What happened to Enoch? Would love some input on this.

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

The holy city ..

There are no verses in the Revelation where "Babylon the Great", or the city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt", or the cities of the nations that fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out, are called "the holy city",

but the Revelation calls New Jerusalem "the holy city" three times: Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; and Revelation 22:19.

I doubt whether resurrected saints entered the city called Jerusalem which almost everyone seems to assume is the case. The only verses in the New Testament where a reference is made to the "holy city" are Matthew 4:5; Matthew 27:53; and then in the Revelation.

What happens between death and the resurrection of the body from the dead, according to the Bible?

The following "places" are mentioned in various books of the New Testament:-

1. haides (Hebrew: sheol) refers to the abode of departed souls (Mat.11:23; Mat.16:18; Luke 10:15; Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27 & 31; 1 Cor.15:55; Rev.1:18; Rev.6:8; Rev.20: 13-14).

2. tartaróō (tartaros/tartarus) refers to an abyss or bottomless pit in haides (II Peter 2:4).

3. geena (Hebrew gehenna, the valley of Hinnom) is the word that Jesus used as a symbol of everlasting destruction (every time He spoke of everlasting destruction). It equates to the 2nd death | the lake of fire written about in the Revelation (Mat.5:22, 29 & 30 | Mark 9:43, 45 & 47; Mat.10:28; Mat.18:9; Mat.23:15 & 33; Luke 12:5; James 3:6).

Paul taught that all who dwell in Christ are already spiritually in heaven, where He is:

"(God) hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6).

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3).

Jesus promised the following reality for those who believe in Him: "Yet a little while and the world does not see Me any more. But you see Me. Because I live, you shall live also. At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (John 14:19-20).

"Dwell in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you dwell in Me." (John 15:4).

HADES

So the souls that become separated from their bodies and die "in Christ" are with Him where He is, according to the above verses, but hades is where the rest of souls are - and the greatest biblical evidence that this "place" called hades actually exists and is populated by souls who are both self-aware and aware of their surroundings, consists in the fact that Jesus descended into sheol/hades (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:27, 31), where He proclaimed or heralded (Greek: kērýssō) the gospel to certain souls who were imprisoned there (1 Peter 3:18-20).

13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hades delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.
14 And death and hades were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire. --Revelation 20

TARTAROS

In ancient Greek mythology, tartarus or tartaros was the place where the Titans (gods) were imprisoned after a war in which they were overthrown by the Olympian gods.

The Strongs Greek Dictionary informs us that tartaroo is the deepest abyss in hades:

[StrongsGreek] 05020
TARTARO/W ταρταρόω tartaróō tar-tar-o'-o from Τάρταρος Tártaros, (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.

In the Bible, the word tartaroo is used only once (2 Peter 2:4); and it seems to refer to an abyss or bottomless pit where Peter stated that angels who sinned are bound.

Proverbs 15:11
"Sheol and destruction ['ăbaddôn] are before Jehovah, Surely also the hearts of the sons of men."

'ăbaddôn: See also Revelation 9:11:
"And they had a king over them, the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in Greek his name is Apollyon."

13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hades delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.
14 And death and hades were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire. --Revelation 20

HEAVEN

The place where Jesus ascended to cannot be any part of sheol or hades or gehenna because it's a place of unapproachable light:

For God in His own time will reveal who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in light which cannot be approached, whom no one of men have seen, nor can see; to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen. -- 1 Timothy 6:15-16

We cannot see God the Father but Jesus has made Him known and Jesus is seated with Him on His throne, at His right hand.

ENOCH

The Bible doesn't tell us so we can only guess where he went. Possibly to "Abraham's bosom", a place separated by a chasm from the rest of Hades, that seems to have existed until the resurrection and ascension of Jesus.​

Sigh!

First I thank you for the list. I had completely forgotten all about TARTAROS.. I am usually stuck in Sheol... LOL

I say you are spot on with "Possibly to "Abraham's bosom", a place separated by a chasm from the rest of Hades, that seems to have existed until the resurrection and ascension of Jesus."

I had said... Matthew 27:52-53 says that when the temple veil was torn, the tombs were opened and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

I dont care a whit what Rev says...

The interlinear says they entered into the holy city so if the Koine Greek people got Mathew wrong.. can't blame the translators since then.

There either were dead people arising at the crucifixion and the veil being torn... or Mathew 27: 52-53 was a simple allegory of future expectations for the faithful because the veil is certainly definitive that something new would be afoot. If it was as allegory of the future then your catch of ".New Jerusalem "the holy city"" also is spot on

 

[rwb]

I had said... Matthew 27:52-53 says that when the temple veil was torn, the tombs were opened and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

I dont care a whit what Rev says...

The interlinear says they entered into the holy city so if the Koine Greek people got Mathew wrong.. can't blame the translators since then.

There either were dead people arising at the crucifixion and the veil being torn... or Mathew 27: 52-53 was a simple allegory of future expectations for the faithful because the veil is certainly definitive that something new would be afoot. If it was as allegory of the future then your catch of ".New Jerusalem "the holy city"" also is spot on

What translation are you using? I present three translations that do not say "appeared to many PEOPLE". Why does that matter? Because the holy city that was Israel of Old, ceased being a holy city when Christ came and cursed the city and it was left desolate. (Mt 23:37-38) They went into the holy city, new Jerusalem, Jerusalem above, heavenly Jerusalem, not when the veil was torn, but after Christ was risen from the dead. And the many these saints appeared to are the heavenly hosts, not "people", but spiritual beings.

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Matthew 27:52-53 (YLT) and the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who have fallen asleep, arose, and having come forth out of the tombs after his rising, they went into the holy city, and appeared to many.

Matthew 27:52-53 (WEB) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.

 

[JunChosen]

Enoch could not have ascended up to heaven before Christ defeated death by His cross and resurrection.

Of course he could. Revelation 13:8 reads:

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Enoch did not [see] death, in the same way no faithful saint shall.

You are right, of course. When a saved person die he goes to be with God.
2 Corinthians 5:8.

We either believe what is written as the Word of God by faith or live in doubt about the Bible we have, and potentially tossed about by every new wind of doctrine that comes along.

I agree.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

What translation are you using? I present three translations that do not say "appeared to many PEOPLE". Why does that matter? Because the holy city that was Israel of Old, ceased being a holy city when Christ came and cursed the city and it was left desolate. (Mt 23:37-38) They went into the holy city, new Jerusalem, Jerusalem above, heavenly Jerusalem, not when the veil was torn, but after Christ was risen from the dead. And the many these saints appeared to are the heavenly hosts, not "people", but spiritual beings.

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Matthew 27:52-53 (YLT) and the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who have fallen asleep, arose, and having come forth out of the tombs after his rising, they went into the holy city, and appeared to many.

Matthew 27:52-53 (WEB) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.

I do not dispute that what you say to be true... "ceased being a holy city when Christ came"
But Mathew 27:53 presented by Bible Hub says the following.

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people. New Living Translation They left the cemetery after Jesus’ resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people. English Standard Version and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Berean Standard Bible After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people. Berean Literal Bible And having gone forth out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many. King James Bible And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. New King James Version and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. New American Standard Bible and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many. NASB 1995 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. NASB 1977 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. Legacy Standard Bible and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. Amplified Bible and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered the holy city (Jerusalem) and appeared to many people. Christian Standard Bible And they came out of the tombs after his resurrection, entered the holy city, and appeared to many. Holman Christian Standard Bible And they came out of the tombs after His resurrection, entered the holy city, and appeared to many. American Standard Version and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many. Aramaic Bible in Plain English And they came out, and after his resurrection, they entered the Holy City, and they appeared to many. Contemporary English Version They left their graves, and after Jesus had risen to life, they went into the holy city, where they were seen by many people. Douay-Rheims Bible And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city, and appeared to many. English Revised Version and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many. GOD'S WORD® Translation They came out of the tombs after he had come back to life, and they went into the holy city where they appeared to many people. Good News Translation They left the graves, and after Jesus rose from death, they went into the Holy City, where many people saw them. International Standard Version After his resurrection, they came out of their tombs, went into the Holy City, and appeared to many people. Literal Standard Version and having come forth out of the tombs after His rising, they went into the holy city, and appeared to many. Majority Standard Bible After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people. New American Bible And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many. NET Bible (They came out of the tombs after his resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.) New Revised Standard Version After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many. New Heart English Bible and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many. Webster's Bible Translation And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared to many. Weymouth New Testament And coming out of their tombs after Christ's resurrection they entered the holy city and showed themselves to many. World English Bible and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many. Young's Literal Translation and having come forth out of the tombs after his rising, they went into the holy city, and appeared to many.

So while we have more that says appeared to many without people... I would naturally assume it would have been many "PEOPLE" and not many ????? sheep......

I cannot say I favor a translation, so I do not know which I would have used.

I usually Bible Hub single verses to see if there is a difference in suggested meaning by words.

I try, as I can, unless I am in a rush, to avoid King Jimmy's translations....More often or not
if I do a quick online search KJV pops up.

The other I try to avoid is NIV.... even though it is touted for accuracy.

 

[rwb]

Of course he could. Revelation 13:8 reads:

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

You take the Covenant promise ordained from the foundation of the world through the Lamb slain to be fulfilled from the foundation of the world? It was through promise that Old Covenant faithful saints believing upon hearing of the Savior/Messiah were saved by grace before He came. However it was not as a Lamb slain that Jesus' blood must be shed. He had to literally take on human flesh, and shed human blood to be the substitutionary sacrifice for humans that believe in Him. Christ did not do this until He became man, lived a sinless life, gave His life as atonement for sin, resurrected from the dead, and finally ascended to heaven.

You are right, of course. When a saved person die he goes to be with God.
2 Corinthians 5:8.

2 Corinthians 5:8 (KJV) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul could say this because he lived AFTER the cross, resurrection and ascension of Christ.

 

[rwb]

I do not dispute that what you say to be true... "ceased being a holy city when Christ came"
But Mathew 27:53 presented by Bible Hub says the following.

​

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people. New Living Translation They left the cemetery after Jesus’ resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people. English Standard Version and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Berean Standard Bible After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people. Berean Literal Bible And having gone forth out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many. King James Bible And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. New King James Version and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. New American Standard Bible and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many. NASB 1995 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. NASB 1977 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. Legacy Standard Bible and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. Amplified Bible and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered the holy city (Jerusalem) and appeared to many people. Christian Standard Bible And they came out of the tombs after his resurrection, entered the holy city, and appeared to many. Holman Christian Standard Bible And they came out of the tombs after His resurrection, entered the holy city, and appeared to many. American Standard Version and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many. Aramaic Bible in Plain English And they came out, and after his resurrection, they entered the Holy City, and they appeared to many. Contemporary English Version They left their graves, and after Jesus had risen to life, they went into the holy city, where they were seen by many people. Douay-Rheims Bible And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city, and appeared to many. English Revised Version and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many. GOD'S WORD® Translation They came out of the tombs after he had come back to life, and they went into the holy city where they appeared to many people. Good News Translation They left the graves, and after Jesus rose from death, they went into the Holy City, where many people saw them. International Standard Version After his resurrection, they came out of their tombs, went into the Holy City, and appeared to many people. Literal Standard Version and having come forth out of the tombs after His rising, they went into the holy city, and appeared to many. Majority Standard Bible After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people. New American Bible And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many. NET Bible (They came out of the tombs after his resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.) New Revised Standard Version After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many. New Heart English Bible and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many. Webster's Bible Translation And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared to many. Weymouth New Testament And coming out of their tombs after Christ's resurrection they entered the holy city and showed themselves to many. World English Bible and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many. Young's Literal Translation and having come forth out of the tombs after his rising, they went into the holy city, and appeared to many.

So while we have more that says appeared to many without people... I would naturally assume it would have been many "PEOPLE" and not many ????? sheep......

I cannot say I favor a translation, so I do not know which I would have used.

I usually Bible Hub single verses to see if there is a difference in suggested meaning by words.

I try, as I can, unless I am in a rush, to avoid King Jimmy's translations....More often or not
if I do a quick online search KJV pops up.

The other I try to avoid is NIV.... even though it is touted for accuracy.

Here is the Strong's Greek translation. I don't read Greek so you'll have to discern for yourself whether you believe 'people' belongs in the verse.

Matthew 27:53 (KJVSL) And καί came ἐξέρχομαι out of ἐκ the graves μνημεῖον after μετά his αὐτός resurrection ἔγερσις, and went εἰσέρχομαι into εἰς the holy ἅγιος city πόλις, and καί appeared ἐμφανίζω unto many πολύς.

Matthew 27:53 (TR) και εξελθοντες εκ των μνημειων μετα την εγερσιν αυτου εισηλθον εις την αγιαν πολιν και ενεφανισθησαν πολλοις

I do have a Concordant Version with a transliteration of the Greek, a revision from 1930. Whether or not it may be beneficial for you???

CV - "Now Jesus crying again with a loud voice lets out the spirit. And lo! the curtain of the temple is rent in two from above to the bottom and the earth quaked and the rocks are rent and the tombs were opened. And many bodies of the reposing saints were roused and coming out of the tombs after His rousing they entered into the holy city and were disclosed to many."

Transliteration beginning at vs 52.

and the memorial-vaults were-of-opened and many bodies of-the having been-reposed holy-ones were-roused and out-coming out of-the memorial-vaults after the rousing of-Him they-into-came into the holy city and are-in-appearing to many

My opinion - I believe the translations that add "people" into the verse may very well have done so through some bias. I am also of the opinion that the King James Version of Sacred Text is one of the most reliable translations available.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Here is the Strong's Greek translation. I don't read Greek so you'll have to discern for yourself whether you believe 'people' belongs in the verse.

Matthew 27:53 (KJVSL) And καί came ἐξέρχομαι out of ἐκ the graves μνημεῖον after μετά his αὐτός resurrection ἔγερσις, and went εἰσέρχομαι into εἰς the holy ἅγιος city πόλις, and καί appeared ἐμφανίζω unto many πολύς.

Matthew 27:53 (TR) και εξελθοντες εκ των μνημειων μετα την εγερσιν αυτου εισηλθον εις την αγιαν πολιν και ενεφανισθησαν πολλοις

I do have a Concordant Version with a transliteration of the Greek, a revision from 1930. Whether or not it may be beneficial for you???

CV - "Now Jesus crying again with a loud voice lets out the spirit. And lo! the curtain of the temple is rent in two from above to the bottom and the earth quaked and the rocks are rent and the tombs were opened. And many bodies of the reposing saints were roused and coming out of the tombs after His rousing they entered into the holy city and were disclosed to many."

Transliteration beginning at vs 52.

and the memorial-vaults were-of-opened and many bodies of-the having been-reposed holy-ones were-roused and out-coming out of-the memorial-vaults after the rousing of-Him they-into-came into the holy city and are-in-appearing to many

My opinion - I believe the translations that add "people" into the verse may very well have done so through some bias. I am also of the opinion that the King James Version of Sacred Text is one of the most reliable translations available.

First.

what does adding the word people to the verse do to alter its meaning?

Jimmy's ~ 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

What did they appear to????????????????????????????????????????????? Maybe their pets? Maybe their Rabbis?
Maybe their spouses? WHAT?????? IF they appeared to many that many certainly is not marbles.

They appeared....

I think it far more important , depending on your personal beliefs is to see how this might fit very well with
Jesus being 3days and 3 nights ... or a portion there of... in upper Sheole releasing those who were waiting there.
We are told we die and the body rots. But our soul and spirit continue on. We are told that the place for the dead... from OT times was Sheol. Jesus gave us the story of Lazarus and the rich man. We are told that at some point in the future all bodies... dead shall be called out of the grave and be given new, glorified bodies and the suggestion is that our souls and spirits will be reunited with us then.

I believe that once Jesus completed the crucifixion for us, that set into motion those who were dead... and yes, rotting, to come out of their graves and then some something saw many of them... but that while Jesus was in Sheol (upper) those that he was ministering to and freeing were reunited with their mortal bodies ...some of which being those appearing after the torn veil and now unified in glorified bodies.

DO I HAVE PROOF?

NOT YET but it is a worthy study and hopefully sooner then later I can get to that

 

[Brakelite]

UWe can have what Enoch had. We can have Christ as our constant companion. Enoch walked with God, and when assailed by the tempter, he could talk with God about it. He had no “It is written” as we have, but he had a knowledge of his heavenly Companion. Don't confuse the Enoch born to Cain, who built the first city. The Enoch born of the line of Seth, he made God his Counsellor, and was closely bound up with Jesus. And Enoch was honored in this course. He was translated to heaven without seeing death. And those who will be translated at the close of time, will be those who commune with God on earth. Those who make manifest that their life is hid with Christ in God will ever be representing Him in all their life-practices. Selfishness will be cut out by the roots.

 

[Aunty Jane]

What translation are you using? I present three translations that do not say "appeared to many PEOPLE". Why does that matter? Because the holy city that was Israel of Old, ceased being a holy city when Christ came and cursed the city and it was left desolate. (Mt 23:37-38) They went into the holy city, new Jerusalem, Jerusalem above, heavenly Jerusalem, not when the veil was torn, but after Christ was risen from the dead. And the many these saints appeared to are the heavenly hosts, not "people", but spiritual beings.

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Matthew 27:52-53 (YLT) and the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who have fallen asleep, arose, and having come forth out of the tombs after his rising, they went into the holy city, and appeared to many.

Matthew 27:52-53 (WEB) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.

This is an event which is not even mentioned in the other gospel accounts….would not such a momentous occasion be recorded by all of them? If not, why not?

The account says that “the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.”—Common Bible.

But if a resurrection of the saints occurred at the time when Jesus died, (as this and other translations suggest), wouldn’t God have resurrected these ones after Jesus’ own resurrection, on the third day after this? Why would they leave their tombs 3 days earlier than Jesus? This rising of the dead saints occurred after an earthquake….so doesn’t this explain why this might be talking about something entirely different to what most people think this scripture says?

We need to ask….why would God resurrect such “saints” or “holy ones” at this time, since Jesus was to be “the firstborn from the dead”? (Col 1:18; 1 Cor 15:20) Also, it was during Christ’s future presence that anointed Christians or “holy ones” were to share in the “first resurrection”. (1 Thess 3:13; 4:14-17; Rev 20:5-6)

Strictly speaking, the account does not say that the “bodies” came to life. It merely says that they were raised up or thrown out of the tombs by the earthquake. A similar thing happened in the town of Sonson in Colombia in 1962. El Tiempo (July 31, 1962) reported: “Two hundred corpses in the cemetery of this town were thrown out of their tombs by the violent earth tremor.” Persons passing by or through that cemetery saw the corpses, and, as a result, many of the people in Sonson had to go out and rebury their dead relatives.

Again if Jesus was to be “the firstborn of the dead” why were these ones raised before he was?

What does it mean in 1 Thess 4:13-17…?
”But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.”

The “saints” were not to be raised until Christ’s return….Jesus returns with an archangel’s voice, not with God’s voice, and those “dead in Christ will rise first”. This was a future event…..has Christ returned already?
What does the Bible say?

 

[rwb]

This is an event which is not even mentioned in the other gospel accounts….would not such a momentous occasion be recorded by all of them? If not, why not?

This is one of the arguments I believe supports that what came out of the tombs were not physical bodies, but the spiritual body of believers, ascending spiritually to heaven with the Lord AFTER He was resurrected. And since they were not of physical flesh, they could not have gone into the Jerusalem on earth. I agree it would be such a momentous event that it would have been recorded if not in the Bible, at the very least by historians such as Josephus. The holy city they appeared to many in is Jerusalem from above, the heavenly city that is being spiritually built now as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the earth, and all who are born again of Christ's Spirit enter the Kingdom of God in heaven.

But if a resurrection of the saints occurred at the time when Jesus died, (as this and other translations suggest), wouldn’t God have resurrected these ones after Jesus’ own resurrection, on the third day after this? Why would they leave their tombs 3 days earlier than Jesus? This rising of the dead saints occurred after an earthquake….so doesn’t this explain why this might be talking about something entirely different to what most people think this scripture says?

There was no physical resurrection when Jesus died. The only resurrection mentioned is the resurrection of Christ, and we know that came three days after His cross. However, the Spirit that gave Jesus's body physical life, did leave His flesh and returned to the Father, the moment Christ died.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

While hanging on the cross Christ promised the repentant thief that today he would be with Him in paradise. The repentant thief lived after Christ gave His life an atonement for sin, so as spiritual body he ascended to heaven with the Spirit of Christ the moment Christ died, the spirit of the thief with the Spirit of Christ ascended to heaven. None who died in faith before the cross could go spiritual body to heaven before the cross. That's why it is written that before ascending physically to heaven, Christ first descended into the lower parts of the earth (grave/Abraham's bosom) to set the captives free, taking them alive to heaven a spiritual body of believers.

Luke 23:43 (KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

We need to ask….why would God resurrect such “saints” or “holy ones” at this time, since Jesus was to be “the firstborn from the dead”? (Col 1:18; 1 Cor 15:20) Also, it was during Christ’s future presence that anointed Christians or “holy ones” were to share in the “first resurrection”. (1 Thess 3:13; 4:14-17; Rev 20:5-6)

When we carefully read the passage we find that at the time Jesus died, the veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom, and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent, and the graves were opened. This is what the centurion saw that made him greatly fear, and acknowledge Jesus was the Son of God. Though the dead were spiritually aroused, we read they did not come out of the graves until AFTER the resurrection of Christ. Then they went into the holy city in heavenly Jerusalem and appeared to the all the hosts in heaven.

Matthew 27:50-54 (KJV) Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

This passage doesn't say how long it was after the resurrection of Christ before He and this living spiritual body of believers ascended to heaven. But Acts 1 tells us that Christ was physically seen ascending to heaven forty days later. All of these faithful saints of Old and the faithful saints since the advent of Christ had part in the resurrection of Christ spiritually the moment we are born again of His Spirit, and spiritually enter into the Kingdom of God. Christ, as you show, is the first resurrection of the dead and it is through partaking of His resurrection life and death that we too partake of the "first resurrection".

Strictly speaking, the account does not say that the “bodies” came to life. It merely says that they were raised up or thrown out of the tombs by the earthquake.

Exactly! It says only that the saints that slept arose, not resurrected. The bodies that arose were not physically resurrected to life again. That will not happen until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds that time give this earth shall be no longer. They arose a spiritual body of believers, still alive without physical form.

Again if Jesus was to be “the firstborn of the dead” why were these ones raised before he was?

Christ is the first to be bodily resurrected from the dead to never die again. That's why in life we must partake of Christ's resurrection by believing on Him. This is true for both Old Covenant faithful saints as well as New Covenant saints. The Old believed in Christ by looking for His coming as the Law and Prophets foretell. And the New look back in faith to Christ's finished work on the cross to make atonement for sin, and defeat death.

What does it mean in 1 Thess 4:13-17…?

The “saints” were not to be raised until Christ’s return….Jesus returns with an archangel’s voice, not with God’s voice, and those “dead in Christ will rise first”. This was a future event…..has Christ returned already?
What does the Bible say?

Those who sleep (have died) in Jesus "will God bring with Him". It is the spiritual body of believers in heaven that return with Christ. That's so they can be reunited with a resurrected immortal & incorruptible body of flesh to live with Christ forever on the new earth, returned once again to the way man was first created to be "very good." They are no longer the DEAD in Christ. They are the spiritually alive in Christ, who have physically died. But we cannot be complete living souls again until our body and spirit are reunited again, only this time forever.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Aunty Jane]

This is one of the arguments I believe supports that what came out of the tombs were not physical bodies, but the spiritual body of believers, ascending spiritually to heaven with the Lord AFTER He was resurrected. And since they were not of physical flesh, they could not have gone into the Jerusalem on earth. I agree it would be such a momentous event that it would have been recorded if not in the Bible, at the very least by historians such as Josephus. The holy city they appeared to many in is Jerusalem from above, the heavenly city that is being spiritually built now as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the earth, and all who are born again of Christ's Spirit enter the Kingdom of God in heaven.

Yet it says that they appeared to many.....to whom did they appear if they were in heaven? That is not what it says BTW....
In context, it says....Matt 27:50-54....
“50 Again Jesus called out with a loud voice and gave up his spirit.
(Mark’s account says...”But Jesus let out a loud cry and expired.”....
Luke’s says....”And Jesus called out with a loud voice and said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” After he said this, he expired.”
John’s says...”When he had received the sour wine, Jesus said: “It has been accomplished!” and bowing his head, he gave up his spirit.”)

51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52 Also the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many. 54 Now as for the centurion and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the other things that were happening, they became extremely frightened and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

This is speaking about the time of Jesus’ death. That is when the earthquake occurred.
Where does it say what you are suggesting ?

There was no physical resurrection when Jesus died. The only resurrection mentioned is the resurrection of Christ, and we know that came three days after His cross. However, the Spirit that gave Jesus's body physical life, did leave His flesh and returned to the Father, the moment Christ died.

Since the “spirit” in man is his breath, (remember what made Adam a “soul” was “the breath of life) so that is what Jesus gave up....he breathed his last breath and he died.
He wasn’t resurrected till three days later.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

There is no “ghost”....that is a horrid mistranslation.

While hanging on the cross Christ promised the repentant thief that today he would be with Him in paradise. The repentant thief lived after Christ gave His life an atonement for sin, so as spiritual body he ascended to heaven with the Spirit of Christ the moment Christ died, the spirit of the thief with the Spirit of Christ ascended to heaven. None who died in faith before the cross could go spiritual body to heaven before the cross. That's why it is written that before ascending physically to heaven, Christ first descended into the lower parts of the earth (grave/Abraham's bosom) to set the captives free, taking them alive to heaven a spiritual body of believers.

Oh dear.....these assumptions never seem to end.....you have invented a whole scenario based on what you want to believe...none of it is scriptural however. Please remember that Jesus was Jewish and so were all the Bible writers...they were all written from a Jewish viewpoint.
The thief who hung alongside Jesus was promised “paradise”, not heaven. Where was the first paradise?
What Jesus promised him was a resurrection back to life on an earth restored to a beautiful paradise....it was God’s first purpose.....and Jews had no belief in an afterlife. Their scripture never taught such a thing.

Luke 23:43 (KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Move the comma to after the word “today”....and see that it changes the whole meaning of what Jesus said to him. (a comma was never in the original writings because Greek has no punctuation) He made the promise that day, but Jesus was in his tomb for three days, so he could not have been with the thief in heaven that day at all. The man was paying his debt for the crimes he committed, so John 5:28-29 has him covered.

All of these faithful saints of Old and the faithful saints since the advent of Christ had part in the resurrection of Christ spiritually the moment we are born again of His Spirit, and spiritually enter into the Kingdom of God. Christ, as you show, is the first resurrection of the dead and it is through partaking of His resurrection life and death that we too partake of the "first resurrection".

Who is “we”? I do not believe that those who lived and died before Jesus ever had the hope of a heavenly resurrection...it was not a Jewish expectation. They looked forward to living under the rulership of God’s kingdom here on earth.

Exactly! It says only that the saints that slept arose, not resurrected. The bodies that arose were not physically resurrected to life again. That will not happen until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds that time give this earth shall be no longer. They arose a spiritual body of believers, still alive without physical form.

Again you are not saying what the Bible says, but reading so many things into the story that are simply not there. The resurrection of the saints does not take place until Christ’s return. Those “dead in Christ will rise first”....in spiritual bodies so as to enter the heavenly realm, which flesh and blood cannot do.

Who said that the “earth shall no longer be”? The earth is not going anywhere...it was created perfect. It is sinful and unrepentant mankind who will be removed from this earth..... permanently. (Psalm 104:5; Eccl 1:4)

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

This is one of the arguments I believe supports that what came out of the tombs were not physical bodies, but the spiritual body of believers, ascending spiritually to heaven with the Lord AFTER He was resurrected. And since they were not of physical flesh, they could not have gone into the Jerusalem on earth. I agree it would be such a momentous event that it would have been recorded if not in the Bible, at the very least by historians such as Josephus. The holy city they appeared to many in is Jerusalem from above, the heavenly city that is being spiritually built now as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the earth, and all who are born again of Christ's Spirit enter the Kingdom of God in heaven.



There was no physical resurrection when Jesus died. The only resurrection mentioned is the resurrection of Christ, and we know that came three days after His cross. However, the Spirit that gave Jesus's body physical life, did leave His flesh and returned to the Father, the moment Christ died.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

While hanging on the cross Christ promised the repentant thief that today he would be with Him in paradise. The repentant thief lived after Christ gave His life an atonement for sin, so as spiritual body he ascended to heaven with the Spirit of Christ the moment Christ died, the spirit of the thief with the Spirit of Christ ascended to heaven. None who died in faith before the cross could go spiritual body to heaven before the cross. That's why it is written that before ascending physically to heaven, Christ first descended into the lower parts of the earth (grave/Abraham's bosom) to set the captives free, taking them alive to heaven a spiritual body of believers.

Luke 23:43 (KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)



When we carefully read the passage we find that at the time Jesus died, the veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom, and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent, and the graves were opened. This is what the centurion saw that made him greatly fear, and acknowledge Jesus was the Son of God. Though the dead were spiritually aroused, we read they did not come out of the graves until AFTER the resurrection of Christ. Then they went into the holy city in heavenly Jerusalem and appeared to the all the hosts in heaven.

Matthew 27:50-54 (KJV) Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

This passage doesn't say how long it was after the resurrection of Christ before He and this living spiritual body of believers ascended to heaven. But Acts 1 tells us that Christ was physically seen ascending to heaven forty days later. All of these faithful saints of Old and the faithful saints since the advent of Christ had part in the resurrection of Christ spiritually the moment we are born again of His Spirit, and spiritually enter into the Kingdom of God. Christ, as you show, is the first resurrection of the dead and it is through partaking of His resurrection life and death that we too partake of the "first resurrection".



Exactly! It says only that the saints that slept arose, not resurrected. The bodies that arose were not physically resurrected to life again. That will not happen until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds that time give this earth shall be no longer. They arose a spiritual body of believers, still alive without physical form.



Christ is the first to be bodily resurrected from the dead to never die again. That's why in life we must partake of Christ's resurrection by believing on Him. This is true for both Old Covenant faithful saints as well as New Covenant saints. The Old believed in Christ by looking for His coming as the Law and Prophets foretell. And the New look back in faith to Christ's finished work on the cross to make atonement for sin, and defeat death.




Those who sleep (have died) in Jesus "will God bring with Him". It is the spiritual body of believers in heaven that return with Christ. That's so they can be reunited with a resurrected immortal & incorruptible body of flesh to live with Christ forever on the new earth, returned once again to the way man was first created to be "very good." They are no longer the DEAD in Christ. They are the spiritually alive in Christ, who have physically died. But we cannot be complete living souls again until our body and spirit are reunited again, only this time forever.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Please give an explanation of this that is written in the bible.

This is from King James... which many here seem to think is the only authority...

Matt 27:52

King James Bible
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

If these were spirits, what's with the bodies?

Matt 27:53

King James Bible
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

And they went to the city.... WHY?????????????????????????????????

and appeared unto many.... Uh oh... watch out Casper ... looks like they needed ghost busters. BUT seriously,
how could a spirit appear to many???????????

Then we have, once we move on from Matthew STILL IN KING JAMES...............................

Ecclesiastes 12:7

King James Bible
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

So there can be only conclusion.

Either you are correct in totally reinterpreting what that written word says... which means that the bible as we have known it is false testimony.... therefore worthy of being ignored....

OR the bible is correct but you twist things to fit your perception because you cannot comprehend what may have happened .

Either way is bad.

 

[rwb]

Yet it says that they appeared to many.....to whom did they appear if they were in heaven? That is not what it says BTW....
In context, it says....Matt 27:50-54....

What it says is that they appeared to many in the holy city. Where is the holy city, because after Christ is certain is not Jerusalem of this earth? They appeared to the multitude of heavenly hosts there.

Luke 2:12-14 (KJV) And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

This is speaking about the time of Jesus’ death. That is when the earthquake occurred.
Where does it say what you are suggesting ?

Read carefully, for it is written "Matthew 27:53 (KJV) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Since the “spirit” in man is his breath, (remember what made Adam a “soul” was “the breath of life) so that is what Jesus gave up....he breathed his last breath and he died.
He wasn’t resurrected till three days later.

While Jesus' body went into the tomb, He commended His spirit into the hands of His father. Like every other human being, Jesus, the God-Man's spirit returned to God after the death of His body. Ecc 12:7

Move the comma to after the word “today”....and see that it changes the whole meaning of what Jesus said to him. (a comma was never in the original writings because Greek has no punctuation) He made the promise that day, but Jesus was in his tomb for three days, so he could not have been with the thief in heaven that day at all. The man was paying his debt for the crimes he committed, so John 5:28-29 has him covered.

It would be very stupid of me to move the comma! Ignore the comma! It matters not! Why would it be necessary for Christ to say He was speaking to them today? As though they didn't know Jesus was speaking 'today'?

Luke 23:43 (ASV) And he said unto him Verily I say unto thee To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.
Luke 23:43 (DBY) And Jesus said to him Verily I say to thee To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luke 23:43 (WEB) Jesus said to him "Assuredly I tell you today you will be with me in Paradise."
Luke 23:43 (YLT) and Jesus said to him `Verily I say to thee To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

It's clear that Christ was conveying to the repentant thief that he would accompany Him to paradise (heaven) the very day they died. The Strong's Greek shows to day is used as 'this' very day when Christ and the thief would die and in spirit form ascend to the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven.

To day - Strong's Greek Dictionary
4594. σήμερον semeron (sḗmeron)
Search for G4594 in KJVSL; in KJV.

σήμερον sḗmeron, say'-mer-on - neuter (as adverb) of a presumed compound of the article G3588 (t changed to s) and G2250; on the (i.e. this) day (or night current or just passed); generally, now (i.e. at present, hitherto):—this (to-)day.

Who is “we”? I do not believe that those who lived and died before Jesus ever had the hope of a heavenly resurrection...it was not a Jewish expectation. They looked forward to living under the rulership of God’s kingdom here on earth.

Then you need to read and understand what is written in the New Testament of what the faith of Abraham, and all the saints of Old who died in faith were looking for! It most assuredly was a heavenly dwelling place. The Kingdom of God will NEVER be here on this earth. Read the words of Christ about where the Kingdom of God is and how believers inherit the Kingdom of God that is NOT of this world, but within you!

Again you are not saying what the Bible says, but reading so many things into the story that are simply not there. The resurrection of the saints does not take place until Christ’s return. Those “dead in Christ will rise first”....in spiritual bodies so as to enter the heavenly realm, which flesh and blood cannot do.

Who said that the “earth shall no longer be”? The earth is not going anywhere...it was created perfect. It is sinful and unrepentant mankind who will be removed from this earth..... permanently. (Psalm 104:5; Eccl 1:4)

You need to learn the difference between the "first resurrection" that is the resurrection of Christ alone, that man must have part of in life to overcome the second death. And the physical bodily resurrection that shall not be until an hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds that time given this earth for the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven to be built shall be no longer. It is because you don't know the difference between being born again, and bodily resurrection that you have no understanding of spiritual truths.

I said TIME given this earth shall be no longer! This earth as it exists now in TIME shall be burned up so that "all things shall be new again."

Revelation 10:6-7 (KJV) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[rwb]

If these were spirits, what's with the bodies?

According to Paul man has both a natural body of the earth, and a spiritual body as the heavenly. Just as in life we were natural body of believers, so too after our body dies we as a spiritual body of believers ascend to heaven. It is for this reason that Paul longed for physical death, knowing that when his body died, he would still be a living soul as a spiritual body of believers in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:46-49 (KJV) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The spirit that gave these Old Covenant faithful saints physical life were made spiritually alive after physical death, that, through the Spirit of Christ, as spirit soul roused from death, not resurrected physically, a spiritual body of believers ascended with Him when Christ, through His Spirit went into the lower parts of the earth, the grave, and set these captives to the grave spiritually free. After that they are living souls in heaven without physical form.

And they went to the city.... WHY?????????????????????????????????

Because the city they went to is not of this earth, but is the heavenly city, new Jerusalem that shall come down from heaven after the first heaven and earth have passed away (see Rev 21)

Every believer MUST live on after the death of our body or the Bible is indeed a lie. For in it we are repeatedly told and shown that the life we receive in Christ when we believe is ETERNAL, and that we can NEVER die! What is the purpose for which man's spirit returns to God after our body dies, if not to preserve our spirit alive in heaven?

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

According to Paul man has both a natural body of the earth, and a spiritual body as the heavenly. Just as in life we were natural body of believers, so too after our body dies we as a spiritual body of believers ascend to heaven. It is for this reason that Paul longed for physical death, knowing that when his body died, he would still be a living soul as a spiritual body of believers in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:46-49 (KJV) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The spirit that gave these Old Covenant faithful saints physical life were made spiritually alive after physical death, that, through the Spirit of Christ, as spirit soul roused from death, not resurrected physically, a spiritual body of believers ascended with Him when Christ, through His Spirit went into the lower parts of the earth, the grave, and set these captives to the grave spiritually free. After that they are living souls in heaven without physical form.



Because the city they went to is not of this earth, but is the heavenly city, new Jerusalem that shall come down from heaven after the first heaven and earth have passed away (see Rev 21)

Every believer MUST live on after the death of our body or the Bible is indeed a lie. For in it we are repeatedly told and shown that the life we receive in Christ when we believe is ETERNAL, and that we can NEVER die! What is the purpose for which man's spirit returns to God after our body dies, if not to preserve our spirit alive in heaven?

Nope! No cigar.

We read that the tombs (or in the case of Jimmy's, graves) broke open and many...BTW... NOT ALL.. bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised.

By your claim this would be their spiritual bodies... correct?

Were, whatever was left of their perishable, dishonorable, and weak, mortal flesh and blood just left there for the vultures?

Where do the glorified bodies come in?

I dont, BTW , disagree with you in your saying a spiritual body of believers ascended with Him when Christ, through His Spirit went into the lower parts of the earth, the grave, and set these captives to the grave spiritually free. After that they are living souls in heaven without physical form.

When do the glorified bodies come ?

NO ONE there was even remotely of the same status as Enoch or Elijah. There still had to be a mortal body still in the tomb/grave.

So if the mortal body did not rise and only the spiritual one that should have been in heaven with God already..... that presents another problem. Who saw what and made point to relay it so it could be written in Mathew whenever Mathew was written? And why then, did the remaining bodies... at minimum bones ... not be noted?
...........................
Again, who is it that saw these spirit people? The centurions, who became afraid? Are they the ones to relay that event to someone who eventually made it into the book of Matthew?

And how do we even know that they went into any city, Holy or not and appeared to many?
For if this was strictly spiritual.... I never knew anyone who came back to tell of it... did you?

If the bodies were still in the graves... it could have easily just been commented on that it was earthquake damage that made the tombs/graves open.



Got Questions says this...

The raising of the saints fits into the overall rhetorical devices (A rhetorical device is a linguistic tool that employs a particular type of sentence structure, sound, or pattern of meaning in order to evoke a particular reaction from an audience. Each rhetorical device is a distinct tool that can be used to construct an argument or make an existing argument more compelling.) and strategies used by Matthew in his gospel.

Examining Ezekiel 37 and the bones raised to life in connection with this story reveals that an Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled in the raising of these saints. Additionally, the raising of the saints relates directly to the coming kingdom. The raising of a few and not all of the saints shows that Jesus has power to resurrect, but also points forward to the second coming and judgment of Jesus Christ, which will include all those whose names are written in the Book Life by faith in the grace of God. Knowing that Jesus has died and conquered death through His resurrection ought to hasten our desire to repent and trust Him alone for salvation so we too can one day be resurrected “in the twinkling of an eye” (1 Corinthians 15:52).

So, one does wonder....

I know you dont, but I do.

 

[rwb]

We read that the tombs (or in the case of Jimmy's, graves) broke open and many...BTW... NOT ALL.. bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised.

Of course it could not say "all" the saints, but only the many who had already died were raised. The living were not raised only those many who had died.

Were, whatever was left of their perishable, dishonorable, and weak, mortal flesh and blood just left there for the vultures?

Where do the glorified bodies come in?

The mortal flesh of the saints who physically die shall not be resurrected immortal & incorruptible until an hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds. The resurrection of Christ was not an hour that is coming, nor did the last trumpet sound then. The mortal, corruptible bodies of flesh remained and returned to the earth, while the spirit eternally alive left the mortal flesh and ascended to heaven with Christ.

Believers are only positionally in heaven when we have been made spiritually alive by the Spirit when we were born again. Now, since Christ made atonement for sin, and defeated death, when we die we go actually to heaven a living soul, called spiritual body of believers. Where we are like the angels of God in heaven spirit beings without physical form. According to Christ the dead do rise since His first advent. In heaven they do not marry, but are as the angels in heaven. Because the dead now rise, even Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are spiritually alive in heaven. For "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living."

Mark 12:25-27 (KJV) For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

When the last trumpet sounds in an hour that is coming, the bodies of the saints who have died will be resurrected immortal & incorruptible.

Again, who is it that saw these spirit people? The centurions, who became afraid? Are they the ones to relay that event to someone who eventually made it into the book of Matthew?

The heavenly hosts! The centurion was a witness to the earth quaking and torn veil, and even the graves being opened. If he did witness the raising of the bodies from the grave there is nothing written in the Scripture, nor to my knowledge by historians about it, and for him to witness the dead being raised he could not have until three days later when Christ was resurrected.

And how do we even know that they went into any city, Holy or not and appeared to many?
For if this was strictly spiritual.... I never knew anyone who came back to tell of it... did you?

If the bodies were still in the graves... it could have easily just been commented on that it was earthquake damage that made the tombs/graves open.

There is indeed written in the Scriptures of "living souls" of human beings in heaven after physical death. If these faithful saints did not go into the holy city of Jerusalem on earth, nor did they go into the heavenly holy city, new Jerusalem, what holy city did they go where they appeared to many?

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Of course it could not say "all" the saints, but only the many who had already died were raised. The living were not raised only those many who had died.

Mathew 27: 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, From KingJimmy

And the graves (PLURAL)were opened; and many (NOT ALL) bodies (PLURAL) of the saints (PLURAL) which slept arose

It says "the" graves not some.
It says "many" not all
It says "bodies" as in more then one...
It says "saints" as in more then one...
It says "which slept" as in ... well you pick one. My undersatnding they were in their graves waiting . The suggestion is all the saints that were in their graves, not just some.
YET: ALL did not arise.

The mortal flesh of the saints who physically die shall not be resurrected immortal & incorruptible until an hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds. The resurrection of Christ was not an hour that is coming, nor did the last trumpet sound then. The mortal, corruptible bodies of flesh remained and returned to the earth, while the spirit eternally alive left the mortal flesh and ascended to heaven with Christ.

Believers are only positionally in heaven when we have been made spiritually alive by the Spirit when we were born again. Now, since Christ made atonement for sin, and defeated death, when we die we go actually to heaven a living soul, called spiritual body of believers. Where we are like the angels of God in heaven spirit beings without physical form. According to Christ the dead do rise since His first advent. In heaven they do not marry, but are as the angels in heaven. Because the dead now rise, even Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are spiritually alive in heaven. For "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living."

Mark 12:25-27 (KJV) For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

When the last trumpet sounds in an hour that is coming, the bodies of the saints who have died will be resurrected immortal & incorruptible.



The heavenly hosts! The centurion was a witness to the earth quaking and torn veil, and even the graves being opened. If he did witness the raising of the bodies from the grave there is nothing written in the Scripture, nor to my knowledge by historians about it, and for him to witness the dead being raised he could not have until three days later when Christ was resurrected.


There is indeed written in the Scriptures of "living souls" of human beings in heaven after physical death. If these faithful saints did not go into the holy city of Jerusalem on earth, nor did they go into the heavenly holy city, new Jerusalem, what holy city did they go where they appeared to many?

You see things differently then I do.

You are hung up on Holy but there were no witnesses available to see, relate, or record
anything that was not right here in there time span.

 

[rwb]

Mathew 27: 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, From KingJimmy

And the graves (PLURAL)were opened; and many (NOT ALL) bodies (PLURAL) of the saints (PLURAL) which slept arose

It says "the" graves not some.
It says "many" not all
It says "bodies" as in more then one...
It says "saints" as in more then one...
It says "which slept" as in ... well you pick one. My undersatnding they were in their graves waiting . The suggestion is all the saints that were in their graves, not just some.
YET: ALL did not arise.

Why would it say all the graves were opened since not all the faithful saints had died? In order for all the saints in all the graves to be opened, all the saints would have to have died, but only many of them had, so graves were opened and MANY NOT ALL bodies of the saints which slept arose. There were still bodies of saints alive that were not in graves and therefore were not raised.

Matthew 27:52 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

You see things differently then I do.

You are hung up on Holy but there were no witnesses available to see, relate, or record
anything that was not right here in there time span.

I'm not hung up on holy, that's where the text says they were seen by many. Though there is biblical proof of people who have died being in heaven, where the holy city new Jerusalem is located, there is not to my knowledge any written proof of these risen saints ascending into Jerusalem of earth.

 

[Aunty Jane]

There is indeed written in the Scriptures of "living souls" of human beings in heaven after physical death. If these faithful saints did not go into the holy city of Jerusalem on earth, nor did they go into the heavenly holy city, new Jerusalem, what holy city did they go where they appeared to many?

There are no “souls” in heaven....souls are living, breathing earthly creatures....and there is no mention of an immortal soul anywhere in the Bible...so please show us these living souls that are in heaven after death.....but please don’t mention Rev 6:9-11 because that is not about actual living souls, but those martyred for their faith. If your reference is to those verses, then you have a problem with the timing.

Have these martyrs been sitting under the alter all this time, lamenting the fact that their murders have not been avenged? Seriously? Revelation is highly symbolic.....not much of it is literal. It is also about a future time, not something that occurs at the time of their death.

Also when Luke 20:37-38 said...”But that the dead are raised up, even Moses made known in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ 38 He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.”

As far as God is concerned all of his faithful dead ones sleeping in their graves are as good as alive because he remembers everything about them. He promised them a resurrection, which is a return, or restoration of life here on earth, so that they get to enjoy, (along with all other faithful ones) an earthly paradise free from sin and all its consequences....something Adam never got to experience and neither did his children......but they will in the future, when the earth is cleansed and redeemed mankind can at last enjoy what God purposed for them in the beginning. (Isa 55:11)

 

[JunChosen]

However it was not as a Lamb slain that Jesus' blood must be shed. He had to literally take on human flesh, and shed human blood to be the substitutionary sacrifice for humans that believe in Him. Christ did not do this until He became man, lived a sinless life, gave His life as atonement for sin, resurrected from the dead, and finally ascended to heaven.

In the Old Testament the Jews used lambs and rams, and animals, for sacrificial offerings. However, God knew that it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Hebrews 10:9-12:
09 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Please read Hebrews Chapter 10.

2 Corinthians 5:8 (KJV) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul could say this because he lived AFTER the cross, resurrection and ascension of Christ.

English is my second language and I'm pretty sure I've understood the gist of 2 Corinthians 5:8, that there is a separation between the body and soul. For the saved and upon death, his body goes back to the dust whilst his soul goes to heaven with the Lord. For the unsaved, both body and soul goes to a place of silence.

The efficacy of the cross goes back all the way to eternity past and before the foundation of the world. Or else, how can the Old Testament saints be saved???

To God Be The Glory