What if you are wrong?

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aspen

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I think these are great posts, thank you everyone.

Learning is life-long for me. I am usually wrong everyday so I can make improvements as often as I recognize my errors.

People who have been posting here for years have been witness to my errors.

One of the red flags signaling error for me is seeing it in others. My negative emotional reaction towards BoLs posts reminds me that I have been guilty of the same arrogance - reference my past Catholic thread for examples. I think it is a blessing to see mistakes and make changes.

Amen
 
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ScottA

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So you are confident that the doctrines you hold to be true are, in fact, without a silver of doubt, true?
There is no room for any mistake in judgment, on your part?
Any questioning of correct doctrine by yourself or others is a direct ticket to Hell?

Having this standard for yourself, how do you confront people who you believe to be wrong? Is there any consideration for the impact your truth might have on their faith? How do you predict they will respond?
This too is good.

The history of God's people and the world, should tell us that we have no reason to believe we are right in what we "believe." It is what we "believe" that is suspect when it comes to being right or wrong. On the other hand, what we [actually] "know" is a different matter. But if we only "believe", we cannot say that we "know."

If we only stood our ground on what we "know", the world would be a different place. But...that is not the nature of the fallen and the wicked. Even the well meaning grossly error in confusing "belief" with "knowledge", as was the case even with Peter, whom Christ referred to as Satan for his actions. We would do well to take that as a lesson.

I wonder what would happen even here on Christianity Board, if only what we [actually] "know" would show in black, and all else would not show?
 

Wormwood

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Good topic. I think it is very important to have strong convictions as well as a strong sense of humility.
I think it is important to have strong convictions because we live in a world that can often be "so open-minded that your brains fall out." We need to be able to test things and grow in our understanding so we can approve the things that are good.
At the same time, we need to have a strong sense of humility because we are all dust and are told that we will be judged according to the standard we use. If that is the case, I want to offer a great deal of grace and an eagerness to listen to others. It is certainly easier said than done. I know I can often stand to be more humble and gracious than I act. This forum is a good reminder of the importance of considering others before yourself (cf. Phil. 2:3).
 

Marymog

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The Immaculate Conception. Defined in 1854, I think. And also, I think, this means the Catholic Church considers this doctrine to be a teaching extending back to the start of the Church.
Please correct my history if I'm wrong.
So, from a Protestant perspective, this doctrine is not only false but not even a teaching which goes back 2000 years.

I do want to be corrected about getting the facts right concerning your Church. Don't want BOL accusing me of lying....
Hi tabletalk,

I don't ever recall defending The Immaculate Conception doctrine. However, it makes sense to me and I will give it my best effort to defend it:

The doctrine is, in general, that Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin. Sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul. Original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was in her soul.

That statement makes sense to ME because Jesus (God) who is pure/clean (sinless) was to be born FROM her. I believe that nothing pure/clean (sinless) can come from something that is IMPURE or UNCLEAN. It is logically IMPOSSIBLE.

Scripture says that Mary was "full of grace". That means she could not receive any more grace from God. You and I have grace given to us at times but we are never FULL of grace.

Mary wasn't the only person born/created immaculately (no original sin). Jesus, Adam and Eve was also created/born with no original sin.
Adam and Eve later sinned. NOWHERE does scripture say that Mary ever sinned. And anyone that says she did would be adding words to scripture.

Those who die before the age of reason and who are mentally deficient NEVER SIN (Their ORIGINAL SIN could be washed away in baptism). Therefor, it is POSSIBLE to be human, then die, and never have committed a sin while on this earth. That grace (if you will) is bestowed on them, why can't it be bestowed on THE MOTHER OF GOD who was full of grace??

You are correct when you say that the Immaculate Conception doctrine was DEFINED (key word) in 1854, that does not mean it wasn't accepted before then. RCC doctrines are defined formally only when there is a controversy that needs to be cleared up or when the faithful can be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to some already-existing belief. (condensed sentence from catholic.com)

The Immaculate Conception CONCEPT was first written about within the first 400 years of Christ death. The Trinity doctrine and the decision on what books are "scripture" (our current bible) did not develop until the 4th century also. Does that mean we should not accept the Trinity doctrine or what books are in our bible? The Church gave us the Trinity doctrine and we don't question it. Why would we question this doctrine?

Many of the Church Fathers wrote about it in concept (they didn't necessarily use the words immaculate conception) and even Calvin and Luther supported the doctrine.

I understand the doctrine and agree with it, however, if I were to disagree with it I don't think I would go to hell.

Those that are against it today have thrown out almost 2,000 years of Christian history.

My two cents worth
 

aspen

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I suspect Mary remained childlike and therefore not culpable for sins committed during her lifetime. As far as original sin? She was forgiven in utero, but I could be wrong.
 

ScottA

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The only way I could find out that I'm wrong would be if Jesus Himself came down from Heaven and told me that I'm wrong. And He would have to prove that He's Jesus by showing me angels and by reviving someone who has been dead for 4 days like He did to Lazarus. And if He could prove that He is Jesus and He said that the doctrines are wrong, then I'd ask Him for forgiveness and tremble as I awaited my punishment.
Very good!

The other way that we can find out we are wrong, is by the outpouring of the spirit upon all flesh during these times. However, the war in spirit continues, and just as there are revelations of truth by the Holy Spirit leading us unto all truth throughout the course of time, there are also lying spirits like roaming lions waiting to devour. Thus Paul counselled to take up the whole armor of God.

As well, we are to test all spirits. In the testing process, all that glitters is not gold. The best test, is to take all matters to God in prayer, and specifically ask that He make the truth known to you. But it is not multiple choice. If you have to choose, that is an indication that God has not revealed the truth to you, for He does this in His timing, not ours.
 
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aspen

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If Jesus made a house call every time I was wrong, I would have to carry him on my back.

It does beg the question: is being wrong that big of a deal? is it such a rare event that is requires the second coming of Christ to get us to become open for correction?
 

FHII

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I think these are great posts, thank you everyone.

Learning is life-long for me. I am usually wrong everyday so I can make improvements as often as I recognize my errors.

People who have been posting here for years have been witness to my errors.

One of the red flags signaling error for me is seeing it in others. My negative emotional reaction towards BoLs posts reminds me that I have been guilty of the same arrogance - reference my past Catholic thread for examples. I think it is a blessing to see mistakes and make changes.

Amen

Aspen,

Have not you and I banged heads hard before? Yet I was happy to see you back. Time heals.

I don't know what happened with you and BoL. I put BoL on my ignore list. Not because of doctrinal differences but because I will not stand for personal attacks. I am done with all that.

Jesus had a lot to say about forgiveness. We learn, and move on. Nothing should be charged to your account.
 
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FHII

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If Jesus made a house call every time I was wrong, I would have to carry him on my back.

It does beg the question: is being wrong that big of a deal? is it such a rare event that is requires the second coming of Christ to get us to become open for correction?


No. Staying with the error is. I blame no one for fighting for rheir point as we shoyld not be reeds shaking in the wind.

But when you are proven wrong... Fess up. I rejoice with them that learn from their error.

And I will deapise and rebuke harshly those that revel in someone's error when they admit it.
 
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aspen

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I think people have to be able to recognize their error before they can make changes. Often people think that pointing out error with scripture, reason, and facts is enough, but it takes much more.

When sarcasm, mocking and general disregard for others is included in the correction, there is little chance the person receiving the correction will see anything else
 
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FHII

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I think people have to be able to recognize their error before they can make changes. Often people think that pointing out error with scripture, reason, and facts is enough, but it takes much more.

When sarcasm, mocking and general disregard for others is included in the correction, there is little chance the person receiving the correction will see anything else


Sigh... The Bible is a big book. Its easy to find a single verse to support your stance. But you got to take in everything it says. I say that because it isn't easy. So someone can come up with a doctrine based on one verse that when further explored isn't accurate. It happened with me very recently and my adversary graciously didn't even make light of it.

Sarcism, mocking, rude comments... I just won't put up with it. If someone is rude to others I want to rebuke them , but I got to let them stand up for their selves.

Yet... If someone is rude to Aspen, I take note of that and they are on my short list. Even if I agree with their point and not Aspen's point.

Still quick to forgive though. But a lot of people are on my short list. Just because of the way they treat others.
 

tabletalk

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Original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was in her soul.

Thanks for your detailed response. I guess the #1 issue to me is the statement: "it never was in her soul." I see, and understand, the reasoning used to conclude that she was without original sin. I reject the authority of your church, though, and so reject the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

Again, I appreciate your effort to educate me on Catholic teaching.
 

Marymog

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Your very welcome. I appreciate your kind response and love this topic you have chosen.

I guess all of us have to accept some kind of authority. Some accept themselves as their own authority, others accept an established church.

God bless
 

bbyrd009

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One of the red flags signaling error for me is seeing it in others. My negative emotional reaction towards BoLs posts reminds me that I have been guilty of the same arrogance - reference my past Catholic thread for examples. I think it is a blessing to see mistakes and make changes.
ha, funny you say this, i persist with him myself because i recognize that i must still have some issues if he is bugging me. The enemy is always within; expecting the world to change never seems to be the right answer imo.
 
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lforrest

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Unless I were also taught a believable alternative that also fully chimes with the rest of scripture I would totally forget the doubt within a few days. If some believable point came up I would backtrack my understanding until the new point could be assimilated.

This is assuming that the message is not invalidated by the messenger. When the same people end up agreeing with me it makes me doubt myself.
 
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Peanut

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if you discovered that the doctrines you have defended for years are wrong, how would you respond?

Would it call everything you believe about God into question?

Would you admit you were wrong to yourself? Others?
In this hypothetical, how would I discover my faith was in error? In this life? Or after?
 

Helen

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If Jesus made a house call every time I was wrong, I would have to carry him on my back.

It does beg the question: is being wrong that big of a deal? is it such a rare event that is requires the second coming of Christ to get us to become open for correction?

:) I agree, I do NOT think God is as hard and fast on " right and wrong"..as we are!!
I think when we all get Home, God will be much more interested in our heart, in our motives, and our faithfulness, much more than checking if we got everything right, with all T's crossed, and all i's dotted correctly.

I love your attitude, so many, even on this site, have the " I and only I am right.." It is always refreshing to find Christians with the spirit of humility evident. Its a good testimony.
I do not believe God is looking for that kind of thing ( correct doctrine) ....but a soft and teachable heart.
every blessing...
 
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aspen

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Sigh... The Bible is a big book. Its easy to find a single verse to support your stance. But you got to take in everything it says. I say that because it isn't easy. So someone can come up with a doctrine based on one verse that when further explored isn't accurate. It happened with me very recently and my adversary graciously didn't even make light of it.

Sarcism, mocking, rude comments... I just won't put up with it. If someone is rude to others I want to rebuke them , but I got to let them stand up for their selves.

Yet... If someone is rude to Aspen, I take note of that and they are on my short list. Even if I agree with their point and not Aspen's point.

Still quick to forgive though. But a lot of people are on my short list. Just because of the way they treat others.

You've taught me a lot of the years, FHII. I am a better Christian for knowing you.
 
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aspen

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The Evil Wood

'It was still dark when I began to be aware of a far-off, confused, rushing noise, mingled with faint cries. It grew and grew until a tumult as of gathering multitudes filled the wood. On all sides at once the sounds drew nearer; the spot where I lay seemed the centre of a commotion that extended throughout the forest. I scarce moved hand or foot lest I should betray my presence to hostile things.

The moon at length approached the forest, and came slowly into it: with her first gleam the noises increased to a deafening uproar, and I began to see dim shapes about me. As she ascended and grew brighter, the noises became yet louder, and the shapes clearer. A furious battle was raging around me. Wild cries and roars of rage, shock of onset, struggle prolonged, all mingled with words articulate, surged in my ears. Curses and credos, snarls and sneers, laughter and mockery, sacred names and howls of hate, came huddling in chaotic interpenetration. Skeletons and phantoms fought in maddest confusion. Swords swept through the phantoms: they only shivered. Maces crashed on the skeletons, shattering them hideously: not one fell or ceased to fight, so long as a single joint held two bones together. Bones of men and horses lay scattered and heaped; grinding and crunching them under foot fought the skeletons. Everywhere charged the bone-gaunt white steeds; everywhere on foot or on wind-blown misty battle-horses, raged and ravened and raved the indestructible spectres; weapons and hoofs clashed and crushed; while skeleton jaws and phantom-throats swelled the deafening tumult with the war-cry of every opinion, bad or good, that had bred strife, injustice, cruelty in any world. The holiest words went with the most hating blow. Lie-distorted truths flew hurtling in the wind of javelins and bones. Every moment some one would turn against his comrades, and fight more wildly than before, The TRUTH! THE TRUTH! still his cry. One I noted who wheeled ever in a circle, and smote on all sides. Wearied out, a pair would sit for a minute side by side, then rise and renew the fierce combat. None stooped to comfort the fallen, or stepped wide to spare him.......

Such was the battle of the dead, which I saw and heard as I lay under the tree.'

George MacDonald, Lilith
Within the public domain
 
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