne. I believe it’s God in the fullness of Christ Jesus.

“After these things I saw, and lo, a door opened in the heaven, and the first voice that I heard [is] as of a trumpet speaking with me, saying, ‘Come up hither, and I will shew thee what it behoveth to come to pass after these things;’ and immediately I was in the Spirit, and lo, a throne was set in the heaven, and upon the throne is [one] sitting, and He who is sitting was in sight like a stone, jasper and sardine: and a rainbow was round the throne in sight like an emerald. And around the throne [are] thrones twenty and four, and upon the thrones I saw the twenty and four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and they had upon their heads crowns of gold; and out of the throne proceed do lightnings, and thunders, and voices; and seven lamps of fire are burning before the throne, which are the Seven Spirits of God, and before the throne [is] a sea of glass like to crystal, and in the midst of the throne, and round the throne, [are] four living creatures, full of eyes before and behind; and the first living creature [is] like a lion, and the second living creature [is] like a calf, and the third living creature hath the face as a man, and the fourth living creature [is] like an eagle flying. And the four living creatures, each by itself severally, had six wings, around and within [are] full of eyes, and rest they have not day and night, saying, ‘Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is coming;’ and when the living creatures do give glory, and honour, and thanks, to Him who is sitting upon the throne, who is living to the ages of the ages, fall down do the twenty and four elders before Him who is sitting upon the throne, and bow before Him who is living to the ages of the ages, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying, ‘Worthy art Thou, O Lord, to receive the glory, and the honour, and the power, because Thou — Thou didst create the all things, and because of Thy will are they, and they were created.’”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4‬:‭1‬-‭11‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

Revelation 4:1-11 After these things I saw, and lo, a door opened in the heaven, and the first voice that I heard [is] as of a trumpet speaking with me, saying, ‘Come up hither, and I will shew thee what it behoveth to | Young's Literal Translation 1

After these things I saw, and lo, a door opened in the heaven, and the first voice that I heard [is] as of a trumpet speaking with me, saying, ‘Come up hither, and I will shew thee what it behoveth to

bible.com

The reason why I believe this is because of what Paul said,

“then — the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power — for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet — the last enemy is done away — death; for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him, and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭24‬-‭28‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 then — the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power — for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all th | Young's Literal Translat

then — the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power — for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all th

bible.com

None of these scriptures deal with the trinity… which is something I don’t believe in anyway.

 

[MatthewG]

Don't get me wrong--I'm not judging anybody's eternal destiny. But we are *supposed* to judge to see who is really in the Christian camp, and who is not. What do you think Paul, Peter, James, and John all wrote their letters for if not to enable Christians to discern between the genuine and the fake? Did you even realize that Scriptures did this?

All you have to go on is the spirit and the fruits that it exhibit that comes through the flesh of another person which always includes love, sacrificial, love for God and others. Which is sufferably, done by suffering, with Christ, dying to the flesh in the rain by the spirit.

But I see nothing in scripture that says that this is written to Randy and he has the authority to dictate in mandate over peoples lives.

It’s the other way around with dying to ourselves and allow Christ in and through us to follow through by the spirit of Christ and love God and love our neighbors and it’s not to hound people in the mouth with our fist or beat them down with the Bible on their head.


There’s a difference between having someone try to invade you and find out everything you believe and only not to line up with their thinking and they will condemn to hell because you don’t meet up to what they think you need to believe it’s really Fooked: then you have the difference of just simply sharing the information and let the Holy Spirit of God, work on another person, if they were willing to listen in the first place.


There are also people that look at others, and they may not say that they’re going to go to hell but in their mind in the heart, they might and may even find joy in it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

All you have to go on is the spirit and the fruits that it exhibit that comes through the flesh of another person which always includes love, sacrificial, love for God and others. Which is sufferably, done by suffering, with Christ, dying to the flesh in the rain by the spirit.

But I see nothing in scripture that says that this is written to Randy and he has the authority to dictate in mandate over peoples lives.

It’s the other way around with dying to ourselves and allow Christ in and through us to follow through by the spirit of Christ and love God and love our neighbors and it’s not to hound people in the mouth with our fist or beat them down with the Bible on their head.


There’s a difference between having someone try to invade you and find out everything you believe and only not to line up with their thinking and they will condemn to hell because you don’t meet up to what they think you need to believe it’s really Fooked: then you have the difference of just simply sharing the information and let the Holy Spirit of God, work on another person, if they were willing to listen in the first place.


There are also people that look at others, and they may not say that they’re going to go to hell but in their mind in the heart, they might and may even find joy in it.

Don't agree at all. The Scriptures were written to Christians, and yes, even to myself, to warn us about the "wolves" who would try to get in among the sheep and steal them away for destruction. I did not say I was judging the eternal destiny of people in doing this. I said we must discern between those who are genuine Christians and those who are fake.

As I said, some fake Christians can do genuine good works. But this doesn't make those good works "good fruit!" It just means that all men can do good because God wants them to and enables them to.

But doing good works is not good fruit because good fruit comes from abiding in the vine--not just picking fruit off the vine and presenting them as if it is their own. That is "Cain's gift," because by "Abel's gift" one doesn't just pass on somebody else's gift but truly offers up their entire life for Christ's life.

If people wish to display genuine "good fruit" they must accept the divine Christ and abide in him, and so become new creatures in Christ. Then they can produce genuine good fruit.

Otherwise, what you're doing is saying that some can get in by some other door than through the divine Christ. You can't get in the door by just a mere man, nor even by some sort of "Arian" superman.

Only if you approach Jesus as God in the flesh will you obtain both his forgiveness and his gift of the Spirit, along with Eternal Life. That's the Gospel. Anything less than this is corruption and a deception. The Bible warns us of this.