What is the one true Church?

[Brakelite]

And the Pagans were converting to Christianity......put that is their religion.....not their culture.

You believe the power of the gospel falls short in delivering people from the sinful aspects of culture like idolatry and temple prostitution? And you are correct, there are pagan relics that were "baptized" and repurposed... But that practise resulted in apostasy and the fall of the church from grace. Such syncretism was manifest more in Rome and Alexandria than anywhere else, and although such it's predated Christianity, in some cases by many centuries, they didn't become a part of church doctrine and teaching tradition until after the apostles had died. Paul even warned that there would be such a falling away after his death...KJV Acts 20:28-30
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
John confirmed this by stating that the spirit of Antichrist (replacing Christ with counterfeit methods of salvation) was already present in his day, but the things took a while to develop into full blown church doctrine and teaching. Sunday sacredness is of course a prime example, taking several centuries to develop, given impetus by Constantine's Sunday law, late affirmed by the church of Rome. It took the perversion of the Passover to Easter, and the development of Christmas day to be the catalyst for entrenching Sunday into the minds of the church, but this took convincing and persecution to cement it into church practice generally. Several centuries of persecution. And the practice of downplaying and ridiculing the Sabbath, and of exalting Sunday way above it's proper station, continues to this day.

 

[Grailhunter]

There is no doubt that the Catholic Church is a very old Church and it is definitely the largest religion of any and larger than all the Protestant denominations combined. But exactly when it was established is a matter of debate.​

On the other hand there is no debate among scholars as to when the Coptic Church was established which was 40 AD. Making it the oldest Christian Church.

Characteristics of the Coptic Orthodox Church:

• It appears that the Coptic Church was the only Church to be prophesied in the Holy Bible, back in the Old Testament.....Isaiah 19:19, On that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the center of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the Lord at its border. It will be a sign and a witness to the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt, when they cry to the Lord because of oppressors, he will send them a savior, and will defend and deliver them. ... That Alter was not meant to be for the unbelievers as it was meant to be for God, and it was not for the Jews as it was outside Jerusalem. Therefore, Coptic Christians believe it was meant for the Coptic Orthodox Church.
• Egypt is the only country that Jesus visited while He was on earth besides where he was born. Prophet Isaiah spoke of this in Isaiah 19:1 “the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt.” Hosea 11:1, told of His return from Egypt where the prophecy said: “out of Egypt I called my son,” referring to Jesus leaving Egypt.
• At the Council of Nicaea, one of the Church’s heroes, Saint Athanasios, established the Orthodox Creed, accepted by all Christians worldwide.
• The Coptic Orthodox Church was the first church to establish a theology school by Apostle Mark.
• The Coptic Orthodox Church was the first church to establish monasticism by Saint Anthony and the monastery living by Saint Pachomius.
• The Pope of the Coptic Orthodox Church also known as the Bishop of Alexandria, is the leader of the Coptic Orthodox Church, with ancient Christian roots in Egypt. The current holder of this position is Pope Tawadros II, who was selected as the 118th Pope on November 18, 2012.

 

[Grailhunter]

"The Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath day". There is no "Jewish" Sabbath. WRONG! The 7th day of the week is the Lord's day, not the Jews', Wrong! the church's, or anyone else's, it's the Lord's. The first day of the week, well, you can do what you like with that. But attempting to make it holy, sacred, or trying to palm it off as special remembrance day holy into the Lord, no. WRONG!

The 4th Commandment states clearly, succinctly, without any unnecessary explanations or apologetics, that the 7th day is a day to cease labor, and allow your families and servants to do the same. God's Commandments are as much His as the Sabbath. The breaking of those Commandments by Eve, the 10th and the 7th and the 1st for starters, was the reason the Mosaic law was given...a means and vehicle by which to mend the broken relationship between God and man through the sanctuary services, the priesthood, the sacrifices and the feast days. The ten commandments were never a part of the solution, but rather the means by which to expose the problem... Sin. The ten commandments, a more detailed exposition of the laws of love... Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and body, and your neighbor as yourself... Existed in heaven before Lucifer fell from glory. So long as God has been around, so also has His law, the foundation of His government, albeit adapted in a couple of places to suit the times. But love has always been the principle upon which the law was based. Ceasing to love begets transgression.

The problem with the rest of this is that the Mosaic Law only applies to Jews. Non of the 613 Mosaic Laws apply to Christians. For example we do not execute a betrothed or married woman if she is raped. This was required in the Mosaic Law. We do not sell our daughters as sex slaves....concubinage.

Beyond that, no pun intended, but about ten ways to Sunday, Paul explained that Christians do not observe the Law, that Christians are not under the Law. He cautioned against doing the works of the Law. And in some circumstances it can separate you from Christianity. Paul did not have much good to say about the Mosaic Law. And no one in the New Testament said that Christians should observe the Saturday Sabbath.

The 1st Christian council in Jerusalem was to address the Gentile-Christians concerns and only four points were sited.
It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell. Acts 28-29

Paul considered the Mosaic Law....Ten Commandments and all a ministry of death and a curse that Christ redeemed us from.

2nd Corinthians 3:7-8 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

Galatians 3:12 “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us.....”

Galatians 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Hebrews 8:13 “In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.”

1st Corinthians 9:20 “And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, through not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law;”

Romans 4:15 “for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation.”

Romans 6:14 “For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.”

Romans 6:15 “What then? Are we to sin because we are not under the Law but under grace?”

Romans 8:2 “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath me free from the law of sin and death.”

Romans 7:6 “But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.”

Romans 7:8 “But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.”

2nd Corinthians 3:3 “being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of human hearts.”

This follows Paul’s statement saying You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you….
Galatians 4:21 “Tell me, you who want to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?”

Galatians 3:10 “For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

Galatians 3:24-25 “So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,”

Galatians 5:18 “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.”

Galatians 2:16 “Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.”

Galatians 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Romans 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

 

[Grailhunter]

You believe the power of the gospel falls short in delivering people from the sinful aspects of culture like idolatry and temple prostitution?

I do not believe that and I did not say that and that is not what happened. Idolatry and temple prostitution was part of the Pagan religions and when they converted they gave that up. It was some of their regional customs and seasonal holidays that they retained.

And you are correct, there are pagan relics that were "baptized" and repurposed... But that practise resulted in apostasy and the fall of the church from grace. Such syncretism was manifest more in Rome and Alexandria than anywhere else, and although such it's predated Christianity, in some cases by many centuries, they didn't become a part of church doctrine and teaching tradition until after the apostles had died. Paul even warned that there would be such a falling away after his death...KJV Acts 20:28-30

You will have to explain this better.

Sunday sacredness is of course a prime example, taking several centuries to develop, given impetus by Constantine's Sunday law, late affirmed by the church of Rome. It took the perversion of the Passover to Easter, and the development of Christmas day to be the catalyst for entrenching Sunday into the minds of the church, but this took convincing and persecution to cement it into church practice generally. Several centuries of persecution. And the practice of downplaying and ridiculing the Sabbath, and of exalting Sunday way above it's proper station, continues to this day.

You need to do more study on the history of Christianity.
1. The tradition of observing the Lord's Day started shortly after Christ's resurrection. Constantine did not establish Sunday as the Lord's Day, that had been going on for centuries. What he did do was make it official under the unity of the Ecumenical Councils of which Easter was also the decision of the Ecumenical councils

2. After the destruction of the Temple and the 1st century, Gentiles-Christians did not observe the Jewish Saturday Sabbath. Early Christian writings show no indication of observing the Saturday Sabbath.

 

[Brakelite]

The problem with the rest of this is that the Mosaic Law only applies to Jews. Non of the 613 Mosaic Laws apply to Christians. For example we do not execute a betrothed or married woman if she is raped. This was required in the Mosaic Law. We do not sell our daughters as sex slaves....concubinage.

Beyond that, no pun intended, but about ten ways to Sunday, Paul explained that Christians do not observe the Law, that Christians are not under the Law. He cautioned against doing the works of the Law. And in some circumstances it can separate you from Christianity. Paul did not have much good to say about the Mosaic Law. And no one in the New Testament said that Christians should observe the Saturday Sabbath.

The 1st Christian council in Jerusalem was to address the Gentile-Christians concerns and only four points were sited.
It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell. Acts 28-29

Paul considered the Mosaic Law....Ten Commandments and all a ministry of death and a curse that Christ redeemed us from.

2nd Corinthians 3:7-8 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

Galatians 3:12 “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us.....”

Galatians 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Hebrews 8:13 “In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.”

1st Corinthians 9:20 “And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, through not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law;”

Romans 4:15 “for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation.”

Romans 6:14 “For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.”

Romans 6:15 “What then? Are we to sin because we are not under the Law but under grace?”

Romans 8:2 “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath me free from the law of sin and death.”

Romans 7:6 “But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.”

Romans 7:8 “But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.”

2nd Corinthians 3:3 “being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of human hearts.”

This follows Paul’s statement saying You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you….
Galatians 4:21 “Tell me, you who want to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?”

Galatians 3:10 “For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

Galatians 3:24-25 “So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,”

Galatians 5:18 “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.”

Galatians 2:16 “Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.”

Galatians 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Romans 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

The scriptures tell us that in transgressing one point of law, we transgress all, thus all are guilty before a holy God: sinners, lost, condemned, destined for destruction.
The same scriptures tell us however, praise God, that Christ's blood and self sacrifice has redeemed us from the law and His resurrection has saved us from certain (second) death.
Also, we are told that in place of death, we are given eternal life, and that eternal life comes to us as we repent or turn away from those sins that brought us low, we are born again of the Spirit of God and become new creatures in Christ, counseled to walk according to faith, and not by sight, to believe God's promises, and receive, by grace, power to become children of God. That is the gospel, and a glorious wonderful thing it is. Nothing we have done has deserved such mercy, nothing we can do can improve, increase, or strengthen God's love and commitment to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25).
So then.
KJV Romans 6:1
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid.
What then?
KJV Romans 6:18
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Do servants obey their Master?
KJV Romans 6:22
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

KJV Romans 8:2-7
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So. Question. It is clear the carnal unregenerate unsaved sinful mind cannot obey the law of God. I'm not talking about the 613 statutes and civil laws of Moses that pertained to Israel only, just the Ten commandments . Could the carnal mind obey them? No. Impossible. But your scriptures you quoted above clearly state that the saved Christian is released, delivered, saved from that dreadful situation by being granted mercy, and given a mind born of the Spirit. Paul says as much here...
KJV Romans 8:9-10
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

So. Taking all the above into account, knowing that disobedience to God condemned each and every one of us, now that we are new creatures in Christ and partakers of the divine nature, servants to God and servants to righteousness, according to Romans 6 and 8, why would not such obedience in our new life include obedience to the very ten laws that in our past life were unable and unwilling to obey?

 

[Grailhunter]

The scriptures tell us that in transgressing one point of law, we transgress all, thus all are guilty before a holy God: sinners, lost, condemned, destined for destruction.

This appears to be the rule of the Mosaic Law, but the Mosaic Law does apply to Christians.....I have already gave you the scriptures that prove we are not under the Law.

I don't know exactly where you are coming from.....do you want to be Jewish? Do you want to dabble with the Mosaic Laws? Do you want to mix Judaism with Christianity? Christ warned about doing that. That is a dangerous game. Odds are good you do not know much about the Mosaic Law and its like playing with fire.

 

[Grailhunter]

why would not such obedience in our new life include obedience to the very ten laws that in our past life were unable and unwilling to obey?

Because the Mosaic Laws do not apply to Christians.
Again most do not understand the Mosaic Laws.
The ten laws you and many point to are actually short summary of Laws that are explained fully in the body of the Mosaic Laws. To focus on these and ignore the other 603 laws is one of the worst sins in the Old Testament. No one has the authority to separate them. As I said playing with fire.

And the actual laws that God called the Ten Commandments and told Moses to write on the tablets are in Exodus 34:10-28

 

[Brakelite]

You will have to explain this better.

As you said, holy days such as Easter... Christmas day formerly the Mithra day of the sun, sol Invictus. Sunday, an extension of the same. But it was the establishment of Sunday in particular that brought about apostasy because it replaced, by force of law and persecution, the true Sabbath.

You need to do more study on the history of Christianity.

I think it is to you such admonishment be addressed. The Sabbath was observed by the Celtic churches of Ireland and Scotland for at least 10 centuries after Christ. The churches of Abyssinia , Ethiopia, and those of Assyria also observed the Sabbath. It came very natural for them to do so, because for centuries before Christ culture far removed from Jewish influence nevertheless in their own sacred writings and traditions followed a7 day week with the seventh that of rest.
I suggest you begin with studying the history of the church of Scotland, it's roots and beliefs, and the reign of Malcolm and Margaret in the 11th century, and their actions and intentions relating to their ecclesiastical counsels to destroy the Celtic church there.

 

[Brakelite]

This appears to be the rule of the Mosaic Law, but the Mosaic Law does apply to Christians.....I have already gave you the scriptures that prove we are not under the Law.

I don't know exactly where you are coming from.....do you want to be Jewish? Do you want to dabble with the Mosaic Laws? Do you want to mix Judaism with Christianity? Christ warned about doing that. That is a dangerous game. Odds are good you do not know much about the Mosaic Law and its like playing with fire.

In other words, it seems you are agreeing with the rest of the anti Sabbath movement, in order to disentangle themselves from the seemingly insurmountable burden of the Sabbath, Christians need to invent the premise that they
are no longer bound to obey any of God's commandments, not even the first 3 , let alone the last 6.
And you haven't refuted the historical fact that the Christian church observed the Sabbath in places like Scotland and Ireland for 1000 years after Christ, and the only reason any Sabbath keeping was halted came as a result of determined tyranny from Rome and/or her emissaries and agents. The removal of records from that church and the destruction of the writings of it's leaders has further given the appearance that Sabbath keeping didn't exist.

There is no biblical mandate for observing Sunday. Despite arguments in it's defense, Sunday sacredness comes from pagan tradition adopted by catholicism and passed on to Protestantism as a holy relic. No personal attack upon you here, it's simple history. Even Catholic theologians and historians themselves admit as much, and in the council of Trent used that to prove the Protestants, despite their claims to the contrary, followed tradition as opposed to the Bible only.
The Protestant and the Catholic worlds both teach that the Holy Scriptures are of God. There is a difference, however, for the Protestants admit the Bible and the Bible only, while the Papacy places the church traditions on an equality with the Scriptures. The Council of Trent, 1545, whose decisions are supreme authority on doctrine in the Roman Catholic Church, speaks as follows on written and unwritten tradition: The sacred and holy, oecumenical and general Synod of Trent,...following the examples of the orthodox fathers, receives and venerates with equal affection of piety, and reverence, all the books both of the Old and of the New Testament, — seeing that one God is the author of both, and also the said traditions, as well those appertaining to faith as to morals, as having been dictated, either by Christ’s own word of mouth, or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved by a continuous succession in the Catholic Church.
Buckley, Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, pp. 17, 18.

That this principle still prevails in the Roman Catholic Church is shown by the words of the celebrated Cardinal Gibbons of Baltimore, who was long the leading exponent of his church in the United States. Thus he writes: A rule of faith, or a competent guide to heaven, must be able to instruct in all the truths necessary for salvation. Now the Scriptures alone do not contain all the truths which a Christian is bound to believe, nor do they explicitly enjoin all the duties which he is obliged to practice. Not to mention other examples, is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday, and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.9
Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers, pp. 111, 112, 63d ed.; p. 86, 76th ed.

I'm not playing games here. I'm not attempting to keep alive the OT sanctuary feast day cycle and the civil, and communal laws that applied to the nation. However, I absolutely will uphold God commandments as He wrote them on stone, nor do I lay claim as being the one who has separated those laws from those given to Moses at a later time. God Himself required that Moses keep the 2 separate. One placed inside the ark of the covenant/testimony, a type of God's throne in heaven, the other on a scroll, placed to the side of the ark. If God has wanted to demonstrate the impermanence of both, maybe He could have refrained from writing a second sample and left the first in pieces?

 

[Grailhunter]

As you said, holy days such as Easter... Christmas day formerly the Mithra day of the sun, sol Invictus. Sunday, an extension of the same. But it was the establishment of Sunday in particular that brought about apostasy because it replaced, by force of law and persecution, the true Sabbath.

You and I have just had the conversation that some Pagan aspects came into Christianity when Christ and Paul opened up Christianity to the Pagan....this was part of the plan....

Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us, ‘I have placed You as a light for the Gentiles, That You may bring salvation to the end of the earth.’” When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region. Act 13:46-49

Christ knew this....Paul knew this....and this was done long before Emperor Constantine. Long before Constantine's vision before the battle at the Milvian Bridge Christianity was adopting the cultures of various Pagan regions, one of the most significant being wedding ceremonies....

And Yes at the time of Emperor Constantine he was the ruler over an empire that was both Christian and Pagan.....
Just like today with freedom of religion, the US has several religions within its borders.
So he setup the holidays to occur on the same days so as not to interrupt the economics or commerce all the time.

As far as Mithra day of the sun.....Sunday.....the Sun, Greek Helios and the Roman god Solis.......Tuesday, Mars the god Aries......Wednesday Mercury, the god Odin, Thursday, Jupiter, the god Thor.....Friday, Venus the goddess Frigg....Saturday, Saturn, the god Cronos.

The days of the week and months are mostly named after Greco-Roman gods, another example of these cultures merging. This is where we are at today.....some people find fault with that, but that is Christianity as Christ planned. If not, the Romans, the Pagans, could have kept slaughtering the Christians until they gone.

Then on the topic of the true Sabbath....the true Uposatha, Buddhism, neither of these holy-days are Christian. But the Jewish Saturday Sabbath is still Jewish and is the true Sabbath....Christianity did not change that. The New Testament never regarded the Jewish Saturday Sabbath as a Christian holy-day. The Christian holy-day is the Lord's Day, the day of the resurrection.

About the only way to get away from all this is to convert to Judaism.

 

[Grailhunter]

I think it is to you such admonishment be addressed. The Sabbath was observed by the Celtic churches of Ireland and Scotland for at least 10 centuries after Christ. The churches of Abyssinia , Ethiopia, and those of Assyria also observed the Sabbath. It came very natural for them to do so, because for centuries before Christ culture far removed from Jewish influence nevertheless in their own sacred writings and traditions followed a7 day week with the seventh that of rest.
I suggest you begin with studying the history of the church of Scotland, it's roots and beliefs, and the reign of Malcolm and Margaret in the 11th century, and their actions and intentions relating to their ecclesiastical counsels to destroy the Celtic church there.

There was nothing wrong with them observing the Sabbath and nothing wrong with them observing it today....it is just not a New Testament requirement.

n other words, it seems you are agreeing with the rest of the anti Sabbath movement, in order to disentangle themselves from the seemingly insurmountable burden of the Sabbath, Christians need to invent the premise that they
are no longer bound to obey any of God's commandments, not even the first 3 , let alone the last 6.

I have already given you the scriptures that prove that Christians are not under the Law....and I do not know of a anti-Sabbath movement...it is just not a Christian religion.

And you haven't refuted the historical fact that the Christian church observed the Sabbath in places like Scotland and Ireland for 1000 years after Christ, and the only reason any Sabbath keeping was halted came as a result of determined tyranny from Rome and/or her emissaries and agents. The removal of records from that church and the destruction of the writings of it's leaders has further given the appearance that Sabbath keeping didn't exist.

Why would I refute that some Christians observed the Sabbath. I am saying that there is no biblical premise for this....I am saying that the Christian leaders after the biblical era did not require this.....and the Catholics did not require observance of the Sabbath....Martin Luther did not suggest observing the Sabbath....and most of the Protestant denominations do not observe the Sabbath....there are always exceptions having various reasons....but it is not biblical.

There is no biblical mandate for observing Sunday. Despite arguments in it's defense, Sunday sacredness comes from pagan tradition adopted by catholicism and passed on to Protestantism as a holy relic. No personal attack upon you here, it's simple history. Even Catholic theologians and historians themselves admit as much, and in the council of Trent used that to prove the Protestants, despite their claims to the contrary, followed tradition as opposed to the Bible only.

I don't take it as a personal attack.....I like you. But you are wrong....the Lord's Day did not come from Pagan tradition....and the Catholics or historians do not say it is Pagan. And this is one of those weird things between the Catholics and Protestants....The efforts of Emperor Constantine and the Ecumenical Councils were to organize and standardize Christianity....one faith....the Protestants consider this anti-God. 30,000 denominations later, this is obvious. But was this what Christ intended? Does the scripture say....Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit so as to form 30,000 beliefs.....

I'm not playing games here. I'm not attempting to keep alive the OT sanctuary feast day cycle and the civil, and communal laws that applied to the nation. However, I absolutely will uphold God commandments as He wrote them on stone, nor do I lay claim as being the one who has separated those laws from those given to Moses at a later time. God Himself required that Moses keep the 2 separate. One placed inside the ark of the covenant/testimony, a type of God's throne in heaven, the other on a scroll, placed to the side of the ark. If God has wanted to demonstrate the impermanence of both, maybe He could have refrained from writing a second sample and left the first in pieces?

I have already proven that this is not a Christian belief. Those commandments that were....written on stone....were a ministry of death and a curse that Christ redeemed us from.....For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. Hebrews 8:7 and....“In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.” Hebrews 8:13

There is no segregation in the Mosaic Law and coming up with a belief system that you are going to pick and choose which ones you are going observe and which ones you are going to ignore is regarded as one of the worst sins in the Old Testament. And keep in mind while you are dabbling with Judaism and the Old Testament....the Israelites/Jews did not believe in Heaven as a reward, they did not believe in Hell or the devil and still do not believe in Hell or the devil today.

 

[Taken]

Sola Scripture- like any phrase can mean different things to different individuals.

To me…Sola Scripture - simply means Scripture Alone is a means;
* Established BY God Himself OF Gods Word, Order, Way to be Written, Published, Distributed throughout this Whole World.
* For the Purpose(S) OF ALL men, OF ALL Time, IN this World;
* 1) TO; Have Access TO The Knowledge ABOUT the Lord God Almighty.
* 2) TO; Have Access TO The Knowledge ABOUT the Dangers of Evil and Wickedness OF this World.
* 3) TO; Have Access TO The Knowledge OF the Consequences (Favorable OR Detrimental) FOR Whatever men Freely Choose TO; Believe, Trust, Do.
* 4) TO; Have Access To Gods Knowledge FOR Verification / Validation FOR whatever a man hears being Taught, Preached under the Auspice of Being the Word, Way, Order of the Lord God Almighty.
* 5) TO; reject, deny, correct A false Teaching, Preaching.

In Brief…Scripture Alone IS sufficiently Inclusive To Learn ABOUT Every Thing God Himself Requires FOR ANY man TO Freely Choose TO Have AN Eternal Relationship WITH the Lord God Almighty.

Over 400 times WRITE and WRITTEN is mentioned IN Written Scripture.
Written IN Stone…………………..and Breakable.
Written IN ink ON Paper………..and Burnable.
Written IN the Heart of man….and Eternal.

So yes…in as much as God Himself Has Placed Supreme emphasis ON;
Writing A mans Name IN the Lambs Book OF Life.
And;
Writing HIS Word IN THE Heart of a man, I also place high emphasis ON the Written Word OF God.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Patrick1966]

In Brief…Scripture Alone IS sufficiently Inclusive To Learn ABOUT Every Thing God Himself Requires FOR ANY man TO Freely Choose TO Have AN Eternal Relationship WITH the Lord God Almighty.

Amen.

In not adhering to sola scriptura, one might as well be saying that Jesus and the apostles FAILED to teach us everything that we need to know in order to be a complete Christian.

 

[Taken]

Amen.

In not adhering to sola scriptura, one might as well be saying that Jesus and the apostles FAILED to teach us everything that we need to know in order to be a complete Christian.

Gods Word IS NOT complicated.
Gods Written Word IS NOT complicated.
Straight out….Simplicity;
Do this…
Do Not Do that…
IF you Do this….THEN expect this Result.
IF you Do that…THEN expect that Result.

*With God-Shall Be Saved unto God.
*Without God- Not Be Saved unto God.
*With Jesus-Shall Be Save unto God.
*Without Jesus-Shall Not Be Saved unto God.
^^ Those men HOPE to maintain by the mans own power to Remain WITH.
^^ A man CAN fall away.
^^ A man CAN with his last bodily breath Believe and Become WITH.

*With AND IN Christ-IS Saved unto Christ.
^^ That man Can Never fall away.
^^ That man IS KEPT forever BY the Power of God IN that man.
^^ That man IS Christs True Church.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Illuminator]

In other words, it seems you are agreeing with the rest of the anti Sabbath movement, in order to disentangle themselves from the seemingly insurmountable burden of the Sabbath, Christians need to invent the premise that they
are no longer bound to obey any of God's commandments, not even the first 3 , let alone the last 6.

Must you be so insulting?

And you haven't refuted the historical fact that the Christian church observed the Sabbath in places like Scotland and Ireland for 1000 years after Christ,

So what. That doesn't prove places like Scotland and Ireland for 1000 years after Christ never went to church on Sunday.

and the only reason any Sabbath keeping was halted came as a result of determined tyranny from Rome and/or her emissaries and agents. The removal of records from that church and the destruction of the writings of it's leaders has further given the appearance that Sabbath keeping didn't exist.

So what. I prefer to go to Mass on Saturday fulfilling my Sunday obligation; I'm not violating any laws. If I can't make it for Saturday or Sunday, I can go to Mass any day of the week. If I miss Mass for a good reason, there is no sin committed. " tyranny from Rome" is stupid illogical paranoia. "The removal of records from that church and the destruction of the writings of it's leaders" so how do you know they existed if they have been destroyed? Strange logic indeed.

There is no biblical mandate for observing Sunday. Despite arguments in it's defense, Sunday sacredness comes from pagan tradition adopted by catholicism and passed on to Protestantism as a holy relic.

The Resurrection is the whole point of Sunday worship, not paganism. The pagan influence fallacy has been refuted several times on this forum. But to you, a Saturday Sabbath is more important than the Resurrection. Maybe you should correct Jesus for rising a day late, since the Saturday Sabbath is more important than the Resurrection.

No personal attack upon you here, it's simple history. Even Catholic theologians and historians themselves admit as much, and in the council of Trent used that to prove the Protestants, despite their claims to the contrary, followed tradition as opposed to the Bible only.
The Protestant and the Catholic worlds both teach that the Holy Scriptures are of God. There is a difference, however, for the Protestants admit the Bible and the Bible only, while the Papacy places the church traditions on an equality with the Scriptures.

So did the Jews. So did the Apostles. You have no case against Tradition, so you are forced to re-define it so it fits a false narrative.

The Council of Trent, 1545, whose decisions are supreme authority on doctrine in the Roman Catholic Church, speaks as follows on written and unwritten tradition: The sacred and holy, oecumenical and general Synod of Trent,...following the examples of the orthodox fathers, receives and venerates with equal affection of piety, and reverence, all the books both of the Old and of the New Testament, — seeing that one God is the author of both, and also the said traditions, as well those appertaining to faith as to morals, as having been dictated, either by Christ’s own word of mouth, or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved by a continuous succession in the Catholic Church.
Buckley, Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, pp. 17, 18.

Your attack on Sacred Tradition is illogical (again). The authority of Scripture is also a Sacred Tradition. In fact, if one makes an honest inquiry about it, it will be discovered that the the canon of Scripture is also a Tradition as the Bible doesn't give a list of books that belong in it. You demonize what you know nothing about.
Jesus was with the Apostles for 3 years; do you really think all He said was NT quotes? His spoken WORD is life, as is the written word. And all His teachings and infallible preaching of ALL the Apostles have been preserved. They are not secrets.

That this principle still prevails in the Roman Catholic Church is shown by the words of the celebrated Cardinal Gibbons of Baltimore, who was long the leading exponent of his church in the United States. Thus he writes: A rule of faith, or a competent guide to heaven, must be able to instruct in all the truths necessary for salvation. Now the Scriptures alone do not contain all the truths which a Christian is bound to believe, nor do they explicitly enjoin all the duties which he is obliged to practice. Not to mention other examples, is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday, and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.9
Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers, pp. 111, 112, 63d ed.; p. 86, 76th ed.

James Cardinal Gibbons:

“If I were asked what is the underlying principle of the Gospel, what is the essential characteristic of the religion of Jesus Christ, I would say: it is love. Group together the ten Commandments, the evangelical precepts, and the exhortations of the Apostles. Group together all the admonitions of the Old and the New Testament. Analyze them all, and they are all summarized in one short word, and that word is Love.” ...​

...The Pagan or Heathen worshiped his gods. He feared them, and prostrated himself before them. He offered sacrifice to them in order to propitiate them. But the thought never occurred to him of loving them. He was too far removed from them to entertain any sentiment of affection for them; for love presupposes some equality between the lover and the person beloved."​

read more here
You'll never find that quote on any SDA source, it's too incriminating.

I'm not playing games here.

Yes, you are.

I'm not attempting to keep alive the OT sanctuary feast day cycle and the civil, and communal laws that applied to the nation. However, I absolutely will uphold God commandments as He wrote them on stone, nor do I lay claim as being the one who has separated those laws from those given to Moses at a later time.

You miss the whole single point of the Commandments and the Gospel with your fear based anti-Catholic lies.

God Himself required that Moses keep the 2 separate. One placed inside the ark of the covenant/testimony, a type of God's throne in heaven, the other on a scroll, placed to the side of the ark. If God has wanted to demonstrate the impermanence of both, maybe He could have refrained from writing a second sample and left the first in pieces?

Do you circumcise your 8 day old infants according to the law, (no, you don't) or do you just dismiss that as civil and communal law?
All your SDA doctrines flow from E.G. White's occult channeling, and here you are again, lying about the pagan influence fallacy with your standard false histories, invented in the 18th century. Here's a clue for the readers: the occult is the worst form of paganism.

Pagan Influence Fallacy​

Opponents of the Church often attempt to discredit Catholicism by attempting to show similarities between it and the beliefs or practices of ancient paganism. This fallacy is frequently committed by Fundamentalists against Catholics; by Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and others against both Protestants and Catholics; and by atheists and skeptics against both Christians and Jews.

The nineteenth century witnessed a flowering of this “pagan influence fallacy.” Publications such as The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop (the classic English text charging the Catholic Church with paganism) paved the way for generations of antagonism toward the Church. During this time, entire new sects were created (Seventh-day Adventists, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses)—all considering traditional Catholicism and Protestantism as polluted by paganism. This era also saw atheistic “freethinkers” such as Robert Ingersoll writing books attacking Christianity and Judaism as pagan.

The pagan influence fallacy has not gone away in the twentieth century, but newer archaeology and more mature scholarship have diminished its influence. Yet there are still many committing it. In Protestant circles, numerous works have continued to popularize the claims of Alexander Hislop, most notably the comic books of Jack Chick and the book Babylon Mystery Religion by the young Ralph Woodrow (later Woodrow realized its flaws and wrote The Babylon Connection? repudiating it and refuting Hislop). Other Christian and quasi-Christian sects have continued to charge mainstream Christianity with paganism, and many atheists have continued to repeat—unquestioned—the charges of paganism leveled by their forebears.
read more here
Borrowing arguments from atheists?

 

[Brakelite]

have already proven that this is not a Christian belief. Those commandments that were....written on stone....were a ministry of death and a curse that Christ redeemed us from.....For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. Hebrews 8:7 and....“In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.” Hebrews 8:13

There is no segregation in the Mosaic Law and coming up with a belief system that you are going to pick and choose which ones you are going observe and which ones you are going to ignore is regarded as one of the worst sins in the Old Testament.

One of, if not the most beautiful prayer in scripture...
KJV Daniel 9:4-14
4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:
6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.
7 O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.
8 O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.
9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.
11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.
13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.
14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

So Daniel here makes a separation between the law of God which Israel disobeyed, and the law of Moses which set the curses under which they now suffered and sought deliverance. I could cite other examples where the 2 laws were defined in different settings and having different purposes.

All your SDA doctrines flow from E.G. White's occult channeling, and here you are again, lying

Now who is insulting?

 

[Illuminator]

One of, if not the most beautiful prayer in scripture...
KJV Daniel 9:4-14
4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:
6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.
7 O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.
8 O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.
9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.
11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.
13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.
14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

So Daniel here makes a separation between the law of God which Israel disobeyed, and the law of Moses which set the curses under which they now suffered and sought deliverance. I could cite other examples where the 2 laws were defined in different settings and having different purposes.


Now who is insulting?

Daniel 9:4 affirms Cardinal Gibbons one word summary of the Commandments and the Gospel.
I like Daniel too:

Dan. 2:44 But in the days of those kingdoms the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people, and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms, and itself shall stand for ever.

Daniel prophesies an earthly kingdom that will never be destroyed. Either this is a false prophecy, or the earthly kingdom requires succession. You keep saying the Church is, was, or will be destroyed by evil. Paul never said such a thing.

Matthew 16:18 “ And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. ”

Your version:
Matthew 16:18 “ And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this little pebble I will build my temporary church; and the gates of hell shall prevail against it. ”

You insult Daniel and Jesus by demonizing the Church Daniel prophesied and the Church Jesus founded. He doesn't build junk in spite of the fact that every church is full of sinners and hypocrites. Your lens is so tainted all you can see is sin and evil in every church except yours, that bases it's teachings on the occult false prophecies of your "pope" Ellen G. White.

There are plenty of holy men and women in every century, but you never mock any of them. No, you take the worst of our leaders from centuries ago, as if it was relevant in todays' world and uphold them as the standard for all leaders. You are deceptive as well as insulting.

Saints A to Z: A - Saints & Angels - Catholic Online

Browse all catholic saints starting with the letter A

www.catholic.org

Todays average Catholic doesn't care about the Council of Trent. Vatican II totally revamped Trent and brought the need for the so called reformation to an end, if one bothers to read its documents. You like to pit Protestants and Catholics against each other, and then sit back and watch the show.

I remind readers that Brokelite's cult thinks Catholicism is the whore, and Protestants are the daughters of the whore. Seeing whores everywhere is a mental illness.

 

[Grailhunter]

@Brakelite
So Daniel here makes a separation between the law of God which Israel disobeyed, and the law of Moses which set the curses under which they now suffered and sought deliverance. I could cite other examples where the 2 laws were defined in different settings and having different purposes.

I have heard some pretty funny debates on this....but none of them hold water.
Some saw the reference to Law of Moses as coming from Moses only.
Some saw the Law of God as 613 Laws.
Some used it as a way to divide what they believed were the Ten Commandments from the other 603 laws.

Pretty accurate to call them the Mosaic Laws......more accurate in context to call them the Laws of the Covenant.
And if you are a Jew you should really dive in to that.

If you are Christian you might be interested in the law of the Spirit of life in Yeshua or the law of Christ or law of liberty or the Commandments of Christ?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Because I believe the words of Jesus that the flesh profiteth nothing, yes, His words not mine, you accuse me of being as a heathen and an unbeliever?
It is the words that He speaks that have power to give life... It is His word that we need to chew on and digest, and assimilate into our lives. It is the promises of God that we must believe in order to be saved and to grow. What do you think Jesus was talking about here...?
KJV Matthew 15:21-28
21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Do you understand the difference between the flesh and the spirit in the context of the above verses? Was the Canaanite woman healed by eating physical crumbs that Jesus fed her? Was she healed by eating Him? Or was she healed and delivered by believing in Who He is, and had the power to speak life into darkness?

“Belief” in Christ is NOT just a “feeling”. It is surrender and obedience.
The woman was no t healed by a “feeling” she had about Jesus.

In the Bread of Life discourse in John 6, Jesus drives home the point that HE is the fulfillment of the manna that came down from Heaven. HE is the Paschal Lamb. The Paschal Lamb was to be EATEN.
He says:
John 6:53-55
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

The normal Greek word for the way a human eats is “Phagon”. HOWEVER, in this passage, the word “Trogon" is used, which is the word for the was an animal rips apart and gnaws his food.

When the crowd waled away from Him – did Jesus explain to them that He was only speaking “symbolically”?
NO – He simply turned to the Twelve and asked them, “Do you ALSO want to leave?”
He meant what He said.

THIS is why the Romans accused the Early Christians of being “cannibals” – because of their belief in the Eucharist and the Real Presence (The Octavius of Minucius Felix, 2nd century).

THIS is why lifelong student of the Apostle John, Ignatius of Antioch wrote the following shortly before his death at the beginning of the 2nd century:

Ignatius of Antioch
“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 107]).

 

[Illuminator]

Because I believe the words of Jesus that the flesh profiteth nothing, yes, His words not mine, you accuse me of being as a heathen and an unbeliever?

You have strong faith, it's just misguided.
John 6:61-63 – Jesus acknowledges their disgust. Jesus’ use of the phrase “the spirit gives life” means the disciples need supernatural faith, not logic, to understand His words.

John 3:6 – Jesus often used the comparison of “spirit versus flesh” to teach about the necessity of possessing supernatural faith versus a natural understanding. In Mark 14:38 Jesus also uses the “spirit/flesh” comparison. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We must go beyond the natural to understand the supernatural. In 1 Cor. 2:14,3:3; Rom 8:5; and Gal. 5:17, Paul also uses the “spirit/flesh” comparison to teach that unspiritual people are not receiving the gift of faith. They are still “in the flesh.”

It is the words that He speaks that have power to give life... It is His word that we need to chew on and digest, and assimilate into our lives. It is the promises of God that we must believe in order to be saved and to grow. What do you think Jesus was talking about here...?

He's talking about the faith of a despised pagan Canaanite.

KJV Matthew 15:21-28
21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Do you understand the difference between the flesh and the spirit in the context of the above verses?

Do you understand "...It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs."???

Exodus 12:43-45; Ezek. 44:9 – no one outside the “family of God” shall eat the lamb. Non-Catholics should not partake of the Eucharist until they are in full communion with the Church. 1 Cor. 11:30 – this verse alludes to the consequences of receiving the Eucharist unworthily.

Was the Canaanite woman healed by eating physical crumbs that Jesus fed her?

No, but we are.

Was she healed by eating Him?

No, but we are. We believe in the Real Presence, you believe in a real absence.

Or was she healed and delivered by believing in Who He is, and had the power to speak life into darkness?

She was healed because of her faith in His authority, similar to the pagan Centurion. Jesus had not yet instituted His Real Presence in the Eucharist at this time. Note that in the same chapter, Jesus feeds 4000 hungry men, besides women and children, as a foreshadow of His power to multiply His Body and Blood that gives us eternal life. Symbols don't have that kind of power.

There is a lot more to faith than intellectually consuming text from a book. Belief in the Real Presence is a supernatural gift, no straining to grasp the unexplainable is involved.

"Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, 'Take, eat; this is my body.' And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, 'Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.'" (Matthew 26:26-28)

Not many come to the full realization that the Eucharistic Sacrifice in the Upper Room is one and the same sacrifice as the Crucifixion. "Bible Alone" proves it.
So we eat Him, like He told us to.

Eucharistic Index - The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist

Introduction to the Eucharist, the Eucharist in Scripture, the Eucharist and Vatican II, Eucharistic Miracles, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration, and evidence proving that the Early Christians believed in the Real Presence.

therealpresence.org