What is the one true Church?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,956
3,407
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What he is trying to do is nullify an institution given in Eden to sinless man by using scripture out of context.....that is/ are the catholic facts the which the greater majority of Protestants decidedly go along with.
The very FIRST mention of the Sabbath in ALL of Scripture is when the Israelites are in the desert Ex 16:23-30. God commands them to take a day of rest and eat what they gathered.

WHAT dud they gather? Jesus tells us about that in John 6:
John 6:31-34

“Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”

Read CAREFULLY what Jesus says next . . .
John 6:35

Jesus said to them, “I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

HE is the entire reason for the Sabbath – and He FULFILLED it with His death and resurrection.
- It was INSTITUTED for the eating of the Bread from Heaven (Manna).
- It was FULFILLED by the eating of the Bread of Life (Jesus).

This is why the NT Church gathered on the LORD’S Day – the FIRST day of the week (Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:2, Rev. 1:10) - and NOT on the Sabbath which has been fulfilled.

And this is ALSO why the Apostles did NOT impose the Law on Gentile Christians as we read in their letter in Acts 15:23-29.
 
Last edited:

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,268
5,331
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What he is trying to do is nullify an institution given in Eden to sinless man by using scripture out of context.....that is/ are the catholic facts the which the greater majority of Protestants decidedly go along with.
Anything specific?
You guys are all over the place.
 
Last edited:

quietthinker

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
11,916
7,779
113
FNQ
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
The very FIRST mention of the Sabbath in ALL of Scripture is when the Israelites are in the desert Ex 16:23-30. God commands them to take a day of rest and eat what they gathered.

WHAT dud they gather? Jesus tells us about that in John 6:
John 6:31-34

“Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”

Read CAREFULLY what Jesus says next . . .
John 6:35

Jesus said to them, “I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

HE is the entire reason for the Sabbath – and He FULFILLED it with His death and resurrection.
- It was INSTITUTED for the eating of the Bread from Heaven (Manna).
- It was FULFILLED by the eating of the Bread of Life (Jesus).

This is why the NT Church gathered on the LORD’S Day – the FIRST day of the week (Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:2, Rev. 1:10) - and NOT on the Sabbath which has been fulfilled.

And this is ALSO why the Apostles did NOT impose the Law on Gentile Christians as we read in their letter in Acts 15:23-29.
Yes, I understand, they are catholic facts who have based their reality on out of context cobblings; they are not the facts as presented in the scriptures.

The guardians of Israel, the religious elite did the same thing, they used scripture and killed the Prince of Life
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,268
5,331
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, I understand, they are catholic facts who have based their reality on out of context cobblings; they are not the facts as presented in the scriptures.

The guardians of Israel, the religious elite did the same thing, they used scripture and killed the Prince of Life
Do you have a specific point?
Do you have some scriptures you would like to present?
 

strepho

Active Member
Jan 31, 2023
405
124
43
51
Meriden
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Revelation chapter 2 and 3. Smyrna and Philadelphia are God's Elect. The election teach sound doctrine and who the kenites are. Jesus found fault with the other 5 churches. Jesus can't use preachers who are compromised or teach tradition of men. Corinthians chapter 3. The apostates broke away from the true foundation of christ and formed denominations. They teach tradition of men and false doctrine. The answer is Philadelphia and smyrna.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,997
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Protestants like to point out that the Catholic Church was a merge between Paganism and Christianity....that is a fact to some degree. But it did not start with Emperor Constantine and the Catholic Church......it started with Paul and even Christ.
What kind of a foolish statement is this? Paul and Christ introduced paganism into Christianity? Now we have heard it all.
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,268
5,331
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What kind of a foolish statement is this? Paul and Christ introduced paganism into Christianity? Now we have heard it all.
Well first, introduced Pagans. Converted Pagans.....ya know Gentiles. And they brought in their cultures......which are still here. If you will do a study of Christian cultures and holidays around the world, you will find that some of what they do today.......are Christianized Pagan customs and holidays that go back long before the 1st century.
 

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
8,570
6,415
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Well first, introduced Pagans. Converted Pagans.....ya know Gentiles. And they brought in their cultures......which are still here. If you will do a study of Christian cultures and holidays around the world, you will find that some of what they do today.......are Christianized Pagan customs and holidays that go back long before the 1st century.
That is grossly misleading, and a denial of the power of the gospel, (2 Tim. 3:1-5) assuming those who were converted to Christ in those earlier years never repented and never forsook their past lives.
Only a hundred years after the death of the apostle John, the Assyrian Christians had planted their churches among the Parthians, Persians, Medes, Bactrians, Scythians, Turks, and Huns. One circumstance which made this possible was the conversion of thousands of listeners on the Day of Pentecost who returned with the gospel to the Parthians, Medes, Elamites, Arabians, and dwellers in Mesopotamia. (Acts 2:9-11.) The truths of Christianity broke down entrenched polygamy among the Parthians. Their church doors were opened only to those Parthians who had but one wife. The “motions of sin in the flesh” vanished in the converts who walked no longer after the flesh, but after the spirit. Among their Persian converts, they had found incest universally practiced. Fathers married their daughters, and sons took their mothers to wife. This practice was part of Zoroastrianism, the state religion. The anger of the state, as well as the wrath of the mobeds, the Magian priests, was brought down on anyone who spoke against it. All this was changed among the Christians. Preaching the high standards of the New Testament also elevated the industrial life of the Medes, Bactrians, Huns, and Scythians. The powers of darkness fell before the children of light! Bardesanes, writing about 180, puts it this way:
We are called Christians by the one name of the Messiah. As regards our customs our brethren abstain from everything that is contrary to their profession, e.g., Parthian Christians do not take two wives. Jewish Christians are not circumcised. Our Bactrian sisters do not practice promiscuity with strangers. Persians do not take their daughters to wife. Medes do not desert their dying relations or bury them alive. Christians in Edessa do not kill their wives or sisters who commit fornication but keep them apart and commit them to the judgment of God. Christians in Hatra do not stone thieves.
Particular attention is called to the statement in the foregoing quotation, “Jewish Christians are not circumcised.” This refutes the charge that Christians who sanctified Saturday also practiced circumcision. The successes of the Assyrian Christians among the Scythians constituted a moral revolution. That vast, undefined region, lying north and east of the Black and Caspian Seas, generally known as Scythia, was a cradle of nations. Over and over again, successive waves of fierce warriors drove westward through the civilized parts of Asia. Often they settled in the territory they conquered and founded new kingdoms. One Scythian tribe in particular may be noted. It seized the territory of northwestern India, which was then ruled by the successors of Alexander the Great, and founded the Kushan dynasty (A.D. 45-225). It had in its list several notable kings, one of which, fervently devoted to Buddhism, called a famous council of Buddhist priests with the intent of promoting unity among the monks and of converting the whole world to the new religion of India. One chief object sought in this conference was to bring uniformity among the Buddhist monks on the observance of their weekly sabbath. A world convention held at Vaisali reveals how the Old Testament had impressed upon Buddha and his followers the weekly observance of a sacred day. Of this council Arthur Lloyd writes: Was it permissible for brethren belonging to the same community to keep the sabbaths separately?... We can see how strong was the current of party feeling from the question about the sabbath. The opposing parties could evidently no longer meet together for the joint celebration of the customary observances, and the tension between the monks of the east and the west was very great. Thus it is plainly seen how the field had been prepared for the coming of Christianity.
There is powerful and irrefutable evidence that the Sabbath was observed throughout these territories, and Sunday observance practiced only in Alexandria and Rome, at least until the council of Laodicea in the 4th century.
But to take the conversion of pagans at Pentecost for example as evidence of the Genesis of the inroads of pagan culture into Christianity is wrong. Admittedly, there were individuals who attempted to take advantage of Christianity to their own pecuniary gain, such as Simon Magus, but these were quickly singled out and corrected by true leaders of the faith... Until after Constantine when the whole world virtually walked into the Roman church unconverted.
 
Last edited:

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
8,570
6,415
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
It absolutely was a shadow (2 Col. 16-17),
And I alrady showed you how it coints to Christ in th Eucharist - the REAL Bread from Heaven (John 6:32-71).
There is no connect between the Sabbath and your eucharist. And rather than deal at length with your misplaced Catholic theology, I shall refer you to just 2 verses which ought to speak to you regarding truth, if you have ears to hear.
KJV John 6:63, 68
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

And in case you ain't listening, here's one more...
KJV Matthew 4:4
  1. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,268
5,331
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is grossly misleading, and a denial of the power of the gospel, (2 Tim. 3:1-5) assuming those who were converted to Christ in those earlier years never repented and never forsook their past lives.
Only a hundred years after the death of the apostle John, the Assyrian Christians had planted their churches among the Parthians, Persians, Medes, Bactrians, Scythians, Turks, and Huns. One circumstance which made this possible was the conversion of thousands of listeners on the Day of Pentecost who returned with the gospel to the Parthians, Medes, Elamites, Arabians, and dwellers in Mesopotamia. (Acts 2:9-11.) The truths of Christianity broke down entrenched polygamy among the Parthians. Their church doors were opened only to those Parthians who had but one wife. The “motions of sin in the flesh” vanished in the converts who walked no longer after the flesh, but after the spirit. Among their Persian converts, they had found incest universally practiced. Fathers married their daughters, and sons took their mothers to wife. This practice was part of Zoroastrianism, the state religion. The anger of the state, as well as the wrath of the mobeds, the Magian priests, was brought down on anyone who spoke against it. All this was changed among the Christians. Preaching the high standards of the New Testament also elevated the industrial life of the Medes, Bactrians, Huns, and Scythians. The powers of darkness fell before the children of light! Bardesanes, writing about 180, puts it this way:
We are called Christians by the one name of the Messiah. As regards our customs our brethren abstain from everything that is contrary to their profession, e.g., Parthian Christians do not take two wives. Jewish Christians are not circumcised. Our Bactrian sisters do not practice promiscuity with strangers. Persians do not take their daughters to wife. Medes do not desert their dying relations or bury them alive. Christians in Edessa do not kill their wives or sisters who commit fornication but keep them apart and commit them to the judgment of God. Christians in Hatra do not stone thieves.
Particular attention is called to the statement in the foregoing quotation, “Jewish Christians are not circumcised.” This refutes the charge that Christians who sanctified Saturday also practiced circumcision. The successes of the Assyrian Christians among the Scythians constituted a moral revolution. That vast, undefined region, lying north and east of the Black and Caspian Seas, generally known as Scythia, was a cradle of nations. Over and over again, successive waves of fierce warriors drove westward through the civilized parts of Asia. Often they settled in the territory they conquered and founded new kingdoms. One Scythian tribe in particular may be noted. It seized the territory of northwestern India, which was then ruled by the successors of Alexander the Great, and founded the Kushan dynasty (A.D. 45-225). It had in its list several notable kings, one of which, fervently devoted to Buddhism, called a famous council of Buddhist priests with the intent of promoting unity among the monks and of converting the whole world to the new religion of India. One chief object sought in this conference was to bring uniformity among the Buddhist monks on the observance of their weekly sabbath. A world convention held at Vaisali reveals how the Old Testament had impressed upon Buddha and his followers the weekly observance of a sacred day. Of this council Arthur Lloyd writes: Was it permissible for brethren belonging to the same community to keep the sabbaths separately?... We can see how strong was the current of party feeling from the question about the sabbath. The opposing parties could evidently no longer meet together for the joint celebration of the customary observances, and the tension between the monks of the east and the west was very great. Thus it is plainly seen how the field had been prepared for the coming of Christianity.
There is powerful and irrefutable evidence that the Sabbath was observed throughout these territories, and Sunday observance practiced only in Alexandria and Rome, at least until the council of Laodicea in the 4th century.
But to take the conversion of pagans at Pentecost for example as evidence of the Genesis of the inroads of pagan user into Christianity is wrong. Admittedly, there were individuals who attempted to take advantage of Christianity to their own pecuniary gain, such as Simon Magus, but these were quickly singled out and corrected by true leaders of the faith... Until after Constantine when the whole world virtually walked into the Roman church unconverted.
I have explained this more than once.
Yes, Christianity was expanding quickly in all directions.
And the Pagans were converting to Christianity......put that is their religion.....not their culture.
And keep in mind there were no church doors or floors or buildings until after the Edict of Milan in 312 ad.
And as I have pointed out there are Pagan customs around the world today that have been Christianized.

As far as the Saturday Jewish Sabbath.....Gentile-Christians did not observe this holyday as a whole.....for the first forty years they were not allowed in the temple....than after 70 ad and the temple was destroyed the Sabbath changed for everyone and it left Judaism in disarray. The Jewish Christians were practically non-existent after the first century.....no early Jewish-Christian writings exist.

The Gentile-Christians had little knowledge of the Old Testament and the Mosaic Law and little concern....No Bibles.
The first bound books and collection of the 27 texts that formed the New Testament was the 50 Bibles of Emperor Constantine around 350 ad. Which did not include the Old Testament.

The first bibles to include the Old Testament was St. Jerome's Latin Bible after 400 ad. and they were not distributed to the public.

Now in relation to the Saturday Jewish Sabbath and the Lord's Day.....
There is no biblical requirement for Christians to observe the Saturday Jewish Sabbath or the Mosaic Law.
The Lord's Day on Sunday is a Christian tradition and not a biblical requirement.
The New Testament points out that Christian should assemble....but no day sited.

Today those Christians that want to observe the Saturday Jewish Sabbath can either do it in accordance with the Mosaic Law...which is difficult or just go to church on Saturday.
 
Last edited:

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,956
3,407
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, I understand, they are catholic facts who have based their reality on out of context cobblings; they are not the facts as presented in the scriptures.

The guardians of Israel, the religious elite did the same thing, they used scripture and killed the Prince of Life
And YOU’RE doing no less by your denial of what He fulfilled.

They’re not “Catholic” facts – but Biblical facts.
Jesus didn’t just fulfill the Sabbath and everything else that pointed to Him for Catholics.
ALL Christians benefit from this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Grailhunter

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,956
3,407
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no connect between the Sabbath and your eucharist. And rather than deal at length with your misplaced Catholic theology, I shall refer you to just 2 verses which ought to speak to you regarding truth, if you have ears to hear.
KJV John 6:63, 68
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go?
thou hast the words of eternal life.

And in case you ain't listening, here's one more...
KJV Matthew 4:4
  1. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
THANK YOU for displaying your utter ignorance at what Jesus was saying in John 6:63.

If YOU thing that HIS flesh profits nothing – then YOU don’t understand what He did on the cross.
HIS flesh profits us everything because it was precisely THAT which He sacrificed for your sins.

In this verse – Jesus us speaking to unbelievers like YOU – the ones who waked away from Him on that day because they couldn’t handle what He was telling them.
Peter and the Apostles didn't get it either - but they remained out of faith in Him.
 

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,588
4,871
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
THANK YOU for displaying your utter ignorance at what Jesus was saying in John 6:63.

If YOU thing that HIS flesh profits nothing – then YOU don’t understand what He did on the cross.
HIS flesh profits us everything because it was precisely THAT which He sacrificed for your sins.

In this verse – Jesus us speaking to unbelievers like YOU – the ones who waked away from Him on that day because they couldn’t handle what He was telling them.
Peter and the Apostles didn't get it either - but they remained out of faith in Him.
You are getting very personal, calling a fellow believer, @Brakelite as an UN-believer--remind me not to go to your Church, or allow a gentle Catholic member to represent your ekklesia.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Brakelite

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,956
3,407
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are getting very personal, calling a fellow believer, @Brakelite as an UN-believer--remind me not to go to your Church, or allow a gentle Catholic member to represent your ekklesia.
A person who denies Christ and what He has fulfilled IS an unbeliever.

You can’t claim to believe in Christ ONBE breath, then deny Him in the
next . . .
 

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,588
4,871
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
A person who denies Christ and what He has fulfilled IS an unbeliever.

You can’t claim to believe in Christ ONBE breath, then deny Him in the
next . . .
This is true--but it would seem that if ANY believer in Messiah do NOT believe as you do, including the Catholic Church, is a Goyim, an outsider, a heathen, correct?
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,956
3,407
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is true--but it would seem that if ANY believer in Messiah do NOT believe as you do, including the Catholic Church, is a Goyim, an outsider, a heathen, correct?
Absolutely not – and I’ve never espouse that belief.

ALL Baptized, Trinitarian Protestants are Christians along with Catholics.
Catholicism is just the fullest expression of Christianity. It’s not the ONLY one.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Philip James

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,588
4,871
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Absolutely not – and I’ve never espouse that belief.

ALL Baptized, Trinitarian Protestants are Christians along with Catholics.
Catholicism is just the fullest expression of Christianity. It’s not the ONLY one.
Catholicism is just the fullest expression of Christianity--Christianity is not the only one--is that what you are saying?
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,956
3,407
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Catholicism is just the fullest expression of Christianity--Christianity is not the only one--is that what you are saying?
You seem to ne having a tough time communicating.

READ my last post. I didn't make a distinction between Catholicism and Christianity.
Catholicism IS Christianity. The oldest form of Christianity at that.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Philip James

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,588
4,871
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
You seem to ne having a tough time communicating.

READ my last post. I didn't make a distinction between Catholicism and Christianity.
Catholicism IS Christianity. The oldest form of Christianity at that.
Not a tough time communicating, but to read the underlying nuances makes it tough.
I don't know nothing re the Catholic ekklesia--just go by the fruit in the expression of your words to others, that's all.
 

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
8,570
6,415
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Now in relation to the Saturday Jewish Sabbath and the Lord's Day.....
There is no biblical requirement for Christians to observe the Saturday Jewish Sabbath or the Mosaic Law.
"The Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath day". There is no "Jewish" Sabbath. The 7th day of the week is the Lord's day, not the Jews', the church's, or anyone else's, it's the Lord's. The first day of the week, well, you can do what you like with that. But attempting to make it holy, sacred, or trying to palm it off as special remembrance day holy into the Lord, no. The 4th Commandment states clearly, succinctly, without any unnecessary explanations or apologetics, that the 7th day is a day to cease labor, and allow your families and servants to do the same. God's Commandments are as much His as the Sabbath. The breaking of those Commandments by Eve, the 10th and the 7th and the 1st for starters, was the reason the Mosaic law was given...a means and vehicle by which to mend the broken relationship between God and man through the sanctuary services, the priesthood, the sacrifices and the feast days. The ten commandments were never a part of the solution, but rather the means by which to expose the problem... Sin. The ten commandments, a more detailed exposition of the laws of love... Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and body, and your neighbor as yourself... Existed in heaven before Lucifer fell from glory. So long as God has been around, so also has His law, the foundation of His government, albeit adapted in a couple of places to suit the times. But love has always been the principle upon which the law was based. Ceasing to love begets transgression.
THANK YOU for displaying your utter ignorance at what Jesus was saying in John 6:63.

If YOU thing that HIS flesh profits nothing – then YOU don’t understand what He did on the cross.
HIS flesh profits us everything because it was precisely THAT which He sacrificed for your sins.

In this verse – Jesus us speaking to unbelievers like YOU – the ones who waked away from Him on that day because they couldn’t handle what He was telling them.
Peter and the Apostles didn't get it either - but they remained out of faith in Him.
Because I believe the words of Jesus that the flesh profiteth nothing, yes, His words not mine, you accuse me of being as a heathen and an unbeliever?
It is the words that He speaks that have power to give life... It is His word that we need to chew on and digest, and assimilate into our lives. It is the promises of God that we must believe in order to be saved and to grow. What do you think Jesus was talking about here...?
KJV Matthew 15:21-28
21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Do you understand the difference between the flesh and the spirit in the context of the above verses? Was the Canaanite woman healed by eating physical crumbs that Jesus fed her? Was she healed by eating Him? Or was she healed and delivered by believing in Who He is, and had the power to speak life into darkness?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Johann