What do you think this text says about the deity of Christ?

[justbyfaith]

There is no way under the sun that you will address the first two fundamental points.

We'll see.

Answer the question JBF. I said that that only thing that you have been able to extrapolate from Scripture, is a doctrine that is absurd, implausible and incomprehensible both to you, and all the other trinitarian proponents out there.
Are you willing to admit this much?

I would only refer you to Romans 11:33-36 and Isaiah 55:9.

And then, explain to us how a doctrine that, according to you, is requisite for salvation, does not have a single term or nomenclature in line with its definition, found from anywhere in Scripture (god-man, incarnate, God the Son, trinity/triune, three-in-one, two-in one natures, ...)?

The word "Bible" is not even in the Bible. Do you conclude that therefore there is no such thing, or that such a thing does not pertain to real Christianity?

The teaching (the doctrine of the Trinity) is there if you are willing to look for it and to believe in it when you see it.

Mat 7:7, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8, For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

 

[Renniks]

The transliterated word, for word in Greek 'Logos' is never a person (he or she). It is male gender in Greek and an 'it' when translated into English.

Let me expand on this for a bit...from some of my personal notes for expedience...

For some unfortunate reason, the Greek transliterated symbol ‘logos’ was translated into English as the symbol word ‘word.’

The Greek symbol ὁ λόγος does not have to be translated into English as ‘word.’ It actually means thought(s), speech, command(s), or will, voiced or spoken as an expression of thought(s) as a plan or purpose placed into words forming a message transmitted and intended to be heard by a being, a person or persons. It is never used for a person or any gender!!

The Greek transliterated word ‘logos’ is a masculine gender noun or name in the Greek language. Once however ‘logos’ is translated into English it becomes a neuter pronoun, an ‘it.’ This is because the English language does not have male or female gender attached to it adjectives and nouns. Many make the case that since ‘logos’ is a male gender in Greek, it means a male person or pronoun in English. This is at least intellectual dishonesty, and they must know it. The French for the table is ‘le tableau.’ It is a male gendered noun and yet the table is not really a ‘male’ table, it is a neuter, an ‘it,’ as in an inanimate object. The same as logos - it is an 'it.'

APAK

What is the conclusion of all your supposing here?
When we read: "In the beginning was the Word" in John's Gospel, we should immediately think of another Bible text that begins with the same introductory phrase. Genesis 1:1 says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

 

[marks]

PS Marks you are definitely forgiven. All spirits in the Spirit, including my own, will not rest until it is healed and reconciled with the Spirit of truth and peace within us ..Amen

Thank you my friend!

And now . . . what I was jumping the gun on . . .

If God was alone in the beginning, aside from the obvious problem with John 1:1, the Word was with God, that aside . . .

Whom did God love? Not self-love, we know that is indulgent. If God was alone in the beginning, there was none to love, and therefore God could not, did not love.

At some instant, God "decided" to become a lover, and created Jesus, and began to love.

Not that God IS love, but that the God Who was alone, wanted to love, created Jesus, and began to love.

God Changed.

Your thoughts?

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

...with that boast bro and no-one can make you boast. You have a free will to do or not to do according to the will of God.

When it is to my disadvantage if I do not boast about who I am and what I do as a believer, it is expedient for me to do so; and I may even be compelled to do so.

You're right...you can't make me do anything...but you can create a situation where I would be foolish not to do something; even if the thing in question is foolish in itself.

 

[lforrest]

Bro....to me, you come across like you are a baby Christian and I am being quite patient with you whereas I wouldn't to anyone who has been down the road a long time. Maturity does not come with age. It comes with quality relationship with the Holy Spirit.

I have never disputed the fact that Jesus is Lord and he is God and he is a part of the Godhead. I have and will continue to dispute however, as I have done so since the beginning of this tragic discussion with you, that knowing the Deity of Christ is not a requirement for Salvation.

The scriptures stating belief in Jesus as the Son of God to be a requirement for eternal life or salvation:
John 3:18, 1 John 4:15, 1 John 5:10-11

Does Jesus being the Son of God mean he has God's deity?
The only explanation i have heard for this is that he is indeed God in the flesh. The alternative is to believe as some do that he is an angel, and a watered down interpretation that messiah means "God is with us."

There is also the warning of false Messiahs, so it stands to reason there are false images of Jesus. I'm speaking beyond the cult leaders claiming to be Jesus. There are more subtle ideas of him, like the Muslim prophet.
Matthew 24:24

 

[justbyfaith]

Isaiah 9:6 shows clearly that the son that was given is God in the flesh.

 

[APAK]

What is the conclusion of all your supposing here?
When we read: "In the beginning was the Word" in John's Gospel, we should immediately think of another Bible text that begins with the same introductory phrase. Genesis 1:1 says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

Yes you are right, John does use the same form as in Genesis as John continues with this style and reinforces it in John 1:3 - that his own word (plan/purpose/wisdom and commands) created all of creation. He did it alone, with angels of a kind, present for some of it! And later in verse 14 his word would eventually include man himself, the last and 2nd Adam! YHWH's developing plan and execution became or came through a human man, called Jesus (Yahshua), his Son.... and he lived and lives with us, even to those that 'believe' in his words and works today through the Father's Spirit that is divine and holy. YHWH created, as part of his preconceived plan, a human vehicle, Savior and Son, as the means for completing his plan and execution of and for the restoration and salvation for all mankind and his creation. 'We' saw, those that saw Christ in the flesh, his glory (his mannerisms, knowledge, truth, miracles, forgiveness of sin, raising people from the dead, etc), of his Father, as no one else, as the Son of YHWH...a man miraculously and supernaturally born by the creator of all, via his (Holy) Spirit, to Save us...Yahshua was full of the grace and truth of his Father as he was conceived and born from his Spirit (the first and only natural born believer in YHWH if you will) He was a type of Adam....

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Renniks]

Yes you are right, John does use the same form as in Genesis as John continues with this style and reinforces it in John 1:3 - that his own word (plan/purpose/wisdom and commands) created all of creation. He did it alone, with angels of a kind, present for some of it! And later in verse 14 his word would eventually include man himself, the last and 2nd Adam! YHWH's developing plan and execution became or came through a human man, called Jesus (Yahshua), his Son.... and he lived and lives with us, even to those that 'believe' in his words and works today through the Father's Spirit that is divine and holy. YHWH created, as part of his preconceived plan, a human vehicle, Savior and Son, as the means for completing his plan and execution of and for the restoration and salvation for all mankind and his creation. 'We' saw, those that saw Christ in the flesh, his glory (his mannerisms, knowledge, truth, miracles, forgiveness of sin, raising people from the dead, etc), of his Father, as no one else, as the Son of YHWH...a man miraculously and supernaturally born by the creator of all, via his (Holy) Spirit, to Save us...Yahshua was full of the grace and truth of his Father as he was conceived and born from his Spirit (the first and only natural born believer in YHWH if you will) He was a type of Adam....

Bless you,

APAK

No, Jesus accepted worship as God. No mere human would do that unless he were evil. Jesus and the father are one. He had no beginning.

 

[marks]

Although they followed the law of Moses, they did not abide by it. They were hypocrites. They knew that the Messiah was coming but did not recognise him because they were viewing him in the flesh. They had knowledge and understanding from the scrolls handed down from generation to generation but they relied more on the fact that they were descendants of Abraham. There is more to this story than what I have said and you can read it yourself if you want to. John 8

From my studies "ego eimi", I am, the "he" is included in the meaning, so the translation "unless you believe I am he" is perfectly valid, so far as I can tell. In other places ego eimi, I am, is used not for God, just to say, I am a centurian, I am an old man, like that.

23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

I know that many people relate this place to later in the passage where Jesus tells them "before Abraham was, I AM", prefering then the reading, "Unless you believe I AM, you shall die in your sins", making this a requirement of belief in the deity of Christ.

Personally I think it more relates to Jesus telling them He is the One come down from heaven, that's what they have to believe, but also that He's leading up to that stronger declaration, before Abraham was I AM, which to me is unmistakable in itself.

I'm not dogmatic either way, it just makes more sense to me like that.

In Joel, quoted by Peter on Pentecost, God tells us, all who call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved. I think God makes it simple.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You don't want to, or can't, answer my question about Philippians?

post #172 (What do you think this text says about the deity of Christ?)

Hi justbyfaith,

Just for my own clarity . . . is the question you are asking, Why the different standard of belief for Jew and Gentile?

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi justbyfaith,

Just for my own clarity . . . is the question you are asking, Why the different standard of belief for Jew and Gentile?

Much love!

Yes, pretty much.

I believe that Jew and Gentile are treated the same according to the Lord's economy; the only difference is that the Jews were given the law and Gentiles don't get a-hold of the law until after they have received Jesus normally.

As Gentiles, we start with the New Testament. Whereas Jews start with the Old.

But all of scripture applies equally to each people group.

Correct me with scripture if I am wrong.

 

[amadeus]

I suppose that I am going about it the wrong way. But it is only because I care.

I suppose that if I didn't care, my methods would be more acceptable to everyone.

You believe you are right in what you believe. You are sincere, but none of us should presume that our sincerity even in doctrines based on the written scriptures makes us correct in every case.

Everyone who really follows God in any measure believes he is already right or he would change. The only way we can change, if change is needed, is to yield ourselves to God. When we insist on holding onto to anything we already believe, based on our understanding of scripture [how well or completely do any of us understand what is written?], we resist God. We block Him. He cannot add or change what we have where addition would help or change would correct. He has given us this authority. It is, I believe, what men call, free will. We have the authority to go against God until our time here is finished. But... taking hold of our own reins always leads to trouble with God.

This is where going down to nothing comes into play. I look to the parable in Luke 14:8-11. We all need to regularly go the "lowest room" and then never elevate ourselves. Let God do it.

 

[marks]

Yes, pretty much.

I believe that Jew and Gentile are treated the same according to the Lord's economy; the only difference is that the Jews were given the law and Gentiles don't get a-hold of the law until after they have received Jesus normally.

As Gentiles, we start with the New Testament. Whereas Jews start with the Old.

But all of scripture applies equally to each people group.

Correct me with scripture if I am wrong.

I look at things like, "All who call upon the Name of the LORD shall be saved", and "if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead you will be saved."

I could make a case that confessing the Deity of Jesus is included in those, but I don't think that's so.

I think there are all sorts of ways we can fall short in our understanding, of sin, of death, of the nature of evil, the nature of God, including who exactly Jesus is. The Lamb of God, who carries away the sin of the world, that's the important thing I think. But in time we come to learn.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

The child knows instinctively that he is in the arms of his father.

A beast knows his mother instinctively. We are to be killing our beasts by the Holy Spirit in us when we have been born anew from above.. As we kill beasts, our old man, our vision of our Father improves. We are getting to know him better.

"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts." Ecc 3:18

"[Wisdom] She hath killed her beasts..."Prov 9:2

"And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." Eph 4:24

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:11-12

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

 

[justbyfaith]

The only way we can change, if change is needed, is to yield ourselves to God.

Indeed. And also, we can be shown the truth by someone else as the result of a discussion on what the scripture teaches; and change our mind because of the discussion.

This is where going down to nothing comes into play.

Personally, I believe that if we have built gold, silver, and precious gems on the foundation of Jesus Christ (as concerning doctrine that is believed by us) that it is not wise to tear down that aspect of the building in order to build more on that foundation. It is wiser to build up on what has already been built.

Luk 8:18, Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

 

[justbyfaith]

A beast knows his mother instinctively.

As does a human child his father.

 

[justbyfaith]

I look at things like, "All who call upon the Name of the LORD shall be saved", and "if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead you will be saved."

I could make a case that confessing the Deity of Jesus is included in those, but I don't think that's so.

I think there are all sorts of ways we can fall short in our understanding, of sin, of death, of the nature of evil, the nature of God, including who exactly Jesus is. The Lamb of God, who carries away the sin of the world, that's the important thing I think. But in time we come to learn.

Much love!

I respect you @marks to a very great degree, but I think that we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

I think that if anyone really knows Christ, they understand that He is the God who created them.

If knowing Christ is a prerequisite for salvation, or the sure sign that a person is saved, then denying the doctrine of His Deity would qualify as not knowing Him and would place that person outside of the kingdom.

 

[101G]

Isaiah 9:6 shows clearly that the son that was given is God in the flesh.

JBF, if this was the son that was given, my question to you who is the "ARM" of God according to Isaiah 63:5

PICJAG.

 

[APAK]

No, Jesus accepted worship as God. No mere human would do that unless he were evil. Jesus and the father are one. He had no beginning.

There are at least 10 places in scripture that uses the word 'worship' in the midst of Christ whether he was still a baby or as an adult with his disciples. I would think that as a baby he never 'accepted worship' from the Wise men, for example. The actual word worship as translated for the Greek transliterated word "proskuneo" - it is a common and widely used word in the Greek and even Hebrew culture for degrees of reverence and respect and not necessarily true worship or adoration. So it does not mean worship in the sense that you most probably think of it. It is reserved for YHWH our creator, only. Bowing down and ones head to a head of State or as the emissary of the King for example does not mean it is a sign of adoration or worship. It may mean the adoration of the source of, in this case, divinity and creation...the Father.

Look up each verse where you read it and then look at the context for each carefully and really pray that you are not using your own ideas infused to make a conclusion. You might surprise yourself. And it does take a little time...here are some of the verses you addressed, you might want to check out...
Matt 2:11; 14:33; 20:20; 28:9-10, 16-17; Mark 5:6; Luke 24:51; John 9:37-38; Heb 1:6; Rev 22:3

Remember too, that Yahshua never made adoration or worship to himself, only to his Father, YHWH.
YHWH says of himself that...true worshippers shall worship the FATHER in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
As his Son, Yahshua said...When ye pray, say, OUR FATHER which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, for THINE is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory for ever, Amen.”..

Bless you,

APAK

 

[amadeus]

We aren't talking about infants. We are talking about people who insist on wrong doctrine, and make Jesus someone far less than he claimed to be.

Or are we talking about two groups of believers in Jesus with differences in their beliefs and members of each group insisting that they are right while also insisting that those disagreeing with them are in error? Both are insistent! Both, if they really did meet Jesus started as infants. Has either one of them grown or matured in God? In a stunted or immature place they will remain spiritual babies continuing on milk never learning to partake of meat or learn to speak in more than a spiritual babble or confusion. God, of course, is not the author of confusion.

Standing still in what we had when we first believed eventually may lead us to that stunted growth and/or stagnation and death. If we don't grow, we will die.

Here is the "old man":

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

Here is the way for the "new man" to grow or mature:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

If a person with the Holy Ghost in him learns very early, as many people do, to quench the Holy Ghost/Spirit in themselves instead listening to and following growth is stunted and hindered severely. If the person runs out of time, what will his final result be?

All church groups [denominations?] in my experience routinely teach people to quench the Spirit of God by their rules within their assemblies. The result is stunted growth or stagnation and death, instead of the Life which never ends...