What Happens To Unbelievers After Death ???

[musicworld]

Hi

For those who are belivers in Jesus are saved, but for those who are not belivers in Jesus are not saved. So what actually happens to none belivers after death? does GOD destroy the sole so they are conciuos of nothing for all eternity? or are they continuesly punished in a place called hell for all eternity?

Is that really the nature of GOD to punish someone for all eternity, or to just cut them off so they simply cease to never exist again.

 

[Johnlove]

Hi

For those who are belivers in Jesus are saved, but for those who are not belivers in Jesus are not saved. So what actually happens to none belivers after death? does GOD destroy the sole so they are conciuos of nothing for all eternity? or are they continuesly punished in a place called hell for all eternity?

Is that really the nature of GOD to punish someone for all eternity, or to just cut them off so they simply cease to never exist again.

[SIZE=16pt](John 12:47-48) “If anyone hears my words and does not keep them faithfully, it is not I who shall condemn him, since I have come not to condemn the world, but to save the world: he who rejects me and refuses my words has his judge already: the [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]word itself[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]People will be judged on how they kept God’s commandments. [/SIZE]

 

[Webers_Home]

Is that really the nature of GOD to punish someone for all eternity, or to
just cut them off so they simply cease to never exist again.

I watched an educational series on NetFlix in September of 2014 called "The
Inexplicable Universe: Unsolved Mysteries" hosted by Neil deGrasse Tyson
Ph.D. director of the Hayden Planetarium. Mr. Tyson said, in so many words;
that in the study of Physics, one must sometimes abandon sense and accept
discoveries as they are no matter how contrary to logic they may seem.

The NASA teams that sent Pioneers, Voyagers and Mariners out to explore
the planets came to the very same conclusion: they learned to abandon their
logical expectations and instead expect the unexpected; and they
encountered plenty.

In the field of Christianity, as in the fields of Physics and planetary
exploration, faith believes what's revealed to it rather than only what makes
sense to it. I readily admit that the idea of people existing in conscious
suffering to time indefinite makes no sense at all, and seems to totally
contradict the nature of a divine patron alleged to be kind, caring, and
sympathetic. But just as science admits to many unsolved mysteries; so
does Christianity. And there's no shame in that. The shame is in pretending
to have complete understanding of a supernatural religion that by its very
nature defies reason and common sense.

Buen Camino
/

 

[justaname]

I watched an educational series on NetFlix in September of 2014 called "The
Inexplicable Universe: Unsolved Mysteries" hosted by Neil deGrasse Tyson
Ph.D. director of the Hayden Planetarium. Mr. Tyson said, in so many words;
that in the study of Physics, one must sometimes abandon sense and accept
discoveries as they are no matter how contrary to logic they may seem.

The NASA teams that sent Pioneers, Voyagers and Mariners out to explore
the planets came to the very same conclusion: they learned to abandon their
logical expectations and instead expect the unexpected; and they
encountered plenty.

In the field of Christianity, as in the fields of Physics and planetary
exploration, faith believes what's revealed to it rather than only what makes
sense to it. I readily admit that the idea of people existing in conscious
suffering to time indefinite makes no sense at all, and seems to totally
contradict the nature of a divine patron alleged to be kind, caring, and
sympathetic. But just as science admits to many unsolved mysteries; so
does Christianity. And there's no shame in that. The shame is in pretending
to have complete understanding of a supernatural religion that by its very
nature defies reason and common sense.

Buen Camino
/

Wow!

 

[FHII]

From my understanding of what is written in the Bible, they go to Hell, but it is not their final destination. They will eventually be delivered to the white throne to be judged. They will have "a book" of their life and it will be compared to the "Book of Life", and they will be judged according to their works. If they are found guilty (and if they are there, they will be) they will be cast into the lake of fire. This is from Revelations 20.

Is it God's nature to punish someone? Absolutely. Even those that he loves receive chastizement (From Hebrews 12.... More or less correction than "punishment" but then again, it will be grevious). Furthermore, if you don't believe it's God's nature to punish... Wow... You are missing alot in the Bible because even Paul spent 3 days blind and probably pretty terrified.

For eternity? Well, Rev 20 says Satan will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. What about the rest of them? I don't know. The righteous get life eternal but others everlasting punishment. I'd like to believe that eventually God will say, enough, and just snuff them out. Let them cease to exist even as a spiritual being -- "total death" if you will. But unfortunately, I don't have scripture that says so. Best I can do is spin it and say at least they don't have a life of eternal suffering; only everlasting punishment. But that really doesn't make much sense, does it?

It's going to be bad for them.... Maybe God's got some other plan, but I haven't seen it written.

 

[aspen]

Hard to see Hell as appropriate punishment........over kill, to say the least. Worse than lighting a kid on fire for cutting school.....

Even lowly humans attempt to make punishment fit the crime.

Hell seems to be more like an incurable disease, to me - apart from Christ.

 

[williemac]

From my understanding of what is written in the Bible, they go to Hell, but it is not their final destination. They will eventually be delivered to the white throne to be judged. They will have "a book" of their life and it will be compared to the "Book of Life", and they will be judged according to their works. If they are found guilty (and if they are there, they will be) they will be cast into the lake of fire. This is from Revelations 20.

Is it God's nature to punish someone? Absolutely. Even those that he loves receive chastizement (From Hebrews 12.... More or less correction than "punishment" but then again, it will be grevious). Furthermore, if you don't believe it's God's nature to punish... Wow... You are missing alot in the Bible because even Paul spent 3 days blind and probably pretty terrified.

For eternity? Well, Rev 20 says Satan will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. What about the rest of them? I don't know. The righteous get life eternal but others everlasting punishment. I'd like to believe that eventually God will say, enough, and just snuff them out. Let them cease to exist even as a spiritual being -- "total death" if you will. But unfortunately, I don't have scripture that says so. Best I can do is spin it and say at least they don't have a life of eternal suffering; only everlasting punishment. But that really doesn't make much sense, does it?

It's going to be bad for them.... Maybe God's got some other plan, but I haven't seen it written.

You have asked a good question, but I believe are incorrect in your comment that there is no scripture to confirm the cessation of life. I strongly suggest you consider John 6:50,51. In that passage, Jesus tells of two possible destinies. One is to die, the other is to live forever. He makes no mention of location. The attention in that passage is paid rather to the duration of life. And in only one of the two possibilities do we find a person being alive forever. Not both.
The same can be said of the most quoted passage in the bible: John 3:16. Jesus in that verse also gives two alternatives; to perish or have everlasting life. Again, He makes no mention of location but rather focuses on the duration of life. And whatever definition the scholars want to suggest for 'perish', one thing that is obvious to me, it cannot mean everlasting life. They cannot both be the same fate.

As well, in Math. 10:28, Jesus advises them to not fear they who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. My first comment on this is that we all know what a dead body looks like. It is a corpse with no life in it. Therefore we can be certain that Jesus was speaking of the same thing for both body and soul. Man cannot kill another man's soul. But God can. If He couldn't then Jesus is telling them not to fear God either. But instead, He goes on to say that in Gehenna, the word translated as hell in that passage, both body and soul are destroyed. People can argue till the cows come home that destroy does not mean kill, but if that were the case, then the subject of the passage changed in mid sentence. The subject is death. The subject is about why we should fear God in relation to what can be killed by God.

So, some may suggest that although God can kill the soul, He has no intention of ever doing so. If that were the case, Jesus is telling them to fear God for something He has no intention of ever doing. That's rediculous. That would be deceiving of Jesus.

Then of course, we have the very first act of God in response to the disobedience of Adam and Eve. In Gen.3:22, God removes them from access to the tree of life lest they might take and eat of it and live forever. What did God do? He denied man from having everlasting life. In the new testament, we can further see that only those who partake of Jesus in faith have the right to everlasting life. So what's all this nonesense about everyone living forever, whether saved or lost? It is taken from things like a passage where we find three fallen angels being tormented day and night forever and ever. Angels are angels. Man is man. What happens to either in the lake of fire is not up to us to conclude by virtue of a guess that happens to require the changing of the meaning of words in order to accomodate, and the denying of obvious passages that suggest not all humans will live forever.

There may be objections that can be taken from other passages. I have looked at all of them. They are usually circumstantial, such as "everlasting punishment". Again, this term does not say what the punishment actually is, but just that it is forever. It is assumed by some to mean having a conscious awareness of being punished. But what if the punishment includes that all consciousness should cease? If this were the case, and there is no reversal offered, then it truly would be an ever-lasting punishment. This is an example that in many places, there is more than one possible meaning. Therefore it is legitimate to look at a passage in such a way to see which interpretation aligns itself with other places in scripture that deal with the same subject.

People often make assumptions and draw conclusions from passages from pre determined conclusions.This is bad bible translation. The solution is to let things say what they say and do not add to it so that it says more than what it says.

hope this has helped

 

[FHII]

You have asked a good question, but I believe are incorrect in your comment that there is no scripture to confirm the cessation of life.

Hi Williemac! Nope, I'm not incorrect..... I never said there is no scripture; I said I didn't know of any!

I'll look at what you said and get back to you... For now, please realize I'm talking about the spirit, not the flesh. All flesh is going to die and none of it is going to the Kingdom. That is in the Bible and it makes me wonder what exactly happened with Elijah and Enoch. But that's another story. It's more of a question of whether God will punish the spiritual soul of a person or simply snuff it out.

 

[clark thompson]

God gives what they wanted to remain without Him, they wait judgement after their death and then will go to hell, the place will all should go to but by Christ we can be spared, they haver not chose Christ face the fires of hell for eternity.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Hi

For those who are belivers in Jesus are saved, but for those who are not belivers in Jesus are not saved. So what actually happens to none belivers after death? does GOD destroy the sole so they are conciuos of nothing for all eternity? or are they continuesly punished in a place called hell for all eternity?

Is that really the nature of GOD to punish someone for all eternity, or to just cut them off so they simply cease to never exist again.

God is not punishing anyone, if a person does not go to heaven it is by their choice. Adam was told not to eat of the tree of knowledge or he would die that day. He ate and died spiritually that day. All people have been born dead spiritually since that time. So just because someone dies a natural death today does not mean they were ever alive spiritually. Hell is just a grave to bury a dead body that was never alive spiritually..

Here is how Jesus tells it.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
"though he were dead" refers to the state we are in if we have not believed.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
"whosoever liveth" refers to one who believes and now is willing to continue to walk with God so that they shall never die.

 

[williemac]

Hi Williemac! Nope, I'm not incorrect..... I never said there is no scripture; I said I didn't know of any!

I'll look at what you said and get back to you... For now, please realize I'm talking about the spirit, not the flesh. All flesh is going to die and none of it is going to the Kingdom. That is in the Bible and it makes me wonder what exactly happened with Elijah and Enoch. But that's another story. It's more of a question of whether God will punish the spiritual soul of a person or simply snuff it out.

You and I likely have differing viewpoints as to just what the spirit is and the soul as well. They are not the same. They are seperate. The soul is our identity, our phsyche. The spirit is a spiritual body. It is the spiritual equivalent to the physical body, the body of flesh. One passage to consider is 2Cor.5:1. Paul mentions 3 parts: Us, our earthly body, and our heavenly body. We live in a tent as Paul called it. and He spoke of another one we have for our use in the next realm. It happens that we are made of three parts body, soul, and spirit.

However, if the spirit is as you say it is, a spiritual soul, and if it will live forever in a lost man, and if that man is identifed with this part that will live forever, he in fact is living forever. Jesus did not say that would happen to everyone. He said the opposite. He did not divide men into parts in those passages I quoted, with the exception of Math.10:28. And there, He said the soul had the same fate as the body. cheers.

 

[KingJ]

Hi

For those who are belivers in Jesus are saved, but for those who are not belivers in Jesus are not saved. So what actually happens to none belivers after death? does GOD destroy the sole so they are conciuos of nothing for all eternity? or are they continuesly punished in a place called hell for all eternity?

Is that really the nature of GOD to punish someone for all eternity, or to just cut them off so they simply cease to never exist again.

Firstly understand that the difference between those in hell and heaven is not simply belief. I believe X and you believe Y, I am right and you are wrong = STUPID. Those in heaven HATE sin and those in hell LOVE the darkness John 3:19.

Hell is just an eternal home for all those who HATE God (love sin). People who reject Jesus are rejecting repentance of their sin = loving sin.

The fire in hell is as figurative as the word death. You MUST try understand that God describes things in scripture from His vantage point. He says that someone in sin is LOST, loves DEATH, is DEAD. When the sinner is actually enjoying the life he has chosen. Kind of like a rich man using rhetorical overstatements to describe a poor man. It is not lies but to the poor man who knows no better it seems like / is an exaggeration.

God has NEVER tortured His enemy. It is a JOKE that ANY Christian assume He will do so in the future. Scripture says eternal torment is coming NOT torture.

Torment = Oscar Pretorius crying with regret.
Torture = Someone poking Oscar with a fork continuously.

Nobody can say for certain what awaits any of us.... but what we can do is look at where the evidence points. We give thanks to God because He is good Psalm 136:1. He is a God that teaches us to love our enemy Matt 5:44.

Loving Reeva Steenkamp = Put Oscar in prison for the appropriate time (judged according to works Rom 2:6)

Loving Oscar Pretorius = Visit Oscar often, make sure he knows you forgive him, make sure he is well fed, make sure his investments are been taken care of so that when he gets out he has money, make sure his family and friends are taken care of, make sure nobody is torturing him!

Loving enemies = Christianity 101 = God's heart.

Eternal separation is the ONLY guaranteed truth because God does not make mistakes Matt 25:32. If anyone hates sin now or in the future, they will be with Him. Our evil reaches a measure with God where we become beyond hope / deepest intention fully grasped / decision to love sin is final Gen 15:16.
A Christian HAS to understand that God LOVES ALL but WE hate Him. We are NOT in charge, thank God! We can and must assume the best treatment possible for those that hate God.

Eph 3:18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height.
vs 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

In the field of Christianity, as in the fields of Physics and planetary
exploration, faith believes what's revealed to it rather than only what makes
sense to it. I readily admit that the idea of people existing in conscious
suffering to time indefinite makes no sense at all, and seems to totally
contradict the nature of a divine patron alleged to be kind, caring, and
sympathetic. But just as science admits to many unsolved mysteries; so
does Christianity. And there's no shame in that. The shame is in pretending
to have complete understanding of a supernatural religion that by its very
nature defies reason and common sense.

Buen Camino
/

There is some truth to this but overall I think its dumb.

We are accountable for sin because we have brains that understand the difference between good and evil. Likewise we can grasp punishment according to our works. Hence Paul says 1 Cor 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life.

We WILL grasp the punishment God gives out to the wicked. We will not cry or be upset with God because we will grasp that it is fair and 'fine'. NOBODY will accept eternal torture or annihilation as fine.

We are the human race now and we will be the human race in heaven for all eternity. God deals with us on our level. God is never super mysterious / beyond our understanding.
edit: 'beyond our understanding' in his dealings with us.

 

[Enquirer]

@ musicworld ... At death (for both the believer and non-believer), the soul (mind, will and emotions) are not switched off like a vehicle.
The believer immediately enters into the presence of Jesus ... see

So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight.
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:6-8

So where are you the believer when you die ? .... "at home with the Lord".

For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven,
an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 Cor 5:1

(I have deliberately used the New Living Translation here because it spells it out so much more clearly.)

So what is this verse telling us ? .... it is saying that when you die God Himself will create a new eternal body for you to live in when you go to
be "at home with the Lord".

Alright then so what about the unbeliever ?

Well according to believers like KingJ and aspen (both of whom I respect), they believe that God is not a bad God and therefore, He does not
engage in such vile acts like sending a person to hell where they undergo torture.
Well it's true, God is not a bad God and He does not revel in torture.
But here is where we differ, unbelief in God is an act of rebellion and rebellion is a punishable crime.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. John 3:36

Did you get that last bit ? .... "the wrath of God remains on him".

Now an excellent display of God's wrath can be found in Revelation 16:1-14. I am not going to quote the passage but the wrath of God is
incredibly severe on the unbelievers.
And you find that the angels in more than one verse found in the passage declare that,

"You are just in these judgments, O Holy One, you who are and who were;" Rev 16:5

Yes, God is just to display such incredible anger and punishment on the unbeliever and Jesus as I quoted in John 3:36 says that this "wrath"
will "remain" on the person who does not obey him.

REMAIN on the person who does not obey ... there is no leniency at all ... and you know that Jesus is not a liar.
because if He did lie here then how can we trust him on anything else He said, most especially concerning our salvation.
No, Jesus is NOT a liar and the unbeliever who dies will immediately enter into his wrath because he has rejected God.

Sure it doesn't sound pretty but those are the facts.

So where do the unbelievers go when they die ? ... they go to Hades.

Revelation 20:13 - 15 says,

And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them,
according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Where were the unbelievers ? ... in Hades !
The believers go to be in Jesus presence when they die and the unbelievers go to Hades.
So what is Hades like where the unbelieving go to when they die ?

Well Jesus gives a perfect description of the place in Luke 16:23 - 24,

and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have
mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.

And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house—for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come
into this place of torment.’ Luke 16:27-28.

End of story, no mercy for the unbelievers only wrath, torment and suffering.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

Psalm 1:5
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,

Psalm 1:6
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Ungodly just die like an animal does. Eccl.3:18-20

you can't live forever without God anyway he gives the gift of life to the believers Romans 6:23

If they are believer and die waiting for a resurrection they go into the book of remembrance.

Malachi 3:16-17
16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it,
and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them,
as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

How I see it for now.

 

[FHII]

You and I likely have differing viewpoints as to just what the spirit is and the soul as well. They are not the same. They are seperate. The soul is our identity, our phsyche. The spirit is a spiritual body. It is the spiritual equivalent to the physical body, the body of flesh. One passage to consider is 2Cor.5:1. Paul mentions 3 parts: Us, our earthly body, and our heavenly body. We live in a tent as Paul called it. and He spoke of another one we have for our use in the next realm. It happens that we are made of three parts body, soul, and spirit.

However, if the spirit is as you say it is, a spiritual soul, and if it will live forever in a lost man, and if that man is identifed with this part that will live forever, he in fact is living forever. Jesus did not say that would happen to everyone. He said the opposite. He did not divide men into parts in those passages I quoted, with the exception of Math.10:28. And there, He said the soul had the same fate as the body. cheers.

Hi Willicmac,

Pardon me dragging my feet on your response.... Things have been busy for me.

My comment here include a previous exchange we had on this thread. We are discussing whether non believers have eternal life -- via damnation or salvation. You are making inferences with the verses you provide, and I must say I agree with those inferences. Indeed they are logical. I'll throw in another verse which is Rev 3:5 which says says overcomers will not have their name blotted out in the book of LIFE. Stands to reason that others WILL.

There is also a verse in Rev 20 that says Satan will be tormented for ever and ever, and in Jude 1:7 principalities (if you'll allow the term, cause he isn't talking about humans, but rebellious angels) suffer the vengence of eternal fire. But again, Satan and these rebellious angels aren't and weren't humans. The only verse that I find that speaks of eternal punishment is Mark 3:29. They don't receive forgiveness and are "in danger" of eternal damnation.

There are many verses that speak of eternal life for the righteous or "saved". Not many for the damned. Either way.... No verse says they will have their souls, spirits or whatever you'd like to put forth being wiped out. Even Rev 3:5.

However, they are pretty strong inferences, so I gotta side with you. If I said I believed they were going to get eternal life, even in damnation, I misspoke... Or I was misunderstood. Never believed that, just didn't have verses that said so.

As for the difference between "soul" and "spirit"... Not in the mood to debate it now.

Good show, Willicmac!

 

[KingJ]

@ musicworld ... At death (for both the believer and non-believer), the soul (mind, will and emotions) are not switched off like a vehicle.
The believer immediately enters into the presence of Jesus ... see

So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight.
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:6-8

So where are you the believer when you die ? .... "at home with the Lord".

For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven,
an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 Cor 5:1

(I have deliberately used the New Living Translation here because it spells it out so much more clearly.)

So what is this verse telling us ? .... it is saying that when you die God Himself will create a new eternal body for you to live in when you go to
be "at home with the Lord".

Alright then so what about the unbeliever ?

Well according to believers like KingJ and aspen (both of whom I respect), they believe that God is not a bad God and therefore, He does not
engage in such vile acts like sending a person to hell where they undergo torture.
Well it's true, God is not a bad God and He does not revel in torture.
But here is where we differ, unbelief in God is an act of rebellion and rebellion is a punishable crime.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. John 3:36

Did you get that last bit ? .... "the wrath of God remains on him".

Now an excellent display of God's wrath can be found in Revelation 16:1-14. I am not going to quote the passage but the wrath of God is
incredibly severe on the unbelievers.
And you find that the angels in more than one verse found in the passage declare that,

"You are just in these judgments, O Holy One, you who are and who were;" Rev 16:5

Yes, God is just to display such incredible anger and punishment on the unbeliever and Jesus as I quoted in John 3:36 says that this "wrath"
will "remain" on the person who does not obey him.

REMAIN on the person who does not obey ... there is no leniency at all ... and you know that Jesus is not a liar.
because if He did lie here then how can we trust him on anything else He said, most especially concerning our salvation.
No, Jesus is NOT a liar and the unbeliever who dies will immediately enter into his wrath because he has rejected God.

Sure it doesn't sound pretty but those are the facts.

So where do the unbelievers go when they die ? ... they go to Hades.

Revelation 20:13 - 15 says,

And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them,
according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Where were the unbelievers ? ... in Hades !
The believers go to be in Jesus presence when they die and the unbelievers go to Hades.
So what is Hades like where the unbelieving go to when they die ?

Well Jesus gives a perfect description of the place in Luke 16:23 - 24,

and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have
mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.

And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house—for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come
into this place of torment.’ Luke 16:27-28.

End of story, no mercy for the unbelievers only wrath, torment and suffering.

Rev 16 is an interesting read. Crystal clear suffering. The issue I have is not with the evil deserving or receiving punishment of suffering, it is whether or not that is eternal. Consider the plagues given to the Egyptians (temporal). Consider the way in which those in Sodom and Gomorrah died (instantly). They did not run around in the streets for a few days like the Kurds attacked with chemical gas by Saddam. Those who kill the saints and prophets get terrible sores, do these sores stay with them for eternity? I don't think so. God's wrath is classic. Sores = not just painful, but ugly. God ''could'' give them inner suffering but He doesn't. He is making a statement. He wants all to know and see He is punishing them.

The rich man in Hades could be enduring his moment of suffering in the flame. Just like those on earth who will be getting those sores. Perhaps the rich man never received something like that on earth from God?

I do not dispute the scripture you quoted. I just want you to add scripture like Rom 2:6 and Matt 5:44. With lateral thought like: 1. NO good Christian on this planet would ever torture their enemy. If we weren't Christians, sure we would. We have a renewed heart. Renewed by God. Isn't it therefore very silly to assume that our God who changed us would do what we detest? 2. God honored the request of the demons to be cast into pigs. God loves the pigs. God therefore loved the demons more then the pigs / treated the demons better then the pigs. 3. God allowed the devil the time of day to tempt Him in the wilderness on not just one occasion, but three. 4. God allowed the devil to leave heaven with dignity. He turned into a great dragon. What would you do to an ant wanting your seat? Squash or flick him away? God did neither = God treated him with respect and love.

Why can't hell be like Hanoi? A beautiful island, yet always referred to as the island with the volcano / lake of fire ^_^.

I don't think there is a single Christian here who honestly believes eternal torture or annihilation is the way to treat our WORST enemies. So why do we teach it without any hesitation?

 

[logabe]

Rev 16 is an interesting read. Crystal clear suffering. The issue I have is not with the evil deserving or receiving punishment of suffering, it is whether or not that is eternal. Consider the plagues given to the Egyptians (temporal). Consider the way in which those in Sodom and Gomorrah died (instantly). They did not run around in the streets for a few days like the Kurds attacked with chemical gas by Saddam. Those who kill the saints and prophets get terrible sores, do these sores stay with them for eternity? I don't think so. God's wrath is classic. Sores = not just painful, but ugly. God ''could'' give them inner suffering but He doesn't. He is making a statement. He wants all to know and see He is punishing them.

The rich man in Hades could be enduring his moment of suffering in the flame. Just like those on earth who will be getting those sores. Perhaps the rich man never received something like that on earth from God?

I do not dispute the scripture you quoted. I just want you to add scripture like Rom 2:6 and Matt 5:44. With lateral thought like: 1. NO good Christian on this planet would ever torture their enemy. If we weren't Christians, sure we would. We have a renewed heart. Renewed by God. Isn't it therefore very silly to assume that our God who changed us would do what we detest? 2. God honored the request of the demons to be cast into pigs. God loves the pigs. God therefore loved the demons more then the pigs / treated the demons better then the pigs. 3. God allowed the devil the time of day to tempt Him in the wilderness on not just one occasion, but three. 4. God allowed the devil to leave heaven with dignity. He turned into a great dragon. What would you do to an ant wanting your seat? Squash or flick him away? God did neither = God treated him with respect and love.

Why can't hell be like Hanoi? A beautiful island, yet always referred to as the island with the volcano / lake of fire ^_^.

I don't think there is a single Christian here who honestly believes eternal torture or annihilation is the way to treat our WORST enemies. So why do we teach it without any hesitation?

Because that is the way we have been taught. It's not our fault. We have been bomb barded since
we were little toddlers how bad and hateful God is toward His enemies. We have been taught that
God has no mercy on Russia, China, India, Iran, & all the other countries that don't believe the way
we believe it. If God would just eliminate them, then our problems would be solved, so why don't
God throw them in hell for eternity?

It's not our fault. We just wasn't taught that God was a forgiving God. We gave lip service, but our
hearts was not ready to really believe that way because of the way we were taught.

Jesus died for sinners (bad people), I mean really bad people and we still miss that divine act because
it doesn't line up to what we have been taught. It's not our fault. Here's the TRUTH.

Rev. 5:13 says,

13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth
and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I
heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb,
be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

Sounds like a lot of people to me.

Here's what will happen to the unbelievers. Zech. 14:16-19 says,

16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations
that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to
worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of
Booths (Tabernacles).
17 And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does
not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts,
there will be no rain on them.
18 If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will
fall on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the
nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
19 This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all
the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

Ohhh, so their punishment isn't them going to hell forever. It's not our fault. We were taught wrong
from the very beginning. Wow... what a revelation!!!

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[KingJ]

That's interesting Logabe. I can believe that.

 

[Webers_Home]

-
†. Mark 9:47-48 . . If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for
you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be
thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not
quenched.

Jesus revealed nothing new in that passage. He got it from the Old Testament.

†. Isa 66:22-24 . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to
another, all mankind will come and bow down before me-- testifies Yhvh.
And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled
against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they
will be loathsome to all mankind.

If that's a reference to the lake of flaming sulfur in the book of Revelation then
it reveals that people won't be disintegrated in the lake but will be somehow
kept in existence as perpetual nourishment for a curious species of fire-proof
worm.

A worm that thrives in flaming sulfur is pretty amazing, but not
unreasonable. The 4-inch Pompeii worm lives in sea water temperatures of
176° Fahrenheit, hot enough to kill salmonella and sanitize an egg. So I
guess if God could create a worm like the Pompeii, it shouldn't be too
difficult for Him to create worms that like it even warmer.

========================================

 

[logabe]

That's interesting Logabe. I can believe that.

Glad you liked it. Here's something else you need to ponder. Eze. 44:12-14 says,

12 "Because they ministered to them before their idols
and became a stumbling block of iniquity to the house of
Israel, therefore I have sworn against them," declares
the Lord GOD, "that they shall bear the punishment for
their iniquity.
13 "And they shall not come near to Me to serve as a priest
to Me, nor come near to any of My holy things, to the things
that are most holy; but they will bear their shame and their
abominations which they have committed.
14 "Yet I will appoint them to keep charge of the house, of
all its service and of all that shall be done in it.

What!!! These priests caused the whole house of Israel to go astray, and God's way of
punishing them is making them a janitor in the house of God. You've got to be kidding
me. These were people that knew better, but they still taught rebellion in the kingdom
of God. If anybody should go to HELL for eternity it should be them, but God has a
nature and character of forgiving and loving His enemies that most Christians haven't
experienced, so it's really not their fault.

They have been taught that God will put them in a place and forget about them for a
very long time. Wrong!!! God will have mercy upon the darkest sinner and will cause
them to one day receive His Spirit. The Old Man will finally die and we will look upon
his carcass thanking God for delivering us from that disgust.

We're doing that today when we give our testimonies, God is reminding us of our former
life without Him. The Old Man had me doing drugs and hating everyone I would come
in contact with. He was brutal, but God slain him by the FIRE of HIS MOUTH. God spoke
the Word into my heart and destroyed that old man that kept me in bondage. Thank you
Jesus for the NEW MAN inside of me.

God isn't finished with His salvation plan, as a matter of fact, He is just beginning. We
haven't seen nothing yet, but we will begin to see changes in the near future. Nations will
begin to recognize the Spirit of God and things will begin to change rapidly. Russians by the
millions will be saved. The middle eastern countries will experience the Love and Mercy of
the Christ. India will turn their backs on their idols and the Kingdom of God will flourish in
their land. Get ready America or things will look rather strange to the natural eye in the
coming years. God is on the scene and he is looking for believers that believe in His spoken
WORD.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe