What is the affect on The Fall and The Atonement, if Adam was not the first human?

[JBO]

What were the consequences of eating the forbidden fruit in the garden?

The consequences of eating the forbidden fruit in the garden was not physical death; rather it was spiritual death and being ejected from the garden. The reason that Adam was ejected from the garden was to keep him from being able to eat the fruit of the tree of life which prevented physical death.

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken

Clearly physical death was integral to the creation. Otherwise, the tree of life in the garden would have served no purpose. It was there to keep Adam and Eve from dying as long as they obeyed God. They disobeyed God. He ejected them from the garden and locked up the garden to prevent them or anyone else from having access to the fruit of the tree of life. In that sense and only that sense, physical death entered the world through Adam, i.e., death came through Adam.

Gen 3:24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

 

[St. SteVen]

The consequences of eating the forbidden fruit in the garden was not physical death; rather it was spiritual death...

Are you proposing that humans are born spiritually alive but they die spiritually when they sin?
That we did not inherit spiritual death from the original couple?

If death in Adam is spiritual, then...

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

/

 

[JBO]

Are you proposing that humans are born spiritually alive but they die spiritually when they sin?
That we did not inherit spiritual death from the original couple?

If death in Adam is spiritual, then...

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

/

Only in the fact that all in Adam, i.e., all men, have sinned (Rom 5:12). However, I do believe that 1 Corinthians 15:22 is speaking of physical death and the resurrection. And physical death is a fact of creation. There is nothing in this physical creation that is immortal. All living things eventually die and all non-living things will eventually cease. The resurrection is not a return of the physical body.

1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

What we inherited from Adam and Eve is our humanity, including our free will to choose to disobey God. We did not inherit spiritual death from them.

 

[St. SteVen]

Only in the fact that all in Adam, i.e., all men, have sinned (Rom 5:12). However, I do believe that 1 Corinthians 15:22 is speaking of physical death and the resurrection. And physical death is a fact of creation. There is nothing in this physical creation that is immortal. All living things eventually die and all non-living things will eventually cease. The resurrection is not a return of the physical body.

1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

What we inherited from Adam and Eve is our humanity, including our free will to choose to disobey God. We did not inherit spiritual death from them.

I agree with what you are saying about the resurrection of the dead.
But the context says that "death came through a man".
Since all humankind are mortal, what sort of death came from Adam?

1 Corinthians 15:21-25 NIV
For since death came through a man,
the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then,
when he comes, those who belong to him.
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over
the kingdom to God the Father after he has
destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put
all his enemies under his feet.

]

 

[JBO]

I agree with what you are saying about the resurrection of the dead.
But the context says that "death came through a man".
Since all humankind are mortal, what sort of death came from Adam?

1 Corinthians 15:21-25 NIV
For since death came through a man,
the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then,
when he comes, those who belong to him.
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over
the kingdom to God the Father after he has
destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put
all his enemies under his feet.

]

22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

In Adam all die physically. In Christ all will be made alive, i.e., resurrected to a spiritual body.

24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power

 

[St. SteVen]

The OP cont'd...

In the Christian narrative we are left wondering.
- Were the origins (Genesis account) in the Bible figurative, or literal?
- Was Adam a real person, or a symbolic first person?
- Are the biblical genealogies true or false?
- Could original sin have been committed by a symbolic first person?
- If so, why would the rest of humankind be liable for it?
- If humankind is NOT liable for original sin, why did Christ pay the death penalty for us?

If the origins in the Bible are figurative. = ?
Adam was a symbolic first person. = ?
The biblical genealogies are false = ?
Original sin is symbolic. = ?
Humankind is not liable for it. = ?
Therefore Christ did NOT pay the death penalty for us. = ?

Where does that leave us?

]

 

[Jay Ross]

Where does that leave us?

Down your preverbal rabbit hole lost within your imagination.

 

[St. SteVen]

Down your preverbal rabbit hole lost within your imagination.

Were the origins (Genesis account) in the Bible figurative, or literal?

]

 

[St. SteVen]

Since Jesus died to pay the death penalty for original sin, what happens if you remove the original sinner?

Or to state this another way... How does our view of origins affect our doctrine?

Trying to sort this out in my own mind. Stuck somewhere between science and religion.

This scripture shows that the fate of all humankind rested on the actions of the two Adams.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

[

 

[marks]

Since Jesus died to pay the death penalty for original sin, what happens if you remove the original sinner?

What in the world does that mean, remove Adam? Do you not believe in the creation of man as recorded in the Bible?

You have to choose . . . not religion or science, but God's Word or man's word.

Much love!

 

[St. SteVen]

What in the world does that mean, remove Adam? Do you not believe in the creation of man as recorded in the Bible?

I have met many Christians that accept evolutionary science as the means of creation.
I don't subscribe to that view personally, but it raises some issues.
If their science is right, what becomes of the first Adam?

You have to choose . . . not religion or science, but God's Word or man's word.

They seem to have chosen, and have no regrets.
They're fine with a metaphorical Adam.

Certainly not the view I was raised on.

[

 

[marks]

I have met many Christians that accept evolutionary science as the means of creation.
I don't subscribe to that view personally, but it raises some issues.
If their science is right, what becomes of the first Adam?

Not the sort of question I'm interested in. If we were all space monkeys, would we live on the moon? No valid issue is raised. Speculation of evolution (It's not science) is contradictory to the Scriptures. The Bible makes propositional statements. If you start tinkering with it's propositional statements, on what basis would you believe any of it? You turn God's Word into subjective soup, meaning nothing more than your own opinions of which parts to accept and which parts not.

They seem to have chosen, and have no regrets.
They're fine with a metaphorical Adam.

What do you believe is true?

Much love!

 

[Dan Clarkston]

if Adam was not the first human?

Only those that have been reading the devil's book of lies and speculations.... claim Adam was not the first man.

This is not a place to put FREE advertising! Stay on topic please!

He's probably telling you in his language that... there was no other men before Adam

Four Views on Hell is a good book on the subject

Thanks, but I'll stick with God's Book which tells us hell is rear and many will suffer there for all eternity.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Since Jesus died to pay the death penalty for original sin, what happens if you remove the original sinner?

What a pointless and useless question.... wish in one hand a poop in another and see which one fills up quickest!

 

[RLT63]

Only those that have been reading the devil's book of lies and speculations.... claim Adam was not the first man.
View attachment 59661





He's probably telling you in his language that... there was no other men before Adam View attachment 59662







Thanks, but I'll stick with God's Book which tells us hell is rear and many will suffer there for all eternity.

It’s all taken from God’s book. Your view is presented as well as others who disagree with you

 

[St. SteVen]

What is the affect on The Fall and The Atonement, if Adam was not the first human?​

Since Jesus died to pay the death penalty for original sin, what happens if you remove the original sinner?

Or to state this another way... How does our view of origins affect our doctrine?

Trying to sort this out in my own mind. Stuck somewhere between science and religion.
Send help! - LOL

This scripture shows that the fate of all humankind rested on the actions of the two Adams.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[quietthinker]

What is the affect on The Fall and The Atonement, if Adam was not the first human?​

Both become the figment of the imagination and its pursuit, vanity and foolishness

 

[St. SteVen]

What is the affect on The Fall and The Atonement, if Adam was not the first human?​

Both become the figment of the imagination and its pursuit, vanity and foolishness

Wow.
I can live with Adam not being the first human, but if the Atonement is a figment of the imagination, that's bad news. IMHO

 

[GodsGrace]

Since Jesus died to pay the death penalty for original sin, what happens if you remove the original sinner?

Or to state this another way... How does our view of origins affect our doctrine?

Trying to sort this out in my own mind. Stuck somewhere between science and religion.

Send help! - LOL

This scripture shows that the fate of all humankind rested on the actions of the two Adams.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Doesn't matter if there were other humans around or not.
Not sure this is what you mean.

God created a Garden.
He placed the REPRESENTTIVE of humanity in it.

Adam failed the test.
This is all that matters.

 

[JBO]

What a pointless and useless question.... wish in one hand a poop in another and see which one fills up quickest!

But it is not pointless. Because the mass of Christendom does not believe that the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ did actually reject the doctrine of the sin of Adam being imputed to all humanity. Jesus' sacrifice obviated any such imputation once for all mankind. The sacrifice on the cross did away completely with any notion of the "fall" of humanity being implemented by the sin of Adam.