What Do The Book of Daniel DECEIVERS Present?!?

[CharismaticLady]

@Phoneman777 and @Enoch111

It's been nice to have civil discussions on a debatable topic. I'll talk to you'all tomorrow.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Except that Gabriel specifically said what is cut off are the "Seventy Weeks" which is a block of time, not a person. Later, He says Messiah is cut off, but in this verse, we're dealing with a revelation of time that is used to explain the 2,300 days which confused Daniel.

You said, "Except that Gabriel specifically said what is cut off are the "Seventy Weeks" which is a block of time, not a person." And yet again you have not supplied the passage as proof of what Gabriel said. Please do so. Here is my proof.

Daniel 8:
In the third year of the reign of King Belshazzar a vision appeared to me—to me, Daniel

8 Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. 12 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.


13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”


14 And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”

“Gabriel...“Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be. (the end of the temple)

“And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which was told is true;
Therefore seal up the vision,
For it refers to many days in the future.”

(End of vision, and is sealed).

Note previous vision: third year of the reign of King Belshazzar (sealed)
Note current vision: first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus


2 Chronicles 36:21
to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her Sabbaths. As long as she lay desolate she kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.

Jeremiah 25:1
[ Seventy Years of Desolation ] The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah, in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah (which was the first year of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon),


Daniel 9:
In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the lineage of the Medes, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans— 2 in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, understood by the books the number of the years specified by the word of the Lord through Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

(This is not concerning 2300 days, that vision ended and sealed until the time of the end of the indignation. Then that temple would be destroyed by 164 BC. before Christ. Later Herod would build another temple - the one destroyed in 70 AD.)

Note: Daniel had been praying about the words of Jeremiah about the seventy years, not the 2300 days.

20 Now while I was speaking, praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God, 21 yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering. 22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, “O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you skill to understand. 23 At the beginning of your supplications the command went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the matter, and understand the vision:

24 “Seventy sevens/weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

25 “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

 

[Phoneman777]

You forget, I don't agree with the combination of two prophecies, especially since the first one was sealed.

By "first one" that is "sealed", do you mean vision in chapter 8? Do you realize the purpose of Gabriel's visit was to have Daniel "understand the matter and consider the "MAREH" (a reference to the 2,300 Days which confused him)?

The angel came to explain the "mareh". It was not sealed.

If by "sealed", you are referring to "...to seal up the vision and the prophecy", you are wrong wrong wrong.

This "seal up" means to "GUARANTEE" or to "AFFIRM" by a "seal" of authority, not a tupperware type seal. Both prophecies start at the same time seeing the shorter 490 years is "cut off" from the larger 2,300 years, and the fact that the 70 Weeks would unfold exactly as depicted was the "affirmation" that the entire 2,300 years prophecy would come to pass, as promised.

 

[Phoneman777]

How do you say that when we clearly read "shall MESSIAH -- מָשִׁ֖יחַ (ma·shi·ach) -- be cut off but not for himself?

There is no question that Messiah is the Christ -- Jesus of Nazareth -- in this passage, and He was not crucified because of anything He had done. It is significant that Daniel uses this specific word מָשִׁ֖יחַ since the crucifixion of Christ was hundreds of years into the future. According to Brown-Driver-Briggs Messiah = Messianic prince.

Cool you engines, bro. Of course Messiah is "cut off", meaning killed. Let's not pretend there isn't a mention of BOTH "cut off" references: the one which pertains to a cutting off of a 70 weeks block of time and the other which pertains to the cutting off of Jesus from the land of the living.

 

[Phoneman777]

You are trying to combine Daniel 8 and 9 together and you say Gabriel was involved. Please copy and paste the authority to amputate ??? these two prophecies together.

I can't make it any simpler, so I can only assume you're deliberately refusing to comprehend it. But, as a lover of the brethren, I'll patiently say it again as many times as you need me to:

1. Gabriel, on authority from God, comes in chapter 9 to clear up Daniel's confusion about the 2,300 Days portion of the vision of chapter 8, which is exclusively referred to as the "mareh" in chapter 8.
2. Gabriel comes and tells Daniel, "Understand the matter and consider the "mareh". Daniel was not confused about any of the previous elements of the chapter 8 prophecy, only the last part about the 2,300 Days.
3. In Gabriel's launch into the explanation of the "mareh" - the 2,300 Days portion - the very first vocally, phonetically, guttural sound waves to rise up from his throat and drop from his lips and break the silence of the air is "SEVENTY WEEKS are cut off..." which means the Seventy Weeks revelation is given to explain the 2,300.
4. Gabriel says the Seventy Weeks are "cut off" - from what? - the only other time prophecy from which they can be, which is the 2,300 Days, which has to be larger than the thing being cut from it. Therefore, the two prophecies are established as intrinsically tied by virtue of the one being used to explain the other and the one being cut off from the other, and since the one is specifically stated to begin in what can only be 457 B.C., so also the 2,300 begins at that time, as well.

Answer this for me for another view. What do you think of the little horn out of 10 horns of Daniel 7, vs. the little horn out of the 4 from Daniel 8. Are they the same person? If so who is it. If not who are they.

The ten horns arose out of the fourth beast Rome which followed Greece. These are the ten barbarian tribes which stood after the dust settled of the fallen Rome...and among them arose the PAPACY. This is textbook Historicism which was championed throughout Protestantism before the lies of Jesuit Futurism and Jesuit Preterism took hold of Protestantism.

The Little Horn of Daniel 8 which arose out of the four "winds" - not the Seleucid horn - is Rome, depicted as both PAGAN ROME in its horizontal attack and then transitions into PAPAL ROME when it begins attacking vertically toward heaven. It's not a "person", it's a kingdom. An earthly king is not such unless he has a kingdom.

 

[Phoneman777]

@Phoneman777 and @Enoch111

It's been nice to have civil discussions on a debatable topic. I'll talk to you'all tomorrow.

Isn't it cool that while most people are only interested in waiting on the next stupid Xmen movie , Superbowl, or American Idol endless round of nonsensical garbage, we have been blessed from God with the desire to study into the deep well of Biblical truth? People say, "never talk politics or religion" when these two topics are the only thing which matters to any of us, the one in the here and now, and the other in eternity, right?

 

[Phoneman777]

You said, "Except that Gabriel specifically said what is cut off are the "Seventy Weeks" which is a block of time, not a person." And yet again you have not supplied the passage as proof of what Gabriel said.

The proof you desire I've mentioned several times: it's the verse in Daniel 9:24: "Seventy Weeks are determined..." which word for "determined" in Hebrew is "Chatak" and means literally to "cut off" or "to amputate".

Therefore, Gabriel is saying the 70 Weeks are "cut off" from something. Since the whole reason for Gabriel showing up is to explain the 2,300 Days - and he does so by the revelation of the 70 Weeks - even a blind man can see that from which the 70 Weeks are cut off is the 2,300 Days, two facts that intrinsically tie the two prophecies together and render all other interpretations which separate the two pointless.

 

[CharismaticLady]

By "first one" that is "sealed", do you mean vision in chapter 8? Do you realize the purpose of Gabriel's visit was to have Daniel "understand the matter and consider the "MAREH" (a reference to the 2,300 Days which confused him)?

Gabriel already explained the 2300 day vision in chapter 8.

Gabriel Interprets the Vision
15 Then it happened, when I, Daniel, had seen the vision and was seeking the meaning, that suddenly there stood before me one having the appearance of a man. 16 And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called, and said, “Gabriel, make this man understand the vision.” 17 So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end.”

18 Now, as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me, and stood me upright. 19 And he said, “Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be. 20 The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king. 22 As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.

23 “And in the latter time of their kingdom,
When the transgressors have reached their fullness,
A king shall arise,
Having fierce features,
Who understands sinister schemes.
24 His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power;
He shall destroy fearfully,
And shall prosper and thrive;
He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.

25 “Through his cunning
He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule;
And he shall exalt himself in his heart.
He shall destroy many in their prosperity.
He shall even rise against the Prince of princes;
But he shall be broken without human means.

26 “And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which was told is true;
Therefore seal up the vision,
For it refers to many days in the future.”

27 And I, Daniel, fainted and was sick for days; afterward I arose and went about the king’s business. I was astonished by the vision, but no one understood it.


The second time Gabriel comes is when Daniel had been studying Jeremiah and had a question about the SEVENTY YEARS, not the 2300 days. Daniel 9.

The 2300 day vision was still sealed when the vision of the 70 weeks vision was given. Your assumption that they both start on the same day is erroneous, because the 2300 day vision is not 2300 years, because the specifics of evenings and mornings was given. That means that they would be the same amount of time as the first usage of evenings and mornings - each day of Creation.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I can't make it any simpler, so I can only assume you're deliberately refusing to comprehend it. But, as a lover of the brethren, I'll patiently say it again as many times as you need me to:

1. Gabriel, on authority from God, comes in chapter 9 to clear up Daniel's confusion about the 2,300 Days portion of the vision of chapter 8, which is exclusively referred to as the "mareh" in chapter 8.
2. Gabriel comes and tells Daniel, "Understand the matter and consider the "mareh". Daniel was not confused about any of the previous elements of the chapter 8 prophecy, only the last part about the 2,300 Days.
3. In Gabriel's launch into the explanation of the "mareh" - the 2,300 Days portion - the very first vocally, phonetically, guttural sound waves to rise up from his throat and drop from his lips and break the silence of the air is "SEVENTY WEEKS are cut off..." which means the Seventy Weeks revelation is given to explain the 2,300.
4. Gabriel says the Seventy Weeks are "cut off" - from what? - the only other time prophecy from which they can be, which is the 2,300 Days, which has to be larger than the thing being cut from it. Therefore, the two prophecies are established as intrinsically tied by virtue of the one being used to explain the other and the one being cut off from the other, and since the one is specifically stated to begin in what can only be 457 B.C., so also the 2,300 begins at that time, as well.

Just answered in my previous post.

The ten horns arose out of the fourth beast Rome which followed Greece. These are the ten barbarian tribes which stood after the dust settled of the fallen Rome...and among them arose the PAPACY. This is textbook Historicism which was championed throughout Protestantism before the lies of Jesuit Futurism and Jesuit Preterism took hold of Protestantism.

The Little Horn of Daniel 8 which arose out of the four "winds" - not the Seleucid horn - is Rome, depicted as both PAGAN ROME in its horizontal attack and then transitions into PAPAL ROME when it begins attacking vertically toward heaven. It's not a "person", it's a kingdom. An earthly king is not such unless he has a kingdom.

So you believe the little horn from the 10 horns, and the little horn that comes out of one of the four is the same. I don't believe they are the same.

I tend to believe the same as you about the little horn from the 10 horns, which would coincide to the feet and 10 toes of the very first vision of the statue. Just not the second vision from Daniel 8.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The proof you desire I've mentioned several times: it's the verse in Daniel 9:24: "Seventy Weeks are determined..." which word for "determined" in Hebrew is "Chatak" and means literally to "cut off" or "to amputate".

Therefore, Gabriel is saying the 70 Weeks are "cut off" from something. Since the whole reason for Gabriel showing up is to explain the 2,300 Days - and he does so by the revelation of the 70 Weeks - even a blind man can see that from which the 70 Weeks are cut off is the 2,300 Days, two facts that intrinsically tie the two prophecies together and render all other interpretations which separate the two pointless.

Okay, now I get it. Now I see why you use the word amputate. You believe the 490 weeks are cut out of 2300 years. Only problem is how can you cut out 490 years out of 6.3 years (2300 literal days)?

That's where you didn't discern the correct meaning of "days." If they had not used the clarification of evenings and mornings, then you would be right. But they did, so these are not prophetic days of 230,000 years, or 2300 years from either each day being a thousand years, or one year. In prophecy science, there is a law of first usage. And in this case the first use was Genesis 1 and each evening and morning was a period of just 24 hours long. William Miller did the same thing, but instead of one great disappointment, he created two and died a broken man. He didn't take Israel into account either which these visions of Daniel are tied to, nor was the unverifiable "vision" of the Investigative Judgment in 1844.

But lets get real. The Daniel 8 prophecy has been fulfilled, whether it points to Antiochus Epiphanes IV and the Maccabean Jewish revolt of 167 BC to 160 BC, or the start of an Investigative Judgment, it doesn't change the here and now. The Daniel 7 prophecy is a different matter if it is pointing to the future Antichrist. Even Daniel 9 seems to be fulfilled if the one week of verse 27 was 66 AD to 73 AD. (7 years - the last Jewish revolt)

 

[Bobby Jo]

... (2300 literal days)? ...

Exactly correct. Now find the era, and it ain't ancient. It started in 1985 and ended in 1991.

Bobby Jo

 

[CharismaticLady]

Exactly correct. Now find the era, and it ain't ancient. It started in 1985 and ended in 1991.

Bobby Jo

What did those years have to do with Israel?

 

[Bobby Jo]

What did those years have to do with Israel?

You don't understand. You're trying to fit the 2,300 with ancient history. I'm not here to explain the fulfillment, but rather so simply refute a NON-FULFILLMENT!

Now if I WERE to explain the FULFILLMENT, it wouldn't tickle your ears, so why waste BOTH of our time?!?
Bobby Jo

 

[CharismaticLady]

You don't understand. You're trying to fit the 2,300 with ancient history. I'm not here to explain the fulfillment, but rather so simply refute a NON-FULFILLMENT!

Now if I WERE to explain the FULFILLMENT, it wouldn't tickle your ears, so why waste BOTH of our time?!?
Bobby Jo

Then don't throw out bait if you don't want us to bite.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Then don't throw out bait if you don't want us to bite.

Not "bait". TRUTH.

Perhaps you like soda pop better than milk, and milk better than meat. -- That would be TWO steps removed from what you can chew and digest.

So don't "bite". TRUTH is contrary to your propensity.
Bobby Jo

 

[CharismaticLady]

Not "bait". TRUTH.

Perhaps you like soda pop better than milk, and milk better than meat. -- That would be TWO steps removed from what you can chew and digest.

So don't "bite". TRUTH is contrary to your propensity.
Bobby Jo

I've been nice to you, Bobby Jo, so don't go getting snarky with me.

 

[Bobby Jo]

I've been nice to you, Bobby Jo, so don't go getting snarky with me.

I told you that you like your ears being tickled. And it ain't "snarky", -- it's the TRUTH. If it were otherwise, I'd have helped you arrive to the CORRECT FULFILLMENT.

Whew,
Bobby Jo

 

[CharismaticLady]

I told you that you like your ears being tickled. And it ain't "snarky", -- it's the TRUTH. If it were otherwise, I'd have helped you arrive to the CORRECT FULFILLMENT.

Whew,
Bobby Jo

I really doubt you know anything about this subject, especially anything close to truth. Just a great pretender. Stop acting like a snake in the tree.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Taaaaaaaaaaaaaah, yeah, you're right. You can't even figure out where the starting line is, you jump in anywhere not even knowing the course, and I'm the ignorant one.

Good Call,
Bobby Jo

 

[CharismaticLady]

Taaaaaaaaaaaaaah, yeah, you're right. You can't even figure out where the starting line is, you jump in anywhere not even knowing the course, and I'm the ignorant one.

Good Call,
Bobby Jo

I know I'm right about you. You know nothing about the subject.