What I believe about the Atonement

[Steve Owen]

No. I will study the Bible, not your post, to see what the Bible says on the matter. I am asking about what you say on this matter.

And I am asking about what you say on this matter. It seems we're at an impasse.

I have read pretty much everything Owen's [sic] has written (I was once a Calvinist who affirmed and taught Penal Substitution Theory and Owen's [sic] was one of my favorites... still is in many ways). I know what Owen's [sic] said, but again, I am asking about you.

Well if you've read everything he has written, including his seven volume work on Hebrews and nine volumes on other topics, I would have thought you might have got his name right. The Works of John Owen

I believe that we will die physically, Steve. And I can affirm many of us have less hair than when we first believed.

What do you believe Jesus experienced instead of us. You say Jesus experienced being forsaken instead of us. What does this mean to you?

I have answered so many times. The Lord Jesus suffered instead of us (ie. believers) the death, punishment, separation and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for sin. We have passed from death to life; there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus; John writes to us that we may know that we have (right now) eternal life; the second death will not hurt us at all; nothing in all creation will separate us from the love that there is in Christ Jesus. How many texts do you want?

Now what the Lord Jesus Christ experienced was the feeling, as a Man, of being forsaken by God. He experienced it possibly for six hours, but more probably during the three hours of darkness. What it means to me is that because He has experienced it, I never will.
'Payment God will not twice demand:
Once at my bleeding Surety's hand,
And then again from me.'

And now are you going to deal with my post #224?

 

[John Caldwell]

And I am asking about what you say on this matter. It seems we're at an impasse.

I have read pretty much everything Owen's [sic] has written (I was once a Calvinist who affirmed and taught Penal Substitution Theory and Owen's [sic] was one of my favorites... still is in many ways). I know what Owen's [sic] said, but again, I am asking about you.
Well if you've read everything he has written, including his seven volume work on Hebrews and nine volumes on other topics, I would have though you might have got his name right. The Works of John Owen

I have answered so many times. The Lord Jesus suffered instead of us (ie. believers) the death, punishment, separation and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for sin. We have passed from death to life; there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus; John writes to us that we may know that we have (right now) eternal life; the second death will not hurt us at all; nothing in all creation will separate us from the love that there is in Christ Jesus. How many texts do you want?

Now what the Lord Jesus Christ experienced was the feeling, as a Man, of being forsaken by God. He experienced it possibly for six hours, but more probably during the three hours of darkness. What it means to me is that because He has experienced it, I never will.
'Payment God will not twice demand:
Once at my bleeding Surety's hand,
And then again from me.'

And now are you going to deal with my post #224?

I did respond to post#224. You indicated it was necessary to understand the Bible. I said I did not believe it so. I agreed with the idea of Christ dying to free us from the law of sin and death. I do not believe Satan or man ever held sway over God.

Payment God will not twice demand:

You say Jesus died physically instead of us.
Yet Scripture indicates we will die physically.

Again, what did Jesus experience that we will not?

 

[Steve Owen]

I did respond to post#224. You indicated it was necessary to understand the Bible. I said I did not believe it so. I agreed with the idea of Christ dying to free us from the law of sin and death. I do not believe Satan or man ever held sway over God.

You have not dealt with it at all. I want you to deal with my post #224. Christ died to satisfy God's justice; that He might be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus. This is how Satan is defeated; that he can no longer accuse the brethren, because Christ has taken their sin away by paying the just penalty for it. This is the big fat hole in Ransom, Christus Victor, Moral Influence and all the other nonsense. None of it satisfies God's justice or defeats Satan.

Payment God will not twice demand:

You say Jesus died physically instead of us.
Yet Scripture indicates we will die physically.

Again, what did Jesus experience that we will not?

When someone is saved, they receive eternal life, at that point. That is why we are told that we are raised with Christ and that we are seated in the heavenly places with Christ. "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This [I assume the Lord Jesus was pointing to Himself] is the bread that came down from heaven that one may eat and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever and the bread that I [Myself] shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world" (John 6:49-51).

I realize that you don't like this text, but there it is, bold as brass, in the Bible. Those who feed spiritually, by faith, upon the Lord Jesus Christ will not die but live forever. Why? Because Christ has given His flesh (His human body) on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins in full. Now once we were dead (Ephesians 2:1-3), but now we have been made alive (Ephesians 2:4-6), given new birth (1 Peter 1:3) and eternal life right now. Now it is true that unless Christ returns first we shall 'fall asleep' (Acts of the Apostles 7:60; John 11:11; 1 Corinthians 15:20; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15) in Christ, but we go straight to our Lord to wait with Him until He returns (2 Corinthians 5:1). Through Christ's death and resurrection, we have, right now, eternal life. 'And whoever lives and believes in Me, shall never die.'

 

[John Caldwell]

You have not dealt with it at all. I want you to deal with my post #224. Christ died to satisfy God's justice; that He might be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus. This is how Satan is defeated; that he can no longer accuse the brethren, because Christ has taken their sin away by paying the just penalty for it. This is the big fat hole in Ransom, Christus Victor, Moral Influence and all the other nonsense. None of it satisfies God's justice or defeats Satan.

When someone is saved, they receive eternal life, at that point. That is why we are told that we are raised with Christ and that we are seated in the heavenly places with Christ. "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This [I assume the Lord Jesus was pointing to Himself] is the bread that came down from heaven that one may eat and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever and the bread that I [Myself] shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world" (John 6:49-51).

I realize that you don't like this text, but there it is, bold as brass, in the Bible. Those who feed spiritually, by faith, upon the Lord Jesus Christ will not die but live forever. Why? Because Christ has given His flesh (His human body) on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins in full. Now once we were dead (Ephesians 2:1-3), but now we have been made alive (Ephesians 2:4-6), given new birth (1 Peter 1:3) and eternal life right now. Now it is true that unless Christ returns first we shall 'fall asleep' (Acts of the Apostles 7:60; John 11:11; 1 Corinthians 15:20; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15) in Christ, but we go straight to our Lord to wait with Him until He returns (2 Corinthians 5:1). Through Christ's death and resurrection, we have, right now, eternal life. 'And whoever lives and believes in Me, shall never die.'

You are confused about what I believe. That is probably my fault and I apologize.

John 6:43-51
“Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. [45] It is written in the prophets, 'And THEY SHALL ALL BE taught OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

I absolutely agree with this passage. The thing is, I do believe we have to die to sin. I do believe that we will experience a physical death. I believe our bodies are corruptible and will perish. I believe we struggle with the flesh in this life. We are born of the Spirit, and this is life (not the flesh). Christ redeemed us - not our sin, or the flesh, but us.

I think the major difference between our views is that I believe redemption is manifested apart from the law (not contrary to, but separate from) while you present redemption as manifested through the law. I think you are in the exact position where Nicodemus once stood. Salvation has come in a way for which you have no category. It does not fit your worldview. That, brother, is the point.

 

[Joseph77]

I told @Steve Owen that I would explain my view of the Atonement. I did not have a chance until now. Below is outlined my view. I know @Steve Owen , @Enoch111 , and certainly @David Taylor (probably a few more) take issue with my position but at least you can see where I do stand (we've been caught up in what I do not believe that I have not articulated what I do believe).
I believe that because of the love that God had for us Jesus Christ gave his body for us by the will of God (His body for our bodies and His soul for our souls), that Jesus suffered and died for our sakes, that we might be saved.
I believe that Jesus endured to deliver up His own flesh to corruption

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Acts 13:37 ►
SUM PIC XRF DEV STU
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

New Living Translation
No, it was a reference to someone else—someone whom God raised and whose body did not decay.

English Standard Version
but he whom God raised up did not see corruption.
====================================================================
Study Bible
In Pisidian Antioch
…36For when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep. His body was buried with his fathers and saw decay.


But the One whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.
Therefore let it be known to you, brothers, that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.…
Berean Study Bible · Download

 

[John Caldwell]

=================================================================
Acts 13:37 ►
SUM PIC XRF DEV STU
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

New Living Translation
No, it was a reference to someone else—someone whom God raised and whose body did not decay.

English Standard Version
but he whom God raised up did not see corruption.
====================================================================
Study Bible
In Pisidian Antioch
…36For when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep. His body was buried with his fathers and saw decay.


But the One whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.
Therefore let it be known to you, brothers, that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.…
Berean Study Bible · Download

I never begrudge any their beliefs (even if borrowed from a "study Bible"). We can all quote people who support our views, and we can all call the other person wrong.

But who cares? Scripture is what matters.

 

[Joseph77]

I never begrudge any their beliefs (even if borrowed from a "study Bible"). We can all quote people who support our views, and we can all call the other person wrong.

But who cares? Scripture is what matters.

Scripture is what you quoted in my quote. You don't care ?

 

[John Caldwell]

Scripture is what you quoted in my quote. You don't care ?

Scripture, yes. I agree with the Bibl e but not with @Steve Owen 's interpretation of Scripture. That is what I have been saying (in my post you quoted). I believe Steve us wrong and has allowed tradition to inform interpretation when he should have been more careful with the text of the Word.

I am sure he feels the same about me.

 

[Steve Owen]

I am sure he feels the same about me.

You are correct. One of us keeps claiming to follow the 'Classic view,' and might therefore be considered to be following tradition.
That someone is not I.

 

[John Caldwell]

You are correct. One of us keeps claiming to follow the 'Classic view,' and might therefore be considered to be following tradition.
That someone is not I.

My view is Christus Victor, which like PSA is a tradition of Christian thought. I did not mean to imply that you held that view (I know that you affirm PSA).

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Now what the Lord Jesus Christ experienced was the feeling, as a Man, of being forsaken by God. He experienced it possibly for six hours, but more probably during the three hours of darkness. What it means to me is that because He has experienced it, I never will.

<<What it means to me is that because He has experienced it, I never will.>>

Now <what> the Lord Jesus Christ <experienced> was no <feeling> <as a Man> merely, but what He, Christ the Lord <experienced> as Jesus "God-in-Christ" Jesus "God-with-us" Jesus "the Son-of-God" Jesus "the Son-of-Man", was the full realisation of in body soul and mind of "The All-in-all-Fulfilling-Fullness-of-God". Thus 'in Full Fellowship' of Father Son and Holy Spirit Jesus alive and conscious, willing and desiring, "according to the Scriptures" to obey and fulfil <experienced> "all that the prophets have spoken concerning Him .. How the Christ ought to have suffered THESE THINGS AND ENTER INTO HIS GLORY". It is HERE that the Scriptures declare,

Mark 15:34,35
καὶ τῇ ἐνάτῃ ὥρᾳ ἐβόησεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς φωνῇ μεγάλῃ
At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,

Ἐλωῒ Ἐλωῒ λαμὰ σαβαχθανεί; ὅ ἐστιν μεθερμηνευόμενον
Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachtani? which is, being interpreted,

Ὁ Θεός μου ὁ Θεός μου, εἰς τί ἐγκατέλιπές με;
My God, my God, why hast thou separated / sanctified (forsaken) me?

Matthew 27:46,47
περὶ δὲ τὴν ἐνάτην ὥραν ἀνεβόησεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς φωνῇ μεγάλῃ λέγων
about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,

Ἡλεὶ Ἡλεὶ λεμὰ σαβαχθανεί; τοῦτ’ ἔστιν
Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani? that is to say,

Θεέ μου θεέ μου, ἵνα τί με ἐγκατέλιπες;
My God, my God, why hast thou separated / sanctified (forsaken) me?

Jesus never was forsaken by God, He experienced it for no moment in time that the Presence of God watched not over Him, even in death and the grave. What it means to me is that because Jesus never experienced the absence of either the Father or Holy Spirit, I never will. Jesus, dying, giving into his Father's hands his spirit In Full Fellowship of Father Son and Holy Spirit "ENTERED INTO HIS GLORY".

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

what did Jesus experience that we will not?

…because He was the Son of Mary? EVERYTHING what He experienced that we NEVER WOULD OR COULD because He was the Son of God!

 

[John Caldwell]

What did Jesus experience that we EVER WOULD OR COULD?

Jesus experienced the full weight on the powers of darkness crashing down on Him, the wages of sin, yet He was without sin.

Christ experienced the ultimate injustuce as the sinless one taking on our infirmity, the wages we deserve.

 

[Steve Owen]

Θεέ μου θεέ μου, ἵνα τί με ἐγκατέλιπες;
My God, my God, why hast thou separated / sanctified (forsaken) me?

Enkataleipo means to forsake or abandon (Acts of the Apostles 2:27; 2 Corinthians 4:9; 2 Timothy 4:10, 16; Hebrews 10:25; 13:5). I do not see where it ever means 'sanctify' in the N.T. The Greek word used invariably is hagiazo.

 

[John Caldwell]

Enkataleipo means to forsake or abandon (Acts of the Apostles 2:27; 2 Corinthians 4:9; 2 Timothy 4:10, 16; Hebrews 10:25; 13:5). I do not see where it ever means 'sanctify' in the N.T. The Greek word used invariably is hagiazo.

I agree (not with your application of "forsake" as I believe Christ was forsaken to suffer under the powers of evil as He was not delivered from death rather than abandoned by God via separation).

But "forsake" means forsake. Not sanctify.

We can debate what the word means in context of the Cross, but I do not think it fair to invent meanings. There is no context where the word can mean to sanctify.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Jesus experienced the full weight on the powers of darkness crashing down on Him, the wages of sin, yet He was without sin.

Christ experienced the ultimate injustuce as the sinless one taking on our infirmity, the wages we deserve.

Which we never would or could.

 

[John Caldwell]

Which we never would or could.

Exactly. That is what Christ experienced that we cannot because He is God and He is sinless and holy.

The Father sent the Son into the world to save the world. The world killed the Son. The Father justified the Son, raised the Son, and glorified the Son. And as meany as believe in Him will be saved. They will suffer the wages of sin but they will be resurrected as sin and death holds no claim over Christ.

 

[Willie T]

JonC,
Hi, I had almost forgotten you were here.

 

[John Caldwell]

JonC,
Hi, I had almost forgotten you were here.

I've been lurking. I'm a lurker.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Enkataleipo means to forsake or abandon (Acts of the Apostles 2:27; 2 Corinthians 4:9; 2 Timothy 4:10, 16; Hebrews 10:25; 13:5). I do not see where it ever means 'sanctify' in the N.T. The Greek word used invariably is hagiazo.

I respect your argument. Nevertheless you admit yourself, <<I do not see where it ever means 'sanctify' in the N.T.>> Reality however is that you do not see where it ever is translated, 'sanctify' in the N.T..

In Acts 2:27 quoting Psalm 16(LXX15):10, "Thou shalt not leave [ἐνκαταλείψεις] my soul in hell" - "leave" - 'azab' - commit, fail, leave et al and in Acts 2:27 specifically "NOT leave" viz., "NOT forsake .. in hell".

2 Corinthians 4:9 confirms exactly the same concerning Jesus, suffering dying death, saying to His Father—ALL THE WHILE WITH HIM—, "I give my spirit INTO thy hands". Where or how did the Father <forsake> his Son?! NEVER! If the Father forsook his Son it would have been as good as having “sent” Jesus into eternal oblivion.

In 2 Timothy 4:10Δημᾶς γάρ με ἐγκατέλιπεν ἀγαπήσας τὸν νῦν αἰῶνα, that Demas ‘forsook” Paul in actual fact means that Demas “loved the world” instead of Paul. You certainly will not claim that the Father no longer loved his Son so He ‘forsook’ Him “left” Him, “sent” Him as it were into the pit – ‘left Him in the lurch’! One cannot ever accuse the Father of disloyalty or unfaithfulness. Well, that is what the word ‘forsake’ essentially means and unavoidably implies— as in treacherousness, treason!

In Hebrews 10:25 ἐγκαταλείποντες means “neglect” - 25μὴ ἐγκαταλείποντες τὴν ἐπισυναγωγὴν ἑαυτῶν, Don’t neglect your Assembly. Now either the Father ‘forsook’ Jesus all the way or He did not ‘forsake’ Him at all, so GIVING the word ἐγκαταλείποντες the meaning—TRANSLATING it with ‘forsake’, ‘neglect’ in Hebrews 10:25 which is halve-way ‘forsake’, is not possible or legitimate.

In Hebrews 13:5 it is written that God the Father, “will never leave Thee, nor forsake [ἐγκαταλίπω] thee” the Son, Jesus, “6So that we, may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.” Now HOW can we destroy the trustworthiness of God’s Word and directly contrary God’s assurances and promises true to his very Being which He vowed from eternity “concerning the Christ HOW THAT HE OUGHT TO HAVE SUFFERED”, ‘translate’?

No we do not translate, we mutilate God’s Written Word.

God from eternity Counselled and Unilaterally in Full Fellowship of Father Son and Holy Spirit Covenanted—, “Behold, THE MAN”, “JESUS KING OF THE JEWS”, would suffer and DIE—, “GOD in CHRIST” “GOD with us” “GOD the SON”.