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Featured What is the 3rd temple?

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by theefaith, Aug 26, 2020.

  1. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    That simply is not so.

    Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 was speaking of a Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem. The way we know this is simple. It is because another standing stone temple in Jerusalem is a requirement for the very end of this world, to fulfill the "abomination of desolation" prophecy that Lord Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel. That was the event Apostle Paul was warning about in 2 Thess.2. Paul was having to repeat that to the Thessalonian Church because of false ones that were distorting it, likely passing fake letters as if written by the Apostles.

    There is another foolproof way of knowing Paul was speaking of a literal stone temple in 2 Thess.2:4, and not the idea of the spiritual temple he taught. The spiritual temple is built upon the foundation of Christ's Apostles and the prophets, with Christ as its Chief Cornerstone. Someone who believes that can be corrupted by anyone, by even the devil, shows they have believed in a salvation that is on shaky ground. Such is not our belief on Jesus Christ as God's Promised Saviour, nor His spiritual temple which represents The Church in His Spirit.

    Thus it is SILLY for any Christian to claim the spiritual temple can be corrupted, period. Those believing that foolishness show they have been deceived by the devil's own. And throwing up lovey-dovey symbols to try and show peace doesn't fool those in Christ who know better.
     
  2. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Member

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    Which part?

    Did you read the whole thing?

    OK.

    Ok. But let me ask you this.

    In Matthew 23, was Jesus talking about a literal chair when He said that the Pharisees have sat in Moses' seat?

    New International Version
    "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.

    New Living Translation
    “The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the law of Moses.

    English Standard Version
    “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat,

    Berean Study Bible
    “The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.

    Berean Literal Bible
    saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees have sat down on Moses' seat;

    New American Standard Bible
    saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;

    New King James Version
    saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.

    King James Bible
    Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

    Christian Standard Bible
    "The scribes and the Pharisees are seated in the chair of Moses.

    Contemporary English Version
    The Pharisees and the teachers of the Law are experts in the Law of Moses.

    Good News Translation
    "The teachers of the Law and the Pharisees are the authorized interpreters of Moses' Law.​

    Moses' seat was in the temple of God. Moses was the teacher of the Law, the Word of God. Moses was long gone when Jesus said this in Matthew 23. Moses' actual "chair" was probably also long gone as well. So Jesus was most likely speaking figuratively about Moses' seat, which was in the temple of God, which was the exact copy of the real Temple of God where Moses would receive the information to tell the children of Israel.

    So the Scribes and the Pharisees had really just taken over Moses' job or his "seat", which was Moses' place of authority in the Temple of God. Was Paul not using Jesus' reference of the Pharisaic interpretation of the Mosaic Law, pointing to how this end time son of destruction would think to overturn God's Rules. How our end time Antichrist, the dragon, working through the composite beast, has attempted, would think, to change times and the Law?, to take over God's authority and rise up to the place of His Sanctuary? Is this not happening now? Right before our eyes?

    And might this also be the reason why God's Temple would be revealed to show the ark of the Covenant at the 7th Trumpet.

    What's in the ark of the Covenant?

    The Ten Commandments?

    I could be wrong, but right now I'm fairly sure that I'm right.

    The trick is however, if I AM wrong, there's still time for me to join up with your team.

    I will always defer to the earlier date.

    Like Jesus said in Mark, the TIME is fulfilled.

    The only time He could've been talking about is the Daniel 9 time.

    The 7 and 62 weeks.

    It looks to me like the heptads are playing themselves out again a second time.

    Like, prior to 1969, the private possession of pornography was NOT legal in the USA.

    In 1987, the Supreme Court legalized hardcore pornography.

    [​IMG]

    It looks like they're protesting the showing of a porno movie in this stock photo from May 31, 1980.

    And now it's streaming over the internet 24 hour a day.

    My grandmother was buying me subscriptions to National Geographic back then.

    [​IMG]

    Look how far we've fallen.

    Except there come a falling away first.

    I think that I can hear the composite beast blaspheme God's name and His dwelling place and those who live in Heaven.

    That means the Dragon is here now too.

    Giving it his power, and his throne, and his great authority.

    But like I say, I could be wrong.

    "who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.​
     
  3. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    That is INCORRECT. There were no seats or chairs within the temple of God at Jerusalem. The High Priest could not sit down within the temple on earth. In contrast Christ sat down at the right hand of God after entering into the heavenly Temple, having finished His work of redemption.

    "Moses seat" is a reference to the Jewish synagogue, in which the scribes and Pharisees expounded on the Torah: "The allusion is not to the chairs in which the sanhedrim sat in trying and determining causes, but to those in which the doctors sat when they expounded the law; for though they stood up when they read the law, or the prophets, they sat down when they preached out of them: this custom of the synagogue was observed by our Lord;" -- John Gill's Commentary.

    As to what Davy said about Paul's prophecy of a literal temple in Jerusalem in the future, that is correct, since the Antichrist will not only set up the Abomination of Desolation in the Holy Place within that temple, but will also sit within it and claim to be God. While this third temple has not been sanctioned by God, it is still called "the temple of God" by Paul to confirm that it is a temple in Jerusalem.
     
  4. liafailrock

    liafailrock Active Member

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    I really can't follow this line of reasoning. The whole point of the post seems vague. I embrace Sir Isaac Newton's interpretation, but he, too based it on the temple in Jerusalem. Nothing in your reply mentions the Neve Shalom in Turkey. Not sure how you jumped from all this to that.
     
  5. liafailrock

    liafailrock Active Member

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    Not sure where the "boatload of theology" is in the NT is to deny the Law. The issue with the Law is not the keeping of it per se, but that the keeping of it does not bring personal salvation. But one is saved unto good works, in which the practical manifestation of those works are those defined by the Law, thus is in effect yet. It's based on what the Jews recite as the Shema prayer. So no NT passage denies any Law, it upholds the Law.

    It seems that this assertion is the basis for denying a third temple, in which again is not a good connection or logical discourse. Indeed, we are talking about Jews yet that don't see things from the perspective of us Christians. So, they can't start another temple, and then when the Kingdom comes here on this earth what they hold in error cannot be made aright? A child even starts a project the best they understand and the parent can perfect it. Paul stated that the end time Antichrist will sit in the temple of God showing he is God. It's the Satanic counterpart to the true Messiah yet to come as the Jews believe the Temple must be built to usher in Messiah. That is the whole context of the passage, and not some other temple or some other God. He's talking about the apostasy from the faith in the end. Jesus also confirmed this in passages such as Matthew 24:15. The Holy place is not just any city, or perhaps sacred altar because the Thessalonian passage by Paul is his version of this event, in which he describes it as a Temple. The bible interprets itself. For the Jew, the Temple is the lifeblood of their spirituality and thus it's their every intention to build it. Since Israel will also be saved, it makes no sense to have a "Gentilian" interpretation to fit Christian theology. And indeed, much of Christian theology deviated from the bible and ought to be Jewishness with the understanding that Jesus is the Messiah, but that's another subject.
     
  6. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    Nobody should deny the continuing existence of "God's Law," as representative of our general morality. Indeed, we must not just voice our beliefs, but we must also give "legs" to our claims. But when we speak of "the Law" most often we're talking about the Law of Moses. This is a covenant, which Christians now refer to as "the Old Covenant." This means that it is passe, and no longer in effect. That's where the "boatload" of proofs come from, in claiming that the Church is out of the Old Testament and into the New Testament. It has nothing to do with antinomianism.

    You cannot, however, maintain the continuity of the Law of Moses as a covenant simply by declaring there are Christian Works. Yes, we are not justified by Works, but still must *do* Works. But this does not mean we turn to the Law in order to do Works.

    Rather, Christian Works are done under a new covenant, and have nothing to do with the 613 requirements of the previous covenant. This means the infrastructure, elements, and ordinances of the Law no longer have a place in the Church. The temple, the priesthood, and the sacrifices are out. Morality, which existed under the Law, continues to exist under the New Covenant. But it is not a perpetuation of the Old Covenant as such--just a commonality with it.

    The things that they did wrong did not have to do with the elements of the Law, but with the morality of the Law. They defied the Spirit of God and His Word, and thus became immoral and unjust in their society. The elements, including the temple and the sacrifices, were only designed to show them their constant need for reliance upon God, spiritually, along with His forgiveness. To put this right, they need only turn to Christ, who fulfilled all of the elements of the Law, including the priesthood, the temple worship, and the sacrifices of atonement.

    This isn't quite the picture painted in the Scriptures, although it is a popular version being propagated out there. The Jews are not even in the picture today, with respect to the Antichrist. They've just spent the last 2000 years under national punishment, and are preparing to shed their rebellious majority, to obtain final salvation.

    The Antichrist is the product of Christian Civilization, by contrast. It is as Christian Civilization backslides and apostacizes that Antichrist rises to dominate in the midst of Christian Europe (in my scenario). His stand "in the temple of God" can take place in any temple, whether a Christian church or a Jewish temple. It may be a temple he has built to himself. But Antichrist, in my view, will come out of Europe--not Israel. Many Antichrists in history, including Hitler, have come out from the nations, and not out of Israel. The "seas" may represent the nations, and the "land" may represent Israel. The Beast comes out of the sea. The False Prophet comes out of the land.

    We can only look at biblical references and historical examples. I've shown you how history's Antichrists have come out of the nations, such as Mohammad or Napoleon or Stalin. In the Bible we only have Dan 7 and the example of ancient kings who are described as having had a heavenly position on "God's mountain." That was not necessarily Mt. Zion.

    Isa 14.You said in your heart,
    “I will ascend to the heavens;
    I will raise my throne
    above the stars of God;
    I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
    on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.


    Eze 28.2 The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: “‘In the pride of your heart you say, “I am a god; I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the seas.”

    I think you have it backward, with all due respect. Israel was planned as a single nation to be an example for the nations--not the other way around. What ceremonies and rituals were for Israel certainly were not for the whole world! And by the time it came for the world to receive the word of their salvation, the rituals of Israel were no longer of any use anyway.

    I don't care if Orthodox Jews want to rebuild the temple. It just shows that the leadership in Israel has prevented Israel all these many centuries from coming to their day of final salvation. Ultimately, they will be judged and removed, so that national Israel can be restored to true spirituality in Christ--not in a rebuilt temple.
     
  7. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Member

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    That is remarkable.

    Can you believe it?

    Praise the Lord.

    How I would have loved to be a fly on that wall.

    "Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” - Luke 4:20

    Declaring the favorable YEAR of the Lord in 27 AD. 62 and 7 weeks from the Artaxerxes Decree to restore and to rebuild. The TIME was fulfilled.

    I know there's a lot written about it.

    I remember reading a story from the Old Time Jewish writings about how Moses did actually have a wooden chair with slots in the side that stored all the scrolls of the Laws of God.

    What is the Chair of Moses (the Seat of Moses)?
    The chair of Moses was a phrase used by Jesus in Matthew 23:2 to signify the place of authority that the Scribes andPharisees had in interpreting The Law and exercising their authority over the Jewish people. They are the ones who would tell the people of Israel what the law of Moses "really" meant. The phrase is found only in this verse. In Greek, the phrase is Μωσέως καθέδρας (Moses kathedras), and is literally "Moses' seat." It is translated as "Moses' seat" in the ASV, KJV, ESV, NET, NIV. The translation is "chair of Moses" in the HCSB and NASB. - Matt Slick.

    What is the Chair of Moses (the Seat of Moses)? | CARM.org

    Matt Slick is a cool name.

    There's also an interesting note by a Baptist Minister, arguing this chair of Moses with a Catholic Priest.

    “’The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice’” (Mt 23:2-3).

    First, it should be noted that nowhere in the actual text is the notion that the Pharisees are only reading the Old Testament Scripture when sitting on Moses’ seat. It’s an assumption gratuitously smuggled in from a presupposed position of sola Scriptura.

    Secondly, White’s assumption that Jesus is referring literally to Pharisees sitting on a seat in the synagogue and reading (the Old Testament only) and that alone—is more forced and woodenly literalistic than the far more plausible interpretation that this was simply a term denoting received authority.

    It reminds one of the old silly Protestant tale that the popes speak infallibly and ex cathedra (cathedra is the Greek word for seat in Matthew 23:2) only when sitting in a certain chair in the Vatican (because the phrase means literally, “from the bishop’s chair”; whereas it was a figurative and idiomatic usage).

    Jesus says that they sat “on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you.” In other words: because they had the authority (based on the position of occupying Moses’ seat), therefore they were to be obeyed. It is like referring to a “chairman” of a company or committee. He occupies the “chair,” therefore he has authority. No one thinks he has the authority only when he sits in a certain chair reading the corporation charter or the Constitution or some other official document.
    https://catholicconvert.com/documents/ChairOfMosesArmstrong.doc
    It almost sounded like Jesus was telling us to do what the Pharisees were telling us, to do the Laws, as long as they SAT in Moses' seat.

    [​IMG]

    I can't really show you what the Abomination of Desolation is right now.

    The note would be too long.

    But the "holy place", that Jesus was talking about in Matthew 24, is not inside a temple built by human hands anymore.

    (Let The Reader Understand)

    And even though I know this talk of the Law can tend to leave a bad taste in some people's mouths, there may be a way to show that this is actually what Paul was talking about in 2 Thessalonians. That the man of sin taking this seat, this place of authority, was the forsaking of the ways of Moses.

    "He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. - 2 Thessalonians 2:4

    And in the verse just before that, Paul's talking about the falling away:

    "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; - 2 Thessalonians 2:3
    The falling away, the rebellion that precedes. That word for rebellion is Strong's G646-apostasia.

    According to Blue Letter Bible, the only other time that word is used in the NT is in Acts 21:21.

    [​IMG] Act 21:21

    "And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake G646 Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.​

    Teaching the Jews to forsake the ways of Moses.

    That pretty much looks like what the Man of Sin is doing right now, teaching the many tribes and nations and tongues.

    Taking over the chair, the authority, of Moses.

    Rising up to the Place of His Sanctuary.

    And by default, claiming that he is God.
     
  8. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    There is not one word in the Bible that says the "Abomination of Desolation" will be the Antichrist at the end of the age. Not one.
    There are 2 AoDs in the bible.
    1)Dan 9: the AoD of the Roman Army situating itself in the holy vicinity of the temple, around the walls of Jerusalem, to destroy both the city and the sanctuary of God.
    2) Dan 11-12: the 2nd AoD is Antiochus 4. Antiochus imposed idolatry in the temple worship and Hellenism among the people. Many thousands of orthodox worshipers were murdered.

    The main trouble seeing this involves 2 things.
    1) Christians want to be all about predicting the future. Historically fulfilled prophecies are boring to them, even though they serve to give us *moral examples* of the way we are to live to avoid judgment. They want to anticipate and predict the future! But the 2 AoDs in the Bible are historically fulfilled. The Antichrist is future, but is *not* described as an AoD!
    2) The AoD of Antiochus is conflated with the Antichrist. It is thought an AoD is some specific article or idol placed in a rebuilt temple. But no temple will be rebuilt, since we are in the NT period, and will not return to a "Jewish Age."

    And the fact the Roman Army was an "abomination" should tell you that it need not be an article placed in the temple, as Antiochus placed an idol there. Rather, the "abomination" is simply something that defiles something holy. Antichrist defiles God not by entering into a rebuilt temple, but rather, by declaring himself to be God. He is not an AoD, but he is a defiler of the holy God.
     
  9. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    I did quote this in my response...

    You said:
    "The Temple that John is measuring in Revelation 11, excluding the outer court, is the Body of Christ. WE are that Temple. God's People are the inner court.

    But the Temple of God that Paul is talking about in 2Thessalonians2, is the real Temple of God in Heaven. That Temple is shown in Revelation 8 when the censer is cast down, and at the end of Revelation 11 when God's Temple in Heaven is revealed and the ark of His covenant was seen within."


    That is specifically what I disagree with, which God's Word also disagrees with that. The "temple of God" Paul mentioned the Antichrist is to come and sit in playing God is NOT the spiritual temple of Ephesians 2. That idea was started by some devil crept into among Christ's Church, it's been going around like the COVID virus in some Churches today. So it's not your... idea, you didn't think of it, you just passed it along as if it were truth. It is not.

    That also applies to the temple mentioned at the start of Revelation 11:1-2. That is NOT the heavenly temple, simply because the Gentiles are given to 'tread' the city for 42 months as written there, which 42 months is the time the "dragon" of Rev.13 is given to reign in Jerusalem at the end. It is the latter 1260 days of the final "one week" of Daniel 9:27 when the "vile person" of Daniel 11:34 will end the Jew's sacrifices within a new temple, and instead places the abomination of desolation our Lord Jesus warned His about. Those events happen on earth, not in Heaven.
     
  10. liafailrock

    liafailrock Active Member

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    Well, it's not my claims, but that of the Lord, "if you love me keep my commandments". And what is sin? Sin is the transgression of the Law, otherwise it would not be defined as such.




    The whole idea of a temple and the throne is over the entire earth. Mankind was supposed to be rulers over this earth, but due to sin mankind sold himself to the lordship of Lucifer, who is the god of this world. The whole idea of the coming Kingdom is to restore was was supposed to have been back in the garden. So it matters not what nations, which I do not fundamentally disagree with, Antichrist comes from. The thing is that Satan is trying to use nations of his plans to outdo the nation of God's plan: Israel. And again, Israel sees herself as a light to the nations to bring mankind together and they will join them thru Messiah and the central place the temple of God. This is why, since they rejected Christ, they will be fooled as Satan will try to grab the power despite what the people truly want (sounds like our politics today). In turn, the Lord uses this calamity to turn his people to "look upon him whom they have pierced".



    And this only proves it's possible for people to misinterpret the bible as I am being misinterpreted here. As a matter of fact, if you knew me from years back I am a big advocate for Israel, lost ten tribes and all and the nations they became, and you don't know how much flack I got when I said that the bible is a "book about Israel" which is God's Kingdom nation on this earth to pave that way one day. LOL. But you are correct, they were to be an example to the nations.
     
  11. liafailrock

    liafailrock Active Member

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    So let me put out a general question to those who do not think a 3rd temple is physical:
    Temple #1 was physical
    Temple #2 that was rebuilt (and later renovated) was physical
    The same mindset of the Jews then exist today. They feel they need a temple in order for Messiah to come.
    Lastly they have everything all ready to go. They just need the opportune moment. So why would it be another church or place that does not mean anything to the Jew? Why would it be spiritual when what another nation or group thinks is not what they think?
    The issue isn't whether it's needed, right or wrong or whatever. It's a practical issue that they need the building for Messiah to come.
    We know all Israel will be saved according to the scriptures, so they are around until the time of the end to fulfill that. In short, there's no logical connection to any other temple (even if it is the proper definition) and what they intend to build.
     
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  12. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps you missed Newton's conclusion where HE REFUSED TO PUBLISH, because he realized that there was no Hellenistic or Roman era fulfillments. -- Unfortunately is "followers" published Newton's work AFTER HE WAS DEAD.

    But what wasn't available in in the early ~1700's, NOW IS AVAILABLE:

    Dan. 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
    ...
    9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.


    Bobby Jo
     
  13. liafailrock

    liafailrock Active Member

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    Newton would have been considered a heretic yet wrote his interpretations on scripture. He was genious enough to have them found and published later. I had many prophetic dreams these last days, but the first of which was about Newton building the church. I think that was to focus that the end is not yet, and of course to focus on what he stated (as of course Newton does not build the church!). He knew in the end there was going to be true church arise again. While I don't agree with everything Newton believed, a lot of it I do as what I believe closer to his interpretations than mainline christianity. IMO he was the greatest theologian of his time, but the church world was not ready for him yet, nor was it the time of the end. His letters, auctioned off in 1936 I find an interesting date if we took the 120 year prophecy of Genesis literally (and like most prophecy has more than one fulfillment) comes just shy of his prediction of the "end of the world" given the extra years may be the Tribulation and Day of the Lord. I especially love his interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27. Only Newton could think of that.
     
  14. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    The Temple will be rebuilt. Zechariah 8:9

    Zechariah 8:2 Again, the word of the Lord came to me; I am very jealous for Zion, I am burning with jealousy for her. [the Lord will clear His Land. Deuteronomy 32:34-43]

    Zechariah 8:3 This is what the Lord says; I will return to Zion and dwell in Jerusalem, it will be called the City of Faithfulness and the Temple mount will be called the Holy Mountain.


    Zechariah 8:4-5 This is what the Lord Almighty says; Once again old people and children will inhabit the streets of Jerusalem.

    Zechariah 8:6 This is what the Lord Almighty says; Even if this may seem impossible to the remnant of this nation, will it be impossible for Me?

    Zechariah 8:7-8 These are the words of the Lord of Hosts; I am about to rescue My people from countries in the East and West and bring them back to live in Jerusalem. They will be My people and I shall be their God, in faithfulness and justice.
    The Land cleansed, His faithful Christian people gathered and settled in the Land. Back to Jerusalem: the place of origin for our Christian faith.


    Zechariah 8:9 These are the words of the Lord of Hosts; Take heart, all you who now hear that the Temple is to be rebuilt as the prophets foretold. [Zechariah 6:15, Haggai 2:-9, +]

    Zechariah 8:10 Before that time, there was no hiring of man or beast, because of your enemies, for I had set every man against his neighbour.

    Zechariah 8:11 But, I do not feel the same toward the remnant of this people as I did in former days, says the Lord of Hosts.

    Zechariah 8:12 For they will sow in safety, I will give them rain and the Land will yield it’s produce. This is the inheritance of My people.
    Every faithful Christian from every tribe, race, nation and language. John sees them there; Revelation 7:9
     
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  15. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    FALSE. If Newton had wanted his research published, he would have done it himself. But because he realized the Roman era FAILURE, he had sufficient integrity to NOT PUBLISH, which is MORE that the LIARS who maintain a Hellenistic era LIE.

    And although Newton was one of the Greatest thinkers in history, -- his followers have done a GRAVE disservice to this great man by publishing what Newton himself ultimately REJECTED.


    If Newton were alive today he would solved the Prophecies, but he isn't and you apparently aren't smart enough, because if you were, you'd find out ...
    Bobby Jo
     
  16. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    So the question here is: What are the Commandments? Jesus said he was establishing "New Commandments," while he was still under the Law. This indicated that beyond the Law there would be Commandments no longer related to the covenant of the Law. Sin certainly was a transgression of the Law while the Law was still in effect. But it is in effect no longer. The Law has condemned, in the past, all men apart from Christ. The Law is no longer in effect, but its condemnation of unredeemed men still is in effect.

    Sin today is still defined as walking apart from Christian redemption. Being in Christ we are no longer under the condemnation of the Law, even though we still have the sin nature. Our flesh has been condemned, but it is legally crucified with Christ with whom we identify. We also identify with his life so that we have obtained eternal life.

    This is one of the atonement theories--the Ransom theory. I actually have my own theory, the Victim theory. In order to come to earth to save Man, Jesus had to endure the sins of men. He is by necessity a Victim. But I think perhaps all of the atonement theories have merit. I just have problems with the Ransom theory because God doesn't owe Satan anything to purchase men back. I suppose if God is to treat all beings equally there has to be some time given to Satan if time is also given for sinful men to repent?

    This sounds like Dispensationalism? I believe Israel is but the 1st nation God has dealt with, and is in no way superior to the rest of the nations. However, we should respect the 1st for paving the way.

    Israel's redemption takes place at the 2nd Coming, and not before. Until that time there is only a small Christian remnant although yes, Israel is being prepared for final judgment and for final deliverance.

    But this may suggest to some that Israel is the center of God's plan, which isn't true. God's plan is for all the nations. Israel will be the last to get Christianity.

    The big plan with Antichrist has to do with disrupting the international Church, probably in Europe somewhere. It is Christianity that Satan is after, although Israel would be a target as well, inasmuch as their salvation is part of God's promised word.

    Many of us are strong advocates for Israel. Back in the mid-70s I tried to join a Kibbutz in Israel. I'm a big fan of Netanyahu. I had my pic taken with a wax figure of Rabin in London! ;) But it's the Church that God loves. Not all Israel is the Church. But one day all Israel will be Christian in belief.
     
  17. liafailrock

    liafailrock Active Member

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    You really ought to learn more humility by dismounting off your high horse. I never resorted to ad hominem attacks so that kills your argument right away. Who would want to listen? I told you why Newton did not publish so, sorry. Your point about him publishing is wrong. Have a good day.
     
  18. liafailrock

    liafailrock Active Member

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    I don't fundamentally disagree with anything you say, Randy. Your points are also well taken as additional facets to complex subjects as these.
     
  19. CadyandZoe

    CadyandZoe Active Member

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    According to the cultural language of the time, the temple was the place where one gains access to God. People thought of God as being spatially located somewhere. This seems to be an aspect of Jesus' encounter with the woman at the well. She argued that people need to worship "on this mountain" rather than in Jerusalem. Jesus tells her that a day is coming, and now is, that the Father seeks those who will worship him in spirit and in truth. In other words, God is not restricted to a particular location, and he is more concerned with our spirit and the truth.

    Paul draws upon this idea in his epistle to the Ephesians where he first asserts the fact that a wall of separation, a barrier wall, stood between the Gentiles and the temple. He argues that the effectiveness of the wall has been neutralized in the cross of Christ. Now, both Jews and Gentiles gain access to God by the Spirit. Access to God is not restricted to a particular location. We can access to God through prayer and faith and trust and repentance and contrition and penitence and forgiveness and reconciliation.

    Jesus died on the cross for our reconciliation, which is one reason why Jesus referred to his body as the temple. We now worship at the cross, where it all begins for us.

    Having said all that, if I understand my prophecy correctly, another temple will be built in Jerusalem. At that location the man of lawlessness will declare himself to be God. When Jesus returns, he will defeat that man and take up residence in the temple, where he will meet with the nations giving them wisdom and knowledge from God.
     
  20. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    Pardon my french, but your "excuse" is idiotic. Who would be so "wise" as to REFUSE to publish so that idiots could come behind him and broadcast that which HE REFUSED?!?

    Furthermore, if Newton had OBEYED the angel's instructions in 12:4, (many shall run to and fro) he should have REALIZED that man was still on horseback and NOT traveling some 60 to 600 mph; and that men (and knowledge shall increase) were still using the written word, without the advantage of INSTANT computer communications around the world, with KNOWLEDGE literally at our Fingertips (Keyboard).


    But each must find their own path, even though some choose to be blind. So good luck! :)
    Bobby Jo
     
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