What is the Lords Day?

[Hobie]

Many people claim that this proves the Sabbath was changed using this verse..
Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

What is the Lord's day? Lets look in the Bible:

The "Lord's day" according to scripture, is the 7th day, the sabbath day of the Lord.

Genesis 2:1-3,4 - 'the seventh day', 'God', 'day', 'the LORD God' [… God [the LORD] … day …]

Exodus 16:23 - "the LORD", "to morrow [the seventh day] is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD' [... the LORD ... [day] ...]

Exodus 16:25 - 'to day [the seventh day]; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day' [... the LORD ... day]

Exodus 20:8-11 - 'the sabbath day', 'the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God', 'sabbath day' [... the LORD ... day ...]

Exodus 31:15 - 'the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD ... the sabbath day' [... the LORD ... day]

Exodus 35:2,3 - 'the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD', 'the sabbath day' [… the LORD … day …]

Leviticus 23:3 - 'the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD'

Deuteronomy 5:12,14 – 'the LORD', 'the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God' [… the LORD … day …]

Psalms 92:1 - 'A Psalm or Song for the sabbath day. It is a good thing to give thanks unto the LORD'

Isaiah 56:6 - 'Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath [day] from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant' (context new covenant) [... the LORD ... sabbath [day] ...]

Isaiah 58:13 - 'the sabbath ... my [the LORD's] holy day ... the holy [day] of the Lord' [... [the LORD's] ... day]

Isaiah 66:22,23 – 'the LORD', 'one sabbath [day] to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD' [… the LORD … [day] …]

Jeremiah 17:21 - 'saith the LORD... on the sabbath day' [... the LORD ... day]

Matthew 12:8 - 'the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day' [... the ... Lord ... day]

Mark 2:28 - 'the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day' [... the ... Lord ... day]

Luke 6:5 - 'the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath [day]' [... the ... Lord ... [day]]

Revelation 1:10 - 'the Lord's day'

There is no such thing as 'Sunday sacredness' in all of Scripture, except as a Mark of the Beast (Daniel 7:25).

The Sabbath is the 'Lords Day', not Sunday or the first day.

 

[Hobie]

Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say the Sabbath was changed to Sunday, you wont find it. Its clear what day is the Lords Day in scripture..

Exodus 20:8-11
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

It is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God, not Moses' sabbath, or the Jews sabbath, or anyone Else's sabbath.

Leviticus 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

We see the same.

Deuteronomy 5:12-13
12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. 13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: 14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Again the same.

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

It was not 'Moses' sabbath.

Leviticus 19:1-2
1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy. 3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 19:30 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 26:2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Isaiah 56:4-6
4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

Ezekiel 20:12-13
12Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. 13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Ezekiel 20:16 Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols.

Ezekiel 20:19-24
19I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;
20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God. 21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness. 22 Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand, and wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen, in whose sight I brought them forth. 23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries; 24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.

Ezekiel 22:8 Thou hast despised mine holy things, and hast profaned my sabbaths.

Ezekiel 22:26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

Ezekiel 23:38 Moreover this they have done unto me: they have defiled my sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned my sabbaths.

The Lord claims the sabbath as His very own. It is a day, therefore it is literally, the Lord's day. This clear so how many times must the Lord call the sabbath His day to understand that there is only one day in the scriptures that would be referred to as the Lord's day? Other than the seventh day sabbath, the Lord's day can also refer to the day on which He will return to this earth. That is all. Sunday, or the first day of the week is never referred to as the Lord's day in the scriptures.

This title was only applied to Sunday later on, to cover their deception. It was applied by those who began the apostasy and abomination which was the result of the amalgamation of apostate Christianity and pagan sun worship.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Many people claim that this proves the Sabbath was changed using this verse..
Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

We all know that in the OT the Sabbath Day was set aside as a respected day of the week. And so, weekly cycles became important in Jewish culture. We do not need a boatload of verses to prove this. It is an established and well-known part of Jewish Law.

However, the Christian Week evolved from this by tradition, and not by law, because for Christians, the Law of Moses had passed. And since Jesus was taken down from the cross before the Sabbath Day, and rose on the 3rd day, Christianity recognized Sunday as the day on which Christ arose.

It is from this that the Weekly cycle became known, by Christians, with the recognition that Sunday is the "Lord's Day." The weekly cycle was perpetuated by tradition, and not by law, with a special recognition of Sunday as the "Lord's Day." It didn't "replace" the Sabbath Law--it merely succeeded Sabbath observance under the Law with Sunday observances by tradition.

This can hardly be disputed since all through the centuries Sunday has been recognized as special, with respect to tradition and not law. Any argument about observing a special day *by law* was dismissed by Paul as "argumentation" over nothing, except that he allowed for traditional observances for people of faith.

That men of faith may observe days by tradition....

Rom 14.6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord.

That men of faith may *not* observe days by law...

Gal 4.9 .Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

 

[ScottA]

Sunday is simply the first day of beginning anew, new life, eternal life, celebrating the resurrection of Christ who rose the third day after being crucified, in whom we too have new life.

 

[Arthur81]

Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say the Sabbath was changed to Sunday, you wont find it. Its clear what day is the Lords Day in scripture..

Exodus 20:8-11
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

It is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God, not Moses' sabbath, or the Jews sabbath, or anyone Else's sabbath.

Leviticus 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

We see the same.

Deuteronomy 5:12-13
12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. 13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: 14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Again the same.

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

It was not 'Moses' sabbath.

Leviticus 19:1-2
1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy. 3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 19:30 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 26:2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Isaiah 56:4-6
4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

Ezekiel 20:12-13
12Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. 13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Ezekiel 20:16 Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols.

Ezekiel 20:19-24
19I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;
20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God. 21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness. 22 Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand, and wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen, in whose sight I brought them forth. 23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries; 24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.

Ezekiel 22:8 Thou hast despised mine holy things, and hast profaned my sabbaths.

Ezekiel 22:26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

Ezekiel 23:38 Moreover this they have done unto me: they have defiled my sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned my sabbaths.

The Lord claims the sabbath as His very own. It is a day, therefore it is literally, the Lord's day. This clear so how many times must the Lord call the sabbath His day to understand that there is only one day in the scriptures that would be referred to as the Lord's day? Other than the seventh day sabbath, the Lord's day can also refer to the day on which He will return to this earth. That is all. Sunday, or the first day of the week is never referred to as the Lord's day in the scriptures.

This title was only applied to Sunday later on, to cover their deception. It was applied by those who began the apostasy and abomination which was the result of the amalgamation of apostate Christianity and pagan sun worship.

An agreement on one point, the First Day of the week did not become a New Covenant sabbath. No such command for that change exists.

I disagree on honoring the 7th day sabbath for the following reasons.

1. The Old Covenant was given specifically to Israel, Deut. 4:8 & Lev 27:34. I've never been a physical Jew living in the centuries BC.

2. Moses said there would be a prophet like himself raised up by God in the future, and God's people are to listen to Him. God will put his words in that prophet's mouth requiring obedience. Moses is recorded stating this in Deut. 18:15-19

This prophecy is applied to Jesus Christ in Acts 3:22-23

3. The Old Covenant was abolished at the cross: Eph. 2:15; Col. 2:14; 2 Cor. 3:7-11 & Heb 8:13

4. Jesus commissioned the 11 Apostles in these words:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (Matt 28:19-20, NRSV)

5. Nowhere in the New Covenant is the 7th day of the week commanded to be kept as a sabbath

6. The church honored the 1st day of the week because that was day Jesus was resurrected.
Therefore we have "the Lord's Supper" and "the Lord's Day" which honors Christ, not Moses.

7. The first day of the week, the Lord's Day is the 7th day after 6 days of work, so that satisfies the created narrative.

8. I do not quibble or fuss at someone if they wish to hold to the 7th day, based on Rom. 14:4-6

9. But, if someone wishes to judge me for honoring the 1st day of the week as the Lord's day, I remember Paul's words -

"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain." (Gal 4:9-11, KJV)

as well as -

"Therefore do not let anyone condemn you in matters of food and drink or of observing festivals, new moons, or sabbaths. These are only a shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." (Col 2:16-17, NRSV)

Jesus lived under the Old Covenant so that context needs to be kept in mind as we read his words recorded in the gospels.

 

[Triumph1300]

What is the Lords Day?

Every day.

 

[Hobie]

We all know that in the OT the Sabbath Day was set aside as a respected day of the week. And so, weekly cycles became important in Jewish culture. We do not need a boatload of verses to prove this. It is an established and well-known part of Jewish Law.

However, the Christian Week evolved from this by tradition, and not by law, because for Christians, the Law of Moses had passed. And since Jesus was taken down from the cross before the Sabbath Day, and rose on the 3rd day, Christianity recognized Sunday as the day on which Christ arose.

It is from this that the Weekly cycle became known, by Christians, with the recognition that Sunday is the "Lord's Day." The weekly cycle was perpetuated by tradition, and not by law, with a special recognition of Sunday as the "Lord's Day." It didn't "replace" the Sabbath Law--it merely succeeded Sabbath observance under the Law with Sunday observances by tradition.

This can hardly be disputed since all through the centuries Sunday has been recognized as special, with respect to tradition and not law. Any argument about observing a special day *by law* was dismissed by Paul as "argumentation" over nothing, except that he allowed for traditional observances for people of faith.

That men of faith may observe days by tradition....

Rom 14.6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord.

That men of faith may *not* observe days by law...

Gal 4.9 .Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

What "tradition", it wasnt from Christ, it wasnt from the Apostles, or anything in Gods Word. So what was it and from what origin.
If we look, we find in history many sources that point out the origins of this "tradition" ....

...the "temples, incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, Holidays, and seasons of devotion, processions, blessings of the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests, munks and nuns), images, and statues... are all of PAGAN ORIGIN." -The Development of the Christian Religion Cardinal Newman p.359

The penetration of the religion of Babylon became so general and well known that Rome was called the "New Babylon." -Faith of our fathers 1917 ed. Cardinal Gibbons, p. 106

"Confiding then in the power of Christianity to resist the infection of evil, and to transmute the instruments and appendages of demon worship to an evangelical use... the rulers of the church from early times were prepared should occasion arise, to adopt, or imitate, or sanction the existing rites and customs of the populace." -Development of Christian Doctrine, Cardinal Newman. p. 372

Cardinal Newman lists many examples of things of "pagan origin" which the papacy brought into the church "in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen: "in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen:" "The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; holy water; asylums [hermitages, monasteries and convents]; [pagan] holy-days, processions, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images, . . . and the Kyrie Eleison."--Cardinal J. H. Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, 1920 edition, p.373 [Roman Catholic].

"The [Catholic] Church took the pagan philosophy and made it the buckler of faith against the heathen. She took the pagan Roman Pantheon, temple of all the gods, and made it sacred to all the martyrs; so it stands to this day. She took the pagan Sunday and made it the Christian Sunday. She took the pagan Easter and made it the feast we celebrate during this season . . . The Sun was a foremost god with heathendom . . . The sun has worshipers at this hour in Persia and other lands . . . Hence the Church would seem to say, 'Keep that old pagan name [Sunday]. It shall remain consecrated, sanctified.' And thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder, became the Christian Sunday, sacred to Jesus"--William L. Gildea, "Paschale Gaudium," in The Catholic World, 58, March, 1894, p. 809 [A Roman Catholic weekly].
"in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen:" "The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; holy water; asylums [hermitages, monasteries and convents]; [pagan] holy-days, processions, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images, . . . and the Kyrie Eleison."--J. H. Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, 1920 edition, p.373 [Roman Catholic].

"The mighty Catholic Church was little more then the Roman Empire baptized."-- A. C, Flick, The Rise of the Mediaeval Church, 1909 edition, p. 148. From ancient Babylon came the cult of the virgin mother-goddess, who was worshiped as the highest of gods--see S. H. Langdon, Semitic Mythology, 1931 edition. This worship was taken over as Mary-worship by Rome. Heathen sun-worship on Sunday was likewise adopted by the Roman apostasy.

"In order to attach to Christianity great attraction in the eyes of the nobility, the priests adopted the outer garments and adornments which were used in pagan cults." -Life of Constantine, Eusabius, cited in Altai-Nimalaya, p. 94

"The Church did everything it could to stamp out such 'pagan' rites, but had to capitualet and allow the rites to continue with only the name of the local diety changed to some Christian saint's name." -Religious Tradition and Myth. Dr. Edwin Goodenough, Professor of Religion, Harvard University. p. 56, 57...

And more...

 

[Hobie]

"From the foregoing, which treats merely of the more important solar festivals, it is clear that these products of paganism are as much in force at present ... as they ever were, and that Christianity countenances, and in many cases has actually adopted and practiced, pagan rites whose heathen significance is merely lost sight of because attention is not called tot the source whence these rites have sprung. So heavy was this infiltration that Sir Samuel Dill exclaims: "Christianity is only a sect of the Mithraists." -Roman Society from Nero to Marcus Aurelius, p. VII

"We know that Mithraism was a state religion of Rome at the time that the Christian church was established there. Evidently tenants of Mithraism such as Sunday worship and eating the wafer in the mass were adopted into Christianity at that time" -Jim Arrabito "666 & the Mark"

In Stanley's History, page 40: "The popes filled the place of the vacant emperors at Rome, inheriting
their power, their prestige, and their titles from PAGANISM."

"In short, sun worship, symbolically speaking, lies at the very heart of the great festivals which the Christian Church celebrates today, and these relics of heathen religion have, through the medium of their sacred rites, curiously enough blended with practices and beliefs utterly antagonistic to the spirit which prompted them." -Sun Lore of All Ages, Olcott, p. 248

"Yet the cross itself is the oldest of phallic emblems, and the lozenge-shaped windows of cathedrals are proof that the yonic symbols have survived the destructions of the pagan Mysteries. The very structure of the church itself is permeated with (sexual symbolism) phallicism. Remove from the Christian Church all emblems of Priapic origin and nothing is left..." -The secret teaching of all ages by Manley P. Hall

"When the zealots of the primitave Christian Church sought to Christianize paganism, the pagan initiates retorted with a powerful effort to paganize Christianity. The Christians failed but the pagans succeeded. With the decline of paganism the initiated pagan hierophants transferred their base of operations to the new vehicle of primitive Christianity, adopting the symbols of the new cult to conceal those eternal verities which are ever the priceless possession of the wise." -The secret teachings of all ages, Manley P. Hall p. CLXXXV

"...The world, cloaked with a form of righteousness, walked into the church. Now the work of corruption rapidly progressed. Paganism, while appearing to be vanquished, became the conqueror. Her spirit controlled the church. Her doctrines, ceremonies, and superstitions were incorporated into the faith and worship of the professed followers of Christ." -The Great Controversy, p. 50

"The belief in miracle-working objects, talismans, amulets, and formulas was dear to Christianity, and they were received from pagan antiquity . . . The vestments of the clergy and the papal title of 'pontifex maximus' were legacies from pagan Rome. The [Catholic] Church found that rural converts still revered certain springs, wells, trees, and stones; she thought it wiser to bless these to Christian use then to break too sharply the customs of sentiment . . . Pagan festivals dear to the people, reappeared as Christian feasts, and pagan rites were transformed into Christian liturgy . . . The Christian calendar of saints replaced the Roman 'fasti' [gods]; ancient divinities dear to the people were allowed to revive under the names of 'Christian saints' . . . Gradually the tenderest features of Astarte, Cybele, Artemis, Diana, and Isis were gathered together in the worship of Mary"--Wil Durant, The Age of Faith, 1950, pp. 745-746.

Langdon tells us that Mary worship came from ancient Babylon where the virgin mother-goddess was worshiped under the name "Ishtar." Elsewhere in the Near East, the mother-goddess was called "Astarte, Ashtoreth, Persephone, Artemis, [Diana] of Ephesus, Venus, and Isis." This goddess, considered to be greater than any god, was called by these heathen the "virgin mother, merciful mother, Queen of Heaven, and my lady" [which is what "Madonna" means in Italian]. Langdon says she was often sculptured in mother-and-infant images, or as a "mater dolorom" [sorrowful mother] interceding for men with a wrathful god. And thus ancient paganism was brought into the churches and lives of Christians.--see S.H. Langdon, Semitic Mythology, 1931 edition, pp. 12-34, 108-111, 341-344. Laing mentions several other corruptions by which the mother-goddess was worshiped by heathens, that Rome adopted into Christianity: holy water, votive offerings, elevation of sacred objects [lifting of the host], the priest's bells, the decking of images, processions, festivals, prayers for the dead, the worship of relics and the statues of saints.--see Gordon J. Laing, Survivals of Roman Religion, 1931 edition, pp. 92-95, 123-131,238-241.

Two dominant elements brought into Christianity from paganism by Rome were Sun worship symbols and the religious practices of ancient Babylon] "The solar theology of the Chaldaeans [Babylonians], had decisive effect . . . [upon the] final form reached by the religion of the pagan Semites, and following them, by that of the Romans when [the Roman emperor] Aurelian, the conqueror of Palmyra, had raised 'Sol Invictus' [the invincible sun-god] to the rank of supreme divinity in the Empire"--The Cambridge Ancient History, vol. 11, pp. 643, 646-647. From Palmyra he transferred to the new sanctuary the images of Helios [the sun-god] and Bel, the malaise patron god of Babylon--see Cumont, The Oriental Religions In Roman Paganism, 1911 edition, pp. 114-115, 124.

"The [Catholic] Church took the pagan philosophy and made it the buckler of faith against the heathen. She took the pagan Roman Pantheon, temple of all the gods, and made it sacred to all the martyrs; so it stands to this day. She took the pagan Sunday and made it the Christian Sunday. She took the pagan Easter and made it the feast we celebrate during this season . . . The Sun was a foremost god with heathendom . . . The sun has worshipers at this hour in Persia and other lands . . . Hence the Church would seem to say, 'Keep that old pagan name [Sunday]. It shall remain consecrated, sanctified.' And thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder, became the Christian Sunday, sacred to Jesus"--William L. Gildea, "Paschale Gaudium," in The Catholic World, 58, March, 1894, p. 809 [A Roman Catholic weekly].

"The removal of the capital of the Empire from Rome to Constantinople in 330, left the Western Church, practically free from imperial power, to develop its own form of organization. The Bishop of Rome, in the seat of the Caesars, was now the greatest man in the West, and was soon [when the barbarians over-ran the empire] forced to become the political as well as the spiritual head."--A.C. Flick, The Rise of the Mediaval Church p. 168.

"Whatever Roman elements the barbarians and Aryans left . . . [came] under the protection of the Bishop of Rome, who was the chief person there after the Emperor's disappearance . . . The Roman Church in this way privily pushed itself into the place of the Roman World-Empire, of which it is the actual continuation; the empire has not perished, but has only undergone a transformation . . . It [the Catholic Church] is a political creation, and as imposing as a World-Empire, because [it is a continuation of] the Roman Empire. The Pope, who calls himself 'King' and 'Pontifex Maximus' [the title of the Roman Emperor in the time of Christ], is Caesar's successor."--Adolf Harnack, What is Christianity? 1963, pp. 269-270.

"Long ages ago, when Rome through the neglect of the Western emperors was left to the mercy of the barbarous hordes, the Romans turned to one figure for aid and protection, and asked him to rule them; and thus, . . . commenced the temporal sovereignty of the popes. And meekly stepping to the throne of Caesar, the vicar of Christ took up the scepter to which the emperors and kings of Europe were to bow in reverence through so many ages."--American Catholic Quarterly Review, April, 1911.

[Speaking of the time, about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was crumbling to pieces:] "No, the [Catholic] Church will not descend into the tomb. It will survive the Empire . . . At length a second empire will arise, and of this empire the Pope will be the master--more then this, he will be the master of Europe. He will dictate his orders to kings who will obey them"--Andrea Lagarde, The Latin Church in the Middle Ages, 1915, p. vi.

"From the foregoing, which treats merely of the more important solar festivles, it is clear that these products of paganism are as much in force at present... as they ever were, and that Christianity countenances, and in many cases has actually adopted and practiced, pagan rites whose heathen significance is merely lost sight of because attention is not called to the source whence those rites have spring. So heavy was this infiltration that Sir Samuel Dill exclaims: "Christianity is only a sect of the Mithraists." -Roman Society from Nero to Marcus Aurelius. P. viif

So from history we see the tradition the church at Rome was following did exist, but it wasn't the tradition of the Apostles or from scripture as we can see from the changes, to say nothing of Christ or His resurrection.

 

[Hobie]

An agreement on one point, the First Day of the week did not become a New Covenant sabbath. No such command for that change exists.

I disagree on honoring the 7th day sabbath for the following reasons.

1. The Old Covenant was given specifically to Israel, Deut. 4:8 & Lev 27:34. I've never been a physical Jew living in the centuries BC.

2. Moses said there would be a prophet like himself raised up by God in the future, and God's people are to listen to Him. God will put his words in that prophet's mouth requiring obedience. Moses is recorded stating this in Deut. 18:15-19

This prophecy is applied to Jesus Christ in Acts 3:22-23

Well, lets look and see as many Christians have failed to grasp the meaning of the two covenants, they were both by faith.

A covenant was a solemn promise and/or agreement, often confirmed by an oath in ancient times. There is still much misunderstanding about the most basic significance of the covenants, and the law and especially to how it relates to Christians today. If you ask the question, "When did the old covenant begin?" most people would think it was on Sinai, when the law was given. But if you ask, "When did the new covenant begin?" they really dont know what to say, but one text can clarify the situation.

Jeremiah 31:31-33
“31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This text contains the basic elements of both covenants and also helps in understanding them.

The old covenant has the time, "I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt".
It has the covenant partners, "I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"
It has the covenant objective, "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
It has the covenant conditions, "my law"
Now let’s look at the new covenant in Hebrews 8:8-10:

“8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"

Using the same passage which is repeated, the same elements are found for the New Testament, except for the difference in time.”

The new covenant has the time, "Behold, the days come".
It has the covenant partners, "a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:"
It has the covenant objective, " I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:".
It has the covenant conditions, "my laws"
So except for the time element, there is no difference between the two covenants. The covenant partners are the same, the covenant objective is the same, and the covenant conditions are the same. The old Covenant and the new Covenant are the same, it was by faith and denying self and trusting in God, and we are transformed. We see it here.

Matthew 16:24-25
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 10:1-17
1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

John 10:27
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 12:25-26
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

The covenants are one and the same, and there is only one gospel, and it is the gospel of Jesus Christ which is of faith. It was always that way from Adam on down. If you have been lead to believe that the apostles preached and taught a different message than that of Christ, you are being deceived.

 

[Arthur81]

Well, lets look and see as many Christians have failed to grasp the meaning of the two covenants, they were both by faith.

A covenant was a solemn promise and/or agreement, often confirmed by an oath in ancient times. There is still much misunderstanding about the most basic significance of the covenants, and the law and especially to how it relates to Christians today. If you ask the question, "When did the old covenant begin?" most people would think it was on Sinai, when the law was given. But if you ask, "When did the new covenant begin?" they really dont know what to say, but one text can clarify the situation.

Jeremiah 31:31-33
“31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This text contains the basic elements of both covenants and also helps in understanding them.

The old covenant has the time, "I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt".
It has the covenant partners, "I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"
It has the covenant objective, "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
It has the covenant conditions, "my law"
Now let’s look at the new covenant in Hebrews 8:8-10:

“8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"

Using the same passage which is repeated, the same elements are found for the New Testament, except for the difference in time.”

The new covenant has the time, "Behold, the days come".
It has the covenant partners, "a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:"
It has the covenant objective, " I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:".
It has the covenant conditions, "my laws"
So except for the time element, there is no difference between the two covenants. The covenant partners are the same, the covenant objective is the same, and the covenant conditions are the same. The old Covenant and the new Covenant are the same, it was by faith and denying self and trusting in God, and we are transformed. We see it here.

Matthew 16:24-25
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 10:1-17
1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

John 10:27
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 12:25-26
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

The covenants are one and the same, and there is only one gospel, and it is the gospel of Jesus Christ which is of faith. It was always that way from Adam on down. If you have been lead to believe that the apostles preached and taught a different message than that of Christ, you are being deceived.

I did not say the Old Covenant people were saved differently than the New Covenant people. We're both saved by faith in the coming One represented in the Old Covenant sacrifices, and taking place at the First Advent.

The law of God existed before Moses lived: about murder, Gn 9:5, 6; adultery, 20:3; idolatry, Gn 35:2-4, theft, 21:25 and it exists today, Rom. 13:8-10.

I'm a Gentile and I was NEVER under the Old Covenant, the Law of Moses. I was covered by God's law as seen:

"When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them" (Rom 2:14-15, NRSV)

The Old Covenant was indeed given through Moses and is represented by the Ten Commandments -

"He was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments." (Exod 34:28, NRSV)

"And he did the same with the cup after supper, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood." (Luke 22:20, NRSV)

That is very clear when the new covenant began. It was at the cross! We know what the relationship is between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant here:

"In speaking of 'a new covenant,' he has made the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear." (Heb 8:13, NRSV) * It was surely made to disappear in any sort of practice in AD 70!!

"You have not come to something that can be touched, a blazing fire, and darkness, and gloom, and a tempest, and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that not another word be spoken to them. (For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even an animal touches the mountain, it shall be stoned to death.” Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.”) But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel." (Heb 12:18-24, NRSV)

The assembly of Jesus Christ, the church, is Mount Zion! Believers are in Christ, the mediator of the new covenant.

New Covenant believers in Christ continue the people of God called "Israel" -

"But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God." (Gal 6:14-16, RSV)

I'm always cautious when men spend so much verbiage trying to change the direct statements in the scriptures. The word of God alone can give us the answers without the scripture twisting of Judaizers and salvation by works reprobates.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What "tradition", it wasnt from Christ, it wasnt from the Apostles, or anything in Gods Word. So what was it and from what origin.
If we look, we find in history many sources that point out the origins of this "tradition" ....

Paul had a number of traditions that are *inferred* in Scriptures. Paul said, at times, "this is our practice," for example. They weren't law, but they were good practices in the context of the times, which were pagan. For example, Paul recommended not doing anything that may stumble a brother which in that pagan era may look like "sin."

Paul went out of his way to do things not required of him but things that he thought would be helpful if he sacrificed a little...

Matt 9.19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.

In the matter of practices not spelled out as law, he indicated that by his own good judgment certain things should not be done. For example, with women praying in church Paul called for women to cover their heads...

1 Cor 11.2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you... 13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.

I'm certainly not saying women today have to wear hats in church, but in the time Paul made it a required practice, due to the confusion over gender roles. It was a "tradition."

...the "temples, incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, Holidays, and seasons of devotion, processions, blessings of the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests, munks and nuns), images, and statues... are all of PAGAN ORIGIN." -The Development of the Christian Religion Cardinal Newman p.359

The penetration of the religion of Babylon became so general and well known that Rome was called the "New Babylon." -Faith of our fathers 1917 ed. Cardinal Gibbons, p. 106

"Confiding then in the power of Christianity to resist the infection of evil, and to transmute the instruments and appendages of demon worship to an evangelical use... the rulers of the church from early times were prepared should occasion arise, to adopt, or imitate, or sanction the existing rites and customs of the populace." -Development of Christian Doctrine, Cardinal Newman. p. 372

Yes, Christianity certainly did pick up some pagan elements along the way, which hopefully were met with reform later on. But to consign all Christian traditions to the dustbin simply because they borrowed something that *appeared* to be pagan is over the top. Christian music artists developed Contemporary Christian Music from the music of the culture not just because they learned music from their pagan roots, but also because these artists wanted to reach the people who were where they were.

"A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" was a bar melody turned into a Christian anthem by Martin Luther. Paul dressed like a Jew to reach the Jews, and observed Jewish traditions so as to not offend them while he was sharing the Gospel with them. Things are not pagan simply because pagans claimed to own certain things! God owns this earth!

It is a completely different matter to deal with sacerdotalism in Christianity--the tendency to turn religion into dead ritual, to a formality empty of true spirituality. The traditions practiced in dead churches are not bad because they have pagan roots--rather, they are simply empty of any religious value because the people practicing them are spiritually dead.

The Catholics, in their very dry formality at times have created a Christian/Pagan mix of religion. In my view Mariolatry fits into this category, along with Praying for the Dead, the virtual Deification of the Pope when on his "throne," Purgatory, and as Luther pointed out, Indulgences. There are probably a lot more.

I have no problem with you criticizing some of these things. But keep in mind that if you wish to reach dead people you need to bring a message of life to them. And you won't do that by being too negative.

 

[mailmandan]

The Lord's Day - Revelation 1:10 ... The First Day!

 

[Hobie]

I did not say the Old Covenant people were saved differently than the New Covenant people. We're both saved by faith in the coming One represented in the Old Covenant sacrifices, and taking place at the First Advent.

The law of God existed before Moses lived: about murder, Gn 9:5, 6; adultery, 20:3; idolatry, Gn 35:2-4, theft, 21:25 and it exists today, Rom. 13:8-10.

I'm a Gentile and I was NEVER under the Old Covenant, the Law of Moses. I was covered by God's law as seen:

"When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them" (Rom 2:14-15, NRSV)

The Old Covenant was indeed given through Moses and is represented by the Ten Commandments -

"He was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments." (Exod 34:28, NRSV)

"And he did the same with the cup after supper, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood." (Luke 22:20, NRSV)

That is very clear when the new covenant began. It was at the cross! We know what the relationship is between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant here:

"In speaking of 'a new covenant,' he has made the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear." (Heb 8:13, NRSV) * It was surely made to disappear in any sort of practice in AD 70!!

"You have not come to something that can be touched, a blazing fire, and darkness, and gloom, and a tempest, and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that not another word be spoken to them. (For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even an animal touches the mountain, it shall be stoned to death.” Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.”) But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel." (Heb 12:18-24, NRSV)

The assembly of Jesus Christ, the church, is Mount Zion! Believers are in Christ, the mediator of the new covenant.

New Covenant believers in Christ continue the people of God called "Israel" -

"But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God." (Gal 6:14-16, RSV)

I'm always cautious when men spend so much verbiage trying to change the direct statements in the scriptures. The word of God alone can give us the answers without the scripture twisting of Judaizers and salvation by works reprobates.

Its the same thing, it was always was to be by faith and written in the hearts and minds of the people...

Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

It clearly is the same thing in the NT or the OT from the 'direct statements' of the scripture..

 

[Hobie]

Paul had a number of traditions that are *inferred* in Scriptures. Paul said, at times, "this is our practice," for example. They weren't law, but they were good practices in the context of the times, which were pagan. For example, Paul recommended not doing anything that may stumble a brother which in that pagan era may look like "sin."

Paul went out of his way to do things not required of him but things that he thought would be helpful if he sacrificed a little...

Matt 9.19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.

In the matter of practices not spelled out as law, he indicated that by his own good judgment certain things should not be done. For example, with women praying in church Paul called for women to cover their heads...

1 Cor 11.2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you... 13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.

I'm certainly not saying women today have to wear hats in church, but in the time Paul made is a required practice, due to the confusion over gender roles. It was a "tradition."


Yes, Christianity certainly did pick up some pagan elements along the way, which hopefully were met with reform later on. But to consign all Christian traditions to the dustbin simply because they borrowed something that *appeared* to be pagan is over the top. Christian music artists developed Contemporary Christian Music from the music of the culture not just because they learned music from their pagan roots, but also because these artists wanted to reach the people who were where they were.

"A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" was a bar melody turned into a Christian anthem by Martin Luther. Paul dressed like a Jew to reach the Jews, and observed Jewish traditions so as to not offend them while he was sharing the Gospel with them. Things are not pagan simply because pagans claimed to own certain things! God owns this earth!

It is a completely different matter to deal with sacerdotalism in Christianity--the tendency to turn religion into dead ritual, to a formality empty of true spirituality. The traditions practiced in dead churches are not bad because they have pagan roots--rather, they are simply empty of any religious value because the people practicing them are spiritually dead.

The Catholics, in their very dry formality at times have created a Christian/Pagan mix of religion. In my view Mariolatry fits into this category, along with Praying for the Dead, the virtual Deification of the Pope when on his "throne," Purgatory, and as Luther pointed out, Indulgences. There are probably a lot more.

I have no problem with you criticizing some of these things. But keep in mind that if you wish to reach dead people you need to bring a message of life to them. And you won't do that by being too negative.

Well lets see what this apostate church says about what it did...

Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday. -Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50


Q. Should not the Protestant doubt when he finds that he himself holds tradition as a guide?
A. Yes, if he would but reflect that he has nothing but Catholic Tradition for keeping the Sunday holy; ... Controversial Catechism by Stephen Keenan, New Edition, revised by Rev. George Cormack, published in London by Burns & Oates, Limited - New York, Cincinnati, Chicago: Benzinger Brothers, 1896, pages 6, 7.

"The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day. The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians." The Catholic Encyclopedia, Commandments of God, Volume IV, © 1908 by Robert Appleton Company, Online Edition © 1999 by Kevin Knight, Nihil Obstat - Remy Lafort, Censor Imprimatur - +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York, page 153.

''The [Roman Catholic] Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.'' The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.

"All of us believe many things in regard to religion that we do not find in the Bible. For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath Day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the Church outside the Bible." The Catholic Virginian, "To Tell You The Truth,” Vol. 22, No. 49 (Oct. 3, 1947).

"... you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify." The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, 88th edition, page 89. Originally published in 1876, republished and Copyright 1980 by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., pages 72-73.

'Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God... The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.'' Catholic Record, September 1, 1923.

"But since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn't it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes, of course, it is inconsistent; but this change was made about fifteen centuries before Protestantism was born, and by that time the custom was universally observed. They have continued the custom, even though it rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text in the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away - like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair." The Faith of Millions

'If Protestants would follow the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.' Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920.

'It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.'Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ on March 18, 1903. This Rock

'The observance of Sunday by the Protestants is homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] Church.' Monsignor Louis Segur, 'Plain Talk about the Protestantism of Today';, p. 213.

I dont think there is any question who is the corrupter of the truth and they make no bones about it...

 

[St. SteVen]

Many people claim that this proves the Sabbath was changed using this verse..
Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

What is the Lord's day? Lets look in the Bible:

No. the Sabbath was NOT changed to Sunday.
Christians are NOT under the law that God gave to the Israelites through Moses.

The "Lord's day" according to scripture, is the 7th day, the sabbath day of the Lord.

I don't agree with that. The writings of the eary church defines the Lord's Day as Sunday.

The Lord's Day in Christianity is generally Sunday, the principal day of communal worship.

Lord's Day - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[amigo de christo]

The Lord's Day - Revelation 1:10 ... The First Day!

Hit the trenches its all out war for the souls of men in these last hours upon earth .
Point to CHRIST JESUS and all Things HE Taught , all sound lovely biblical doctrine .
The hour is late .

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

Many people claim that this proves the Sabbath was changed using this verse..
Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

What is the Lord's day? Lets look in the Bible:

The "Lord's day" according to scripture, is the 7th day, the sabbath day of the Lord.

Genesis 2:1-3,4 - 'the seventh day', 'God', 'day', 'the LORD God' [… God [the LORD] … day …]

Exodus 16:23 - "the LORD", "to morrow [the seventh day] is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD' [... the LORD ... [day] ...]

Exodus 16:25 - 'to day [the seventh day]; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day' [... the LORD ... day]

Exodus 20:8-11 - 'the sabbath day', 'the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God', 'sabbath day' [... the LORD ... day ...]

Exodus 31:15 - 'the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD ... the sabbath day' [... the LORD ... day]

Exodus 35:2,3 - 'the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD', 'the sabbath day' [… the LORD … day …]

Leviticus 23:3 - 'the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD'

Deuteronomy 5:12,14 – 'the LORD', 'the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God' [… the LORD … day …]

Psalms 92:1 - 'A Psalm or Song for the sabbath day. It is a good thing to give thanks unto the LORD'

Isaiah 56:6 - 'Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath [day] from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant' (context new covenant) [... the LORD ... sabbath [day] ...]

Isaiah 58:13 - 'the sabbath ... my [the LORD's] holy day ... the holy [day] of the Lord' [... [the LORD's] ... day]

Isaiah 66:22,23 – 'the LORD', 'one sabbath [day] to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD' [… the LORD … [day] …]

Jeremiah 17:21 - 'saith the LORD... on the sabbath day' [... the LORD ... day]

Matthew 12:8 - 'the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day' [... the ... Lord ... day]

Mark 2:28 - 'the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day' [... the ... Lord ... day]

Luke 6:5 - 'the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath [day]' [... the ... Lord ... [day]]

Revelation 1:10 - 'the Lord's day'

There is no such thing as 'Sunday sacredness' in all of Scripture, except as a Mark of the Beast (Daniel 7:25).

The Sabbath is the 'Lords Day', not Sunday or the first day.

Sunday is the day of the sun god, sol invictus, unconquerable sun(or something like that) instituted in the AD200's (guestimate) mandating everybody was to be relieved of work on sunday. Because of anti semitism, the laodicea bishopric changed worship from sabbath to sunday in the 300s AD (guestimate) as it was not judaized. Everybody was off that day anyways. FYI - What is the shortest day in the year Dec 22. Plus 3 days for resurrection? Yes rebirth of the sungod.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well lets see what this apostate church says about what it did...

Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday. -Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50


Q. Should not the Protestant doubt when he finds that he himself holds tradition as a guide?
A. Yes, if he would but reflect that he has nothing but Catholic Tradition for keeping the Sunday holy; ... Controversial Catechism by Stephen Keenan, New Edition, revised by Rev. George Cormack, published in London by Burns & Oates, Limited - New York, Cincinnati, Chicago: Benzinger Brothers, 1896, pages 6, 7.

I already answered these points. It seems you have an agenda, and consider it your duty to promote that agenda? It isn't an issue with me if dead Catholics make Sabbath observance into a law. Biblically, Sabbath observance is acceptable as a tradition, but not as a law. And I'm not sure all Catholics see Sabbath observance as a requirement? I believe not. Nor are all Catholics dead.

Quite frankly, making 7th Day Adventists the litmus test as to who is truly walking with God is absurd. Making your choice Saturday instead of Sunday is no better than those who make Sunday observance a law. We should serve God every day of the week--not just on Saturday or Sunday!

So you've put a picture of the Sunday observing church up on your wall, and have drawn a target on it. Then you enjoy throwing darts at it, when you should be interested in reaching out to spiritually-dead Christians. Your choice....

 

[mailmandan]

I already answered these points. It seems you have an agenda, and consider it your duty to promote that agenda? It isn't an issue with me if dead Catholics make Sabbath observance into a law. Biblically, Sabbath observance is acceptable as a tradition, but not as a law. And I'm not sure all Catholics see Sabbath observance as a requirement? I believe not. Nor are all Catholics dead.

Quite frankly, making 7th Day Adventists the litmus test as to who is truly walking with God is absurd. Making your choice Saturday instead of Sunday is no better than those who make Sunday observance a law. We should serve God every day of the week--not just on Saturday or Sunday!

So you've put a picture of the Sunday observing church up on your wall, and have drawn a target on it. Then you enjoy throwing darts at it, when you should be interested in reaching out to spiritually-dead Christians. Your choice....

Seventh day Adventists teach that near the end of time the “mark of the beast” of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday. Go figure.

Mark of the Beast

Bible Truth Versus SDA Doctrine - Mark of the Beast

www.nonsda.org

 

[Randy Kluth]

Seventh day Adventists teach that near the end of time the “mark of the beast” of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday. Go figure.

Mark of the Beast

Bible Truth Versus SDA Doctrine - Mark of the Beast

www.nonsda.org

Really? I didn't know that! Well, my view of 7DA's just went down the tube. Obviously, the leadership is as corrupt as the church itself, if that is their priority. I never had a bad view of them, apparently because I didn't know how they really felt?