What is the purpose of Grace?

[Grailhunter]

Grace is the POWER to walk as Jesus walked. Grace gets us translated into the kingdom to walk IN Him. IN Him is no sin.

Being under grace means we are no longer walking in our own power, where sin can drag us down. Even the smallest amount of grace overcomes sin. MY grace is sufficient for you. What does that mean? It means it is sufficient to obey the commandment to BE HOLY, for I am holy. Jesus has not left us orphaned, but provided a new and living way in Him....to walk with Him and to partake of His life, and peace,

Any doctrine that goes against this is false. It's another gospel...,meant to justify the flesh.

I hope you will open your heart to the truth.

You do not understand Grace....

 

[Wrangler]

None is righteous, no, not one....Romans 3:10

How do you reconcile this with be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect? Matthew 5:48

 

[Dan Clarkston]

I mean when we are UNDER GRACE meaning we are cleaved to Him as a magnet is stuck to a fridge....it is Him that keeps us there...no effort.

It is by grace not works at that level. It is in holiness.

What you are speaking of is what we do when we are NOT under grace. Then it is...draw near to Me and I will draw near to you.

So whether we are present or absent from the Lord, we do all to be ACCEPTED of Him. It's the faith that pleases Him.

And yet the Lord tells us to strive to enter by the narrow gate - Luke 13:24
Paul, under leading of the Spirit, said he fought the good fight of faith, saying he had kept the faith - 2 Timothy 4:7-8
Who ever we yield ourselves servants to obey, that's who we belong to - Romans 6:16

We have access to God's power and abilities by grace thru faith so there is responsibility on our part and grace is not some magical fairy tale thing that automatically makes us do what we know we should be doing as some teach. No faith = no grace.

Faith is action and our faith is the faith of Jesus Christ (Galatians 2:20). He gave us His faith which is what give us access to His grace if we stand on and live in His promises as written in His Word. As we plant His Word in us and walk in it with patience (constancy or consistency) then we will bare fruit.

Just because someone gets born again and starts a relationship with the Lord does not mean He does everything and we aren't required to do something on our part. The reformed people who claim man has no free will teach God does everything and we do nothing which is not correct.

No we are not earning our salvation, we are to simply to continually choose the Lord to abide in Christ daily and that's when He ability and strength become our by faith thru grace. (see Romans 6:16)

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

In this definition of grace we find in God's Word that WE have some responsibility much to the chagrin of the reformed peeps.

 

[bdavidc]

In this episode we explore the purpose of grace and by extension the purpose of salvation. Is the prime directive of the gospel that God fulfill our desires or that we meet His?

You are teaching false doctrine again, and Scripture refutes it. You teach that once we are born again, we receive only a “sample” of grace and eternal life, and then have to spend our lives “purchasing” more grace. Jesus never said anything like that: “He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.” John 6:47. A sample? No. Temporary life? No. Everlasting life.

You say salvation by grace through faith is “half true.” Paul says: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9. And before you turn obedience into the means of obtaining salvation, verse 10 gives the order. We are saved first, then “created in Christ Jesus unto good works.” Good works do not buy or earn salvation. They are the result of salvation.

You teach that we must “purchase” more grace. Scripture says: “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.” Romans 11:6. If you have to purchase it, it is no longer grace.

You even teach that justification is “not in the death of Jesus” and that “it’s not the death of Jesus that justifies us.” Paul says: “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Romans 5:9.

You teach that the gospel is “not the death of Jesus.” Paul explains what the gospel includes: “Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.” 1 Corinthians 15:3-4. When you say the gospel is not the death of Christ, you directly contradict Paul’s definition of the gospel.

You also deny that God gives righteousness to the believer. Scripture says otherwise: “Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe.” Romans 3:22. And: “David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.” Romans 4:6. This is not a slight disagreement over the interpretation of a few verses. You are redefining grace, salvation, justification, righteousness, the new birth, and the gospel itself.

Paul warns: “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:8. You can label biblical justification “Babylonian” all day long. Scripture will not change. Christ’s blood justifies. Salvation is by grace through faith. Eternal life is God’s gift. Good works follow salvation. They do not purchase it.

Stop taking Old Testament passages out of context to build a salvation system that contradicts the plain teaching of Christ and His apostles. “Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.” Titus 1:9. Your teaching has been tested by Scripture, and on these points it fails completely.

 

[bdavidc]

This religious speak. And childish. Like...do I have to believe in the trinity to be saved??? Something a little unlearned child might say.

You don't have to believe in the Jesus that saves you for the righteous. You need to obey Him whether you know Him or not. Minimum standard to love others as yourself. Do that and you will inherit life.

All have to repent IF they are not already righteous. The righteous are there to show us how we ought to behave in the world. Believers aren't always paying attention to that.

Baptized in water or the Spirit? Baptized in water represents washing away a sinful life. This is on a repentance from evil and dead works level...aka righteousness. Baptized in the Spirit means embarking on a spiritual life and the race of faith. It is an intro into holiness.

Rituals don't save people. The bread and wine have a deeper significance of eating His flesh and drinking His blood...which represents righteousness and holiness. Eating His flesh is to obey God as a human can. Drinking His blood means partaking of the life of Jesus. Communion is about thanksgiving and commemorates the Passover (the 3rd cup .....of redemption)

You said, “You don't have to believe in the Jesus that saves you for the righteous,” and that if someone loves others as himself, “Do that and you will inherit life.” No Scripture says that.

Look at Cornelius. Scripture tells us he was “a devout man, and one that feared God,” who gave alms and prayed continually (Acts 10:2). Despite this, God sent Peter to him with “words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved” (Acts 11:14). What did Peter preach? “Through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins” (Acts 10:43).

Jesus said, “if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins” (John 8:24). Scripture also says, “Neither is there salvation in any other” (Acts 4:12). Loving your neighbor will not give someone eternal life apart from Christ. Good works cannot take the place of faith in the Son.

Your statement that repentance is only necessary for those who are not “already righteous” does not line up with Scripture either. God “commandeth all men every where to repent” (Acts 17:30), and “all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).

Scripture does not teach that water baptism is one spiritual level called “righteousness” and Spirit baptism begins another level called “holiness.” Paul says, “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body” (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Scripture also does not define eating Christ’s flesh as “righteousness” and drinking His blood as “holiness.” Jesus had already said in John 6, “he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst” (John 6:35). The whole passage keeps drawing people back to Christ and believing in Him, not to two separate spiritual categories.

The cup is also called “the new testament in my blood” (1 Corinthians 11:25). Scripture does not teach your righteousness and holiness division. Those categories are being placed on the text. They are not coming from the text.

Most importantly, Scripture does not allow for a class of morally righteous people who inherit eternal life without knowing or believing in Christ. “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life” (1 John 5:12).

 

[bdavidc]

That's sad....you only see the physical aspect of the commemoration and not the power of the Spirit. So sad. The system sure does mess up people's minds. They don't enter the kingdom and they stop others from entering.

This saddens me very much.

Water baptism is NOT regeneration by the Spirit. It gets you from Egypt into the wilderness. It is the second water crossing...that of the Jordan that gets you into the Promised Land...which is representative of the kingdom of God...to walk as He walked in His resurrection life and power.

I hope you will reconsider your understanding as being very weak indeed.

This is where I think your interpretation goes beyond what Scripture actually says. You are making the Red Sea represent one stage where someone enters the wilderness, then making the Jordan represent a later entrance into the kingdom and a higher level of holiness. But where does the New Testament actually teach that structure?

Paul does use the Red Sea as an example in 1 Corinthians 10:2 when he says Israel was “baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.” But when you read the whole passage, his point is a warning about unbelief, idolatry, lust, and falling away in the wilderness. He never says the Red Sea represents one level of salvation while crossing the Jordan represents a second entrance into Christ or the kingdom.

Colossians 1:13 says that God “hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.” Paul speaks of believers as already translated into Christ’s kingdom, not waiting for some later spiritual Jordan crossing before they can enter it.

The same problem comes up when water baptism and Spirit baptism are turned into two different spiritual levels called righteousness and holiness. Paul says, “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body” (1 Corinthians 12:13), and Ephesians 4:5 says, “One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”

Paul also tells the Corinthians, “but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Corinthians 6:11). He does not separate Christians into one group that has reached righteousness and another group that later crosses over into holiness.

Of course believers are supposed to grow, mature, obey Christ, and pursue holiness after salvation. Scripture teaches that clearly. But that is very different from creating a second entrance into Christ or the kingdom by assigning that meaning to Israel crossing the Jordan.

Israel’s history gives us real examples and warnings, but we cannot build doctrine by assigning spiritual meanings to events that the apostles themselves never gave them. That is the problem with this two-stage system. The structure is being placed onto the text instead of being taught by the text.

 

[Grailhunter]

This is where I think your interpretation goes beyond what Scripture actually says. You are making the Red Sea represent one stage where someone enters the wilderness, then making the Jordan represent a later entrance into the kingdom and a higher level of holiness. But where does the New Testament actually teach that structure?

Paul does use the Red Sea as an example in 1 Corinthians 10:2 when he says Israel was “baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.” But when you read the whole passage, his point is a warning about unbelief, idolatry, lust, and falling away in the wilderness. He never says the Red Sea represents one level of salvation while crossing the Jordan represents a second entrance into Christ or the kingdom.

Colossians 1:13 says that God “hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.” Paul speaks of believers as already translated into Christ’s kingdom, not waiting for some later spiritual Jordan crossing before they can enter it.

The same problem comes up when water baptism and Spirit baptism are turned into two different spiritual levels called righteousness and holiness. Paul says, “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body” (1 Corinthians 12:13), and Ephesians 4:5 says, “One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”

Paul also tells the Corinthians, “but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Corinthians 6:11). He does not separate Christians into one group that has reached righteousness and another group that later crosses over into holiness.

Of course believers are supposed to grow, mature, obey Christ, and pursue holiness after salvation. Scripture teaches that clearly. But that is very different from creating a second entrance into Christ or the kingdom by assigning that meaning to Israel crossing the Jordan.

Israel’s history gives us real examples and warnings, but we cannot build doctrine by assigning spiritual meanings to events that the apostles themselves never gave them. That is the problem with this two-stage system. The structure is being placed onto the text instead of being taught by the text.

Bravo!!

 

[Wrangler]

This is where I think your interpretation goes beyond what Scripture actually says. You are making the Red Sea represent one stage where someone enters the wilderness, then making the Jordan represent a later entrance into the kingdom and a higher level of holiness. But where does the New Testament actually teach that structure?

If we showed you, I doubt you’d abandon your indoctrinated theology. Frankly, it is VERY obvious from Scripture there is this structure and it is presented in many ways.

1. Paul talks about milk in comparison to meat. What is that all about? Progression.
2. Hebrews compares Moses inferior to another prophet. What is that all about? Progression.
3. Hebrews also talks about how the new covenant is superior to the old covenant in every way. What is that all about? Progression.
4. Fear is the beginning of wisdom but Hebrews informs us that perfect love displaces all fear. You guessed it, more progressive structure.
5. Yes we are to believe in Jesus but that is the beginning. We will be rewarded based on our deeds. What is that all about? progressive structure.
6. 2nd Corinthians talks about a progressive structure or order to the resurrection.
7. Our Lord talks about what you have done to the least AND while John is the greatest prophet, the least in the kingdom is greater than he.
8. Jesus, himself, was perfected through suffering.

Honestly, if you don”t recognize the progression in the Bible, I got to question your reading comprehension. I’m sure I could disregard the above list and compile an even longer one and so could @Episkopos but it wouldn’t alter the trajectory of your ears to hear beyond your indoctrinated theology.

There is no progressive structure in Scripture; Jesus wasted his breath saying over and over to sin no more and to do the will of the Father - because his audience was already there, not sinning and unwaveringly doing the will of the Father (/sarcasmj.

 

[Lizbeth]

This is where I think your interpretation goes beyond what Scripture actually says. You are making the Red Sea represent one stage where someone enters the wilderness, then making the Jordan represent a later entrance into the kingdom and a higher level of holiness. But where does the New Testament actually teach that structure?

Paul does use the Red Sea as an example in 1 Corinthians 10:2 when he says Israel was “baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.” But when you read the whole passage, his point is a warning about unbelief, idolatry, lust, and falling away in the wilderness. He never says the Red Sea represents one level of salvation while crossing the Jordan represents a second entrance into Christ or the kingdom.

Colossians 1:13 says that God “hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.” Paul speaks of believers as already translated into Christ’s kingdom, not waiting for some later spiritual Jordan crossing before they can enter it.

The same problem comes up when water baptism and Spirit baptism are turned into two different spiritual levels called righteousness and holiness. Paul says, “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body” (1 Corinthians 12:13), and Ephesians 4:5 says, “One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”

Paul also tells the Corinthians, “but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Corinthians 6:11). He does not separate Christians into one group that has reached righteousness and another group that later crosses over into holiness.

Of course believers are supposed to grow, mature, obey Christ, and pursue holiness after salvation. Scripture teaches that clearly. But that is very different from creating a second entrance into Christ or the kingdom by assigning that meaning to Israel crossing the Jordan.

Israel’s history gives us real examples and warnings, but we cannot build doctrine by assigning spiritual meanings to events that the apostles themselves never gave them. That is the problem with this two-stage system. The structure is being placed onto the text instead of being taught by the text.

It is the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth.........not everything is spoon fed to us by being explicitly stated in the scriptures....there are things we need to harvest/glean out of the word ourselves (with the Spirit's help) as we grow and mature. The new testament says concerning the "church in the wilderness" that those things happened unto them and were written down for our admonition as ensamples. So........my question based on that, is what does that crossing of a second body of water mean to the church? It must mean something. Though it was a literal event for the Israelites, it was written down to serve as a parable for us, the new covenant church.........the Word made flesh speaks to us in parables. It is a picture of something.......and notice the wording where it says they were circumcised "a second time", even though literally that generation had not been circumcised at all until then....the previous generation that had been circumcised had died in the wilderness (oops, that is another parable/picture for us). :)

 

[Episkopos]

It is the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth

Well I guess there must be a whole lot of different Holy Spirits then since no 2 people can agree on anything.

It's like when Jesus becomes you own personal Saviour (kind of like a rich person has a personal trainer.)

The truth is that almost no one is led by the Spirit. Most people who THINK they are led by the Spirit are just being influenced by A spirit or other that lines up with their way of thinking.

Jesus was not put to death by criminals....but by the most sophisticated law-abiding and religious people. Those who took the bible VERY SERIOUSLY.

And people with personal "holy spirits" don't consider that they are doing the same thing.

But the Holy Spirit is real. And when the Spirit reveals something it goes AGAINST the popular trends...among religious people. It just so happens that people who study the bible the most as we see here...understand it the least...UNLESS they have experience with what the bible is testifying to. You need to KNOW God in order to understand the eternal balance of meaning in the word of God.

...

 

[Lizbeth]

Well I guess there must be a whole lot of different Holy Spirits then since no 2 people can agree on anything.

It's like when Jesus becomes you own personal Saviour (kind of like a rich person has a personal trainer.)

The truth is that almost no one is led by the Spirit. Most people who THINK they are led by the Spirit are just being influenced by A spirit or other that lines up with their way of thinking.

Jesus was not put to death by criminals....but by the most sophisticated law-abiding and religious people. Those who took the bible VERY SERIOUSLY.

And people with personal "holy spirits" don't consider that they are doing the same thing.

But the Holy Spirit is real. And when the Spirit reveals something it goes AGAINST the popular trends...among religious people.It just so happens that people who study the bible the most as we see here...understand it the least...UNLESS they have experience with what the bible is testifying to. You need to KNOW God in order to understand the eternal balance of meaning in the word of God.

Does that mean you don't agree with my post, and I was not hearing from the Holy Spirit with what He showed me about that?

Since you are here, one thing I wanted to mention to you Epi, whenever the opportunity was to arise......how Jesus was touched with the feeling of our infirmities and that is one of the things that qualifies Him to be priest to His people. Empathy - a kind of feminine trait we might say, lol. (Just not to be too soapy about it though.) But someone who is "amazed" at how blind and ignorant people are is completely forgetting how he once was. Even lower walking little me hasn't forgotten what it is like to be lost, and after coming to faith, how I once was blind for many years to so much more of the scriptures than I am now. I mean, I can easily put myself in the shoes of others, and it doesn't amaze me how anyone is, because I understand only too well, and this helps me to have grace for other people.

 

[marks]

This is where I think your interpretation goes beyond what Scripture actually says. You are making the Red Sea represent one stage where someone enters the wilderness, then making the Jordan represent a later entrance into the kingdom and a higher level of holiness. But where does the New Testament actually teach that structure?

Paul does use the Red Sea as an example in 1 Corinthians 10:2 when he says Israel was “baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.” But when you read the whole passage, his point is a warning about unbelief, idolatry, lust, and falling away in the wilderness. He never says the Red Sea represents one level of salvation while crossing the Jordan represents a second entrance into Christ or the kingdom.

Matthew 26:26-29 KJV
26) And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27) And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28) For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
29) But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

What was the meaning of the fourth cup, which Jesus said He would wait until they were all in His Father's kingdom? And what does that mean towards this question?

Much love!

 

[ProDeo]

Since I don't get asked very many good questions I thought to bring this over from the closed thread...

Oh well, a spin off of the blocked thread, and I was so glad it was locked, and I want to keep it that way if you don't mind.

So much has been said, need time to digest.

Sure...you don't seem to treat that with any reverence.



Again, there are different depths to knowing God. I have been to basically all the depths in my 46 years with the Lord.

I'm going to try teaching deeper truth here at the risk of my pearls getting overcome and trampled by pig's feet in the mud...

Sow in righteousness, reap in mercy (Hos 10:12)
Sow to the Spirit, reap eternal life (Gal 6:8)

These are the two levels of knowing God.

Jesus said, I am the door...

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. John 10:9

A potential saint goes IN AND OUT of the Spirit...meaning in and out through the door....finding pasture on BOTH sides of the door. When the seeker is not inside the house of God, he should wait patiently at His door. Draw near to Me and I will draw near to you.

There is pasture in God's realm and in ours. Ps 23 says...He makes me to lie down in green pastures. The pastures here are plural.

So whether present or absent from the Lord we do all to be at least accepted of Him. We are to bear fruit where we are and seek God to be where He is. We collect the dew of the morning until He rains His righteousness on us. The dew springs UP from the earth and the rain falls down from heaven.

As we collect the dew of the morning we are washed clean by the washing of the word. So we set off on our day with a peace derived from being forgiven and cleansed from our sin....from there we experience a peace with God. That is until we get involved in the world whereby our feet get dirty. We lose that peace during the day unless we are careful to stay unspotted from the world. Like a man who looks in a mirror and remembers what he looks like and who he is...in the inner man.

So on this level our peace depends on US drawing near to God. We have perfect peace as long as our hearts are stayed on our God.

But as we go through the door who is Christ, there is no need to collect the dew since it's raining righteousness. The peace with God at that level is beyond human understanding.

Being sinless by being in Christ is an afterthought. You see it more in retrospect....because you are too busy beholding the glory of the Lord.

In my normal walk NOW, I have the peace of a seeker that collects the dew every morning. But when I first fell out of the Spirit, I let myself go. I was selfish. It was easy to be loved by God, but MUCH HARDER to show my love for God by waiting at His door in the obedience of a servant.

Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. Prov 8:34

We love Him because He first loved us. But getting that love out of us is not automatic.

I was talking to a woman yesterday who called me asking for advice. She had walked in the Spirit for a few years (10 years ago) and had left the institution because she saw what the churches have become. But she remained alone. She let herself go. So she is now wanting to get close with God again. So she is like a novice believer...but at a secondary school level.. She needs to APPLY herself in seeking God daily and collecting the dew of the morning. She needs to come back to the door and wait there for Her Master. As a servant. So she is praying about it. We can think that God's love is the same as permissiveness. But a slave of Christ is also to be a slave of righteousness. When we are not in the Lord's presence we shouldn't just become master over our own lives.

Anyway...here are a few thoughts this morning as I collect the morning dew. Righteousness springs up out of the earth...and holiness rains down from heaven

“Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness; let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together. I, the Lord, have created it. Is 45:8

Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the Lord, till he come and rain righteousness upon you. Hos 10:12

Peace.

 

[bdavidc]

If we showed you, I doubt you’d abandon your indoctrinated theology. Frankly, it is VERY obvious from Scripture there is this structure and it is presented in many ways.

1. Paul talks about milk in comparison to meat. What is that all about? Progression.
2. Hebrews compares Moses inferior to another prophet. What is that all about? Progression.
3. Hebrews also talks about how the new covenant is superior to the old covenant in every way. What is that all about? Progression.
4. Fear is the beginning of wisdom but Hebrews informs us that perfect love displaces all fear. You guessed it, more progressive structure.
5. Yes we are to believe in Jesus but that is the beginning. We will be rewarded based on our deeds. What is that all about? progressive structure.
6. 2nd Corinthians talks about a progressive structure or order to the resurrection.
7. Our Lord talks about what you have done to the least AND while John is the greatest prophet, the least in the kingdom is greater than he.
8. Jesus, himself, was perfected through suffering.

Honestly, if you don”t recognize the progression in the Bible, I got to question your reading comprehension. I’m sure I could disregard the above list and compile an even longer one and so could @Episkopos but it wouldn’t alter the trajectory of your ears to hear beyond your indoctrinated theology.

There is no progressive structure in Scripture; Jesus wasted his breath saying over and over to sin no more and to do the will of the Father - because his audience was already there, not sinning and unwaveringly doing the will of the Father (/sarcasmj.

If being “indoctrinated” means that I am bound by the Word of God rather than the teachings of false teachers, then yes, I am indoctrinated by Scripture.

The problem is that you and @Episkopos continue trying to read more into the Bible than it actually says. The Bible teaches growth, maturity, sanctification, obedience, and rewards. Nobody is denying those truths. What you continue to fail to produce is one New Testament passage teaching your Red Sea/Jordan system of one spiritual stage followed by another entrance into the kingdom or some higher salvation.

Milk and meat speak about growth. Hebrews speaks about the superiority of Christ and the New Covenant. Rewards show differences in reward. The order of resurrection shows the order of resurrection. None of those Scriptures prove your doctrine.

That is how false teaching works. Biblical truths are taken and then used to support something that the Bible itself does not teach.

Scripture is also very serious about rejecting God’s Word. Jesus said, “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47). First John 5:10 says, “he that believeth not God hath made him a liar.” A person is not saved merely because he calls himself a Christian if he rejects God’s testimony about His Son.

So spare me the accusation of “indoctrinated theology.” My doctrine must come from Scripture. You still need to show yours from Scripture.

Produce the verse that teaches the Red Sea/Jordan doctrine you and Episkopos keep promoting. Not an analogy, a progression argument, or Morin’s system. Give me the text.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Does that mean you don't agree with my post, and I was not hearing from the Holy Spirit with what He showed me about that?

Since you are here, one thing I wanted to mention to you Epi, whenever the opportunity was to arise......how Jesus was touched with the feeling of our infirmities and that is one of the things that qualifies Him to be priest to His people. Empathy - a kind of feminine trait we might say, lol. (Just not to be too soapy about it though.) But someone who is "amazed" at how blind and ignorant people are is completely forgetting how he once was. Even lower walking little me hasn't forgotten what it is like to be lost, and after coming to faith, how I once was blind for many years to so much more of the scriptures than I am now. I mean, I can easily put myself in the shoes of others, and it doesn't amaze me how anyone is, because I understand only too well, and this helps me to have grace for other people.

You mean empathy like comparing someone to a crocodile?
Ive watched in Here for about a month, a little more I think. You use empathy. You weaponize it against whoever shows it or is guilted into it, if/whenever someone disagrees, won’t confirm you or reflect what you want them to reflect.

 

[shepherdsword]

You do not understand Grace....

Hi Grailhunter,
What is your definition of grace?

 

[Lizbeth]

You mean empathy like comparing someone to a crocodile?
Ive watched in Here for about a month, a little more I think. You use empathy. You weaponize it against whoever shows it or is guilted into it, if/whenever someone disagrees, won’t confirm you or reflect what you want them to reflect.

Awww, don't you worry I've given Episkopos plenty of empathy and grace the last four years.

I would need a translation of the rest that you wrote there....no idea sister.

 

[bdavidc]

It is the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth.........not everything is spoon fed to us by being explicitly stated in the scriptures....there are things we need to harvest/glean out of the word ourselves (with the Spirit's help) as we grow and mature. The new testament says concerning the "church in the wilderness" that those things happened unto them and were written down for our admonition as ensamples. So........my question based on that, is what does that crossing of a second body of water mean to the church? It must mean something. Though it was a literal event for the Israelites, it was written down to serve as a parable for us, the new covenant church.........the Word made flesh speaks to us in parables. It is a picture of something.......and notice the wording where it says they were circumcised "a second time", even though literally that generation had not been circumcised at all until then....the previous generation that had been circumcised had died in the wilderness (oops, that is another parable/picture for us). :)

You say the Holy Spirit leads us into truths that are not plainly stated in Scripture, then use that claim to justify a doctrine Scripture never teaches. That is dangerous ground.

The Holy Spirit inspired Scripture. He does not authorize private doctrines that go beyond what He caused to be written. Jesus said, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth” (John 17:17). Paul said Scripture is able to make the man of God “perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

You insist that the Jordan crossing “must mean something.” But that is an assumption. Paul tells us why those events were recorded: “Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted” (1 Corinthians 10:6). He follows that with warnings about idolatry, fornication, tempting Christ, and murmuring. Those are the lessons Paul draws from Israel’s history. He never says that the Red Sea is one level of salvation while the Jordan is a second entrance into Christ, holiness, or the kingdom.

The same problem appears with “circumcised the second time” in Joshua 5. The context explains that those born in the wilderness had never been circumcised. The passage says nothing about Christians receiving a second spiritual circumcision. You are taking a phrase and reading a doctrine into it that the text does not provide.

There is a difference between recognizing an illustration in Scripture and building doctrine on that illustration. Doctrine comes from what God says, not from hidden meanings we think a picture may contain.

That is why saying “the Spirit showed me” proves nothing by itself. Every teaching must still be tested by the written Word. “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God” (1 John 4:1). The Bereans were commended because they “searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so” (Acts 17:11).

If the Jordan crossing teaches a second entrance into Christ or the kingdom, prove it from the New Testament because it does not teach that. God “hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son” (Colossians 1:13). First Corinthians 12:13 says, “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.”

Those are clear statements of Scripture. A hidden meaning assigned to the Jordan crossing cannot be allowed to contradict them. The Holy Spirit leads us into the truth of Scripture. He does not lead us into doctrines built on the claim that an event “must mean something” when God never gives it that meaning.

 

[bdavidc]

Well I guess there must be a whole lot of different Holy Spirits then since no 2 people can agree on anything.

It's like when Jesus becomes you own personal Saviour (kind of like a rich person has a personal trainer.)

The truth is that almost no one is led by the Spirit. Most people who THINK they are led by the Spirit are just being influenced by A spirit or other that lines up with their way of thinking.

Jesus was not put to death by criminals....but by the most sophisticated law-abiding and religious people. Those who took the bible VERY SERIOUSLY.

And people with personal "holy spirits" don't consider that they are doing the same thing.

But the Holy Spirit is real. And when the Spirit reveals something it goes AGAINST the popular trends...among religious people. It just so happens that people who study the bible the most as we see here...understand it the least...UNLESS they have experience with what the bible is testifying to. You need to KNOW God in order to understand the eternal balance of meaning in the word of God.

Here is the real issue. A man must be born again before he can rightly understand spiritual truth. Jesus said, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3). Paul said, “The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Your posts keep showing the same problem. When the plain meaning of Scripture does not fit what you want to teach, you retreat into “experience,” “spiritual meaning,” and things supposedly revealed beyond what the text actually says. That is not the Holy Spirit teaching you. The Spirit of God does not contradict the Word He inspired.

Romans 8:9 says, “Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” So yes, the issue of being born again matters greatly. Someone without the Spirit cannot claim spiritual insight while repeatedly twisting or dismissing the very Scriptures the Spirit gave.

I cannot see your heart, but I can judge the fruit of what you are teaching, and your teaching gives no biblical reason to believe these supposed insights are coming from the Holy Spirit. What I see is a man continually making doctrine up where Scripture is silent and then blaming other people’s lack of “experience” when they ask you to prove it from the Bible.

That is exactly backwards. The problem is not that Bible-believing Christians understand Scripture too little. The problem is that you make up your own version, which is not what is written.

“Learn in us not to think of men above that which is written” (1 Corinthians 4:6).

If the Holy Spirit is truly teaching you, then prove your doctrine from the Word He inspired. If you cannot, stop attaching His name to your private interpretations.

 

[Grailhunter]

Hi Grailhunter,
What is your definition of grace?

This is complicated....
First off there are a few definitions of Grace between denominations and the personal definitions.....Of course it involves Yeshua's love for us. Favor and forgiveness because of that love....not that we deserve it. But more than a divine emotion I think it is a power that has a very specific and necessary effect on us. But this aspect of it is not explained well in the scriptures. Here is what the scriptures have to say about Grace.

What Does the Bible Say About Grace?

Bible verses about Grace

www.openbible.info

So it is not what Grace is that I am asking, its how does it work and its purpose and its effect on us. There is an unanswered question in the Bible, actually several. But there is this one. God went from separating Himself from humans in the Holy Holies. He loved us but He was violently opposed to sin. Zero tolerance to sin. If someone that had sinned came close to Him, He killed them.

Some of this involves the rules of Heaven and the nature of Yahweh and I would be amiss to try to speculate on them.

We went from God separating Himself from us to making us family. The whole thing is about family. We are sons and daughters of Yahweh. But Yahweh, God the Father was not changed by the New Covenant. Right now He cannot stand sin. If He could tell we have ever sinned He could not have a relationship with us. We have to be perfect for salvation and a relationship with Him to be possible. But we are not perfect. So how could any of this be possible?
This is what the scriptures say about being perfect.....
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. Hebrews 10:14
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. Romans 12:2

And----->For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,.....so normally we could not have a relationship with God. There seems to be quagmire here.

This was one my quests during my walk with Christ.....There is nothing in the scriptures that explains how we could be in such a condition that Yahweh can tolerate us. Yet when Yeshua passed on the cross the veil in the Temple was torn in two. It was torn by Yeshua. We were no longer separated from Yahweh....No need for a Holy of Holies.

So anyway I pondered this for a while and accumulated two opinions on it. I say opinions because it is not in the scriptures. One from a Holy Ghost preacher around a campfire at Bible Camp and the other from a female Professor at Cambridge University during lunch. And I realized that the scriptures mentioned the effect of Grace indirectly.....> For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified

So we were perfected......but we are still not perfect, so how does that work?
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, Revelation 7:9

The effect of Grace illustrated by a white cloak or robe that covers our sinfulness so that Yahweh cannot see our sinfulness. It took me a little time to wrap my head around this. Something to do with the nature of Yahweh.
selectively remembering and seeing....For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more. Scriptures about not remembering our sins......some appearing in prophecy.....

What Does the Bible Say About Your Sins I Will Remember No More?

Bible verses about Your Sins I Will Remember No More

www.openbible.info

The blood of the Lamb of God....Christ....covers our sins and is projected as Grace and functions as a white cloak that covers our sins from the view of Yeshua.
So you have the definition of Grace and the effect of Grace.