What is the battle of Gog and Magog in Revelation 20:8?

[ewq1938]

So if we know that Revelation is speaking about the destruction of Jerusalem, and we know that this happened in 70 AD, then we know that it is in our past, not our future.

Jerusalem is not destroyed in any part of Rev. The OD has nothing to do with any destruction of Jerusalem, nor is the temple even mentioned as being destroyed. That *at best* was briefly mentioned at the temple before Christ went to the mount.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Israel and Judah were to be God's wives and they were. They both married God and both committed adultery and both were divorced.





That happened long ago. Now the only wedding to be is with the bride of Christ.

What leads you to believe Judah was divorced?

 

[ewq1938]

What leads you to believe Judah was divorced?

Jer 3:6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
Jer 3:7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Jer 3:9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
Jer 3:10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
Jer 3:11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.


God divorces Israel yet Judah was even more sinful! Surely we can assume that Judah had been divorced also but there are scriptures that speak of this as well:




Jeremiah 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

put her away
7971

07971 shalach {shaw-lakh'}

a primitive root; TWOT - 2394; v

AV - send 566, go 73, (send, put,...) forth 54, send away 48, lay 14,
send out 12, put 10, put away 7, cast out 7, stretch out 5,
cast 5, set 5, put out 4, depart 4, soweth 3, loose 3, misc 22; 847

1) to send, send away, let go, stretch out
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to send
1a2) to stretch out, extend, direct
1a3) to send away
1a4) to let loose
1b) (Niphal) to be sent
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to send off or away or out or forth, dismiss, give over, cast out
1c2) to let go, set free
1c3) to shoot forth (of branches)
1c4) to let down
1c5) to shoot
1d) (Pual) to be sent off, be put away, be divorced, be impelled
1e) (Hiphil) to send



To put a wife away is another way to speak of divorce.




Gill:

Jeremiah 3:8
And I saw, when for all the causes, whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery,.... Not only Judah saw, but God, who sees all things, saw the idolatry of the ten tribes which apostatized from him, and all the springs, causes, reasons, and occasions of it, and its consequences; and also the treachery, hardness, and idolatry of Judah:

I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; as men did, when they put away their wives, as they might lawfully do in case of adultery; and here being that which answered to it, spiritual adultery or idolatry, the Lord, who was married to this people, put them away from him, and caused them to be carried captive out of their own land into another, 2Ki_17:6 which is meant by the bill of divorce; so the Targum,

"I caused them to go into captivity, as those that give a bill of divorce (to their wives) and dismiss them:''


Barnes:

Jeremiah 3:8

Rather, “And I saw” that because apostate “Israel” had “committed adultery, I had put her away, and given her” the writing of her divorcement, “yet” false “Judah her sister feared not.”...The expression, “For all the causes whereby,” is probably the actual formula with which writings of divorcement commenced.


JFB:

Jeremiah 3:8

I saw that, though (whereas) it was for this very reason (namely), because backsliding (apostate) Israel had committed adultery I had put her away (2Ki_17:6, 2Ki_17:18), and given her a bill of divorce, yet Judah, etc. (Eze_23:11, etc.).
bill of divorce — literally, “a writing of cuttings off.” The plural implies the completeness of the severance. The use of this metaphor here, as in the former discourse (Jer_3:1), implies a close connection between the discourses. The epithets are characteristic; Israel “apostate” (as the Hebrew for “backsliding” is better rendered); Judah, not as yet utterly apostate, but treacherous or faithless.


SB:

Jeremiah 3:1-25

Contents: Jeremiah’s message concerning the impenitence of Judah. Encouragement to backsliders to return and repent.
Characters: God, Jeremiah.
Conclusion: Those will justly be divorced from God that join themselves to such as are rivals with Him, but God is ever ready to pardon sin and receive those who will return to Him humbly confessing their sins and acknowledging their dependence upon Him for salvation.




Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jeremiah 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:


"which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them"

This covenant is the marriage covenant which both broke.



Zechariah 10:6 And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them.


Judah was "cast off" by God.


cast ...off
2186

02186 zanach {zaw-nakh'}

a primitive root meaning to push aside; TWOT - 564; v

AV - cast...off 17, cast away 1, turn...away 1, removed...far off; 20

1) to cast off, reject, spurn
1a) (Qal) to reject
1b) (Hiphil) to forcefully reject someone
2) to stink, emit stench, become odious
2a) (Hiphil) stink (perfect)



This "casting off" is the same reference of divorcing as in "putting away" a wife found in Jeremiah 3:8. Judah and Israel were "cast off" just as Israel had been "put away", both are terms for divorce.




Mal_2:11 Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god.

Here Judah is either presented as a male who has married the daughter of a false god, or a female who has married the daughter of a false god. Either way, Judah is no longer married to God.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Jer 3:6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
Jer 3:7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Jer 3:9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
Jer 3:10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
Jer 3:11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.


God divorces Israel yet Judah was even more sinful! Surely we can assume that Judah had been divorced also but there are scriptures that speak of this as well:




Jeremiah 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

put her away
7971

07971 shalach {shaw-lakh'}

a primitive root; TWOT - 2394; v

AV - send 566, go 73, (send, put,...) forth 54, send away 48, lay 14,
send out 12, put 10, put away 7, cast out 7, stretch out 5,
cast 5, set 5, put out 4, depart 4, soweth 3, loose 3, misc 22; 847

1) to send, send away, let go, stretch out
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to send
1a2) to stretch out, extend, direct
1a3) to send away
1a4) to let loose
1b) (Niphal) to be sent
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to send off or away or out or forth, dismiss, give over, cast out
1c2) to let go, set free
1c3) to shoot forth (of branches)
1c4) to let down
1c5) to shoot
1d) (Pual) to be sent off, be put away, be divorced, be impelled
1e) (Hiphil) to send



To put a wife away is another way to speak of divorce.




Gill:

Jeremiah 3:8
And I saw, when for all the causes, whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery,.... Not only Judah saw, but God, who sees all things, saw the idolatry of the ten tribes which apostatized from him, and all the springs, causes, reasons, and occasions of it, and its consequences; and also the treachery, hardness, and idolatry of Judah:

I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; as men did, when they put away their wives, as they might lawfully do in case of adultery; and here being that which answered to it, spiritual adultery or idolatry, the Lord, who was married to this people, put them away from him, and caused them to be carried captive out of their own land into another, 2Ki_17:6 which is meant by the bill of divorce; so the Targum,

"I caused them to go into captivity, as those that give a bill of divorce (to their wives) and dismiss them:''


Barnes:

Jeremiah 3:8

Rather, “And I saw” that because apostate “Israel” had “committed adultery, I had put her away, and given her” the writing of her divorcement, “yet” false “Judah her sister feared not.”...The expression, “For all the causes whereby,” is probably the actual formula with which writings of divorcement commenced.


JFB:

Jeremiah 3:8

I saw that, though (whereas) it was for this very reason (namely), because backsliding (apostate) Israel had committed adultery I had put her away (2Ki_17:6, 2Ki_17:18), and given her a bill of divorce, yet Judah, etc. (Eze_23:11, etc.).
bill of divorce — literally, “a writing of cuttings off.” The plural implies the completeness of the severance. The use of this metaphor here, as in the former discourse (Jer_3:1), implies a close connection between the discourses. The epithets are characteristic; Israel “apostate” (as the Hebrew for “backsliding” is better rendered); Judah, not as yet utterly apostate, but treacherous or faithless.


SB:

Jeremiah 3:1-25

Contents: Jeremiah’s message concerning the impenitence of Judah. Encouragement to backsliders to return and repent.
Characters: God, Jeremiah.
Conclusion: Those will justly be divorced from God that join themselves to such as are rivals with Him, but God is ever ready to pardon sin and receive those who will return to Him humbly confessing their sins and acknowledging their dependence upon Him for salvation.




Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jeremiah 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:


"which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them"

This covenant is the marriage covenant which both broke.



Zechariah 10:6 And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them.


Judah was "cast off" by God.


cast ...off
2186

02186 zanach {zaw-nakh'}

a primitive root meaning to push aside; TWOT - 564; v

AV - cast...off 17, cast away 1, turn...away 1, removed...far off; 20

1) to cast off, reject, spurn
1a) (Qal) to reject
1b) (Hiphil) to forcefully reject someone
2) to stink, emit stench, become odious
2a) (Hiphil) stink (perfect)



This "casting off" is the same reference of divorcing as in "putting away" a wife found in Jeremiah 3:8. Judah and Israel were "cast off" just as Israel had been "put away", both are terms for divorce.




Mal_2:11 Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god.

Here Judah is either presented as a male who has married the daughter of a false god, or a female who has married the daughter of a false god. Either way, Judah is no longer married to God.

Hosea
And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.

7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the Lord their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

 

[ewq1938]

Hosea
And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.

7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the Lord their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

Great book. Full of interesting things.

Hos 5:12 Therefore will I be unto Ephraim as a moth, and to the house of Judah as rottenness.
Hos 5:13 When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.
Hos 5:14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.

So anyways, Judah was divorced and now they and all peoples need to wed Christ or be cast into fire.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Great book. Full of interesting things.

Hos 5:12 Therefore will I be unto Ephraim as a moth, and to the house of Judah as rottenness.
Hos 5:13 When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.
Hos 5:14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.

So anyways, Judah was divorced and now they and all peoples need to wed Christ or be cast into fire.

We cannot rely on that type of logic… If a man marries a woman and she cheats, and he divorces her…. Then he gets married again and the second wife cheats 10 times, that does not automatically mean he will divorce her.

And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

It is clear that God gave Israel a bill of divorce, you must show a bill given to Judah also.

 

[ewq1938]

We cannot rely on that type of logic… If a man marries a woman and she cheats, and he divorces her…. Then he gets married again and the second wife cheats 10 times, that does not automatically mean he will divorce her.

And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

It is clear that God gave Israel a bill of divorce, you must show a bill given to Judah also.

Nope. I posted that Judah was cast off, as well as her sister and how Judah married someone else so that and the other things do tell us God divorced Judah.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Nope. I posted that Judah was cast off, as well as her sister and how Judah married someone else so that and the other things do tell us God divorced Judah.

You could very well be right, can you point to a specific moment when the divorce to Judah was initiated?

 

[ewq1938]

You could very well be right, can you point to a specific moment when the divorce to Judah was initiated?

Israel was divorced after playing the harlot (and no exact date of this event but it's not a literal marriage or divorce anyways), and Judah continued in the same behavior and even worse behavior so it would have been soon after the divorce of Israel.

 

[Traveler]

Just as a side note. In the old testament times the land of Gog and Magog was located in the land area between the Black sea and Caspian sea. That area is currently occupied by a number of small countries that have all, at some stage been under the influence of the Muslims via the Persian empire as well as other empires previous. Currently they are largely under the influence of Russia. But the Islamic roots remain.


If you blow up the map you will see a lot of places mentioned in Ezekiel 38

 

[Freedm]

That's a drastically different type of description and language. You can't take literal language and turn it into symbolism. The two prophets are described as two people, who died, resurrect and are raptured into heaven. None of that is symbolic, nor is the resurrection of the saved or the rapture of the trib saints, who are real people BTW.

You say the death and resurrection of the two witnesses can not be symbolic, but do you believe the death and resurrection of the beast is symbolic? What's the difference? If one can be symbolic, so can the other.

 

[Freedm]

Israel was divorced after playing the harlot (and no exact date of this event but it's not a literal marriage or divorce anyways), and Judah continued in the same behavior and even worse behavior so it would have been soon after the divorce of Israel.

I noticed that you refer to Israel as the harlot, do you mean the harlot of Revelation?

 

[Freedm]

Jerusalem is not destroyed in any part of Rev. The OD has nothing to do with any destruction of Jerusalem, nor is the temple even mentioned as being destroyed. That *at best* was briefly mentioned at the temple before Christ went to the mount.

Is the harlot not destroyed in Revelation? I thought we agreed that Jerusalem is the harlot.

 

[ewq1938]

Is the harlot not destroyed in Revelation? I thought we agreed that Jerusalem is the harlot.

Jerusalem is not Babylon. In Rev Babylon is destroyed but Jerusalem is not. That alone proves they are separate things.

 

[ewq1938]

I noticed that you refer to Israel as the harlot, do you mean the harlot of Revelation?

No. I'm referring to verses like this:

Jer_3:6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.

 

[ewq1938]

You say the death and resurrection of the two witnesses can not be symbolic, but do you believe the death and resurrection of the beast is symbolic?

There is no such thing in the bible. The beast, the one with ten horns, is explained so it is a clear symbology. The two prophets (not two witnesses which is something else) are simply two men who are killed, resurrect and ascend into heaven. There is no symbology there just as John the baptist being killed is not symbolic. He was literal and he was literally killed.

What's the difference? If one can be symbolic, so can the other.

No, that is false. One cannot just make anything they want into something purely symbolic.

 

[strepho]

Revelation chapter 20 magog. Its satan and one third.

Revelation chapter 12 to document, satan deceived one third of God's children in first earth age. This was satan's rebellion. He wanted the Mercy seat.
Ezekiel chapter 28 to document, satan is dead man walking.

Were in second earth age. Peter chapter 3 will document 3 world ages.

One third are here now in the flesh. John chapter 3 to document, everyone must be born one time in the flesh, to decide to follow satan or Jesus.

Revelation chapter 13 to document, majority will worship antichrist near future. Again, we're talking about one third. At the 6th trump, the one third will worship antichrist.

Revelation chapter 20. Were in the millennium. At the end of millennium, the one third will follow satan into lake of fire.

We see pattern. All the way back to the first earth age.

On judgement day. Some people will declare satan their king. We see why many people will end up in lake of fire with satan.

I'm not judging anyone. Look at the patterns. We're talking about the one third. They will choose satan at end of millennium.

It shouldn't surprise anyone.

Second Timothy chapter 3 lays out what kind of people the one third are.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation chapter 12 to document, satan deceived one third of God's children in first earth age.

No part of Rev 12 covers "the first earth age". It starts off in the first century with the birth and death/ascension of Jesus, and much later speaks of something happening to 1/3 of angels but there is nothing there that says they were deceived or even joined satan not to mention satan will start a war soon after that so why would he remove angels from heaven if that is where he wants his loyal angels to fight with him? The interpretation doesn't line up.

 

[Freedm]

Jerusalem is not Babylon. In Rev Babylon is destroyed but Jerusalem is not. That alone proves they are separate things.

Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in AD 70. Also the entire chapter of Ezekiel 16 is devoted to describing Jerusalem as the prostitute.

There are further clues that make the identity of the harlot obvious. For example, in Revelation it says the harlot is drunk on the blood of the saints, and in in Luke Jesus says Jerusalem is responsible for the blood of the prophets. They're obviously both talking about Jerusalem, because there can not be two separate cities responsible for the blood of the prophets.

Revelation 18:24
In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people, of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

Luke 11:50-51
Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

Speaking to the leaders of Israel, Jesus said this judgment would take place against the current generation, and in the book of Revelation, John said it was regarding events that "must soon take place". The parallel is obvious.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Israel was divorced after playing the harlot (and no exact date of this event but it's not a literal marriage or divorce anyways), and Judah continued in the same behavior and even worse behavior so it would have been soon after the divorce of Israel.

Unfortunately I cannot take your word on that. We have clear documentation that God divorced Israel.

Jeremiah 3:8 KJV​

And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

You are merely assuming God must have divorced Judah also. The scriptures do not tell us that.

In fact the scriptures tell us must different.

“It appears that’s what God did with Israel, the northern kingdom. They were persistently unfaithful and cruel, so God “divorced” them, yet remained “married” to Judah, so He had not abandoned His covenantal promise to Abraham. But did He not then “divorce” Judah? The Lord certainly did bring judgment upon Judah, but throughout the prophets there are promises that God would bring redemption. Indeed, it is through Judah, through David’s line, that a Redeemer would come. So while God might have severed His unfaithful people from the covenant that they could not keep, He promised there would be a remnant that He would redeem for Himself. Paul talks about this in Romans 11.”
~ Colin D Smith

Let’s take a look at Romans 11
Romans 11:1 "I say then, hath God cast away His people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin."

So indeed God divorced Israel, but he did not divorced Judah, as He kept a remnant of believers in whom Christ would come through.