what irritates the crud out of me about "Christians" so-called

[Hidden In Him]

Is this site not also full of Protestants whom do the exact same thing about their favorite pet topics?
Do you likewise call them "cultists" and all?

Numerous groups have attempted to do it, and I have opposed every one of them. If Charismatics were to do so, I might be tempted to side with it, but not at the expense of there no longer being free dialogue and people of all other persuasions feeling comfortable about sharing their views.

And no, I don't.

Unless the problems resurface that got me involved with this one to start with, I'm done with this thread.

God bless,
Hidden In Him

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Numerous groups have attempted to do it, and I have opposed every one of them. If Charismatics were to do so, I might be tempted to side with it, but not at the expense of there no longer being free dialogue and people of all other persuasions feeling comfortable about sharing their views.

And no, I don't.

Unless the problems resurface that got me involved with this one to start with, I'm done with this thread.

God bless,
Hidden In Him

Ok, have a nice day. Tis the season for celebrate the birth of our Lord!

 

[farouk]

I wanna say that some Christians of different denominations or backgrounds do a great job of agreeing to disagree in regards to their differences

But what the op is saying is also true. Its part of our sin nature, that we often want to be right. We want to believe our way is the right way. I struggle with it sometimes but I do my best to listen to others who have a different perspective and like Paul said test all things

Many of my views align with those who call themselves Calvinists, but truly i do not want to be called a Calvinist. I dont want any label except for "Follower of Christ"

@JazzyJeff15 Re. the term you mentioned, it's interesting that in John 6.37 there seems to be an indication of both God's sovereignty and human responsibility right in the same verse:

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

The simplicity of the Christian profession is excellent.

 

[JazzyJeff15]

@JazzyJeff15 Re. the term you mentioned, it's interesting that in John 6.37 there seems to be an indication of both God's sovereignty and human responsibility right in the same verse:

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

The simplicity of the Christian profession is excellent.

I certainly see God's sovereignty in that verse but to be truthful at least as of now I dont see human responsibility. I know i was drawn in but I give the Lord the credit for not only drawing me in but also giving me the hunger and desire to respond, as well as the persistence to stay in the word daily. How much of those 3 things (hunger, desire and persistence) am I responsible for? At least at this juncture I believe it was all or at the very least mostly God.

I dont want to say anything conclusively because I have had to learn that the heart is deceitful. But perhaps as I will have a better idea as I finish reading the bible. Im in the book of John on chapter 17, I found a Pastor named Nate Holdridge through a podcast app that spends between a half hour to an hour teaching each chapter. So Im thankful to be learning alot everyday. I also listen to a handful of other pastors (like John Macarthur, Tim Keller, Derek Prince to name a few) and I also just started going to church this past Sunday. So i know theres still much to learn and Id be interested in reading your response. I find this very interesting because i know theres very intelligent minds on both sides of the debate

 

[farouk]

I certainly see God's sovereignty in that verse but to be truthful at least as of now I dont see human responsibility. I know i was drawn in but I give the Lord the credit for not only drawing me in but also giving me the hunger and desire to respond, as well as the persistence to stay in the word daily. How much of those 3 things (hunger, desire and persistence) am I responsible for? At least at this juncture I believe it was all or at the very least mostly God.

I dont want to say anything conclusively because I have had to learn that the heart is deceitful. But perhaps as I will have a better idea as I finish reading the bible. Im in the book of John on chapter 17, I found a Pastor named Nate Holdridge through a podcast app that spends between a half hour to an hour teaching each chapter. So Im thankful to be learning alot everyday. I also listen to a handful of other pastors (like John Macarthur, Tim Keller, Derek Prince to name a few) and I also just started going to church this past Sunday. So i know theres still much to learn and Id be interested in reading your response. I find this very interesting because i know theres very intelligent minds on both sides of the debate

@JazzyJeff15 John 17 is truly wonderful; and John's First Epistle complements it. Good to look that what Scripture says rather than to read logical systems into it.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Michaelvpardo said:
The Bible is full of verses that imply Jesus'. equality with God, but only the elect can recieve them because that is the dividing line between new Spiritual birth and the old carnal nature. You either have His Spirit or you don't and His Spirit doesn't deny that Jesus is Lord. The Holy Spirit is the witness of God, not some cult.[/Quote\]

I disagree that there are scriptures that imply that the Only Begotten Son of God is equal to God. I believe what 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 says. I haven't found any scripture that even imply Jesus is equal to God. Anyone can think of me any way they want by saying something like I'm not one of the elect or I don't have God's Holy Spirit, but the only thing I think when people say such things like that is that they don't want me to go by all the inspired scriptures that God had written down that teach about Jesus Christ.
Many people who believe in the Trinity have tried in the past to say that there are scriptures that prove Jesus equality with God. One of those scriptures was Philippians 2:5,6 which they said proves that Jesus is equal to God. The problem is when I read that scripture I see that those that tried to prove Jesus equality with God with that scripture, I only see they're taking that scripture out of context to try to prove what they believe. Now I certainly believe that people have the right to how they choose to see scripture but I do have the right to disagree with them, especially if I have a legitimate reason why I disagree with them. What I see regarding Philippians 2:5,6 is that it's telling us to have the same mental attitude of humbleness that Jesus had. Why do I say that? Because at Philippians 2:3,4 is telling us not to do anything out of contentiousness or out of egotism but with humility consider others superior to you, because we're to look out not for our own interests only, but also for the interests of others, then verses 5, 6 of Philippians chapter 2 tells us the follow the example of Jesus Christ concerning humbleness saying, who although he was in God's form he never snatched at the idea he was equal to God. We are to follow the example of Jesus and think others as superior to us.
That scripture at John 14:9-11 if you're using that scripture to try to prove these scriptures prove by implication that Jesus is equal to God then you failed. I believe these scriptures should stay in context of previous verses such as John 14:5-9. In these scriptures Jesus isn't saying he's God or equal to him. Jesus said no one comes to the Father except through him. So Jesus faithfully represented his Father while on Earth, but that doesn't mean Jesus is God or that he is equal to him not even by implication. In other scriptures Jesus said he spoke God's word to people and did his Father's works. Like at John 12:44-49 Jesus said whoever puts faith in him puts faith in the person who sent him and whoever sees him sees the one who sent him. Now think about that, especially since these scriptures show us that God sent the Only Begotten Son of God to mankind. The fact that the Only Begotten Son of God was sent to mankind proves he's not equal to God. Jesus and God had a Father and Son relationship. In a Father and Son relationship the Father is older and superior.

 

[Guestman]

Truth has no "statue of limitations", nor does the expose' of falsehoods have any time constraints, for the rebellion in the garden of Eden has sent reverberations throughout mankind for some 6,000 years and its deadly effects that has caused the deaths of an estimated 20 billion + persons that is yet to be rectified, but Jehovah God has set an appointed time to deal with the first lie that set mankind on a downward spiral towards hate, sickness and death.(Rom 5:12)

How many really want the "truth" to succeed ? How many really want the falsehoods, the lies to cease being told, such as the Trinity, hellfire, the immortality of the soul, the cross, a clergy-laity class, purgatory, that all good people go to heaven, that the earth is to be burned up, that politics is "okay" in Jehovah's sight, etc ?

This is why Jehovah God has set a time table to completely eradicate the falsehoods, for David wrote: "O Jehovah, who may be a guest in your tent ? Who may reside in your holy mountain ? The one who is walking faultlessly, practicing what is right and speaking the truth in his heart."(Ps 15:1, 2)

Not far into the future, the seat of religious lies, Babylon the Great, will have this done to it: "He (or angel) said to me: “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute (of false religion) is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues. And the ten horns (or member nations of the United Nations) that you saw and the (scarlet-colored) wild beast (the United Nations, Rev 17:3), these will hate the prostitute (that has kept people in a stupor with its false religious teachings that are like sex, see Rev 17:1, 2) and will make her devastated and naked, and they will eat up her flesh and completely burn her with fire. For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, yes, to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished."(Rev 17:15-17)

Once this is accomplished, the religious lies will cease, for Revelation 19 says: "After this (or Babylon the Great's total destruction) I heard what seemed to be a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah ! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God, because his judgments are true and righteous. For he has executed judgment on the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her sexual immorality (or false teachings that have been seductive like sex), and he has avenged the blood of his slaves that is on her hands.” And right away for the second time they said: “Praise Jah ! And the smoke from her goes on ascending forever and ever (or all the "damage" that the false religions of the world caused will not be forgotten by Jehovah's loyal servants)."(Rev 19:1-3)

 

[michaelvpardo]

They don’t deny Christ is Lord, just that he is not God, but the son of God, there is only one God and one Jesus Christ, the son of God, they are not one in the same.

And I don’t deem them a cult, why do you may I ask?

LORD is generally either adonai or Yod He Vaw He in the original language of scripture. Anyone could be an Adonai as a ruler, but there's only one Yod He Vaw He (Yah Havah) which Jesus identified with, the God of Israel.

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Any religion that trys to prostelyze born again Christians to draw them away to dead works and a righteousness based upon self rather than faith in Jesus Christ, God incarnate (in flesh), is a cult. Cults exist because the founders exalted themselves against Christ.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Michaelvpardo said:
The Bible is full of verses that imply Jesus'. equality with God, but only the elect can recieve them because that is the dividing line between new Spiritual birth and the old carnal nature. You either have His Spirit or you don't and His Spirit doesn't deny that Jesus is Lord. The Holy Spirit is the witness of God, not some cult.[/Quote\]

I disagree that there are scriptures that imply that the Only Begotten Son of God is equal to God. I believe what 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 says. I haven't found any scripture that even imply Jesus is equal to God. Anyone can think of me any way they want by saying something like I'm not one of the elect or I don't have God's Holy Spirit, but the only thing I think when people say such things like that is that they don't want me to go by all the inspired scriptures that God had written down that teach about Jesus Christ.
Many people who believe in the Trinity have tried in the past to say that there are scriptures that prove Jesus equality with God. One of those scriptures was Philippians 2:5,6 which they said proves that Jesus is equal to God. The problem is when I read that scripture I see that those that tried to prove Jesus equality with God with that scripture, I only see they're taking that scripture out of context to try to prove what they believe. Now I certainly believe that people have the right to how they choose to see scripture but I do have the right to disagree with them, especially if I have a legitimate reason why I disagree with them. What I see regarding Philippians 2:5,6 is that it's telling us to have the same mental attitude of humbleness that Jesus had. Why do I say that? Because at Philippians 2:3,4 is telling us not to do anything out of contentiousness or out of egotism but with humility consider others superior to you, because we're to look out not for our own interests only, but also for the interests of others, then verses 5, 6 of Philippians chapter 2 tells us the follow the example of Jesus Christ concerning humbleness saying, who although he was in God's form he never snatched at the idea he was equal to God. We are to follow the example of Jesus and think others as superior to us.
That scripture at John 14:9-11 if you're using that scripture to try to prove these scriptures prove by implication that Jesus is equal to God then you failed. I believe these scriptures should stay in context of previous verses such as John 14:5-9. In these scriptures Jesus isn't saying he's God or equal to him. Jesus said no one comes to the Father except through him. So Jesus faithfully represented his Father while on Earth, but that doesn't mean Jesus is God or that he is equal to him not even by implication. In other scriptures Jesus said he spoke God's word to people and did his Father's works. Like at John 12:44-49 Jesus said whoever puts faith in him puts faith in the person who sent him and whoever sees him sees the one who sent him. Now think about that, especially since these scriptures show us that God sent the Only Begotten Son of God to mankind. The fact that the Only Begotten Son of God was sent to mankind proves he's not equal to God. Jesus and God had a Father and Son relationship. In a Father and Son relationship the Father is older and superior.

You can disagree all you want, but that just makes you wrong and carnal minded. You don't understand God, the nature of spirit, or the word.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Actually, I think some of them could be if they truly love God and are simply deceived. I'm not sure JWs afford the same leeway, however. If I am reading them correctly, anyone who is not a Jehovahs Witness has no hope of salvation (though I could be wrong on that).

They don't know who's saved. They have no assurance of salvation. They teach that only 144, 000 will be saved. No cult teaches an assurance of salvation and that maintains the power and authority of the leadership (excommunication leads to damnation in the cults.) This is also why evangelicals consider Roman Catholics cultic (their doctrine is that there is no salvation without the church.)

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

You can disagree all you want, but that just makes you wrong and carnal minded. You don't understand God, the nature of spirit, or the word.

Actually it means you're wrong and carnal minded, but I know you won't believe that about yourself just as I don't believe it when you say that about me.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

You can disagree all you want, but that just makes you wrong and carnal minded. You don't understand God, the nature of spirit, or the word.

Actually it means you're wrong and carnal minded, but I know you won't believe that about yourself just as I don't believe it when you say that about me.

How about we all stop calling each other names, and instead 1) invest you energy into being a better disciple of Christ yourself (something we all need), and 2) if you desire to bring somebody else to Christ then share things about Christ and bring those to good things to the table.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

How about we all stop calling each other names, and instead 1) invest you energy into being a better disciple of Christ yourself (something we all need), and 2) if you desire to bring somebody else to Christ then share things about Christ and bring those to good things to the table.

You're right I shouldn't call anyone names, I let my imperfect flesh get the best of me sometimes, sorry.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Actually it means you're wrong and carnal minded, but I know you won't believe that about yourself just as I don't believe it when you say that about me.

Of course, but I'm the Lord's servant and He's given me spiritual gifts. What spiritual gift did He give you when you were born again?

 

[michaelvpardo]

How about we all stop calling each other names, and instead 1) invest you energy into being a better disciple of Christ yourself (something we all need), and 2) if you desire to bring somebody else to Christ then share things about Christ and bring those to good things to the table.

I don't see any name calling here at all. Just a carnal religious man arguing with a spiritual man who doesn't give a flip about religion. We've both been extremely civil despite not being in agreement about our God, the LORD, Jesus the Christ.
You do know that there are 2 different types of human beings on the planet, right? Some of us have received the Holy Spirit by faith in the Lord, others never received the gift because they've never asked in faith.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Truth has no "statue of limitations", nor does the expose' of falsehoods have any time constraints, for the rebellion in the garden of Eden has sent reverberations throughout mankind for some 6,000 years and its deadly effects that has caused the deaths of an estimated 20 billion + persons that is yet to be rectified, but Jehovah God has set an appointed time to deal with the first lie that set mankind on a downward spiral towards hate, sickness and death.(Rom 5:12)

How many really want the "truth" to succeed ? How many really want the falsehoods, the lies to cease being told, such as the Trinity, hellfire, the immortality of the soul, the cross, a clergy-laity class, purgatory, that all good people go to heaven, that the earth is to be burned up, that politics is "okay" in Jehovah's sight, etc ?

This is why Jehovah God has set a time table to completely eradicate the falsehoods, for David wrote: "O Jehovah, who may be a guest in your tent ? Who may reside in your holy mountain ? The one who is walking faultlessly, practicing what is right and speaking the truth in his heart."(Ps 15:1, 2)

Not far into the future, the seat of religious lies, Babylon the Great, will have this done to it: "He (or angel) said to me: “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute (of false religion) is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues. And the ten horns (or member nations of the United Nations) that you saw and the (scarlet-colored) wild beast (the United Nations, Rev 17:3), these will hate the prostitute (that has kept people in a stupor with its false religious teachings that are like sex, see Rev 17:1, 2) and will make her devastated and naked, and they will eat up her flesh and completely burn her with fire. For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, yes, to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished."(Rev 17:15-17)

Once this is accomplished, the religious lies will cease, for Revelation 19 says: "After this (or Babylon the Great's total destruction) I heard what seemed to be a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah ! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God, because his judgments are true and righteous. For he has executed judgment on the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her sexual immorality (or false teachings that have been seductive like sex), and he has avenged the blood of his slaves that is on her hands.” And right away for the second time they said: “Praise Jah ! And the smoke from her goes on ascending forever and ever (or all the "damage" that the false religions of the world caused will not be forgotten by Jehovah's loyal servants)."(Rev 19:1-3)

Funny.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I don't see any name calling here at all. Just a carnal religious man arguing with a spiritual man who doesn't give a flip about religion. We've both been extremely civil despite not being in agreement about our God, the LORD, Jesus the Christ.
You do know that there are 2 different types of human beings on the planet, right? Some of us have received the Holy Spirit by faith in the Lord, others never received the gift because they've never asked in faith.

I don't see any name calling here at all. Just a carnal religious man arguing with a spiritual man who doesn't give a flip about religion. We've both been extremely civil despite not being in agreement about our God, the LORD, Jesus the Christ.
You do know that there are 2 different types of human beings on the planet, right? Some of us have received the Holy Spirit by faith in the Lord, others never received the gift because they've never asked in faith.

*deep sigh and head shake *
Michael, this is something we foundationally we’re probably never going to see eye to eye on. So I’ll just wish you a nice day and a marry Christmas.

 

[michaelvpardo]

@JazzyJeff15 Re. the term you mentioned, it's interesting that in John 6.37 there seems to be an indication of both God's sovereignty and human responsibility right in the same verse:

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

The simplicity of the Christian profession is excellent.

Election is a biblical concept and implies that we only have the "responsibility " to believe.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:12-13

 

[Waiting on him]

*deep sigh and head shake *
Michael, this is something we foundationally we’re probably never going to see eye to eye on. So I’ll just wish you a nice day and a marry Christmas.

I thought he was going to say the humble and the proud.

 

[michaelvpardo]

*deep sigh and head shake *
Michael, this is something we foundationally we’re probably never going to see eye to eye on. So I’ll just wish you a nice day and a marry Christmas.

That's the nature of contending for the truth.

For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. 2 Timothy 1:12