What is the one true Church?

[MatthewG]

Illuminator,

Every Christian has a priest.

Christ Is Our High Priest​

14 So then, since we have a great High Priest who has entered heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we believe. 15 This High Priest of ours understands our weaknesses, for he faced all of the same testings we do, yet he did not sin.16 So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most.

 

[Illuminator]

There are 4 of them found in the Nicene Creed. One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. If you think the Nicene Creed is wrong, we have to re-invent the wheel and explain the Incarnation.

Created by flawed men and believing in that creed doesnt save you.

The Nicene Creed is a statement of the Christian faith that includes salvation, and excludes the Arian heresy that challenged the identity of Christ. But, it's just as I suspected. You reject the Nicene Creed and consequently, have a warped view of the Incarnation. That's why you fail to understand the Church is an extension of the Incarnation, united by the Eucharist. Moses was a murderer and David was a murderer and an adulterer so your "flawed men" theory makes no sense.

 

[Illuminator]

Illuminator,

Every Christian has a priest.

Christ Is Our High Priest
14 So then, since we have a great High Priest who has entered heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we believe. 15 This High Priest of ours understands our weaknesses, for he faced all of the same testings we do, yet he did not sin.16 So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most.

That's an excuse for having no deacons, priests or bishops; offices clearly found in the NT that you don't have.

 

[MatthewG]

Yes but all it is a statement made by men.

It doesn't have to adhere too, is what I am saying.

What does need to be adhered to? Loving God, with your heart, mind, and all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself.



You have no Idea of anything that I believe, because you have never really sat down and talked with me about it.

God governs people who are his by his spirit. Yes there are teachers out there, and that is great, but God is the one whom needs to be feared, and to work out ones own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[MatthewG]

@Illuminator,

What is so important to you about having bishops or deacons?

You said something very odd to me, when stating the Christ Jesus, the Lord, who is the Savior and leader in Salvation, to all who seek him - that is no excuse to not have bishops or deacons.

There is no use for them. Though people can teach in this world, and teach the Bible. It doesn't make them the authority in spiritual things, nor are they the 'safeguards' of who is deemed Christian or who has not been deemed a Christian, based on 'if they are acquainted with a church as being a member. I have nothing against Catholic people as individuals, if you are catholic, hey I love you as a brother in Christ Jesus, if you are a follower of him.

 

[Illuminator]

@Illuminator,

What is so important to you about having bishops or deacons?

Christianity without consistency is not Christianity. The Bible is not a do-it-yourself manual where you can just delete biblical offices to force-fit it into your world view.

You said something very odd to me, when stating the Christ Jesus, the Lord, who is the Savior and leader in Salvation, to all who seek him - that is no excuse to not have bishops or deacons.

That's not what I said. Jesus is High Priest, but that does not automatically rule out ministerial priests, and the common priesthood does not automatically rule out ministerial priests. The structure or ecclesiology of the Church is modelled after the Davidic Kingdom, not AT&T or Microsoft.

There is no use for them.

Then why are they in the Bible with specific roles in union with other believers???

Though people can teach in this world, and teach the Bible. It doesn't make them the authority in spiritual things, nor are they the 'safeguards' of who is deemed Christian or who has not been deemed a Christian, based on 'if they are acquainted with a church as being a member. I have nothing against Catholic people as individuals, if you are catholic, hey I love you as a brother in Christ Jesus, if you are a follower of him.

That's the problem: "the authority in spiritual things" in your privatized system is determined by the individual, and not by any authority. The Bible doesn't teach that.
Church Authority does not mean "dominating dictatorship in spiritual things". I see that garbage in here everyday from made-in-America Bible cults; it's stupid and insulting. You haven't gone that low.



“All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16–17).

This passage doesn’t teach formal sufficiency, which excludes a binding, authoritative role for Tradition and Church. Protestants extrapolate onto the text what isn’t there. If we look at the overall context of this passage, we can see that Paul makes reference to oral Tradition three times (cf. 2 Tim. 1:13–14; 2:2; 3:14). And to use an analogy, let’s examine a similar passage:

“And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ” (Eph. 4:11–15).

If 2 Timothy 3 proves the sole sufficiency of Scripture, then, by analogy, Ephesians 4 would likewise prove the sufficiency of pastors and teachers for the attainment of Christian perfection. In Ephesians 4, the Christian believer is equipped, built up, brought into unity and mature manhood, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church. This is a far stronger statement of the perfecting of the saints than 2 Timothy 3, yet it does not even mention Scripture.

So if all non-scriptural elements are excluded in 2 Timothy, then, by analogy, Scripture would logically have to be excluded in Ephesians. It is far more reasonable to recognize that the absence of one or more elements in one passage does not mean that they are nonexistent. The Church and Scripture are both equally necessary and important for teaching.

A Quick Ten-Step Refutation of Sola Scriptura

Catholics agree with Protestants that Scripture is a “standard of truth”—even the preeminent one—but not in a sense that rules out the binding authority of authentic apostolic Tradition and the Church. The Bible doesn’t teach that.

www.catholic.com

 

[MatthewG]

You have the right to make your own decisions buddy. I reject sola scriptura, i do believe in sola spiritus. Im done talking anout it now though. I tired. I dont hate catholics; but i can hate an organization if it has manipulated many people, yet alone the abuse and power over others in the name of God for selfish ambition. Many organizations have this issue when it comes to abuse by “religion”, many people still lost, and still in need of jesus.


Jesus to me is the king, no one else, and all have access to the Father by faith snd i love knowing that God is only pleased by faith.

“And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction, for in this were the elders testified of; by faith we understand the ages to have been prepared by a saying of God, in regard to the things seen not having come out of things appearing; by faith a better sacrifice did Abel offer to God than Cain, through which he was testified to be righteous, God testifying of his gifts, and through it, he being dead, doth yet speak. By faith Enoch was translated — not to see death, and was not found, because God did translate him; for before his translation he had been testified to — that he had pleased God well, and apart from faith it is impossible to please well, for it behoveth him who is coming to God to believe that He is, and to those seeking Him He becometh a rewarder.”

‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

Hebrews 11:1-6 And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction, for in this were the elders testified of; by faith we understand the ages to have been prepared by a saying of God, in | Young's Literal Translation 1898

And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction, for in this were the elders testified of; by faith we understand the ages to have been prepared by a saying of God, in

bible.com

 

[MatthewG]

I havent once said


Never meet up and discuss an share the bible with others who wanna learn,

Share the gospel because it is power of God into salvation…

I also havent once really said “not to go and visit any churches” people have the freedom and choice to do what they want.

Only in the end to be judged.

And I love all people; even those who may teach but witj wrong motive. But only God can truly judge at the end. And he looking for those who have faith, loving God and loving others.


So while people can teach it doesnt mean thry have your best intrest ay heart.

 

[amadeus]

@MatthewG

Hello old friend. Consider in your thoughts on this also these verses penned by the Apostle Paul:

Eph 4:11	And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12	For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13	Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14	That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15	But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16	From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

 

[MatthewG]

I have stated many times that I have no trouble with people teaching, @amadeus.

Yes those verses are there, and there many teachings out there, some are good, some are bad.

Some are works based, some are you need to do a little this and that to be okay with God.


My projection is looking past even though sure you could have been taught by your dad, grandpa, personal friend, maybe your mom about God.

That is normally the authority we grow up with - but there is a spiritual authority that is higher and more better which leads to loving God and loving others.









There was a set up section of people in that day in age, which Paul is writing to... which were going to be perfect church bride for Christ to return and come get.

Back then they were still under the commandmnets of the Apostles whom Jesus Christ left in Charge.



Its now God who is charge and who is able to work on peoples hearts and minds by writing on them, and sending his spirit to be with them, if they seekers in faith towards Him, whom sent his son.









SO I do not get where people need to seek out authority on spiritual matters - when you can pray and ask God and do the work yourself, maybe that is selfish but it seems like you can do that and God will not strike you down.


Because it is said you can ask God for wisdom as long as your not doubting or trying to spending something on your pleasures.

 

[amadeus]

I have stated many times that I have no trouble with people teaching, @amadeus.

Yes those verses are there, and there many teachings out there, some are good, some are bad.

Some are works based, some are you need to do a little this and that to be okay with God.
I am not arguing against your point of view. Rather just consider what Paul wrote. Perhaps not everyone has or needs the five ministers mentioned in those verses, but I believe that some do at some point in their walk with God. Are there some that do not? I can only answer that I did. My experience is not necessarily to be the experience on every believer.

My projection is looking past even though sure you could have been taught by your dad, grandpa, personal friend, maybe your mom about God.

My earliest experience with God was enhanced by Catholic nuns and priests. I was the only one in my immediate family for many years who made any apparent [to me] at serving God.

That is normally the authority we grow up with - but there is a spiritual authority that is higher and more better which leads to loving God and loving others.

Being led by the Holy Spirit is perhaps the authority about which you speak. With that I would certainly agree.

There was a set up section of people in that day in age, which Paul is writing to... which were going to be perfect church bride for Christ to return and come get.

Back then they were still under the commandmnets of the Apostles whom Jesus Christ left in Charge.



Its now God who is charge and who is able to work on peoples hearts and minds by writing on them, and sending his spirit to be with them, if they seekers in faith towards Him, whom sent his son.









SO I do not get where people need to seek out authority on spiritual matters - when you can pray and ask God and do the work yourself, maybe that is selfish but it seems like you can do that and God will not strike you down.

Not every person is the same. Surely you agree with that. Some people for at least a period of time do need the help of men. God would work through some people in that many even as He sometimes works through you or me or on this forum.

Because it is said you can ask God for wisdom as long as your not doubting or trying to spending something on your pleasures.

Give God the glory my friend!

 

[MatthewG]

Yes Ama, I do, but they should be weary though!

If someone doesn't encourage you to read the bible on your own and explore and ask God.

And they just tell you stuff and you dont go check it out, be careful not to be manipulated!

That is what I worry about really, cause people abuse people and can manipulate and use people at any given time.

 

[MatthewG]

Also I dont think there is any authority given to anyone that has the holy spirit, @amadeus.

I believe all authority belongs to God, the Lord God Almighty. And He is the ultimate authority which he can make a person realize what they are doing by the holy spirit putting in on their heart of whatever it is that may have been wrong. The Holy Spirit, is the Spirit of God.

 

[amadeus]

Yes Ama, I do, but they should be weary though!

If someone doesn't encourage you to read the bible on your own and explore and ask God.

And they just tell you stuff and you dont go check it out, be careful not to be manipulated!

That is what I worry about really, cause people abuse people and can manipulate and use people at any given time.

I certainly agree here. Even in my day also as a young man I encountered too many putting on show to win people effectively to themselves instead of to God. How hungry and thirsty is a person for the righteousness of God? Will He not fill even a newby who knows little?

Mt 5:6

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled

 

[amadeus]

Also I dont think there is any authority given to anyone that has the holy spirit, @amadeus.

I believe all authority belongs to God, the Lord God Almighty. And He is the ultimate authority which he can make a person realize what they are doing by the holy spirit putting in on their heart of whatever it is that may have been wrong. The Holy Spirit, is the Spirit of God.

How much authority did Jesus have over devils and demons according to the gospel narratives? How like Jesus are we now and how much like him can we become?

 

[MatthewG]

How much authority did Jesus have over devils and demons according to the gospel narratives? How like Jesus are we now and how much like him can we become?

It depends on the context.

From what is understood by Pauls letters is that our flesh is what one is die to, along with dying to sin, by mortifying the deeds of the body become alive unto God and alive towards Christ, allowing Christ to manifest with-in you by the spirit of Christ you are given along with the holy spirit given from God through faith.

Yes, it is true that the flesh starts to die away, the more one puts their faith and builds upon the chief corner stone.

However, it doesn't give anyone authority over anything - unless it specifically say something to you about doing so.

From my understanding it is up to you as an individual to ask God to help you with your problems, but you also must make your own effort in also trying to either put down a problem on is having or let go, and let God be, and pray.

 

[amadeus]

It depends on the context.

Would it not depend upon the individual and his walk with and his calling from God? How much authority does God have over you and me during our allotted time here in the flesh? Only as much as we give Him. Many times, I believe, God or His Son, is knocking on a man's door wanting to come into that man's heart, but too often the man declines to open the door. He wants to continue traveling his own way for his own purposes. God wants to have the authority over the man, but He will NOT force His way inside of us. We must invite Him. When we have extended the invitation by opening our heart [the door] to Him then we have given the authority back to God. Of course, when allotted runs out [time of natural death] we have then the reward we have chosen when we chose NOT to open unto Him.

From what is understood by Pauls letters is that our flesh is what one is die to, along with dying to sin, by mortifying the deeds of the body become alive unto God and alive towards Christ, allowing Christ to manifest with-in you by the spirit of Christ you are given along with the holy spirit given from God through faith.

To kill [mortify] the deeds and ways of the flesh, we need help. God provides the help to those who sincerely ask of Him and surrender themselves to His authority. The help is through the Helper, the Holy Spirit. Without Him we can do nothing... that is nothing in accord with God's will.

2co 3:5	Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2co 3:6	Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Yes, it is true that the flesh starts to die away, the more one puts their faith and builds upon the chief corner stone.

However, it doesn't give anyone authority over anything - unless it specifically say something to you about doing so.

If a person surrenders his own will completely to God's, then the authority is God's in us. How many people actually do that? Anyone who sincerely surrenders in part does it in part, but how many have surrendered as completely to God as did Jesus? Again, the question, how much like Him can we become. Consider what John wrote here:

1jo 3:2

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

But first go back to what Paul wrote here:

1co 13:9	For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1co 13:10	But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

When is that which is perfect come to you or to me or to anyone else? Could it be when we have finally and completely surrendered our own will to God's will?

From my understanding it is up to you as an individual to ask God to help you with your problems, but you also must make your own effort in also trying to either put down a problem on is having or let go, and let God be, and pray.

If we give it all that we have continuously, perhaps then God will take up the slack, since our own efforts alone cannot bring us to the goal:

Mr 10:26	And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
Mr 10:27	And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

 

[MatthewG]

Only is it the strength of Christ.

Strength found in Christ is the only strength that will not fail you. He is strong enough to carry your burdens with you as you run the race with endurance (Hebrews 12:1). I pray these verses will help remind you that God's strength will get you through.

to mortify the deeds is to do such by the spirit - asking God to help you


for if ye live according to the flesh ye shall die, but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body ye shall live.

Living as Those Made Alive in Christ​

3 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature:sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.[b] 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewedin knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Ephesians 4:31-32 King James Version (KJV)
Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

[Brakelite]

Ok….They weren’t invisible. That means they left some trace of their existence. Based on your theory I will accept your version of Christian history. With that said:

Can you share any of the historical writings from these “mission focused“ “bishops/overseers“?

Serious? You no doubt believe yourself to be very clever, demanding writings from a people, for example the Waldenses, who were all but exterminated from the face of the earth were it not for the intervention of the protestant nations of Europe. As if your Catholic overlords were going to leave anything behind as a testimony to their spiritual superiority over the ignorant murderers that spent centuries attempting to destroy them.
As for the churches of the East, they also were persecuted and the majority wiped out by such as Tammerlane.
But there are numerous historians that testify to their existence.

 

[Marymog]

Serious? You no doubt believe yourself to be very clever, demanding writings from a people, for example the Waldenses, who were all but exterminated from the face of the earth were it not for the intervention of the protestant nations of Europe. As if your Catholic overlords were going to leave anything behind as a testimony to their spiritual superiority over the ignorant murderers that spent centuries attempting to destroy them.
As for the churches of the East, they also were persecuted and the majority wiped out by such as Tammerlane.
But there are numerous historians that testify to their existence.

Soooo the Waldenses were this “invisible” church you speak of with bishops and overseers?

Curious Mary