What Does GOD Mean By This Scripture ??

[musicworld]

Romans 9:15-20

I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,​

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.​

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.One of you will say to me,Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will? But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?​

​

I would like to think of my GOD as being caring and loving for his creations and I'm sure he is but his word confuses me here what exactly does he mean I will harden whom I wish to harden and that if man then turns to say how can he blame us for our ways if he has hardened us and GOD then says but who are you O man to speak back to GOD Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, Why did you make me like this? There seems to be a contradiction here in terms of what we would want to be for GOD as apposed to what it is he already made us, It seems that GOD is playing with us. I could be wrong of course?

 

[HammerStone]

This discussion has come up a lot lately for me.One of the most prevalent characteristics or roles ascribed to God in the Bible is that of the potter. It's particularly a personal relationship because a potter in the times when Scripture was inspired individually made each pottery item. I'm particularly blessed in that I hunt for and find Native American pottery here in the US. Each shard even has a story to tell, you can see the marks and I have some pieces which even have the fingerprints of the creator in them. We see this metaphor present when God formed man of the ground, Jesus healed the sick with his hands, the potter's field and Judas, and we will see it further when the bad pottery vessels end up in the fire.Where am I going with this? God knows each soul, this is a title which is ascribed to Him in the New Testament. It is found in Acts 1:24, not coincidentally, dealing with Judas whom Jesus clearly cited as "the one" before Gethsemane.The Greek word is kardiognostes and I firmly believe it is a name of God. It literally means heart-knower, as the Gr. kario = cardio (heart) and gnostes = knowledge. (It is Strong's #2589 for further study). Now I can understand if you disagree with it being a proper name, but it is most certainly at least an adjective or title ascribed to Him. Kardiognostes is used only one more time in the Bible and it's Acts 15:8 where God gives the Holy Spirit.As such, this title means exactly what it says; God is the heart-knower in that he discerns the very intentions of the heart. That is something no human can do, period. We humans have made things even more ambiguous in our zeal for political correctness.We don't want to acknowledge that some people are just bad apples, plain and simple. God doesn't have that problem, because he discerns the heart. He knows where you are going, and the path we'll take is all the more clearer because he is God and not man. Remember that God is far more powerful than man, it certainly follows that he is able to discern far more than man. If he can send the Holy Spirit to your heart, he can certainly tell what's in that heart (mind).So the case here is that God is certainly not playing. Remember that God gave mercy to whomsoever will believe despite our unworthy nature. John 3:16 affirms that amongst many other places in the Bible. He himself took on the form of a man - one of those pottery vessels he made - and died so that you and I could live eternally. That's an awesome sacrifice for anyone to make - but doubly so for one who does not have to make it.In the same vein that God can give mercy, he can harden. Our natural inclination is to hear the word harden and think God takes a perfectly nice person and makes them evil. That's not the case; any Webster's Dictionary will show that you can harden something that is already hard. God knew Pharaoh's heart just as he knows mine and yours. He knew Pharaoh would never relent because God is God or because he felt anything for the Israelites. God used this condition to show many miracles to his children, those whom will just listen. God is entirely righteous, his actions are not anything but righteous. He does not play, he saves even if it's through the condemnation of others who are already lost.That's not to deny that anyone can repent, even Pharaoh and even Judas. I wouldn't say that you couldn't meet either in heaven someday, because God alone judges. As such, I willfully submit to an intelligent and benevolent Creator that formed me, gave me a letter, and strengthens me on a daily basis.

 

[musicworld]

We don't want to acknowledge that some people are just bad apples, plain and simple, God doesn't have that problem, because he discerns the heart. He knows where you are going, and the path we'll take. In the same vein that God can give mercy, he can harden. God is entirely righteous, his actions are not anything but righteous. He does not play, he saves even if it's through the condemnation of others who are already lost.

So let me get this right... GOD new Pharaohs heart was bad and that he was never going to give in, so GOD knowing this even before Pharaoh was born was not going to save him, so he hardened his heart even more and used him as an example for us to learn from ? Hence your quote: he saves even if it's through the condemnation of others who are already lost.

 

[HammerStone]

Not at all, I never said anything about before Pharaoh's birth. My point is merely that God will harden an already hard heart. The only soul that is already lost is Satan's, and that's actually what I meant by that quote. Hence this:

That's not to deny that anyone can repent, even Pharaoh and even Judas. I wouldn't say that you couldn't meet either in heaven someday, because God alone judges. As such, I willfully submit to an intelligent and benevolent Creator that formed me, gave me a letter, and strengthens me on a daily basis.

I guess my point is that if one believes in God as...well...God, then we have to trust that there is a reason God hardened a heart. Some would argue that God knows everything that will happen, but that's just not quite the case. God can discern the heart and in this knowledge he can tell where we are going. God knew Pharaoh would not relent for a true and good reason, so he further hardened his heart to make an example both for Israel and all of God's children.

 

[logabe]

I would like to answer your question soyou can understand the purpose of theAlmighty. Romans 9:9-13, 9 For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.10 And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Paul takes the case of Jacob and Esau as prime examples of God's Election, showing that God chose them BEFORE either of them had done either good or evil. Keep in mind that these are Paul's examples to prove the doctrine; they are not exceptions to the rule. So Esau was NOT rejected on the basis of his evil works, nor was Jacob elected on account of any good works. God is said to have chosen them before birth in order to prove to us that it was NOT "of works" but only "of Him that calleth." Election therefore means that God is causing, and man is responding to that causal force. This is so clear that we cannot deviate from the plain meaning without doing cartwheels in a swamp. The big objection, both for the Greeks and for the Sadducees, was that of maintaining God's justice. Paul was well aware of this, and so he continues in Romans 9: 14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. Here Paul goes into further detail, though he does not really answer the question of God's justice. Instead, he quotes another Bible story to prove that election determines men's actions. Men may have what they thinkis "free will," but in reality it is a coerced will. Because Pharaoh had been raised up to glorify God as a vessel of dishonour (9:21), his "free will" was hardly free. God's will was higher and prior to Pharaoh's. Before Pharaoh was even born, God had determined the purpose of his life. It was to glorify God by providing a backdrop for Moses, who was the corresponding vessel of mercy. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Yes, that is precisely most people's objection. In fact, there would be no objection at all if Paul had only been teaching that God "foreknew" all things. If God had made Esau and Pharaoh into vessels of dishonor on the grounds that He "knew beforehand" how they would turn out, then why would anyone object to Paul's teaching? The very fact that Paul well understood the objection and yet did NOT use the term "foreknew" (Greek: proginosko) compels us to believe the obvious-he meant predestination. That is, God had determined these events beforehand. We must understand that Paul had already laid the basis for God's justice in Romans five, where he plainly taught that God planned to save all of mankind in the end. If God had indeed predestined most of humanity to burn in an eternal fire, then yes, indeed, God would be unjust. Only a few with strong stomachs have ever believed this, among whom are Augustine and Calvin. Yet for the majority of men, this has been unacceptable, and other solutions were needed. Unfortunately, instead of questioning the Achan Doctrine of eternal torment, most doubted the doctrine of election and predestination! In Romans 8 we are told that God Himself subjected all creation to futility, not so that it would be destroyed, but so that He would receive glory and praise at its jubilee. Most people object to the doctrine of predestination because it is linked to the idea that God has predestinated most of humanity to burn in hell forever. They object to the injustice attributed to God. Such people are to be commended for not wanting to believe in such an unjust God. However, the God of the Bible has merely predestinated certain ones to be saved FIRST. The others are predestinated to be saved LATER. Meanwhile, there is much "futility" in creation. God subjected creation to futility by His own will. It was a judgment of God upon all creation because of Adam's sin. Yet He did so with a good purpose in mind, because God's judgments are remedial and corrective. Through discipline, God will bring all things to Himself. That which we call evil, God has the power to turn into good, even as Romans 8:28 says, 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. Logabe

 

[musicworld]

Election determines

men's actions. Men may have what they thinkis "free will," but in reality it is a coerced will. Because Pharaoh had been raised up to glorify God as a vessel of dishonour his "free will" was hardly free. God's will was higher and prior to Pharaoh's. Before Pharaoh was even born, God had determined the purpose of his life. It was to glorify God

Are you saying that GOD doesn't give free will to his creations to choose between good or evil, but that he has already chosen it for us, meaning some will have salvation and some won't despite whether their deeds were good or evil?

 

[HammerStone]

One obvious major flaw with predestination is that the Bible never actually declares it for those on the bad side:

Ephesians 1:5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Romans 11:2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Those are both of the occurrences of the term predestinated and foreknew. Now I certainly realize that there are other verses that relate to this subject, but I'll leave that as a homework assignment for ya'll to check up on me.To get to the point, God never says He predestinated anyone to hell. The presence of the positive does not imply the negative. Esau or perhaps even Ishmael is the quick reply to that statement I just made, but those are terrible examples. God hated Esau from the womb, but he was not predestinated to anything. There is a reason God knows whom he can trust, and it's contained in the term heart-knower (amongst others). However, there is a reason he can trust certain folks and has put them in positions where much is required and given.Out of respect for the OP, I will not go into that here. Just put it on the shelf, but the reason relates quite specifically to the foundation of this world, katabole in the Gr.

 

[logabe]

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I'm saying depending on the circumstance... Godallows you to choose, which is a far cry from a "freewill". We must understand the difference and makethe proper ajustments needed to clearly see the purpose and the plan of God. Someone had to be a Judas and someone had to be an Esau in order tofulfill the purpose that God had predestinated and sowhen the appointed time came... what God spoke in the beginning, He Elected individuals to fulfill that purpose. Some are Elected as a vessel of honor but others areElected as vessels of dishonor that the Word might befulfilled in it's appointed time. Logabe

 

[logabe]

When we learn to view all things through the eyes of God, then will we truly know Him. The true knowledge of God begins with a recognition of His sovereignty. The more we know Him, the more sovereign He seems to be. The less we know Him, the more sovereign man seems to be. In Paul's writings, he confirms the doctrine of election. In Ephesians 1:4-6, 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Even as Jacob was elected before his birth, that God's choice might stand not of works-so also were we chosen in Him "before the foundation of the world." We are predestinated and chosen "according to the kind intention of His will" (vs. 5) to be saved first and bring the nations to Christ. Paul says it again in 2 Timothy 1:9, 9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, Paul also writes in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 13 "God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation." If we had not been chosen, God may have decreed that we should be born in an idolatrous nation, where the name of Christ had never been heard. If so, our chances of being Christians today would be somewhere between slim and nil. No matter how we slice it, ourcultural and religious background, the time and place we are born, and many other factors all make it easy or difficult to find Christ. These are factors outside of our control, determined by the sovereignty of God alone. From a human viewpoint, this is simply not fair, especially if it results in eternal torment for 99% of mankind. When any man receives enlightenment of the Truth, it is an act of God. Paul learned this by personal experience, and such a dramatic event had a tremendous impact upon his view of God's election. We must keep this in mind as we read Romans 9, for Paul wrote this chapter as a result of his own personal experience. Some other Scriptures reflecting this are: Matt. 11:27, 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]. 2nd Tim. 2:25, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledgingof the truth; Rom. 2:4, 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? John 6:37, 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. John 6:44, 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 1:13, 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Laws are given specifically for the purpose of coercion. On earth, man's will has not been free since the first enforceable law was set down. Whether this was by governmental decree to citizens or simply by a father's household rule to restrain his children, all laws coerce the will of men into a behavior mold. This is meant to limit free will. The authority God has given to men on earth is limited by God's sovereignty. Sovereignty is self-derived power; authority is authorized by a higher power and is therefore limited and subjected by that power. Man does not have sovereignty. Therefore, his authority is limited, and his liability for his actions are limited according to his level of authority. God disciplines men and judges them according to their level of authority. God holds Himself liable in the highest sense, because He alone is sovereign. As creator, He is ultimately responsible for His creation and its actions. It was therefore built into the plan of God from the beginning that Jesus Christ would come to die for the sins of the world. God held Himself liable for our sins and for the sins of the whole world. In our daily lives we must act as if we have total free will. And yet, if we are to understand the mind of God, we are to see God in all things. The real question is that of liability for sin at the great judgment. Our liability is limited by the limited nature of our authority. Only unlimited authority can be judged with unlimited liability. This is the justice and mercy of God. What began in Eden shall end at the Great White Throne. Logabe

 

[musicworld]

I'm saying depending on the circumstance... Godallows you to choose, which is a far cry from a "freewill". We must understand the difference and makethe proper ajustments needed to clearly see the purpose and the plan of God.

I find you very confusing logabe, in that your words about salvation contradict on one another, i think it's pretty simple in that if one believes in GOD from the heart and worships him in doing his will, you will be saved. Predestination was only called upon a select few to fulfill Gods plan of salvation which is written in his book, the rest of us are here under trial and test to make a decision.

 

[logabe]

Predestination was only called upon a select few to fulfill Gods plan of salvation which is written in his book, the rest of us are here under trial and test to make a decision.

[/COLOR]

Yeah...that's a pretty general statement andthat's not the question either. The question that confuses you is Romans 9:18-19, whichconfuses a lot of Christians. It's about God'sjustice. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Paul was asking a very good question becausethis kinda makes God look unjust. I think you were asking the same question and I was tryingto explain it to you. In the Greek language there are two words that we must look at carefully: dunamis and exousia. The word dunamis means "inherent power," that is, power that is self-derived. A king is said to have dunamis (power) OVER others. To his subjects, the king has power. But in relation to God (a higher Power), the king operates on exousia (authority). In the family, a husband has power over the wife, but in relation to God the husband only exercises authority under God. It is all relative. Power, or sovereignty, is what one sees when he looks up from his own level of authority. Every man exercises power over some area of life, and yet that same power is only authority under a higher power. Every man exercises authority under a succession of higher authorities, until finally one reaches God Himself, the ultimate and only true sovereign Power of the universe. In our discussion of man's will, I was trying to simplify things by ignoring all positions of power or authority except where God is the sovereign Power (dunamis), and man in general exercises authority (exousia) under God. It all began is Genesis 1:26. 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. This is the beginning of all delegated authority on earth in its primal form. Later, as men began to multiply, he formed more layers of government, each with a different level of authority. Each new authority served to limit man's "free will" further, for now he was bound by more and more laws to restrain him from injuring his neighbor. His will was increasingly coerced by law. That's what I was trying to explain to you, Ifyou don't understand your will is coerced by the Law, then your're not going to understandRomans 9. We have been taught for generationsthat we have a total "free will", but in essence,we have a coerced will and thank God for that. Logabe

 

[musicworld]

Logabe, thank you for all your information regarding this topic, Romans 9: 18-19 i understand it more clearly now.


GOD bless
Musicworld.

 

[Adstar]

We don't want to acknowledge that some people are just bad apples, plain and simple, God doesn't have that problem, because he discerns the heart. He knows where you are going, and the path we'll take.

God has shown that He knows people even before they where born. Yes God knew Pharoah would reject His will so He chose to use Him for His purpose.

We don't want to acknowledge that some people are just bad apples, plain and simple, God doesn't have that problem, because he discerns the heart. He knows where you are going, and the path we'll take.

In the same vein that God can give mercy, he can harden.

God is entirely righteous, his actions are not anything but righteous. He does not play, he saves even if it's through the condemnation of others who are already lost.

So let me get this right... GOD new Pharaohs heart was bad and that he was never going to give in, so GOD knowing this even before Pharaoh was born was not going to save him, so he hardened his heart even more and used him as an example for us to learn from ?

Hence your quote: he saves even if it's through the condemnation of others who are already lost.

In the same vein that God can give mercy, he can harden.

God is entirely righteous, his actions are not anything but righteous. He does not play, he saves even if it's through the condemnation of others who are already lost.

So let me get this right... GOD new Pharaohs heart was bad and that he was never going to give in, so GOD knowing this even before Pharaoh was born was not going to save him, so he hardened his heart even more and used him as an example for us to learn from ?

Hence your quote: he saves even if it's through the condemnation of others who are already lost.

God has revealed that He knows people even before they are born. This is not because we pre-exists before birth but because God has forknowledge of our lives. God knew Pharoah before he was born just as he knew the Prophet Jeremiah before he was born:

God said to Jeramiah:

Jeremiah 1
4 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying:
5 “ Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

So Yes God did not that Paroah would never follow Him so therefore decided to use him as part of His eternal plan.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Christina]

Let me try that again

your posts seems a little contradictory Adstar
This is not because we pre-exists...God knew Pharoah before he was born ??

You cant have it both ways

God says he fore knew us some are predestined he doesnt just know our lives we have free will ....

All souls were created at the same time ..true we didnt exist in flesh bodies before
but we did exist in spirit incorruptible bodies the same ones we will again take on at Christs second coming.
1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This is where he foreknows us from he knows our spirit selves ..

there is nothing new under the sun what was is what will be God states it as fact
Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it [is that] which shall be; and that which is done [is] that which shall be done: and [there is] no new [thing] under the sun.

We were spirit incorruptible bodies..... we were born into flesh bodies....we will return to spirit incorruptible bodies

 

[whirlwind]

There is a difference in the "elect" and those of "free will." Why?
​

• Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: ​

​

There we're shown God doesn't arbitrarily select one to salvation and the other to perish...so why are some of us born as an elect and some not?​

​

At our physical death our soul/spirit steps out. This is the same soul/spirit that has been from the beginning...in the previous age, before [Genesis 1:2]. The same soul/spirit that is in the next age. In that first age Satan was loved by God but he rebelled. At his rebellion many of God's children followed him. Those that are born into our flesh lives as one of His elect are one of those that remained faithful to God. Those that didn't are of "free will." They must choose the right path in this age, this flesh life.
​

• Romans 8:29-30 for whom He did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.​
• ​
• Ephesians 1:4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:​

The elect are His servants and as they are already justified He can and does lead them to do His will. His will being the salvation of His other children, those of free will. We are fed His Word by the Spirit and take that bread to others.


Remember….Satan was already in his fallen state when we are first introduced to him in the garden. To those that don’t believe there was a previous age…when did that event take place?

 

[Adstar]

Let me try that again

your posts seems a little contradictory Adstar
This is not because we pre-exists...God knew Pharoah before he was born ??

You cant have it both ways

Well to human thinking it cannot be both ways. But with God this is possible.

God says he fore knew us some are predestined he doesnt just know our lives we have free will ....

Yes We have free will but He already knows what our own free will shall decide in relation to His will. He knew this even before we where born because as He says He knows the beginning and the end.

All souls were created at the same time ..true we didnt exist in flesh bodies before
but we did exist in spirit incorruptible bodies the same ones we will again take on at Christs second coming.

Where is your biblical support for such a belief?

1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This is where he foreknows us from he knows our spirit selves ..

This scripture is talking about a future event it does not confirm a belief in pre-existence.

there is nothing new under the sun what was is what will be God states it as fact
Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it [is that] which shall be; and that which is done [is] that which shall be done: and [there is] no new [thing] under the sun.

This just says that there is nothing new to God. He knows everything.

We were spirit incorruptible bodies..... we were born into flesh bodies....we will return to spirit incorruptible bodies.

Once again where is your clear scriptural support for this belief?



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Christina]

With all due respect Adstar where is your biblical proof ??
All I see is your opinion of what scripture says
why is it more right than mine ?

I gave you scripture but you chose to interrupt it your way
... Im only wrong in your opinion not scripture

Yes 1 Cor. 15 is a future event I said that.... but under the sun is on earth not heaven and it doesn't mean what you say ...
as it says It happened before it will happen again right here on earth under the sun

And as others here have pointed out we did exist before our flesh bodies and that is where God fore knew us from before birth ...
foreknew means he knew us before ...not just that he knows all our future actions as you chose to interpt it ...
that's strictly your own interptation your entitled to have it
I just dont believe thats what the words mean nor what it says

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Ah,, the old Predestination debate. It's so easy to see both sides of this deal. I'll mention what I usually mention about this subject.

Firstly,, the confusion about this with many people stems from fear. Fear that maybe just as Judas, God chose us for a vessel of dishonor, and are serving a purpose to lead others to Him, yet in the mean time are headed for our own destruction and damnation.

Well, that's a lie straight from the pits of hell. That's what devils wisper in our ears, "God didn't choose you! You're believing for nothing, just wait and see!" It's the same old battle, and the same old lies.

And, not to give all the credit to devils either,,,, Our own insecurities and doubts play a huge role in this too.

Now we look and read these seemingly harsh words. And some argue that God chose between Jacob and Esau before either had done good or bad. They use that as the argument against free will. And, use Pauls argument also. Let's look a little closer at this.

In the first place, people try to explain this and quote the verses, yet leave out an explaination of "Who can know the mind of God?" also, to imply that God chose them before they had done anything implies that God can't see the future. Don't be so surprised, if you look back more towards the calvinistic doctrine, you'll see that it's believed that God can't see the future. It would have to be that way if Election was what we as humans see election.

But, if we study and read God's choice in his election of Jacob was a far wiser chose than an election of Esau. Even though Jacob had his sins, Esau was far worse, and was not an honorable man throughout his life. Some can blame that on jealousy, and that if he were chosen then he wouldn't have acted that way. But we can see Jealousy eating at his heart. Rather than being supportive of his brother, and honoring him we see him plotting against him. We see Esau being irresponsible, even the offerings Esau left were not of faith. Jacobs offerings were counted because they were of faith. Jus some small examples.

Now, on to "Those He foreknew he predestined to become the sons of God",,, why do we argue about a single word? Foreknew.

Strongs Greek 4267 Forknown: To know beforehand, ie. foresee: foreknow, foreordain, know, know before.

So, God knew before hand, before anyone had done good or bad. So, before Esau and Jacob were born, God knew them, knew their hearts, and their futures.

Pauls argument of, "what if" as in God chosing to show his glory and mercy through the vessels of wrath,,, Is a case of,, "Why did God create these beings knowing that they would be damned, and if God knew, then why is it their fault?" So, we see an explaination of why, But, even so,,, as SwampFox said,,, There's no indication that anyone is chosen for death and destruction.

Pharoh could've repented at any time, but refused to do so. Same with Judas, he didn't have to commit suicide, he could've repented, just as some of the soldiers who crucified Jesus did.

Mostly this all seems to imply more of a "free will" in that, those who chose to do evil, are not chosen. This goes with what Swamp Fox said,," So the case here is that God is certainly not playing. Remember that God gave mercy to whomsoever will believe despite our unworthy "

While we're still unworthy of ourselves, and since we were chosen before birth, it still makes God's election soverign and the choice still his. Because we all sin, and can't take away any of them, God still shows mercy on us.

Think of it this way,,, If you know a brick will never be able to read, would you try to teach it?

(edited to add)

Another thing to consider is, "God is not willing that anyone should perish, but all come to repentence" If you take people being chosen for destruction, that would nulify that scripture, and thus make God a liar.

Yet even more to consider is this,, God CHOSE some to be apostles, some to be teachers, some to be prophets, etc, etc,, could it be possible that some are chosen to believe from birth and thus predestined to be followers, while some were not chosen from birth, yet will be lead by those who were chosen?

 

[Nomad]

Don't be so surprised, if you look back more towards the calvinistic doctrine, you'll see that it's believed that God can't see the future.

This is incorrect. The denial of God's foreknowledge is the province of Open Theism and Process Theology, neither of which have anything to do with Calvinism. We Calvinists affirm God's foreknowledge because the Bible teaches as much. We deny that anyone is elect based on foreseen actions or faith. Here is what God foreknows or foresees with regard to every son and daughter of Adam:

Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

So what is the remedy for mankind's Total Inability? Faith and repentence must be given those who receive salvation. This gift of God is the heart of regeneration. For example:

Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."


Phi 1:29 because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf. . .

Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

2Ti 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth...

 

[Adstar]

With all due respect Adstar where is your biblical proof ??
All I see is your opinion of what scripture says
why is it more right than mine ?

I gave you scripture but you chose to interrupt it your way
... Im only wrong in your opinion not scripture

It's not about us. It is not about a compertition of pride as in who has interprited the scriptures correctly. It,s about what is right and wrong.

And if i am only giving my opinion. then everything i say can be discounted as the thoughts of men.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days