What did Jesus die to save us from?

[Carl Emerson]

Acts 12
21 On an appointed day Herod put on his royal robes, took his seat upon the throne, and delivered an oration to them.
22 And the people were shouting, “The voice of a god, and not of a man!”
23 Immediately an angel of the Lord struck him down, because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and breathed his last.

What is your take on this ???

 

[St. SteVen]

So you don't fellowship ?

I have attended all (most) of my life.
Except for a few years as a young adult.
I love my church.

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[St. SteVen]

Acts 12
21 On an appointed day Herod put on his royal robes, took his seat upon the throne, and delivered an oration to them.
22 And the people were shouting, “The voice of a god, and not of a man!”
23 Immediately an angel of the Lord struck him down, because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and breathed his last.

What is your take on this ???

Certainly an isolated incident.
How did the writer know that the cause of death was an angel of the Lord striking him down?
Or that the cause of death was "because he did not give God the glory"?

Your question seems to foster the idea that if we make one wrong move God will strike us dead.

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[Carl Emerson]

Certainly an isolated incident.
How did the writer know that the cause of death was an angel of the Lord striking him down?
Or that the cause of death was "because he did not give God the glory"?

Your question seems to foster the idea that if we make one wrong move God will strike us dead.

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Steve you have to be joking, surely you know me better than that ?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Your question seems to foster the idea that if we make one wrong move God will strike us dead.

Steve you have to be joking, surely you know me better than that ?

Of course.
My statement is cautionary.
What point are you trying to make about the "wrath of God" with the story of Herod?

You asked for my take. What's yours?

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[Behold]

And the extortion by fear that comes with it. Believe or burn.

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John 3:36

 

[Carl Emerson]

St. SteVen said:
Your question seems to foster the idea that if we make one wrong move God will strike us dead.

Of course.
My statement is cautionary.
What point are you trying to make about the "wrath of God" with the story of Herod?

You asked for my take. What's yours?

[

2 Peter 2:6
if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

 

[St. SteVen]

2 Peter 2:6
if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

To what end? (restoration)

The restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah from "eternal" fire Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Zephaniah 2:9 Therefore, as surely as I live,” declares the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, “surely Moab will become like Sodom, the Ammonites like Gomorrah— a place of weeds and salt pits, a wasteland forever. The remnant of my people will plunder them; the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.” Ezekiel 16:53 “‘However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,

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[Carl Emerson]

To what end? (restoration)

The restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah from "eternal" fire Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Zephaniah 2:9 Therefore, as surely as I live,” declares the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, “surely Moab will become like Sodom, the Ammonites like Gomorrah— a place of weeds and salt pits, a wasteland forever. The remnant of my people will plunder them; the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.” Ezekiel 16:53 “‘However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,

[

After a period of punishment, Peter clearly uses the term extinction.

 

[St. SteVen]

After a period of punishment, Peter clearly uses the term extinction.

Extinction of what?

What is burned up in this passage?

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 NIV
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.
It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—
even though only as one escaping through the flames.

[

 

[Carl Emerson]

Extinction of what?

What is burned up in this passage?

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 NIV
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.
It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—
even though only as one escaping through the flames.

[

That is a reference to the saved. "This foundation " is Christ

 

[St. SteVen]

That is a reference to the saved. "This foundation " is Christ

It explains how the judgement (evaluation) works.
The Day will be for everyone.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 NIV
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.
It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—
even though only as one escaping through the flames.

COMPARE

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts
sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

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[Carl Emerson]

The context of the first passage is clearly the. saved who walk in the Spirit. Read the portion with surrounding verses and understand the audience.

The second passage speaks of judgement to come for all as He will separate the sheep from the goats. There is no scripture indicating the wicked will eventually be restored and saved in fact the very memory of them will be erased.

1. Psalm 9:6
   The enemy came to an end in everlasting ruins; their cities you rooted out; the very memory of them has perished.
   
   
2. Psalm 34:16
   The face of the Lord is against those who do evil, to cut off the memory of them from the earth.
   
   
3. Psalm 109:
   14 May the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the Lord,
   and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out!
   15 Let them be before the Lord continually,
   that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth!
   16 For he did not remember to show kindness,
   but pursued the poor and needy
   and the brokenhearted, to put them to death.
4. Exodus 17:14
   Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write this as a memorial in a book and recite it in the ears of Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven.”
   

 

[St. SteVen]

There is no scripture indicating the wicked will eventually be restored and saved in fact the very memory of them will be erased.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

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[Carl Emerson]

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Context please...

The opportunity for salvation is there but not all appropriate it.

The wicked do not renounce their ways.

Titus 2

11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

This is speaking of the Elect.
==================================


Romans 14:9

For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

This does not support eventual eternal life for all. Being Lord of the dead means He has the authority to judge them and condemn them for failing to repent.
===================

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

This does not indicate the wicked are saved. It just confirms His authority is in all realms.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Context please...

The opportunity for salvation is there but not all appropriate it.

The wicked do not renounce their ways.

Titus 2

11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

This is speaking of the Elect.

Yes. And it tells the Elect right up front, "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people," - vs 11
It doesn't say for SOME people. It says for ALL people. Salvation, not just the opportunity.

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[St. SteVen]

Romans 14:9

For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

This does not support eventual eternal life for all. Being Lord of the dead means He has the authority to judge them and condemn them for failing to repent.

Christ died to condemn humankind?

John 3:17 NIV
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

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[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

This does not indicate the wicked are saved. It just confirms His authority is in all realms.

An acknowledgment of Jesus as Lord is a powerful declaration.
See the definition of "acknowledge" below. Not under duress.
No one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

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[St. SteVen]

Everyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

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[Carl Emerson]

OK you demonstrate you are really steeped in universalism.

There seems little point in raising biblical objections to your theological position.

I rarely play scripture ping pong - folks believe what they want for whatever reason.

I have tried to dialogue because I consider you a friend.

Can we agree to hold our views with a loose hand and He will bring correction in due course.