What Do The Book of Daniel DECEIVERS Present?!?

[Earburner]

Baseless platitudes are a poor substitute for exegesis. The "Remnant church" spoken of in Revelation 12:17 is clearly identified as those which "keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" which is "the Spirit of Prophecy" according to Revelation 19:10, right?

Does Sunday keeping qualify as keeping the Sabbath holy when the Fourth commandment plainly states Sunday is a W-O-R-K day, the seventh day is the R-E-S-T day, and that God Who alone can declare a thing "holy" has never declared any day such except the seventh day Sabbath, after which He commands it to be kept holy?

Find me just one text in Scripture authorizing the change in the commandment and I'll renounce my affiliation in a heartbeat.

I am not here to entertain or argue the religiosity of the self righteousness of Law Keepers verbatim.
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But, since you did challenge me out right, I shall honor your request for scriptural evidence, that the Law of Moses, the 10C Law, and IT'S form of righteousness is NOT required for anyone's salvation, because it falls terribly short in comparison to The Righteousness of God, which is Christ Jesus.
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KJV- Matthew 5:19-20. Both the Law Keepers and the Law Breakers are "in the" KoG together!

Galatians 5:4 is explained by Rev. 3:16, which is a temporary state of existence, whereby repentance is required immediately before ones death.

 

[Phoneman777]

WRONG, in that it is not in the distant future, but still it was future enough FOR HIM, while He was here in the flesh!!
Did you not read what I have written in the last few pages? Isaiah 55:8-9.
You know (or should know) the acts that were performed by the "types", who were Epiphanes and Maccabeus. So now you must come to grips with Who the "anti-type" is, as to the acts that were done in Him.
Here is your clue: He was desolated (destroyed) and then He was Restored (raised up).

Please read this, as much as you read His words about the AoD:
John 2[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
[20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
[21] But he spake of the temple of his body.

Again, please read Isaiah 55:8-9.

OK, you seem to have forgotten what you said, or maybe I misread, so please correct me if I'm wrong:

1. You originally said in a reply post to another member that you like the application of the AoD to Antiochus, who lived way before Christ.

2. I said since the AoD was still future in Christ's day, both type and anti-type, there's no way it can be applied to him.

3. I also said it applied to 70 A.D. in type and will apply to the global Sunday law in anti-type.

4. You seem to insist that it applies to Antiochus: Please keep in mind Daniel's prophecy has the AoD taking place in verse 27, which follows the order of events which places Messiah's death - which is in verse 26 - happening prior to the AoD, right?

 

[Earburner]

OK, you seem to have forgotten what you said, or maybe I misread, so please correct me if I'm wrong:

1. You originally said in a reply post to another member that you like the application of the AoD to Antiochus, who lived way before Christ.

2. I said since the AoD was still future in Christ's day, both type and anti-type, there's no way it can be applied to him.

3. I also said it applied to 70 A.D. in type and will apply to the global Sunday law in anti-type.

4. You seem to insist that it applies to Antiochus: Please keep in mind Daniel's prophecy has the AoD taking place in verse 27, which follows the order of events which places Messiah's death - which is in verse 26 - happening prior to the AoD, right?

Sorry to say, that you still are misunderstanding what I have said, and also with those I agree to.
So then, here it is point blank, if you can handle it:
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What I am saying is beyond the religiosity of the denominational lines that most all of church-ianity hold to.
Jesus Himself was the "anti-type" to the actions of BOTH Epiphanes and Maccabeus, who were the "types", of which were prophesied of, and DID FULFILL.
Jesus casted that fulfillment as "types" to himself as being THE only "anti-type".
Jesus' body was the temple of God, and was destroyed, but then restored in His Resurrection.
The 70 weeks all ended in Him and by Him.

Do you understand? Can you grasp "God's thoughts and ways" about it, and not the fiction that men make it out to be? Isaiah 55:8-9; John 16:13.

 

[Earburner]

There's NO WAY Antiochus was "exceeding great" above Alex the very great or the greats of M.P.

You are NOT reading that in context, therefore you have gone off on a tangent.

Here is that verse: Daniel 8[9] And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
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Antiochus Epiphanes "waxed" exceeding great...
IOWs, he desired to exceed the greatness of those before his time. It doesn't say he succeeded in achieving his desire in exceeding great.
You do understand the English phrase: to "wax and wane", correct? To increase in intensity, and then decrease in intensity.
AE's internal fortitude increased his desire to the point of "exceeding great".

 

[Bobby Jo]

Bobby you have been crying wolf ...

Well, if you're not man enough to dispute my claims, then maybe I'm right. And maybe you're ignorant.

Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

... Here's how it works. ...

Phhhhhhhhhhahahaha

If "ignorance" were the size of a pea, you'd be the planet earth.

Bobby Jo

 

[CharismaticLady]

No need to grope in darkness when the light is on. Here's some light:

The issue is whether the "THEM" in "out of one of THEM came forth a Little Horn" refers to the "winds" or the "horns". The evidence overwhelmingly points to "them" referring to the "winds" based on syntax, grammar, noun/pronoun gender agreement, and common sense. There's NO WAY Antiochus was "exceeding great" above Alex the very great or the greats of M.P.

Antiochus was a weak little chump who did absolutely nothing to merit himself as "exceeding great", right? If you say, "Well, he sacrificed a pig in the temple...well, what about Nebuchadnezzer? He slaughtered HUMANS right there in the temple to the glory of Baal and Bel, right? Or the Romans who did the same to the glory of Apollo their Sun God, right? How does a mere pig qualify Antiochus Epiphanes IV who was derogatorily referred to as "Epimenes" ("insane man") by his peers, as "exceeding great"?

Y'know who was exceeding great above Alex the very great? Rome, both pagan and papal - the papacy slaughter between 50 - 150 of God's faithful in His New Testament temple, the church. Now, if that doesn't qualify it as "exceeding great", I don't know what does.

Rome? You still can't see that the prophecy is obviously still in Greece? Rome didn't conquer until 146 BC. Whether he was as great as Alexander the Great is already shown in scripture that he was not. AtheG had all of Greece. AEIV only had a portion. But he had all the power over Israel, the Glorious Land. Read the books of Maccabees. I could only stomach them once. But it was enough to know their pain was horrific.

9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. (Israel) 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. (This is all true about Antiochus.)

BTW, in chapter 9 the vision of the 70 weeks refers to Media Persia's decree and the number of years to the Messiah. Nothing about Greece, so the 2300 days/6.3 years is mute as any kind of starting date, that BTW, lead to the great disappointment. (And there is no Investigative Judgment in scripture, but belief in that, or not, is no deal breaker to salvation, so go ahead. I'll stick with Scripture, and I'll stay away from all denominationalism)

The Maccabean revolt of Israel was before Christ. Now the emphasis goes to calculating the date of Israel's Messiah.

 

[Earburner]

My point is that there's no way Antiochus could be the subject of Daniel's words because Jesus plainly says the fulfillment of Daniel's words - in either type or antitype - was still future.

However, Rome was the type in 70 A.D. and the papacy will be the antitype in the near future with the Sunday Law.

Listen closely.
Though Jesus only had a ministry for 3 years, when he spoke of the AoD committed by AE, Jesus still had a "future" in His body of flesh and blood, upto His Crucifixion.
That IS the "future" that Jesus was POINTING TO!! The future of He Himself was going to be the "anti-type" of the AoD, as well as being the Temple restored.
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Do you now see (perceive, discern) how it was Jesus Himself who WAS THE "anti-type", and that no one or anything else is ever going to come again about it. It's a done deal.
Therefore, if there be anyone who teaches and preaches of an "AoD" to come, they are false teachers and false prophets, 100%.
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So for you to say that Rome was the "type" in 70AD, and that the papacy will be the "anti-type" in the near future, with a Global Sunday Law, you are immediately revealed as a false teacher and a false prophet. Why??
The anti-type to the AoD and the restoration of the temple of His body, was already fulfilled/completed IN Jesus and BY Jesus!
Do you understand?
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BTW the SDA religion is controlling your mouth.

 

[Earburner]

9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. (Israel) 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. (This is all true about Antiochus.)

CL, just to provide further support to the truthfulness of your post, there are many who are completely out of sorts in understanding who the "host" and the "host of heaven" were.
The word "host" means an army, that was opposing the army of Israel, aka the "host of heaven", and not armies of "angels", as many foolishly believe.
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Also the word "stars" is symbolic of individual co-commanders under the "prince of princes", who was Judas Maccabeus. Unfortunately, much of
"church-ianity" is completely off on a tangent in dream land, preaching their lies.

I hope that helps

 

[Enoch111]

I hope that helps

Actually your post simply added to the confusion. "The host of heaven" is indeed the armies of angels in Heaven, and "the Prince of princes" is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ (also called the King of kings and the Lord of lords).

 

[Jay Ross]

Well, if you're not man enough to dispute my claims, then maybe I'm right. And maybe you're ignorant.

Bobby Jo

So that is the basis of your "spiritual" confirmation that you are right. Sadly, people shy away from forum bullies like you. They will present their POV once or twice and then let you wallow in your own mud pond as all you do is beat your breast more strongly claiming that only you are right.

All that you have done is present some small cults thoughts on the matter of the beasts and used their material to put others down as your own.

You say you have had spiritual confirmation of your POV that all we have to do is identify the "people" who have manifested the wicked fallen evil heavenly hosts to know when the prophecies have been fulfilled and what they mean, because a number of people greater than 3 agree with you. Sadly you deny the spiritual connection in the Daniel beastly prophecies and as such demonstrate that you do not have the understanding of the Daniel prophecies to be profitable for the actual people of God. All you are doing is leading people into the delusion which you personally hold.

I would question whether or not you even know the presence of the HS in your life.

What you deny is the agelessness of the beasts that first appeared 300 or so years BC and the fact that they will be judged in heaven at the same time as the kings of the earth are judged at Armageddon who are alive and marching across the face of the earth at that time doing the bidding of the four beast influencers of Dan_7 and the little horn beast of chapters 7 and 8.

Oh well, I have spent too much time on exposing you for the fraud that you are, using the bible to justify yourself.

Shalom

 

[Jay Ross]

Actually, by all the Lord's truth THROUGH his Holy Spirit, "Bobby jo" (and CharismaticLady) are correct.
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Apart from all Religious influence and/or commentary by men, the Lord as shown me the SAME EXACT truth from those scriptures.
My knowledge is NOT SDA or from any other denomination.
For three people here, to AGREE on the Lord's revelation about the era of Antiochus Epiphanes and Judas Maccabeus, should ring loudly and clearly in your head, that WE do have His Truth about it.

God is not complicated, but He sure does know how to complicate it for the "scholarly learned". It's been keeping them busy for years and years, you included.

Jeremiah was also faced with three or more prophets who all agreed together and disagreed with what he was prophesising concerning the fate of Israel just before they went into exile in Babylon.

Now if you are not aligned with the SDAs, are you in fact aligned with the Bible Students and their understandings?

Now I have no problems with the concept of the Holy Spirit revealing God's truth concerning His prophetic utterances. However just because you have a number of people agreeing with you does not make you right, because they can be just as misguided as you.

You say that God has revealed to you that the era of Antiochus Epiphanes and Judas Maccabeus confirms the Daniel_8 prophecies, but I would suggest to you that within the historical records there are also the red herrings that have already lead you astray in your understanding.

The fulness in time of the heathen Gentile trampling the sanctuary of God still has not run its full course yet and it is scheduled to be completed in our near future when all of the Kings of the Earth will be judged at Armageddon. That means that the little horn has been given armies a number of times to trample the sanctuary of God even up to and including this present time, but as Rev_16:12-16 tells us the little horn will be given an army and all of the kings of the earth to go one last time towards Jerusalem to trample it for the last time before the conclusion of the Dan_8 prophecy. But you deny that the Muslim Army that captured Jerusalem and built a mosque on the temple mound is also not a part of this same prophecy and that the crusades were not a part of this same trampling prophecy.

Now am I also not using history to confirm what I understand to be God's truth? It just depends on your understanding as to what history and how much of the worlds history that you use to prove your POV.

Knowing God's truth is such a fickle thing.

Shalom

 

[Earburner]

Actually your post simply added to the confusion. "The host of heaven" is indeed the armies of angels in Heaven, and "the Prince of princes" is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ (also called the King of kings and the Lord of lords).

Are you saying that Israel was not an army of the Lord, in which the Lord used in battle against the heathens of the Gentiles?
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You have read Maccabees, correct? In the words of "the host of heaven", Israel rose up against the "hosts" of the Gentiles, and they against them.
Let's not now symbolize the angelic world into it, when the literal symbolism is clearly recorded as being what is plainly revealed.
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In the world of earthly princes, Judas Maccabeus was indeed God's chosen prince of "the heavenly host/army", being therefore in God's eyes, far above any and all of the worldly Gentile princes. In that meaning, JM was the prince of princes.
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I don't think you really know who or what Israel was, before the kingdom of God was taken from them and given to another? If you will, they were the vehicle by which God the Son would become flesh, and make His first appearance.
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All the churches need to stop fabricating fantasy into the literal and historical account of Maccabees.

Now, think on this: you are implying that earthly men, of mere flesh and blood trampled upon Holy angels, and then cast some of them to the ground?
You quoted:
10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them.

Please reconsider the above, and don't let denominational teachings guide you

 

[Enoch111]

Please reconsider the above, and don't let denominational teachings guide you

And please do not allow Jewish history to confuse you about Bible truth. Those are not "denominational teachings" but Bible truth. Big difference. We could go into great detail to refute your ideas, but it would be pointless.

 

[Jay Ross]

You quoted:
10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them.

We have to carefully consider the Hebrew word used here for "host." Is the "host" righteous, or has the "host" already rebelled against God?

I would humbly suggest that the four hosts of heaven are the four beasts, i.e. the "four winds of Heaven." Please note that the four winds of heaven are not directional.

Shalom

 

[Earburner]

Jeremiah was also faced with three or more prophets who all agreed together and disagreed with what he was prophesising concerning the fate of Israel just before they went into exile in Babylon.

Now if you are not aligned with the SDAs, are you in fact aligned with the Bible Students and their understandings?

Now I have no problems with the concept of the Holy Spirit revealing God's truth concerning His prophetic utterances. However just because you have a number of people agreeing with you does not make you right, because they can be just as misguided as you.

You say that God has revealed to you that the era of Antiochus Epiphanes and Judas Maccabeus confirms the Daniel_8 prophecies, but I would suggest to you that within the historical records there are also the red herrings that have already lead you astray in your understanding.

The fulness in time of the heathen Gentile trampling the sanctuary of God still has not run its full course yet and it is scheduled to be completed in our near future when all of the Kings of the Earth will be judged at Armageddon. That means that the little horn has been given armies a number of times to trample the sanctuary of God even up to and including this present time, but as Rev_16:12-16 tells us the little horn will be given an army and all of the kings of the earth to go one last time towards Jerusalem to trample it for the last time before the conclusion of the Dan_8 prophecy. But you deny that the Muslim Army that captured Jerusalem and built a mosque on the temple mound is also not a part of this same prophecy and that the crusades were not a part of this same trampling prophecy.

Now am I also not using history to confirm what I understand to be God's truth? It just depends on your understanding as to what history and how much of the worlds history that you use to prove your POV.

Knowing God's truth is such a fickle thing.

Shalom

It's not fickle, when you understand the concepts involved. Religious men of "scholarly learning" have made a mess out of it!

I don't think that you are applying the concept of "type/antitype" correctly.
In Daniel's visions, God through the angel Gabriel, was foretelling the events that were going to take place in the world for and/or against Israel.

There is nothing especially "religious" about all that, except it to be the common every day situations and confrontations of peoples and empires, during that time.
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After it was all played out, as casted on a stage, Jesus selected those events that had transpired, as being "types" to Himself, being the only "anti-type", that their clueless actions (to themselves) typified.

 

[Earburner]

We have to carefully consider the Hebrew word used here for "host." Is the "host" righteous, or has the "host" already rebelled against God?

I would humbly suggest that the four hosts of heaven are the four beasts, i.e. the "four winds of Heaven." Please note that the four winds of heaven are not directional.

Shalom

Looking for your scriptural quotes that you are selecting from.

 

[Jay Ross]

It's not fickle, when you understand the concepts involved. Religious men of "scholarly learning" have made a mess out of it!

I don't think that you are applying the concept of "type/antitype" correctly.
In Daniel's visions, God through the angel Gabriel, was foretelling the events that were going to take place in the world for and/or against Israel.

There is nothing especially "religious" about all that, except it to be the common every day situations and confrontations of peoples and empires, during that time.
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After it was all played out, as casted on a stage, Jesus selected those events that had transpired, as being "types" to Himself, being the only "anti-type", that their clueless actions (to themselves) typified.

So be it, you are the so called expert of "scholarly learning" that you speak of in this thread. Do not be disappointed, there are others as well.

Shalom

 

[Earburner]

And please do not allow Jewish history to confuse you about Bible truth. Those are not "denominational teachings" but Bible truth. Big difference. We could go into great detail to refute your ideas, but it would be pointless.

No need to play that "religious" card, when for hundreds of years, Maccabees has been in the Catholic Vulgate and Douay Rheims bibles, but not in the Protestant bibles? Oh yes, you did say "denominational teachings".

 

[Earburner]

What I mean is, I am not speaking through "denominational teachings", but rather Bible Truth, through His Holy Spirit. Isaiah 55:8-9; John 16:13