What is the purpose of Grace?

[Grailhunter]

Grace is the POWER to walk as Jesus walked. Grace gets us translated into the kingdom to walk IN Him. IN Him is no sin.

Being under grace means we are no longer walking in our own power, where sin can drag us down. Even the smallest amount of grace overcomes sin. MY grace is sufficient for you. What does that mean? It means it is sufficient to obey the commandment to BE HOLY, for I am holy. Jesus has not left us orphaned, but provided a new and living way in Him....to walk with Him and to partake of His life, and peace,

Any doctrine that goes against this is false. It's another gospel...,meant to justify the flesh.

I hope you will open your heart to the truth.

You do not understand Grace....

 

[Wrangler]

None is righteous, no, not one....Romans 3:10

How do you reconcile this with be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect? Matthew 5:48

 

[Dan Clarkston]

I mean when we are UNDER GRACE meaning we are cleaved to Him as a magnet is stuck to a fridge....it is Him that keeps us there...no effort.

It is by grace not works at that level. It is in holiness.

What you are speaking of is what we do when we are NOT under grace. Then it is...draw near to Me and I will draw near to you.

So whether we are present or absent from the Lord, we do all to be ACCEPTED of Him. It's the faith that pleases Him.

And yet the Lord tells us to strive to enter by the narrow gate - Luke 13:24
Paul, under leading of the Spirit, said he fought the good fight of faith, saying he had kept the faith - 2 Timothy 4:7-8
Who ever we yield ourselves servants to obey, that's who we belong to - Romans 6:16

We have access to God's power and abilities by grace thru faith so there is responsibility on our part and grace is not some magical fairy tale thing that automatically makes us do what we know we should be doing as some teach. No faith = no grace.

Faith is action and our faith is the faith of Jesus Christ (Galatians 2:20). He gave us His faith which is what give us access to His grace if we stand on and live in His promises as written in His Word. As we plant His Word in us and walk in it with patience (constancy or consistency) then we will bare fruit.

Just because someone gets born again and starts a relationship with the Lord does not mean He does everything and we aren't required to do something on our part. The reformed people who claim man has no free will teach God does everything and we do nothing which is not correct.

No we are not earning our salvation, we are to simply to continually choose the Lord to abide in Christ daily and that's when He ability and strength become our by faith thru grace. (see Romans 6:16)

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

In this definition of grace we find in God's Word that WE have some responsibility much to the chagrin of the reformed peeps.

 

[bdavidc]

In this episode we explore the purpose of grace and by extension the purpose of salvation. Is the prime directive of the gospel that God fulfill our desires or that we meet His?

You are teaching false doctrine again, and Scripture refutes it. You teach that once we are born again, we receive only a “sample” of grace and eternal life, and then have to spend our lives “purchasing” more grace. Jesus never said anything like that: “He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.” John 6:47. A sample? No. Temporary life? No. Everlasting life.

You say salvation by grace through faith is “half true.” Paul says: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9. And before you turn obedience into the means of obtaining salvation, verse 10 gives the order. We are saved first, then “created in Christ Jesus unto good works.” Good works do not buy or earn salvation. They are the result of salvation.

You teach that we must “purchase” more grace. Scripture says: “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.” Romans 11:6. If you have to purchase it, it is no longer grace.

You even teach that justification is “not in the death of Jesus” and that “it’s not the death of Jesus that justifies us.” Paul says: “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Romans 5:9.

You teach that the gospel is “not the death of Jesus.” Paul explains what the gospel includes: “Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.” 1 Corinthians 15:3-4. When you say the gospel is not the death of Christ, you directly contradict Paul’s definition of the gospel.

You also deny that God gives righteousness to the believer. Scripture says otherwise: “Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe.” Romans 3:22. And: “David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.” Romans 4:6. This is not a slight disagreement over the interpretation of a few verses. You are redefining grace, salvation, justification, righteousness, the new birth, and the gospel itself.

Paul warns: “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:8. You can label biblical justification “Babylonian” all day long. Scripture will not change. Christ’s blood justifies. Salvation is by grace through faith. Eternal life is God’s gift. Good works follow salvation. They do not purchase it.

Stop taking Old Testament passages out of context to build a salvation system that contradicts the plain teaching of Christ and His apostles. “Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.” Titus 1:9. Your teaching has been tested by Scripture, and on these points it fails completely.

 

[bdavidc]

This religious speak. And childish. Like...do I have to believe in the trinity to be saved??? Something a little unlearned child might say.

You don't have to believe in the Jesus that saves you for the righteous. You need to obey Him whether you know Him or not. Minimum standard to love others as yourself. Do that and you will inherit life.

All have to repent IF they are not already righteous. The righteous are there to show us how we ought to behave in the world. Believers aren't always paying attention to that.

Baptized in water or the Spirit? Baptized in water represents washing away a sinful life. This is on a repentance from evil and dead works level...aka righteousness. Baptized in the Spirit means embarking on a spiritual life and the race of faith. It is an intro into holiness.

Rituals don't save people. The bread and wine have a deeper significance of eating His flesh and drinking His blood...which represents righteousness and holiness. Eating His flesh is to obey God as a human can. Drinking His blood means partaking of the life of Jesus. Communion is about thanksgiving and commemorates the Passover (the 3rd cup .....of redemption)

You said, “You don't have to believe in the Jesus that saves you for the righteous,” and that if someone loves others as himself, “Do that and you will inherit life.” No Scripture says that.

Look at Cornelius. Scripture tells us he was “a devout man, and one that feared God,” who gave alms and prayed continually (Acts 10:2). Despite this, God sent Peter to him with “words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved” (Acts 11:14). What did Peter preach? “Through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins” (Acts 10:43).

Jesus said, “if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins” (John 8:24). Scripture also says, “Neither is there salvation in any other” (Acts 4:12). Loving your neighbor will not give someone eternal life apart from Christ. Good works cannot take the place of faith in the Son.

Your statement that repentance is only necessary for those who are not “already righteous” does not line up with Scripture either. God “commandeth all men every where to repent” (Acts 17:30), and “all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).

Scripture does not teach that water baptism is one spiritual level called “righteousness” and Spirit baptism begins another level called “holiness.” Paul says, “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body” (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Scripture also does not define eating Christ’s flesh as “righteousness” and drinking His blood as “holiness.” Jesus had already said in John 6, “he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst” (John 6:35). The whole passage keeps drawing people back to Christ and believing in Him, not to two separate spiritual categories.

The cup is also called “the new testament in my blood” (1 Corinthians 11:25). Scripture does not teach your righteousness and holiness division. Those categories are being placed on the text. They are not coming from the text.

Most importantly, Scripture does not allow for a class of morally righteous people who inherit eternal life without knowing or believing in Christ. “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life” (1 John 5:12).

 

[bdavidc]

That's sad....you only see the physical aspect of the commemoration and not the power of the Spirit. So sad. The system sure does mess up people's minds. They don't enter the kingdom and they stop others from entering.

This saddens me very much.

Water baptism is NOT regeneration by the Spirit. It gets you from Egypt into the wilderness. It is the second water crossing...that of the Jordan that gets you into the Promised Land...which is representative of the kingdom of God...to walk as He walked in His resurrection life and power.

I hope you will reconsider your understanding as being very weak indeed.

This is where I think your interpretation goes beyond what Scripture actually says. You are making the Red Sea represent one stage where someone enters the wilderness, then making the Jordan represent a later entrance into the kingdom and a higher level of holiness. But where does the New Testament actually teach that structure?

Paul does use the Red Sea as an example in 1 Corinthians 10:2 when he says Israel was “baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.” But when you read the whole passage, his point is a warning about unbelief, idolatry, lust, and falling away in the wilderness. He never says the Red Sea represents one level of salvation while crossing the Jordan represents a second entrance into Christ or the kingdom.

Colossians 1:13 says that God “hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.” Paul speaks of believers as already translated into Christ’s kingdom, not waiting for some later spiritual Jordan crossing before they can enter it.

The same problem comes up when water baptism and Spirit baptism are turned into two different spiritual levels called righteousness and holiness. Paul says, “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body” (1 Corinthians 12:13), and Ephesians 4:5 says, “One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”

Paul also tells the Corinthians, “but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Corinthians 6:11). He does not separate Christians into one group that has reached righteousness and another group that later crosses over into holiness.

Of course believers are supposed to grow, mature, obey Christ, and pursue holiness after salvation. Scripture teaches that clearly. But that is very different from creating a second entrance into Christ or the kingdom by assigning that meaning to Israel crossing the Jordan.

Israel’s history gives us real examples and warnings, but we cannot build doctrine by assigning spiritual meanings to events that the apostles themselves never gave them. That is the problem with this two-stage system. The structure is being placed onto the text instead of being taught by the text.

 

[Grailhunter]

This is where I think your interpretation goes beyond what Scripture actually says. You are making the Red Sea represent one stage where someone enters the wilderness, then making the Jordan represent a later entrance into the kingdom and a higher level of holiness. But where does the New Testament actually teach that structure?

Paul does use the Red Sea as an example in 1 Corinthians 10:2 when he says Israel was “baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.” But when you read the whole passage, his point is a warning about unbelief, idolatry, lust, and falling away in the wilderness. He never says the Red Sea represents one level of salvation while crossing the Jordan represents a second entrance into Christ or the kingdom.

Colossians 1:13 says that God “hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.” Paul speaks of believers as already translated into Christ’s kingdom, not waiting for some later spiritual Jordan crossing before they can enter it.

The same problem comes up when water baptism and Spirit baptism are turned into two different spiritual levels called righteousness and holiness. Paul says, “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body” (1 Corinthians 12:13), and Ephesians 4:5 says, “One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”

Paul also tells the Corinthians, “but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Corinthians 6:11). He does not separate Christians into one group that has reached righteousness and another group that later crosses over into holiness.

Of course believers are supposed to grow, mature, obey Christ, and pursue holiness after salvation. Scripture teaches that clearly. But that is very different from creating a second entrance into Christ or the kingdom by assigning that meaning to Israel crossing the Jordan.

Israel’s history gives us real examples and warnings, but we cannot build doctrine by assigning spiritual meanings to events that the apostles themselves never gave them. That is the problem with this two-stage system. The structure is being placed onto the text instead of being taught by the text.

Bravo!!

 

[Wrangler]

This is where I think your interpretation goes beyond what Scripture actually says. You are making the Red Sea represent one stage where someone enters the wilderness, then making the Jordan represent a later entrance into the kingdom and a higher level of holiness. But where does the New Testament actually teach that structure?

If we showed you, I doubt you’d abandon your indoctrinated theology. Frankly, it is VERY obvious from Scripture there is this structure and it is presented in many ways.

1. Paul talks about milk in comparison to meat. What is that all about? Progression.
2. Hebrews compares Moses inferior to another prophet. What is that all about? Progression.
3. Hebrews also talks about how the new covenant is superior to the old covenant in every way. What is that all about? Progression.
4. Fear is the beginning of wisdom but Hebrews informs us that perfect love displaces all fear. You guessed it, more progressive structure.
5. Yes we are to believe in Jesus but that is the beginning. We will be rewarded based on our deeds. What is that all about? progressive structure.
6. 2nd Corinthians talks about a progressive structure or order to the resurrection.
7. Our Lord talks about what you have done to the least AND while John is the greatest prophet, the least in the kingdom is greater than he.
8. Jesus, himself, was perfected through suffering.

Honestly, if you don”t recognize the progression in the Bible, I got to question your reading comprehension. I’m sure I could disregard the above list and compile an even longer one and so could @Episkopos but it wouldn’t alter the trajectory of your ears to hear beyond your indoctrinated theology.

There is no progressive structure in Scripture; Jesus wasted his breath saying over and over to sin no more and to do the will of the Father - because his audience was already there, not sinning and unwaveringly doing the will of the Father (/sarcasmj.