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What is Mariology?

Discussion in 'Unorthodox Doctrine Forum' started by face2face, Sep 8, 2021.

  1. Abaxvahl

    Abaxvahl Member

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    Do a word study on heos and see the absurdity introduced by this sort of reading.
     
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  2. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Only on a very shallow reading to Scripture.
    If you understand Scripture properly then not true.

    Yeah! Chuck in the the odd insult.
    Yes.
    Incidentally I have just got a fascinating book about the Jewish roots of Mary. I've only read 3 chapters so far. I knew some of it but it goes much deeper into the OT and typology about Mary. So far it just confirms the truth of what the Catholic Church teaches and how shallowly many Protestants understanding of Mary is. But then so many come to Mary with a dismissive and almost antagonistic approach.
     
  3. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    The perpetual virginity of Mary is an unbiblical, doctrine, which did not appear earlier than the fifth century after Jesus. It should be placed with the dogmas of Mary’s Immaculate Conception, assumption into heaven, and present role as a mediator for believers. Each one of these is man’s invention, meant to exalt Mary in an unbiblical manner.
     
  4. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Here are some 4th century quotes that show you are wrong.
    From This Rock, December 1991

    Athanasius
    "Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary" (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [inter A.D. 358-362]).

    Epiphanius
    "We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of God the Father, only- begotten, that is, of the substance of the Father; . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit." (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).

    Epiphanius
    "And to holy Mary 'Virgin' is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled" (Panacea Against All Heresies 78:6 [A.D. 374/377]).

    Didymus the Blind
    "It helps us to understand the terms 'first-born' and 'only-begotten' when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin 'until she brought forth her first-born son' [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin" (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 381-392]).

    Jerome
    "We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it. Nor do we say this in order to condemn marriage: for virginity itself is the fruit of marriage. . . . You say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a Virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock" (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary 19 {al. 21} [A.D. 383]).

     
  5. Addy

    Addy Well-Known Member

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    @Mungo.... I have no problem IF Mary and Joseph ( together ) decided to dedicate the rest of their lives to being celibate...
    The bible would clearly have described this if it were the case. Again... I am not making claim for Mary and Joseph having other children even.
    I am simply stating that there is NO proof that Mary remained celibate.

    I have seen LONG lists of people who BELIEVE that this is the case... however... these are all summations... guesses... magical ideologies.

    It seems everything needs to be an ARGUMENT... Some things cannot be proven and should be left as such... It doesn't bother me any if someone believes in fact that Mary was celibate... that is fine... but to push it as a TRUTH and a FACT seems to be simply another LIE of the Catholic church.

    Anyways... I don't think all the "proof" you put forward is going to change anyone's mind... this is a Catholic belief... so why be surprised that the protestants don't buy it?

    People waste so much time trying to prove things... Go to mass... embrace the sacraments if you so desire.... even say the rosary... It's all your business. Even believe you are the ONE true church.... Be at peace...

    I think this whole issue is the fact that you are trying to force feed your beliefs onto others.

    As for me... Just give me Jesus... He is all I need.

    Have a lovely day... I see you day after day... plucking away at the "cause" of defending something that is not defendable.

    Protestants will NEVER embrace the ideology of Catholicism... this is why they WALKED away.
     
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  6. Truman

    Truman Well-Known Member

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    Protestants...the original Walk Away movement!!! Lolol!
    Yeshua ha Mashiach...Warrior in the nations!
    Truman...behave yourself!
    "Do I have to?"
    :)
     
  7. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Addy,
    I don't force feed my beliefs but I do defend them when they are attacked.

    I didn't raise the issue of Mary being ever-virgin. Iconoclast did that in posts #12 & #15.
    Until then there had been an amicable discussion with face2face.
     
  8. Addy

    Addy Well-Known Member

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    I understand you don't force feed your beliefs...
    I am just stating that the long lists of people who happen to believe that Mary was a perpetual virgin is simply summation... guess work... and ideological and wishful thinking... the theory sounds nice and so ....
    People's theories doth not make TRUTH.
     
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  9. Josho

    Josho Millennial Christian Staff Member

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    I think a lot of Mary-ology stuff as known today came from the 15-16th century?
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021 at 7:49 AM
  10. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    I would say...DISAGREEMENT.


    Therefore is Mindful "logical" Carnal mind...."surmising".

    Turning to Scripture for using the Carnal Mind, to conclude Understanding of Scripture according to the Spirit.

    Rom 8:
    [7] ....the carnal mind is enmity against God:

    Turning to Scripture ... Expressly pertaining to the description of:
    The king of Salem
    The priest of the most high God
    "King" of righteousness,
    "King" of Salem,
    "King" of peace,
    "LIKE" the "Son of God",
    WITHOUT father, WITHOUT mother, having neither beginning of days, nor end of Life...
    "Without descent (offspring)".

    FACTS:
    God HAS NO beginning.
    God HAS NO ending.
    God HAS NO mother.
    God HAS NO father.
    God HAS NO offspring/descent.


    FACTS:
    God DOES NOT CHANGE. (Mal 3:6)

    IF you believe "JESUS" IS GOD...
    How do you then Teach...
    Jesus HAD a beginning?
    Jesus HAS a mother?
    Jesus' mother, IS His OWN Creation ? [/QUOTE]


    Heb 7
    [1] For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
    [2] To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
    [3] Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.



    Careful reading of Scripture...
    REVEALS;
    ALL FLESH is NOT the SAME KIND OF FLESH
    ALL BODY's are NOT the SAME KIND of BODIES

    1 Cor 15:
    [39] All flesh is not the same flesh:

    ALL BODY'S OF FLESH REPRODUCES, it's SAME KIND OF FLESH...

    Gen 1:
    [24] And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind

    1 Cor 15:
    [40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial:

    It is well known....SPIRITS, did, have, can...
    APPEAR TO THE EYES OF HUMAN MEN....
    "IN THE LIKENESS AS a HUMAN MAN".
    That DOES NOT MAKE THE SPIRIT A HUMAN MAN.


    * Mary was a HUMAN.
    Created of the elements of the Earth, A Terrestrial BODY Formed by the Hand of God.
    Her BODY, HAD a Beginning:
    Her BODY, HAD a Physical Ending;
    Her BODY, Returned to Dust from whence it came.

    Mary DID NOT REPRODUCE from HER SEED the Everlasting Word of God, THAT HAS NO BEGINNING OR ENDING.

    THE Created....DOES NOT REPRODUCE That which IS WITHOUT a Beginning.

    THE Created....DOES NOT Procreate, That which IS WITHOUT a Beginning.

    The DISAGREEMENT Always hinges around the VERY BASIC FACTS

    How do you EXPLAIN...."with Scriptural Truths"....the CREATED, Reproducing that which HAS NO BEGINNING ?
     
  11. Abaxvahl

    Abaxvahl Member

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    All assertions with no proof.
     
  12. Abaxvahl

    Abaxvahl Member

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    Prove that. Why is it the case? Does this mean you think the Scripture is not decisive one way or the other? The Scripture alone not being decisive one way or another I can understand, the word "firstborn" does not necessarily mean there were children after, the word "brothers and sisters" does not necessarily mean they were from Mary, and the word "until" does not necessarily mean they had sex afterwards. None of these things are a positive proof of the Perpetual Virginity though, it simply removes irrational starter objections to it. The reason many Catholics debate over this (although like you I think it's a fairly useless debate, Protestantism from it's origin has an entirely different culture and set of assumptions than the Catholic faith) is because people will irrationally hold on to these objections when it doesn't prove their case.
     
  13. Addy

    Addy Well-Known Member

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    I don't need to prove it... my point is that Mary's life was not documented in such a way that ANYONE can claim her perpetual virginity as a TRUTH.... As for me... I honestly do not care... but these Catholic debates do irritate me as they are usually about TRADITION which is man-made.

    Either way... it's not important... but it is assumptive at best. I can believe the sky is chocolate brown... but that does not make it so.

    For some reason... the Catholics have the monopoly on this kind of thing.
     
  14. Abaxvahl

    Abaxvahl Member

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    If a thing isn't documented we can't make claims about it or prove it? Are there no other sources of knowledge? That seems to be an assumption from your culture and place in time living in a writing-heavy society, and has nothing to do with the Scriptures. I know there are other sources of knowledge as I know things through them.
     
  15. Addy

    Addy Well-Known Member

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    All good... I've made my point... I am not going to argue about the point I have made... LOL
    When it comes to historical events... we DEPEND on things being documented... There is much that is UNKNOWN....some are not satisfied with the air of mystery. Anyways... Welcome to the forums.
     
  16. Abaxvahl

    Abaxvahl Member

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    Thank you. God bless.
     
  17. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    @Abaxvahl For those known as born again Christians, Scripture is the final authority for faith and conduct, rather than tradition.
     
  18. Abaxvahl

    Abaxvahl Member

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    It's definitely a final authority, although it can not be the final one for God Himself is an authority who is above it and teaches how it should be used and read. Not to mention that not all in the Church have had it or can use it, and the problem of discriminating between the plausible interpretations of many. As St. Vincent said:

    "Some one perhaps will ask, Since the canon of Scripture is complete, and sufficient of itself for everything, and more than sufficient, what need is there to join with it the authority of the Church's interpretation? For this reason — because, owing to the depth of Holy Scripture, all do not accept it in one and the same sense, but one understands its words in one way, another in another; so that it seems to be capable of as many interpretations as there are interpreters. For Novatian expounds it one way, Sabellius another, Donatus another, Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, another, Photinus, Apollinaris, Priscillian, another, Iovinian, Pelagius, Celestius, another, lastly, Nestorius another. Therefore, it is very necessary, on account of so great intricacies of such various error, that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and apostles should be framed in accordance with the standard of Ecclesiastical and Universal interpretation."

    Those who are known as born again Christians receive Scripture in the way above and not in man-made traditions.
     
  19. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    I don't see anything ever overruling Scripture. Sola Scriptura is truly a bedrock.
     
  20. Abaxvahl

    Abaxvahl Member

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    Scripture is God's Word, some have said it is like a Verbal Incarnation of Christ and an icon of God in this way, nothing can overrule that. It is simply the sense that Scripture is interpreted in must be in the context God gave for it. That was what the St. Vincent quote means. We are to reject those who come up with novel interpretations of Scripture and hold fast to what was handed to us by the Apostles. Those people he named all came up with wrong and novel interpretations that went against the sense God intended the Scriptures to be read in.
     
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