What is the "SIGN" of the Son of Man - Poll

[wooddog]

Metaphors require decoding. The decoder (the key) is Jesus. It tells us that in the first few verses of the Book of Revelation.
Now you know what/ who the key is but do you know how to use it?

Love is a consuming fire. That which is not compatible to love, distances and destroys itself.
Love is also like a sword. What is the good of a sword if one doesn't know how to use it?

Metaphors, Jesus will open his mouth and stomp the beast, strangle the false prophet, crush the image of the beast, squeeze the life out all who oppose him, and kick the dragon dead off in his butt. All within the flash of a lightning bolt.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I really do not know what you are trying to show by bringing up this section scripture from the beginning, with the the entire idea of Paul's loss. I'm just trying to accommodate you in describing what I think of this scripture and its meaning in the hope you will find was you are looking for. I'm not searching for anything. I already know what Paul was saying to his audience.

And he only realized his previous works, only after he came to Christ, were a 'loss' for the cause of Christ, and not before. This was his teaching concerning anyone's works of self-righteousness versus works of righteousness from God through Christ. Whether he was doing self-righteous acts as a Pharisee or not and justify these works as being part of the law or not, whether he was even a Pharisee or not, makes no difference. Self-righteous works are always wrong and of no gain if in Christ or not, even if one is under the law or not.

So I agree with your assessment, although I do not know where you are going next with all this, and for what purpose. That's the only puzzling part to me right now.

And then at the end of your post you add an extended thought into the entire discussion by speaking of Paul being saved as if by fire! This now adds to some confusion. As I really do not know what you might mean here.

This is another area of scripture and it does apply to this current scripture, and discussion of self-righteous deeds as works that will always be burned, and his salvation is still secure. Paul has the spirit of God and his Son of course, else without it he would surely be dying in his sins, as every unbeliever.

Miscommunication on my part. I also couldn’t understand what you were saying or where you were going with it. Let’s see if I can explain it more clearly. I connected Paul’s loss of all things to win Christ to the below loss…

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. [11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; [13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

where I thought you were correcting, taking me around on a journey through what exactly was the meaning of “loss”. I couldn’t understand where or what part you were disagreeing with…I still wanted to read what you had to contribute. I get it’s not on topic, but I only stayed with it because it seemed you obviously disagreed but I couldn’t find exactly where you disagreed. The more I tried, the more confused I became. Now the whole conversation seems pointless. Like we are dancing around going no where. I didn’t mean to derail the thread. I’ve just been struggling again with who God is and with some things, so I went off on a tangent I thought would help but it didn’t. Thanks for putting up with me.

 

[akelch]

I really appreciate everyone contribution to this poll. I have enjoyed reading everyone response.
I apologize for my lack of participation in the discussions. My free time has been limited lately.
I have been studying this subject for some time and believe it to be a Astronomical "sign". Just like the "star" that the Magi followed at Christ's birth, I believe this "sign" is using astronomical movements of the planets with relation to fixed constellations.
In verse 27 Christ gives us a small description of what the sign is, and it is astronomical.

"27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Even though this verse does not mention the "sign" of the Son of Man, I believe it to be one and the same. The description of "lightning" (which is a sky event) and the description of "east to west" are clues that the sign is a astronomical in nature because of the movement of the stars in the sky from east to west.
I also believe that John wrote about the sign of the Son of Man in Revelation 1 in his description of the "voice" that he heard speak to him. John also made reference to Matthew 24 and the Olivet discourse in verse Rev. 1:7 to tie the 2 events together.

"7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

So if we can decipher John's description of the astronomical event that he describes in Rev 1:11-20 we can begin to know when these events happened.

 

[Marty fox]

I really appreciate everyone contribution to this poll. I have enjoyed reading everyone response.
I apologize for my lack of participation in the discussions. My free time has been limited lately.
I have been studying this subject for some time and believe it to be a Astronomical "sign". Just like the "star" that the Magi followed at Christ's birth, I believe this "sign" is using astronomical movements of the planets with relation to fixed constellations.
In verse 27 Christ gives us a small description of what the sign is, and it is astronomical.

"27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Even though this verse does not mention the "sign" of the Son of Man, I believe it to be one and the same. The description of "lightning" (which is a sky event) and the description of "east to west" are clues that the sign is a astronomical in nature because of the movement of the stars in the sky from east to west.
I also believe that John wrote about the sign of the Son of Man in Revelation 1 in his description of the "voice" that he heard speak to him. John also made reference to Matthew 24 and the Olivet discourse in verse Rev. 1:7 to tie the 2 events together.

"7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

So if we can decipher John's description of the astronomical event that he describes in Rev 1:11-20 we can begin to know when these events happened.

I believe the lighting sign to be that it will happen as fast as lightning

 

[Timtofly]

Not if it’s literal stars falling ….

The stars falling are the literal angels coming to earth. Not the virtual "balls of gas" people think are the stars. Jesus explains in Matthew 13 and Matthew 25, the angels are coming to earth.

The literal host of heaven, the angels proclaimed the birth of Jesus to the shepherds. Then went back to shining as stars.

The sign of the Second Coming is the stars arriving on the earth with Jesus.

 

[akelch]

I believe the lighting sign to be that it will happen as fast as lightning

Yes, that could be. Christ warned to be on guard because it will come quickly. But he also accompanied it with "from the east to the west" which is also the path stars travel through the sky as the earth rotates.

 

[akelch]

The stars falling are the literal angels coming to earth. Not the virtual "balls of gas" people think are the stars. Jesus explains in Matthew 13 and Matthew 25, the angels are coming to earth.

The literal host of heaven, the angels proclaimed the birth of Jesus to the shepherds. Then went back to shining as stars.

The sign of the Second Coming is the stars arriving on the earth with Jesus.

"Angels" or Angelos means messenger in the Greek.
And "stars" is a generic term. It can be used for meteors, planets (wondering stars), comets, and fixed stars. I have found that it can even be used for a whole constellation when expressed as a "great" star.

Rev 1:20
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The stars falling are the literal angels coming to earth. Not the virtual "balls of gas" people think are the stars. Jesus explains in Matthew 13 and Matthew 25, the angels are coming to earth.

The literal host of heaven, the angels proclaimed the birth of Jesus to the shepherds. Then went back to shining as stars.

The sign of the Second Coming is the stars arriving on the earth with Jesus.

I can’t ignore where the word shows “the stars falling”

“And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven, and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child,” (Revelation 12:4).

• Isaiah 66:4-7 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not. [5] Hear the word of the LORD, you that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed. [6] A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies. [7] Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

To me the tail drew a third of the stars of heavens -swept away —and cast them down.

Still think it connects to Luke 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall (casting down) and rising again(lifting up) of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

 

[APAK]

Miscommunication on my part. I also couldn’t understand what you were saying or where you were going with it. Let’s see if I can explain it more clearly. I connected Paul’s loss of all things to win Christ to the below loss…

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. [11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; [13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

where I thought you were correcting, taking me around on a journey through what exactly was the meaning of “loss”. I couldn’t understand where or what part you were disagreeing with…I still wanted to read what you had to contribute. I get it’s not on topic, but I only stayed with it because it seemed you obviously disagreed but I couldn’t find exactly where you disagreed. The more I tried, the more confused I became. Now the whole conversation seems pointless. Like we are dancing around going no where. I didn’t mean to derail the thread. I’ve just been struggling again with who God is and with some things, so I went off on a tangent I thought would help but it didn’t. Thanks for putting up with me.

You and I and some others, are at least honest, truthful and caring enough to address each others writings and the thoughts behind them. We want to get it 'all right' so both understand each other and then this becomes a common foundation or basis to pursue other things. And this does not mean we have to agree with everything the other person says either...

 

[Davidpt]

I really appreciate everyone contribution to this poll. I have enjoyed reading everyone response.
I apologize for my lack of participation in the discussions. My free time has been limited lately.
I have been studying this subject for some time and believe it to be a Astronomical "sign". Just like the "star" that the Magi followed at Christ's birth, I believe this "sign" is using astronomical movements of the planets with relation to fixed constellations.
In verse 27 Christ gives us a small description of what the sign is, and it is astronomical.

"27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Even though this verse does not mention the "sign" of the Son of Man, I believe it to be one and the same. The description of "lightning" (which is a sky event) and the description of "east to west" are clues that the sign is a astronomical in nature because of the movement of the stars in the sky from east to west.
I also believe that John wrote about the sign of the Son of Man in Revelation 1 in his description of the "voice" that he heard speak to him. John also made reference to Matthew 24 and the Olivet discourse in verse Rev. 1:7 to tie the 2 events together.

"7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

So if we can decipher John's description of the astronomical event that he describes in Rev 1:11-20 we can begin to know when these events happened.

I have to wonder if the sign of the Son of man can maybe be understood in the following sense?

Ppl are sitting at a bus stop awaiting the arrival of a bus. One person asks, shouldn't that bus have already arrived by now? Do you see any sign of it anywhere?

Then 5 minutes later the sign of it appears several blocks away since they can now see it approaching.

 

[The PuP]

It is really quite simple:

Rev 12:1 BBE And a great sign [G4592, semeion] was seen in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
Rev 12:2-5 BBE 2 And she was with child; and she gave a cry, in the pains of childbirth. 3 And there was seen another sign in heaven; a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven crowns. 4 And his tail was pulling a third part of the stars of heaven down to the earth, and the dragon took his place before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when the birth had taken place he might put an end to her child. 5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who was to have rule over all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was taken up to God and to his high seat.

Most people miss this because the KJV says wonder, instead of sign.

Mat 24:30 KJV And then shall appear the sign [G4592, semeion] of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

It is the time when Jesus will leave the Father's side, placing all enemies under his feet. When he returns with the saints, at the parousia, he will be given the kingdom, to rule with a rod of iron over all the nations. The sign is actually the new Jerusalem surrounded by the 12 angels of Rev 21:12.

Dan 7:14 KJV And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Rev 11:15 KJV And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Psa 110:1-5 KJV 1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. 4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. 5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

Heb 1:13 KJV But to which of the angels said he [GOD] at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Blessings

 

[ewq1938]

Metaphors, Jesus will open his mouth and stomp the beast, strangle the false prophet, crush the image of the beast, squeeze the life out all who oppose him, and kick the dragon dead off in his butt. All within the flash of a lightning bolt.

He doesn't kill the dragon/satan when he returns. Satan is cast into the pit for a thousand years, Rev 20.

 

[grafted branch]

So if we can decipher John's description of the astronomical event that he describes in Rev 1:11-20 we can begin to know when these events happened.

I personally don’t think the sign is an astronomical event that can be deciphered but here’s what I think about the voice John hears behind him.

In Revelation 1:10 John was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard a voice behind him. In Revelation 1:12 John turns to see the voice, and being turned he sees the seven candlesticks.

The layout of the holy place in the tabernacle was, as you enter it, the table of showbread was on the right, the golden candlesticks (menorah) was on the left and the altar of incense was straight ahead.

So in Revelation 1:10 John was at the table of showbread when he hears the voice behind him at the candlesticks. The priests placed 12 loaves of unleavened bread on the table which represented the 12 tribes. The bread was removed every sabbath (Lord’s day), eaten by the priest inside the Holy Place, then replaced with new loaves.

Hebrews 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

I think John being in the Spirit on the Lord’s day was him being in the heavenly tabernacle, which I don’t think can be seen by us, astronomically speaking. But if you have some insights on how these things can be astronomically observed and deciphered then I would be at least interested in looking at it.

 

[wooddog]

He doesn't kill the dragon/satan when he returns. Satan is cast into the pit for a thousand years, Rev 20.

You missed the metaphor and yes you are correct.

 

[akelch]

I personally don’t think the sign is an astronomical event that can be deciphered but here’s what I think about the voice John hears behind him.

In Revelation 1:10 John was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard a voice behind him. In Revelation 1:12 John turns to see the voice, and being turned he sees the seven candlesticks.

The layout of the holy place in the tabernacle was, as you enter it, the table of showbread was on the right, the golden candlesticks (menorah) was on the left and the altar of incense was straight ahead.

So in Revelation 1:10 John was at the table of showbread when he hears the voice behind him at the candlesticks. The priests placed 12 loaves of unleavened bread on the table which represented the 12 tribes. The bread was removed every sabbath (Lord’s day), eaten by the priest inside the Holy Place, then replaced with new loaves.

Hebrews 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

I think John being in the Spirit on the Lord’s day was him being in the heavenly tabernacle, which I don’t think can be seen by us, astronomically speaking. But if you have some insights on how these things can be astronomically observed and deciphered then I would be at least interested in looking at it.

Very interest insight. I agree there are some verbiage in John's writing that symbolized the Tabernacle. But the description John givs goes farther then "tabernacle" references.
- right hand with 7 stars
- 2 edge sword from his mouth
- face like the sun

These are astronomical descriptions.
Orion is one of the large constellations in the night sky. It was referred to as the "Mighty One". The right hand of Orion is just below the "ecliptic" (which is the path that the sun, moon, and planet travel). These are the 7 stars (wondering stars) that are in his right hand. The original constellation of Orion was made up with 7 stars. These are the 7 lampstands (churches) that make up the body. As in the churches make up the body of Christ. The sun passes over the top of Orion's head. Even the "golden girdle" is a reference to Orion's belt which was spoken of by God in Job 38:31.
I have also found a connection between Revelation, Daniel, and Matthew that points to the constellation Orion as the sign of the Son of Man.
But the Constellation alone is of no use in determining a particular time (aka sign). It has to be paired with something else to make it unusual enough for a sign.

I can explain more if you are interested.

 

[Davidpt]

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


I wonder what this looks like when being fulfilled? Does it have anything to do with this?---then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven.

In my mind, the above verses involve the bodily return of Christ in the end of this age. In my mind as well, so does what is recorded in Matthew 24:30.

 

[Davidpt]

Very interest insight. I agree there are some verbiage in John's writing that symbolized the Tabernacle. But the description John givs goes farther then "tabernacle" references.
- right hand with 7 stars
- 2 edge sword from his mouth
- face like the sun

These are astronomical descriptions.
Orion is one of the large constellations in the night sky. It was referred to as the "Mighty One". The right hand of Orion is just below the "ecliptic" (which is the path that the sun, moon, and planet travel). These are the 7 stars (wondering stars) that are in his right hand. The original constellation of Orion was made up with 7 stars. These are the 7 lampstands (churches) that make up the body. As in the churches make up the body of Christ. The sun passes over the top of Orion's head. Even the "golden girdle" is a reference to Orion's belt which was spoken of by God in Job 38:31.
I have also found a connection between Revelation, Daniel, and Matthew that points to the constellation Orion as the sign of the Son of Man.
But the Constellation alone is of no use in determining a particular time (aka sign). It has to be paired with something else to make it unusual enough for a sign.

I can explain more if you are interested.

View attachment 45334

And what about those of us that have no interest in astronomy, thus are basically clueless about those things? How are these alleged astronomical signs useful to us one way or the other?

 

[quietthinker]

I believe the lighting sign to be that it will happen as fast as lightning

As the lightning SHINES from east to west. It's referring to its shinning not it's speed Marty

 

[akelch]

And what about those of us that have no interest in astronomy, thus are basically clueless about those things? How are these alleged astronomical signs useful to us one way or the other?

I guess they wouldn't be useful at all. But I don't think that we were the attended audience.

 

[grafted branch]

These are astronomical descriptions.
Orion is one of the large constellations in the night sky. It was referred to as the "Mighty One". The right hand of Orion is just below the "ecliptic" (which is the path that the sun, moon, and planet travel). These are the 7 stars (wondering stars) that are in his right hand. The original constellation of Orion was made up with 7 stars. These are the 7 lampstands (churches) that make up the body. As in the churches make up the body of Christ. The sun passes over the top of Orion's head. Even the "golden girdle" is a reference to Orion's belt which was spoken of by God in Job 38:31.
I have also found a connection between Revelation, Daniel, and Matthew that points to the constellation Orion as the sign of the Son of Man.
But the Constellation alone is of no use in determining a particular time (aka sign). It has to be paired with something else to make it unusual enough for a sign.

I took a look at Orion in the Bible and Orion <3685> kesil, is found in Isaiah 13:10, Amos 5:8, Job 9:9, and Job 38:31.



Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations<3685> thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

These verses in particular do seem to tie Orion with the Matthew 24:29 statement of the sun being darkened, the moon not giving her light, the stars falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shaken.

I am interested in what else you might have to say, although I will admit I am skeptical. You say the constellation has to be paired with something else, would this be something like a comet that passes through Orion as viewed from earth?