What is the Price Jesus Paid?

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quietthinker

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The world is not forgiven.

Presumptive sinning is to believe their present and future sinning is already forgiven.

No sin is forgiven, until it is confessed from the heart.

Jesus paid the price to be forgiven, not to be sinning and be already forgiven.
The first words Jesus spoke to the paralytic let down through the roof were, 'your sins are forgiven'.....and this before the man had said a word.
It was the religious holier than thou tight shorts who found offence. Isn't that startling?
 
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CadyandZoe

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The world is not forgiven.

Presumptive sinning is to believe their present and future sinning is already forgiven.

No sin is forgiven, until it is confessed from the heart.

Jesus paid the price to be forgiven, not to be sinning and be already forgiven.
No, I disagree. Jesus didn't need to die so that I might be forgiven. Forgiveness doesn't require payment or else it wouldn't be forgiveness.

Rather, Jesus died so that I might be granted eternal life. There is a difference between having one's sins forgiven and having the penalty for sin removed, i.e. being granted life instead of death.

I agree with your objection to those who think that forgiveness gives license to sin. In his epistle to the Romans Paul asks the question, "Shall we continue in sin that grace might increase? Heaven forbid." Did Jesus die so that we might continue to sin? No way! Right?
 

RedFan

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No, I disagree. Jesus didn't need to die so that I might be forgiven. Forgiveness doesn't require payment or else it wouldn't be forgiveness.

Rather, Jesus died so that I might be granted eternal life. There is a difference between having one's sins forgiven and having the penalty for sin removed, i.e. being granted life instead of death.

I agree with your objection to those who think that forgiveness gives license to sin. In his epistle to the Romans Paul asks the question, "Shall we continue in sin that grace might increase? Heaven forbid." Did Jesus die so that we might continue to sin? No way! Right?

Is eternal life assured for believers, despite their sins?
 

CadyandZoe

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Is eternal life assured for believers, despite their sins?
Eternal life is assured for those whom God is saving. Belief is one marker that a person is being saved by God. There are other markers we can discuss if you like. If God is saving a person, then through his power, that person will be saved. (Refer to 1Peter chapter one for instance.)

Not all believers will be saved according to Jesus. Some will fall away, while others will not. The difference, it seems, is God's work in the heart.

There are those who teach a form of slavery, which involves keeping a diary of every sin ever committed. If every sin has been confessed, then salvation is assured, but if every sin has not been confessed, then salvation is doubtful.

That view is foreign to the New Testament and the teaching of Jesus. John, his apostle, tells us that if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive our sins. But John didn't mean to suggest that if we forget to confess our sins, God will not be faithful to forgive it.

God knows that I would have confessed it if I had remembered to confess it. He isn't a bureaucrat, keeping score. He is a loving Father who cares for his children and he knows that we have many years of maturity and wisdom to gain. He not only sees us as we are, he sees us as we will eventually be.
 
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RedFan

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Eternal life is assured for those whom God is saving. Belief is one marker that a person is being saved by God. There are other markers we can discuss if you like. If God is saving a person, then through his power, that person will be saved. (Refer to 1Peter chapter one for instance.)

Not all believers will be saved according to Jesus. Some will fall away, while others will not. The difference, it seems, is God's work in the heart.

Then salvation is a process, not a one shot deal. The proper answer to Fundamentalists who ask me "Are you saved?" is "Not yet; I am being saved (hopefully)."
 
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CadyandZoe

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Then salvation is a process, not a one shot deal. The proper answer to Fundamentalists who ask me "Are you saved?" is "Not yet; I am being saved (hopefully)."
Yeah. During the time of the New Testament people in the first century would speak about salvation as if it were a fait accompli. With respect to God, a thing that has already been decided is as if the thing has already happened. A promise made is a promise kept, to borrow a phrase.

From our perspective in history, we experience our salvation as a life on trajectory toward permanence, living by faith and in hope.
 

robert derrick

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No, I disagree. Jesus didn't need to die so that I might be forgiven. Forgiveness doesn't require payment or else it wouldn't be forgiveness.

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Jesus died and shed His blood for forgiveness of sins: forgiveness comes with great price.

Rather, Jesus died so that I might be granted eternal life. There is a difference between having one's sins forgiven and having the penalty for sin removed, i.e. being granted life instead of death.

The penalty of death is not removed, until the cause of death is forgiven: sinning.

The separated soul cannot live again, except the past sins first be forgiven.

No man has the eternal life of God with a defiled conscience of unforgiven sinning.

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

I agree with your objection to those who think that forgiveness gives license to sin. In his epistle to the Romans Paul asks the question, "Shall we continue in sin that grace might increase? Heaven forbid." Did Jesus die so that we might continue to sin? No way! Right?

Right.

No man has eternal life in Christ Jesus while sinning with the devil.
 
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robert derrick

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Eternal life is assured for those whom God is saving. Belief is one marker that a person is being saved by God. There are other markers we can discuss if you like. If God is saving a person, then through his power, that person will be saved. (Refer to 1Peter chapter one for instance.)

Not all believers will be saved according to Jesus. Some will fall away, while others will not. The difference, it seems, is God's work in the heart.

There are those who teach a form of slavery, which involves keeping a diary of every sin ever committed. If every sin has been confessed, then salvation is assured, but if every sin has not been confessed, then salvation is doubtful.

That view is foreign to the New Testament and the teaching of Jesus. John, his apostle, tells us that if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive our sins. But John didn't mean to suggest that if we forget to confess our sins, God will not be faithful to forgive it.

God knows that I would have confessed it if I had remembered to confess it. He isn't a bureaucrat, keeping score. He is a loving Father who cares for his children and he knows that we have many years of maturity and wisdom to gain. He not only sees us as we are, he sees us as we will eventually be.
It's all much simpler:

No man while sinning with the devil against God is being saved, has eternal life, nor is born of God.

I John 3:6-10 is all about the present: No man is forgiven of God while fornicating, blaspheming, profanely cursing, thieving, etc...

Any past forgiveness and righteousness matters no more, and a future confession is not guaranteed, whether because of bodily death or God is no more drawing us to repent.

Eternal life is assured for those whom God is saving. Belief is one marker that a person is being saved by God. There are other markers we can discuss if you like. If God is saving a person, then through his power, that person will be saved. (Refer to 1Peter chapter one for instance.)

True, if we are being saved now, and we endure temptation tomorrow, we will be saved in the end.

[QUOTE="CadyandZoe, post: 1360564, member: 8753"Not all believers will be saved according to Jesus. Some will fall away, while others will not. The difference, it seems, is God's work in the heart.[/QUOTE]

The difference is those guarding their hearts to keep pure in heart, and keeping their souls from sinning with the flesh. The first works of salvation is purifying the heart and loving God with a whole heart.

The simplicity of Christ Jesus is simply singleness of heart with a single eye on Jesus, and no more eye for sinning with the devil, The Old man and life of sinning is dead on our own cross for His sake.

[QUOTE="CadyandZoe, post: 1360564, member: 8753There are those who teach a form of slavery, which involves keeping a diary of every sin ever committed. If every sin has been confessed, then salvation is assured, but if every sin has not been confessed, then salvation is doubtful.

That view is foreign to the New Testament and the teaching of Jesus. John, his apostle, tells us that if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive our sins. But John didn't mean to suggest that if we forget to confess our sins, God will not be faithful to forgive it.[/QUOTE]

A son of God knows if he is sinning and has sinned, because we are convicted by the Spirit from within the heart, unlike the world that is only convicted by an angry God from without.

The chastening of the Lord with His people today, is to know we have separated ourselves from Jesus' fellowship and Spirit of grace by sinning.

[QUOTE="CadyandZoe, post: 1360564, member: 8753That view is foreign to the New Testament and the teaching of Jesus. John, his apostle, tells us that if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive our sins. But John didn't mean to suggest that if we forget to confess our sins, God will not be faithful to forgive it.[/QUOTE]

He didn't 'suggest' anything, but declared it plainly: If we confess...

The doctrine of past, present, and futures sins being already or automatically forgiven is false.

We either account for our sinning now in mercy of forgiveness, or we are accounted with the rest of the dead in judgment.
 
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CadyandZoe

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The doctrine of past, present, and futures sins being already or automatically forgiven is false.
It depends. If God is saving a person, then yes, all past present and future sins are forgiven.

We either account for our sinning now in mercy of forgiveness, or we are accounted with the rest of the dead in judgment.
Okay, sure. But as I say, if God is saving us, then we are already accounted as destined for eternal life.
 

CadyandZoe

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And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Jesus died and shed His blood for forgiveness of sins: forgiveness comes with great price.
Sure, okay. But bear in mind that the verse you cited is proof that sins were forgiven at the shedding of animal blood. Jesus didn't need to die for our sins to be forgiven.

The penalty of death is not removed, until the cause of death is forgiven: sinning.
Not quite. The penalty of death is removed at the rapture, when the church is raised from the dead and given life eternal.

The separated soul cannot live again, except the past sins first be forgiven.
Anyone can be forgiven at any time. All souls are separated until they aren't.

No man has eternal life in Christ Jesus while sinning with the devil.
No man has eternal life until Jesus calls them out of the grave.
 

Ziggy

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What is the cost?

Luk 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luk 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

We live in a world of $$$$ materialism. We see animals, blood, death...
But there is a deeper cost that casts no mortal shadow. And that cost is of the heart.
I posted a video a few pages back with a chapter from the bible.
God is speaking to his children. Some people are "tone" deaf though, and they can't hear the agony and suffering God is feeling for his children who have sold their souls to vanity.

In order for Abraham to follow God, he would need to scarifice his only son Isaac.
Suppose Abraham had to reason in himself if 1. he could follow through with it? 2. the promise was worth the sacrifice?
Do you suppose Abraham had a war going on in his mind?
This war of the mind is the beginning of the cost.
It causes conflict, doubt, fear, what if??? all these are a cost of the peace within us.

Jesus (the Word)

In the days of Noah, God spoke, and he said he would destroy all life from the earth because it had become so evil.
those words once spoken would not come back without a result.
Once spoken it needed to be fulfilled.
God put a clause in it. He made a way for humanities existence by finding Noah a Just man, and saving his life and the world of generations to come.

Now God would have to consider in his heart, was man worth saving?
How much more suffering and pain am I able to abide for the creation of my own hands?
God had to count the cost.
God was in the process of creating a world where those whom he loved, loved him back.
That tower in the parable is humanity.

The world once again took the wrong path. God spoke the Word, and the Word bacame flesh.
That Word became God's son.
God would have to sacrifice his own child to save the world... again.
In the case of Abraham God made a way for Isaac by providing a ram in his place.
But in order to truly redeem man from all sin, God would have to have his son finish it.
There could be no subtitute.

What was the cost God paid to watch his son die for the world?
What cost was the Word willing to fulfill in order to lay that solid foundation?
It would cost faith, trust, hope, love, mercy, goodness, longsuffering..
Every fruit would need to be engaged in the battle.
The battle of self (the Truth) over the world (the man)

We know Jesus went up to the mountain and prayed... a lot.
On earth, all of his followers believed he was the King on earth. And he probably could have aquired that crown and ruled for a duration of time.
Until old age set in and he would die a carnal death like the way of all earthly kings.
On the other hand, he was faced with an eterenal promise of Glory and an endless sea of children that would love him forever and ever.
Could he do it?
Jesus had to count the cost.
Will I be able to lay my life down as Isaac did, and put my life in my Father's hands without reservation?
Would my faith be strong enough?

Cost doesn't always come in the form of material gain or loss.
Most times cost comes from the heart.
And a willingness to give everything of oneself for those they love.

Jhn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Abraham was God's friend. God made Abraham a promise. He gave Abraham his Word.
And his Word was sent to fulfill that promise.
And those that have the faith of Abraham and believe in Jesus Christ, God's son whom he sent to save the world,
have received the promise.
One must only believe....
How much does that belief cost in a world of material gain?

Just thinking..
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Ziggy

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I see it as straining to absurdity to say that people are purchased 'from themselves.'
This made me consider the Hebrews that were freed from Egypt.
What was the cost of their freedom?
They cried that they wished they had died in Egypt where the "livin was easy"

Exo 16:3 And the children of Israel said unto them, Would to God we had died by the hand of the LORD in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the flesh pots, and when we did eat bread to the full; for ye have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger.

Num 20:2 And there was no water for the congregation: and they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron.
Num 20:3 And the people chode with Moses, and spake, saying, Would God that we had died when our brethren died before the LORD!
Num 20:4 And why have ye brought up the congregation of the LORD into this wilderness, that we and our cattle should die there?
Num 20:5 And wherefore have ye made us to come up out of Egypt, to bring us in unto this evil place? it is no place of seed, or of figs, or of vines, or of pomegranates; neither is there any water to drink.

Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

What did God "pay" them to "purchase" them... "from themselves?"

The only answer I can find is: His Word.

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Ziggy

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Absurdity validated.
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