What is the burned over district?

[amadeus]

the church is apostolic and everything must have apostolic precedence

Everything eventually must be in accord with God's order. Which apostle exemplified that order always even after receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost?

For the moment God may be winking at the errors of some people, but as we become like Him, will He not wink less and less when we are out of His order?

Apostolic? Are we to become like the first apostles who followed Jesus in the flesh, or are we to become like Jesus?
Was not Judas an apostle?
Did not Barnabas and Paul disagree?
Did not Paul accuse Peter?

So, then who is our flawlessly perfect example? Which apostle would that be?

 

[amadeus]

"I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:" I Cor 14:18

Is there any reference in scripture of an interpretation of the tongues Paul used?

When we speak to or for other men, we must either speak the same language or have an interpreter. Silence in the Church when there is no interpreter present is for the benefit of men.

There is, however, no language which God does not understand.

 

[Pearl]

My question about an interpretation for Paul's speaking in tongues is in response to those who say there always must be an interpretation and the praying privately in tongues is not scriptural.

 

[charity]

'Wherefore, holy brethren,
partakers of the heavenly calling,
consider the Apostle
and High Priest of our profession,
Christ Jesus;
Who was faithful
to Him that appointed Him, ... '
(Heb 3:1-2a)

 

[theefaith]

Which church do you mean?

the one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles
The universal church

Major covenants!

God initiated each covenant and the mediator always remains on earth mediating the covenant except for Christ who made Peter His personal representative and vicar! (Matt 16:18)

Adam
(Marriage covenant)

Noah
(Family covenant)

Abraham
(Tribal covenant)

Moses:
(National covenant)

Jesus Christ:
(Universal covenant)

New and eternal covenant founded by Jesus Christ! Matt 16:18

Universal (Catholic)
World universal

Lk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. ( catholic universal) All men!

Lk 2:31 prepared before the face of all (catholic) people. All men!

Jn 1:29 lamb of God who takes way the sins of the world. All men!

Jn 3:16 for God so loved the world

1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. All men!

Lk 2: 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. All men!

11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. (All people universal) All men!

1 Tim 2:5 one mediator

Jn 10:16 One new covenant church

Kingdom

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

the holy Catholic Church

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[David H.]

they claim too!

show me being slain in the spirit in the Bible or speaking in tounges

Revelation 1:17. The presence of God will do this to you. I agree there are a lot of "false" slain in the Spirit stuff out there as well.

 

[Pearl]

the one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles
The universal church

You really don't get it do you. The One True Church is the Body of Christ who is the Rock of our Salvation.
John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Psalm 18:2
The Lord is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold

Psalm 95:1
Come, let us sing for joy to the Lord; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.

 

[theefaith]

Neither @Pearl or myself have even hinted belief in a "properity gospel". Please do not presume things about that we have not said. If you are uncertain, ask!

I have mentioned to you before about lumping people altogether as there were no differences between them. Even among Catholics, as you know, there are differences. If you are not paying attention to where we are in the Lord, why should anyone pay attention to what you are saying?

As to "no tongues" consider what Apostle Paul wrote about it:

"I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:" I Cor 14:18

"Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues." I Cor 14:39

I stand corrected
Maybe another generalization
I think most charismatics and prosperity gospel folks go together

 

[Pearl]

I stand corrected
Maybe another generalization
I think most charismatics and prosperity gospel folks go together

Another generalisation. We should all be charismatic to some degree as we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. It is He who moves us and inspires us.

 

[theefaith]

So again I ask if which gifts of the Spirit has the Holt Spirit given to you?

1 Corinthians 14:1-3
Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

1 Corinthians 12:8-10
To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

wisdom understanding counsel piety fear of the lord fortitude knowledge
And the fruits too

 

[theefaith]

Everything eventually must be in accord with God's order. Which apostle exemplified that order always even after receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost?

For the moment God may be winking at the errors of some people, but as we become like Him, will He not wink less and less when we are out of His order?

Apostolic? Are we to become like the first apostles who followed Jesus in the flesh, or are we to become like Jesus?
Was not Judas an apostle?
Did not Barnabas and Paul disagree?
Did not Paul accuse Peter?

So, then who is our flawlessly perfect example? Which apostle would that be?

his order is obedience to hierarchical authority of the apostles

 

[theefaith]

You really don't get it do you. The One True Church is the Body of Christ who is the Rock of our Salvation.
John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Psalm 18:2
The Lord is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold

Psalm 95:1
Come, let us sing for joy to the Lord; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.

There is Christ the rock of our salvation

and there is peter the rock upon which Christ built the church!

morning you can answer these questions and explain these verses

Peter is already administering the kingdom

Already acting in the person of Christ even acting as intermediator

It is Jesus Christ who identifies peter with himself!

Matt 17:24 And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?

25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the houser, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

It is Jesus Christ who identifies peter with himself! Matt 17:27

Jesus Christ gives the keys of the kingdom to peter matt 16:18-19 making him prime minister applying Isa 22:21-22 to peter

It’s Christ who does this

Only Peter and his successors have the keys (jurisdictional authority) from Christ to govern the church and administer the kingdom! Matt 16:18-19 Isa 22:21-22

Why does Christ change Peter’s name, God changing a persons name like Abram to Abraham or Jacob to Israel always signifies a mission or ministry!

Why does Christ give him the keys of jurisdictional authority that the prime minister holds under the king to administer the kingdom? Isa 22:21-22

How do you govern the church and administer the kingdom with a confession?

How do you give jurisdictional authority to a confession? (Keys of the kingdom)

How do you give a confession the power to bind and loose?


also have to explain
Isa 22:21-22 jurisdictional authority of the keys and called father
Matt 28:19 go teach baptize
Jn 20:21-23 same mission power and authority as christ
Eph 2:20 church built on the apostles
Matt 23 successors of Moses have the jurisdictional authority and the power to bind and loose which Christ says must be obeyed, then taken from them matt 21:43 given to Peter and the apostles and their successors

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.



Applies only to Peter as “prince of the apostles”!

Peter and his successors are the Leader of the apostles and the head of the church until Christ returns!

Matt 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Lk 22:32 Christ prayed for Peter!

Peter is head of the church on earth!

Isa 22:21-22 21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Matt 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt 23:1 power and authority of the kingdom known in the keys and binding and loosing, Matt 21:43 kingdom shall be taken from you given to another who will bear fruit. (Peter the apostles in holy church Lk 22:29)

Matt 17:27 Jesus identified peter with himself.

Matt 16:17 Peter alone received revelation from the Father

Lk 22:32 Peter to strengthen his brethren (the apostles)

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep

Peter exercises his authority over the apostles and the church!

Acts 1:15
Acts 3:4
Acts 5:5 5:10
Acts 15:7

ONLY TO PETER CHRIST SAID: THOU ART PETER AND UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILT MY CHURCH, AND THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT!Matt 16:18

Peter is the prime minister, father, and head of the church on earth until Christ returns Isa 22:21-22

Seat of peter remains Until Christ returns
Matt 28:19-20


Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.


Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

4 important questions:

1) How do you govern the church and administer the kingdom with a confession?

2) How do you give jurisdictional authority to a confession? (Keys of the kingdom)

3) How do you give a confession the power to bind and loose?

4) why did Christ give the keys to Peter (and only to Peter) keys of jurisdictional authority. Isa 22:21-22 why even bother to mention Peter if he is not involved?

Explain Jn 20:21 Peter and the apostles and their successors have the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! “As the father sent me, so I send you”!

Matt 28:19 christ communicates his authority to peter and the apostles to teach all nations, baptize all disciples!
Jn 20:21-23 apostles even have authority to forgive sins
Eph 2:20 church built on the apostles
Matt 23 the authority and power of the successors of Moses required to be obeyed are taken from them and given to Peter and the apostles

Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:

2 Tim 3: 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors founded in the one true church by Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) holy mother church replaced Israel Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Matt 16:17-19

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!

 

[theefaith]

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments


Must be taught by the holy church by the apostles! Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Acts 2:42

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

We must be taught by Peter, the apostles, and their successors! Lk 10:16 Matt 28:19 Jn 21:17 Jn 16:13 acts 2:42

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed

 

[amadeus]

My question about an interpretation for Paul's speaking in tongues is in response to those who say there always must be an interpretation and the praying privately in tongues is not scriptural.

My proof for me and your proof for you is in our personal experience... that is as part of our own testimony.

Anyone who does not have such a personal experience with this gift must simply accept [or not] the existence by faith [or not]. That is between them and God. I won't try to prove that my testimony is true. That is not in my job description.

Everyone in the beginning lives for God by faith, but sometimes God may add evidence to a person. He did that for us. Not everyone else can see it. "Eyes to see"!

Does the Bible show that an interpretation is always necessary? For every type of gift of tongues, no!

How many tongue gifts are there? More than one according to scripture!

"To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:" I Cor 12:10 [other translations use "different kinds" instead of "divers kinds"]

In a study on tongues I did many years ago I found at least three different kinds of tongues in the scriptures. Only one of those three involves or requires an interpreter.

 

[theefaith]

Another generalisation. We should all be charismatic to some degree as we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. It is He who moves us and inspires us.

Finally got it right!

 

[amadeus]

Revelation 1:17. The presence of God will do this to you. I agree there are a lot of "false" slain in the Spirit stuff out there as well.

There are likely a lot of false things in various places labeled by some as being of God. If we do not know, the "yea or nay" of it, perhaps we should be hesitant about making an absolute proclamation.

Our friend @theefaith has proclaimed openly on this forum that the man known as Pope Francis is false and should not be the Pope. I on the other hand do not believe that anyone should be a Pope...

 

[David H.]

and there is peter the rock upon which Christ built the church!

Peter's confession is the rock the church is built upon, "thou art the Christ the Son of the Living God". No Matter how many times you try to point this out to a Catholic they cannot see this, because this is so indoctrinated in their teachings.

 

[amadeus]

his order is obedience to hierarchical authority of the apostles

I disagree!

 

[David H.]

There are likely a lot of false things in various places labeled by some as being of God. If we do not know, the "yea or nay" of it, perhaps we should be hesitant about making an absolute proclamation.

Our friend @theefaith has proclaimed openly on this forum that the man known as Pope Francis is false and should not be the Pope. I on the other hand do not believe that anyone should be a Pope...

I know what @theefaith believes. I Have had discussions with him before. One of which is we are all called to be a royal priesthood as we mature to elders of the faith, not just a select class of people (Nicolaitanism= To Rule over the Laity).

 

[amadeus]

I know what @theefaith believes. I Have had discussions with him before. One of which is we are all called to be a royal priesthood as we mature to elders of the faith, not just a select class of people (Nicolaitanism= To Rule over the Laity).

Yes, he is an old school Catholic in ways not so far from what I was when I was growing up as a devout young altar boy. A major difference in Theefaith, however, is that he is familiar with the Bible.

While I was an active Catholic, I never owned or read a Bible and, unlike today, no one at that time ever read all of the Bible during the mass, not even the priest.