What is the battle of Gog and Magog in Revelation 20:8?

[Freedm]

It's the end of one age and the start of another but the final end of anything comes after the Millennium, and after the GWTJ when heaven and Earth are destroyed and replaced by new versions. That age will have no end.

Sounds like we see things differently on several front.

Seems God is wrathful about the whole world and it's relationship with the beast, not Jerusalem.

Do you not see Jerusalem as the whore?

 

[ewq1938]

Sounds like we see things differently on several front.


Do you not see Jerusalem as the whore?

No. Babylon is people all over the world, deceived into a false religion directly associated with the one who will claim to be God, and will be able to perform miracles. Besides, Babylon will be destroyed by fire but Jerusalem isn't destroyed at all, let alone by fire. There some damage from Earthquakes mentioned but no other damage and certainly not fully destroyed like Babylon. She is a symbolic city and symbolic woman, neither being literal.

 

[Freedm]

No. Babylon is people all over the world, deceived into a false religion directly associated with the one who will claim to be God, and will be able to perform miracles. Besides, Babylon will be destroyed by fire but Jerusalem isn't destroyed at all, let alone by fire. There some damage from Earthquakes mentioned but no other damage and certainly not fully destroyed like Babylon. She is a symbolic city and symbolic woman, neither being literal.

Consider this. Jerusalem was to be God's wife, but Jerusalem was not true to God. This is the definition of an adulteress, and the entire chapter of Ezekiel 16 describes Jerusalem as the adulterous wife. If Jerusalem is not the adulterous wife, why did Ezekiel describe her as such?

 

[ewq1938]

Consider this. Jerusalem was to be God's wife, but Jerusalem was not true to God.

Israel and Judah were to be God's wives and they were. They both married God and both committed adultery and both were divorced.

This is the definition of an adulteress, and the entire chapter of Ezekiel 16 describes Jerusalem as the adulterous wife. If Jerusalem is not the adulterous wife, why did Ezekiel describe her as such?

That happened long ago. Now the only wedding to be is with the bride of Christ.

 

[Freedm]

That happened long ago. Now the only wedding to be is with the bride of Christ.

I know it happened long ago. Do you think God has been without a bride all this time?

 

[ewq1938]

I know it happened long ago. Do you think God has been without a bride all this time?

Yes. God who divorced his two wives is not marrying again. His son is the one getting married.

 

[Freedm]

Yes. God who divorced his two wives is not marrying again. His son is the one getting married.

O.k. the bride of the lamb, but he is also God. The point is, we are already married to the lamb. Why wouldn't we be?

 

[ewq1938]

O.k. the bride of the lamb, but he is also God.

I'm pointing to the difference between God the Father and God the Son.

The point is, we are already married to the lamb. Why wouldn't we be?

Already married? Not yet. Like in the parable of the ten virgins, it is the second coming where anyone is taken to where the marriage takes place.

 

[Freedm]

Already married? Not yet. Like in the parable of the ten virgins, it is the second coming where anyone is taken to where the marriage takes place.

What is a covenant with God if not a marriage? Physical Israel was a wife to God, but he divorced her when she was unfaithful. Do we now not have a covenant with God?

Jeremiah 31:32
not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.

The following verse literally tells us that the reason we were made clean in Christ, was so that we could be married to Him. So are we not clean enough? Are we not joined to Him? Are we not in Him, as he is in us? What does all that mean if not marriage? And if we're still not married to Christ, what are we waiting for?

Romans 7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

Are we not members of the kingdom of God today? Jesus said the kingdom of God is a wedding feast, so how then can we not be married?

Matthew 22:2
“The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son.

 

[ewq1938]

What is a covenant with God if not a marriage? Physical Israel was a wife to God, but he divorced her when she was unfaithful. Do we now not have a covenant with God?

We do but the marriage is at the second coming so it is a future event.

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

 

[Freedm]

We do but the marriage is at the second coming so it is a future event.

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

By what logic, or scripture, do you claim that we are not yet married to Christ?

 

[ewq1938]

By what logic, or scripture, do you claim that we are not yet married to Christ?

I just cited one evidence that shows the marriage takes place when Christ returns. Why ask when that was already in the post?

 

[Freedm]

I just cited one evidence that shows the marriage takes place when Christ returns. Why ask when that was already in the post?

So you can't accept any of the evidences that show all of Revelation has been fulfilled, because you don't believe Jesus has returned yet. It's like a wall you've put up, that blocks all evidence until you see Jesus return. It's stifling you. This one dogmatic belief, is forcing you to see everything else in a certain light and it doesn't allow you to consider other possibilities. It's a shame really, because you're missing out on so much.

I've taken the exact opposite approach.

Your approach
I haven't found any evidence of his return, so therefore he must not have meant what he said about "this generation" and "what must soon take place", the "new Jerusalem", etc.

My approach
I believe he meant what he said about "this generation" and "what must soon take place", and the "new Jerusalem", so therefore I must be misunderstanding the return.

What's interesting, is that your approach requires an ego, which says that you can not be misunderstanding anything, and you can not be missing any evidence, whereas my approach requires humility, which says I must be misunderstanding something, or missing some evidence.

 

[ewq1938]

So you can't accept any of the evidences that show all of Revelation has been fulfilled, because you don't believe Jesus has returned yet. It's like a wall you've put up, that blocks all evidence until you see Jesus return. It's stifling you. This one dogmatic belief, is forcing you to see everything else in a certain light and it doesn't allow you to consider other possibilities. It's a shame really, because you're missing out on so much.

I've taken the exact opposite approach.

Your approach
I haven't found any evidence of his return, so therefore he must not have meant what he said about "this generation" and "what must soon take place", the "new Jerusalem", etc.

My approach
I believe he meant what he said about "this generation" and "what must soon take place", and the "new Jerusalem", so therefore I must be misunderstanding the return.

What's interesting, is that your approach requires an ego, which says that you can not be misunderstanding anything, and you can not be missing any evidence, whereas my approach requires humility, which says I must be misunderstanding something, or missing some evidence.

This still avoids the facts that much of Revelation has not happened and there are VERY unique events that history could not ignore or forget like two people being dead, resurrecting and then ascending bodily into the heavens. Let's also not forget the greatest event ever prophesied, the second coming of Jesus Christ, is a global event that changes life on Earth forever. You think that happened? Obviously it did not.

 

[Freedm]

This still avoids the facts that much of Revelation has not happened and there are VERY unique events that history could not ignore or forget like two people being dead, resurrecting and then ascending bodily into the heavens. Let's also not forget the greatest event ever prophesied, the second coming of Jesus Christ, is a global event that changes life on Earth forever. You think that happened? Obviously it did not.

It's important to read the book, knowing that the symbolism is extremely heavy.

You know Jesus does not literally have a sword coming out of his mouth, and you know he does not literally hold seven stars in his hand. You know there is no literal great serpent spewing water out of its mouth like a river. You know the woman was not literally drunk with the blood of the saints and you know the beast does not literally have seven heads and ten horns. So why then do you expect the two witnesses to be two men who literally rise from the dead and fly up into the sky while the people are opening presents?

 

[Freedm]

This still avoids the facts that much of Revelation has not happened and there are VERY unique events that history could not ignore or forget like two people being dead, resurrecting and then ascending bodily into the heavens. Let's also not forget the greatest event ever prophesied, the second coming of Jesus Christ, is a global event that changes life on Earth forever. You think that happened? Obviously it did not.

Do you believe that Jesus foretold the destruction of Jerusalem? If so, look at how Jesus describes his return in Matthew 24.

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

Now look at how Isaiah describes the destruction of Babylon in Isariah 13:10

The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.

Now here's the destruction of Tyre

The moon will be dismayed,
the sun ashamed;
for the Lord Almighty will reign
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,
and before its elders—with great glory.

The slaughter in Bozra and Idumea

All the stars in the sky will be dissolved
and the heavens rolled up like a scroll;
all the starry host will fall
like withered leaves from the vine,
like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

I could go on and on, but the point is, this is clearly very common symbolic language used to describe the destruction of a nation or kingdom, which means that Jesus was speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in Matthew 24 as being an event that would take place right before his return. So if we believe the destruction of Jerusalem took place, then we must also believe that Jesus' return took place, because the two events are linked by Jesus himself.

 

[Freedm]

This still avoids the facts that much of Revelation has not happened and there are VERY unique events that history could not ignore or forget like two people being dead, resurrecting and then ascending bodily into the heavens. Let's also not forget the greatest event ever prophesied, the second coming of Jesus Christ, is a global event that changes life on Earth forever. You think that happened? Obviously it did not.

Let's look at this another way. In Matthew 24, Jesus told a parable of a master who would return, and this was obviously an analogy about himself, but notice that in his analogy the master destroys those who were not ready.

The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This tells us that his return coincides with wrath, specifically the wrath against Jerusalem.

 

[Freedm]

This still avoids the facts that much of Revelation has not happened and there are VERY unique events that history could not ignore or forget like two people being dead, resurrecting and then ascending bodily into the heavens. Let's also not forget the greatest event ever prophesied, the second coming of Jesus Christ, is a global event that changes life on Earth forever. You think that happened? Obviously it did not.

If we can agree that Matthew 24 is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem, then it's easy to see the parallels in Revelation, which tells us that Revelation is speaking of the same event.

In Luke 11 Jesus says
Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

Revelation 18:24, speaking of the Harlot says
In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people, of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

We can also know that Jerusalem is the harlot in Revelation because Revelation 11:8 talks about "the great city where also the Lord was crucified".

So if we know that Revelation is speaking about the destruction of Jerusalem, and we know that this happened in 70 AD, then we know that it is in our past, not our future.

 

[ewq1938]

It's important to read the book, knowing that the symbolism is extremely heavy.

You know Jesus does not literally have a sword coming out of his mouth, and you know he does not literally hold seven stars in his hand. You know there is no literal great serpent spewing water out of its mouth like a river. You know the woman was not literally drunk with the blood of the saints and you know the beast does not literally have seven heads and ten horns. So why then do you expect the two witnesses to be two men who literally rise from the dead and fly up into the sky while the people are opening presents?

That's a drastically different type of description and language. You can't take literal language and turn it into symbolism. The two prophets are described as two people, who died, resurrect and are raptured into heaven. None of that is symbolic, nor is the resurrection of the saved or the rapture of the trib saints, who are real people BTW.

 

[ewq1938]

Let's look at this another way. In Matthew 24, Jesus told a parable of a master who would return, and this was obviously an analogy about himself, but notice that in his analogy the master destroys those who were not ready.

The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This tells us that his return coincides with wrath, specifically the wrath against Jerusalem.

There is nothing in the bible about Jesus destroying Jerusalem at his return. There is some damage from earthquakes but the city is not destroyed. It exists through the Millennium and still is there and unharmed when satan's army surrounds it.