What do you think this text says about the deity of Christ?

[justbyfaith]

@APAK, @DNB, and cohorts;

have you considered what it says in Luke 17:11-19?

Luk 17:11, And it came to pass, as he went to Jerusalem, that he passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee.
Luk 17:12, And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:
Luk 17:13, And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
Luk 17:14, And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
Luk 17:15, And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
Luk 17:16, And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
Luk 17:17, And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?
Luk 17:18, There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
Luk 17:19, And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

 

[justbyfaith]

Or are we talking about two groups of believers in Jesus with differences in their beliefs and members of each group insisting that they are right while also insisting that those disagreeing with them are in error? Both are insistent! Both, if they really did meet Jesus started as infants. Has either one of them grown or matured in God? In a stunted or immature place they will remain spiritual babies continuing on milk never learning to partake of meat or learn to speak in more than a spiritual babble or confusion. God, of course, is not the author of confusion.

Standing still in what we had when we first believed eventually may lead us to that stunted growth and/or stagnation and death. If we don't grow, we will die.

Here is the "old man":

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

Here is the way for the "new man" to grow or mature:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

If a person with the Holy Ghost in him learns very early, as many people do, to quench the Holy Ghost/Spirit in themselves instead listening to and following growth is stunted and hindered severely. If the person runs out of time, what will his final result be?

All church groups [denominations?] in my experience routinely teach people to quench the Spirit of God by their rules within their assemblies. The result is stunted growth or stagnation and death, instead of the Life which never ends...

This subject is being discussed in a more concise environment here:

Truth is not relative

 

[marks]

This is where going down to nothing comes into play. I look to the parable in Luke 14:8-11. We all need to regularly go the "lowest room" and then never elevate ourselves. Let God do it.

Hi Amadeus,

What does that look like? going to the "lowest room"?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I respect you @marks to a very great degree, but I think that we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

I think that if anyone really knows Christ, they understand that He is the God who created them.

If knowing Christ is a prerequisite for salvation, or the sure sign that a person is saved, then denying the doctrine of His Deity would qualify as not knowing Him and would place that person outside of the kingdom.

I'm just saying that I don't think we have to understand even very much at all to then be born again. Calling upon God looking for His mercy is I think enough.

To be mature I believe involves understanding in a deeper way our relationship with our Creator, and that He's come to earth to reconciled us to Himself.

Not to worry!

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

I'm just saying that I don't think we have to understand even very much at all to then be born again. Calling upon God looking for His mercy is I think enough.

To be mature I believe involves understanding in a deeper way our relationship with our Creator, and that He's come to earth to reconciled us to Himself.

Not to worry!

Much love!

Yes, I'm certainly aware that a new believer may have never read John 1:1-3, 14, for example; and therefore may have no concept of the Deity of Christ in scripture.

Given that the gospel of John is most recommended as a first read for every new believer, I don't think it will be very long before he or she believes the testimony of scripture on the subject, unless he or she somehow possesses a NeWT as a Bible.

If that new believer says in his heart, I know that it says that the Word, Jesus, is God, but I choose not to believe that; there are deeper problems. They may not be a believer at all because they effectively do not accept the plenary inspiration of scripture; and do not receive its testimony.

 

[Renniks]

Or are we talking about two groups of believers in Jesus with differences in their beliefs and members of each group insisting that they are right while also insisting that those disagreeing with them are in error? Both are insistent! Both, if they really did meet Jesus started as infants. Has either one of them grown or matured in God? In a stunted or immature place they will remain spiritual babies continuing on milk never learning to partake of meat or learn to speak in more than a spiritual babble or confusion. God, of course, is not the author of confusion.

Standing still in what we had when we first believed eventually may lead us to that stunted growth and/or stagnation and death. If we don't grow, we will die.

Here is the "old man":

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

Here is the way for the "new man" to grow or mature:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

If a person with the Holy Ghost in him learns very early, as many people do, to quench the Holy Ghost/Spirit in themselves instead listening to and following growth is stunted and hindered severely. If the person runs out of time, what will his final result be?

All church groups [denominations?] in my experience routinely teach people to quench the Spirit of God by their rules within their assemblies. The result is stunted growth or stagnation and death, instead of the Life which never ends...

No mature Christian would deny that Jesus is God. We pray in his name. I pray to him directly, as God, not as some high angel. There's a reason this has been considered heresy since 325 AD.
The Bible teaches that Jesus is equal in nature to God the Father. Jesus is the Creator of everything - not everything but Himself. The Bible says.

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made (John 1:3)

Paul wrote the to the Colossians.

For by him [Jesus] all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him (Colossians 1:16).

There is no hint in Scripture that Jesus was a created being. He not only existed before all things He is also preeminent over all things.

 

[marks]

Look up each verse where you read it and then look at the context for each carefully and really pray that you are not using your own ideas infused to make a conclusion. You might surprise yourself. And it does take a little time...here are some of the verses you addressed, you might want to check out...
Matt 2:11; 14:33; 20:20; 28:9-10, 16-17; Mark 5:6; Luke 24:51; John 9:37-38; Heb 1:6; Rev 22:3

I think you are missing one.

Revelation 19:10 "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

When John offered worship to the angel, he was immediately corrected. Would Jesus do any less?

Much love!

 

[Enoch111]

Where does the scripture read that a person must believe that Jesus is God and equal to his Father in order Not to die in his sins?

So Amadeus, it appears that you have joined the naysayers in questioning whether Jesus is God, and whether a sinner must believe that He is God in order to be saved. I have always assumed that you are a genuine believer, therefore your question above is frankly shocking.

Do you want one Scripture text or do you want the whole tenor of the Bible? The whole tenor of the Bible says that Jesus is God (equal to the Father and the Holy Spirit) who became Man to die for our sins. Unless He is God He could not possibly take away the sins of the whole world. So anyone who says that he/she believes on the Lord Jesus Christ but does NOT believe that He is God is simply fooling himself/herself.

Now I will give you JUST ONE Scripture to firmly establish that Jesus is indeed God who shed His blood for our redemption, and both the Critical Text as well as the Received Text say the same thing (so there is no dispute about the authenticity of this verse).

ACTS 20:28: GOD SHED HIS BLOOD FOR OUR REDEMPTION
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the Church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood.

CRITICAL TEXT
προσέχετε ἑαυτοῖς καὶ παντὶ τῷ ποιμνίῳ, ἐν ᾧ ὑμᾶς τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον ἔθετο ἐπισκόπους, ποιμαίνειν τὴν ἐκκλησίαν τοῦ θεοῦ, ἣν περιεποιήσατο διὰ τοῦ αἵματος τοῦ ἰδίου.

RECEIVED TEXT
προσέχετε οὖν ἑαυτοῖς καὶ παντὶ τῷ ποιμνίῳ, ἐν ᾧ ὑμᾶς τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον ἔθετο ἐπισκόπους, ποιμαίνειν τὴν ἐκκλησίαν τοῦ Θεοῦ, ἣν περιεποιήσατο διὰ τοῦ ἰδίου αἵματος.

Who shed His blood on the cross? Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews. But the Holy Spirit tells us through Paul that that was the blood of God. So do you or do you not believe that Jesus is God?

 

[APAK]

@APAK, @DNB, and cohorts;

have you considered what it says in Luke 17:11-19?

Luk 17:11, And it came to pass, as he went to Jerusalem, that he passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee.
Luk 17:12, And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:
Luk 17:13, And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
Luk 17:14, And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
Luk 17:15, And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
Luk 17:16, And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
Luk 17:17, And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?
Luk 17:18, There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
Luk 17:19, And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

It sounds by your writing that you are desperate for attention and recognition..not surprised though...I really did not want to respond as I usually do and I won't...I will be lazy here and give you a commentary from another person on the subject....it seems to cover it pretty well..and in my view..

--------start of quote by Matthew Poole------he was an English minister and Bible Commentator and a non-conformist b. 1624 and d.1679


Matthew Poole's English Annotations on the Holy Bible
Ver. 15,16. It is most probable that this leper first showed himself to the priest, according to the commandment and the direction of our Saviour, and then returned to give our Saviour thanks. Some think that this glorifying God here mentioned, and his giving thanks to Christ, signify the same thing. I doubt it, because nothing appeareth from this story sufficient to convince us that he looked upon Christ as God; nay, it doth not appear that his faith was risen so high as to believe him the Messiah, the Son of David; they speak to him only under the notion of Jesus, Master, Luke 17:13. It is plain they believed him at least to be a great prophet, sent from God, and clothed with a power from God. I choose rather therefore to interpret his falling down on his face at his feet, as a humble posture of reverence, which those nations did often use to compliment their superiors by, even as a posture of adoration; and that his glorifying God was a praising of him as the principal efficient cause of his healing, and his giving thanks to Christ a civil respect paid to Christ as God’s instrument in the case. The evangelist addeth, and he was a Samaritan. Christ calls him a stranger, Luke 17:18 a stranger to the commonwealth of Israel, as all the Samaritans were.

----end quote------

Blessings,

APAK

 

[amadeus]

@justbyfaith

amadeus said: ↑
The only way we can change, if change is needed, is to yield ourselves to God.

justbyfaith said:
Indeed. And also, we can be shown the truth by someone else as the result of a discussion on what the scripture teaches; and change our mind because of the discussion.

We don't change our mind because of discussion, not with regard to God and the things of God. If we are open to the lead of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit may use the discussion to change our minds.

amadeus said: ↑
This is where going down to nothing comes into play.

justbyfaith said:
Personally, I believe that if we have built gold, silver, and precious gems on the foundation of Jesus Christ (as concerning doctrine that is believed by us) that it is not wise to tear down that aspect of the building in order to build more on that foundation. It is wiser to build up on what has already been built.

But what are 'gold', 'silver' and 'precious stones'? Do you know what they are?

What and who is Jesus and of what is he to be the foundation? If our foundation and those building blocks are sound according to God, going to the "lowest room" will not diminish them. God will elevate us right back to where we were and perhaps higher. If they are not sound and we won't go to that "lowest room", then any negative result because of that lack of soundness will be reflected in us.

The problem you see my friend is that you and many others labeling yourselves as something of God's will not admit even the possibility that you are wrong in anything you have with regard to God. Only by admitting the possibility that you are in error, do you allow God to reassure you in where you or when necessary to change you... that is to increase you.

You need to learn what John the Baptist knew:

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

Lots of people around with their own versions of absolute truth and not even God is allowed to suggest otherwise. Does that include you? Do you really know God so well that He cannot teach you anything new or correct anything you believe you know? Do you really know God and the things of God so well?

Many years ago I was grounded in my own version of absolute truth... I have grown since then and I hope to grow further. I have grown and expect to grow further because I have learned enough to know that there is a lot that God knows beyond my furthest imagination. While I stand where I am at the moment I admit to God the possibility of my errors. Many times over the years doing this [going to the "lowest room"] He has increased me. What is the limit? Not God! The limit for each person is himself!

Luk 8:18, Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

God won't take away anything you have that is real and good [remembering what 'good' is]. But none of us can tell the difference between that which is real and that which is only something we believe is real or seems to be real. While any of us are still living by faith this will be true. If He is increasing in us and we are decreasing in ourselves, the balance will be shifting and we will becoming like him now... not in some fuzzy hereafter.

 

[APAK]

I think you are missing one.

Revelation 19:10 "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

When John offered worship to the angel, he was immediately corrected. Would Jesus do any less?

Much love!

marks...I missed one..well it was not an exhausive list anyway....this is deja vu all over gain for me....I'll get back with you after I do a few things at home...APAK

 

[amadeus]

As does a human child his father.

Do you really believe that? A human child staying around his father and being treated by his father as a father should treat his own child may indeed come to recognize and accept the relationship. Don't presume that all fathers treat their own children as well as that. The ideal is our heavenly Father. How close do most human come to realizing such an ideal?

 

[marks]

@APAK just to make sure this wasn't missed . . .

Thank you my friend!

And now . . . what I was jumping the gun on . . .

If God was alone in the beginning, aside from the obvious problem with John 1:1, the Word was with God, that aside . . .

Whom did God love? Not self-love, we know that is indulgent. If God was alone in the beginning, there was none to love, and therefore God could not, did not love.

At some instant, God "decided" to become a lover, and created Jesus, and began to love.

Not that God IS love, but that the God Who was alone, wanted to love, created Jesus, and began to love.

God Changed.

Your thoughts?

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

This subject is being discussed in a more concise environment here:

Truth is not relative

Truth is not, but people certainly are. People being different see truth differently from person to person. God does not, which is why we need to become like Him. Until we are...?

 

[amadeus]

Hi Amadeus,

What does that look like? going to the "lowest room"?

Much love!

It a place that may be difficult for us to go, especially if our indoctrination or our elevated position is very important to us. A person with a respected position in a church setting may not be able to let go of what he has for long enough to even begin the approach to the "lowest room". The problem with those sitting in the pews could be just as great.

"But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee." Luke 14:10

Let us not presume, because yesterday God was using us to lay hands on people and they were instantly healed from their infirmities or were instantly filled with the Holy Ghost, that today we will be doing the same. Are we leading because of what went before or are we always following the lead of the Holy Ghost no matter what has happened previously?

 

[justbyfaith]

What and who is Jesus and of what is he to be the foundation?

Pro 30:7, Two things have I required of thee; deny me them not before I die:
Pro 30:8, Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:
Pro 30:9, Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.

But what are 'gold', 'silver' and 'precious stones'? Do you know what they are?

The truth of God's word (John 17:17).

Do you really know God so well that He cannot teach you anything new or correct anything you believe you know?

I would ask you the same question.

Many years ago I was grounded in my own version of absolute truth... I have grown since then and I hope to grow further. I have grown and expect to grow further because I have learned enough to know that there is a lot that God knows beyond my furthest imagination.

There is in fact such a thing as absolute truth. We can know all things through the unction and anointing of the Holy Ghost. If we are ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, that is a bad thing according to scripture.

 

[justbyfaith]

It sounds by your writing that you are desperate for attention and recognition..not surprised though...I really did not want to respond as I usually do and I won't...I will be lazy here and give you a commentary from another person on the subject....it seems to cover it pretty well..and in my view..

--------start of quote by Matthew Poole------he was an English minister and Bible Commentator and a non-conformist b. 1624 and d.1679


Matthew Poole's English Annotations on the Holy Bible
Ver. 15,16. It is most probable that this leper first showed himself to the priest, according to the commandment and the direction of our Saviour, and then returned to give our Saviour thanks. Some think that this glorifying God here mentioned, and his giving thanks to Christ, signify the same thing. I doubt it, because nothing appeareth from this story sufficient to convince us that he looked upon Christ as God; nay, it doth not appear that his faith was risen so high as to believe him the Messiah, the Son of David; they speak to him only under the notion of Jesus, Master, Luke 17:13. It is plain they believed him at least to be a great prophet, sent from God, and clothed with a power from God. I choose rather therefore to interpret his falling down on his face at his feet, as a humble posture of reverence, which those nations did often use to compliment their superiors by, even as a posture of adoration; and that his glorifying God was a praising of him as the principal efficient cause of his healing, and his giving thanks to Christ a civil respect paid to Christ as God’s instrument in the case. The evangelist addeth, and he was a Samaritan. Christ calls him a stranger, Luke 17:18 a stranger to the commonwealth of Israel, as all the Samaritans were.

----end quote------

Blessings,

APAK

My point in the passage was that when it says the lame man fell down at his feet, that personal pronoun refers back to the noun God in the previous verse. But it was Jesus' feet at whom the man fell.

 

[APAK]

@APAK just to make sure this wasn't missed . . .

ok...same as Rev 22:9.."worship God!," the LORD, YHWH, not his Son, the word of YHWH, who possessed the spirit of prophecy given to him by his, and our Father.

 

[marks]

ok...same as Rev 22:9.."worship God!," the LORD, YHWH, not his Son, the word of YHWH, who possessed the spirit of prophecy given to him by his, and our Father.

But why would Jesus be remiss about this? Allowing Thomas to worship Him as God?

 

[Angelina]

You sound like you're very proud of yourself.

Some of them probably don't or won't (in the future) believe in the Deity of Christ and if they die not believing in that, it will be in their sins.

Wouldn't you be proud that God used you this way? Faith in action? exploits for his kingdom and glory?

JBF

Some of them probably don't or won't (in the future)believe in the Deity of Christ and if they die not believing in that, it will be in their sins

...There you go again. Down playing and questioning the power of God working in a new believer. You seem to think that God is powerless in new believers lives?
.