What is the sign of the Son of Man?

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Zao is life

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When you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place . . . did they see this?

Much love!
I agree with you regarding the sign of the Son of Man seen in the heavens and about the Holy Spirit coming upon the believers at Pentecost being the sign that the Son had returned to the Father, but I agree with Marty regarding Rome and the AoD. I believe Daniel 9:27 was fulfilled in the first century. I don't believe the cut 'n paste job that Dispensationalists and others do with Daniel 9:27 is real.
 
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Marty fox

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Outside Jerusalem is the holy place? But still, I thought they were dead before then. No?

Much love!

Yes outside the city was still considered Jerusalem

Revelation 11:8
8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

Jesus was crucified outside the city

Some were dead and some were not
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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The Question in the title was asked of Me By @marks, And i thought it would be worth a post here to get some other thoughts.

Here was my response to this Question to Him:

"We do not know exactly what that sign is but it is the sixth seal. I can surmise that it is the sky rolling up like a scroll, which is the one thing that differs from the Matthew 24:29-30 account and the Revelation 6:12-14. Read the two passages as parallel accounts to see this, Below.

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (Revelation 6:12-14)

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:29-30)"

My Question to all of You is what is this sign? Some other verses to consider are Acts of the Apostles 1:11, Which is the ascension verse.

If you read Matthew chapter 24:1-29 you will see the setting for this statement? On doing so, you will find that it forms part of Jesus’ great prophecy on the “conclusion of the system of things” (end of the world) and the time for announcing “good news of the kingdom” and its establishment. This gives us the key to understand “the sign of the Son of man.”

At Matthew 24 verse 15 Jesus had just referred to the prophet Daniel, and from the expressions he now used with reference to the “sign,” there is no doubt that Jesus was referring back to the vision recorded at Daniel 7:13,14: “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulersohip is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.”

The “Ancient of Days” is the God of eternity, Jehovah. Psalms 90:2 He is the Universal Sovereign, the source of all right to rule. The one “like a son of man” is Christ Jesus, as he himself indicated at John 3:13-15 and Luke 22:66-69. What is shown to be taking place here that Jesus could refer to as “the sign of the Son of man”? It is the act of God’s Son in receiving authority from his Sovereign Father to rule in an everlasting kingdom. This event brought the establishment or “birth” of his kingly rule. Revelation 12:1,2,5,10. This event takes place, not in the skies of earth’s atmosphere, but in the invisible heavens of Jehovah God’s presence. At the due time, God’s Son, who had been waiting at his Father’s right hand, would enter into full regnal power and authority, obeying his Father’s command: “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.” Psalms 110:1,2; Hebrews 10:12,13. Other Bible prophecies and the facts in fulfillment such as the times of the gentiles ending in1914 C.E. show that this event to have taken place in the year 1914 C.E. so Jesus Christ invisible Second presence began in 1914 C.E. sometime.

Why, then, did Jesus say the sign would “appear” in heaven and that all the tribes of the earth would “see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory”? Why have we not seen Christ Jesus in a glorious return? Is that not to be expected in view of the statement at Revelation 1:7: “Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him”?

A helpful comment in this regard is found in A Greek-English Lexicon by Liddell and Scott. Concerning the Greek word for “see” used at Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7 their lexicon (Volume 2, page 1245a) lists one of the meanings of the see as “Metaphorically, of mental sight, to discern, perceive.” Yes, the Bible speaks not only of seeing with our eyes but also of seeing with our mind and with our heart. Just think about the words at Romans 1:20 which tell us: “His invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship.” Note that with the mind we can perceive or see things that are positively invisible to the human eyes, in this case God’s invisible qualities.

So, with regard to “the sign of the Son of man,” we ask, With what eyes did Daniel first see this prophetic sign? Was it not in “visions of his head” and thus with the mind’s eye rather than the fleshly eye? Daniel 7:1 It was in a similar vision that the apostle John was transported far into the future and could say: “I saw, and, look! a white cloud, and upon the cloud someone seated like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.” Revelation 14:14 Since “the sign of the Son of man” took place in the heavenly courts, it is only with the ‘eyes of the heart of appreciation’ that “every eye will see” this installed king, Christ Jesus. Ephesians 1:18

What about the use of “clouds” in all these texts? Would that not place the “sign” within earth’s atmosphere, where literal clouds form and float and therefore within the range of human eyesight? When we take another look at Daniel chapter 7 where the “sign” is first presented. We see Daniel’s use of symbolisms by which world governments are represented as “beasts” that come up out of the “sea”? Daniel 7:2,3. In Daniel 7:13 he uses “clouds” in a figurative way to contrast with the symbolic “sea” and thus to show the heavenly situation where the authority is given to the “Son of man” whereby he rules and crushes the beastly governments that the sea of humanity has spawned. We can Compare Revelation 13:1-3 and Revelation 17:15.

In the Bible, clouds are the accompaniments of the “power
and great glory” Jesus mentioned at Matthew 24:30, and also are symbolic of invisibility. 1Kings 8:10-12. At Mount Sinai it was in clouds and with thunder and lightning that Jehovah God “met” with Moses, and neither Moses nor the people below saw God with their fleshly eyes. Exodus 20:21; 24:18; 33:20; Deuteronomy 4:11,12. Likewise, when God’s Son, Christ Jesus, took leave of his apostles and began his ascension to the heavens of God’s presence, the record at Acts 1:9 tells us: “While they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their vision.” The cloud thus cut him off from their literal eyesight but, on the day of Pentecost, Jehovah God opened their understanding to perceive that Jesus had ascended even to God’s right hand. Acts 2:33-35. Since the angels, standing by at the time Christ began his ascension, told the disciples that Jesus would “come thus in the same manner,” we can be certain that his ‘coming in the clouds’ will be invisible to fleshly eyes and be perceived only with the ‘eyes of the heart.’ Like his Father, Jesus now “dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see.” Acts 1:11; 1Timothy 6:15,16
 

marks

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Not quite

Matthew 24:8
8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
And compare to the statement in Luke. "But before all these . . .", and then He prophesies Jerusalem surrounded by armies.

Much love!
 

marks

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Yes outside the city was still considered Jerusalem

Revelation 11:8
8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

Jesus was crucified outside the city

Some were dead and some were not
I wasn't asking if outside Jerusalem were "still Jerusalem", rather, where do we see in the Bible the hills around Jerusalem being identified as "the holy place"?

Much love!
 

Marty fox

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And compare to the statement in Luke. "But before all these . . .", and then He prophesies Jerusalem surrounded by armies.

Much love!

The before all this was talking about the Jewish persecution of the church which we read about in the book of Acts which did happen before 70AD
 
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marks

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The before all this was talking about the Jewish persecution of the church which we read about in the book of Acts which did happen before 70AD

Is that so? Luke records Jesus' prophecy of persecution in the Apostolic times, leading up to 70AD, and these before the birth pangs. Matthew records the persecutions to come after the birth pangs, and leading up the AoD.

The two events even end differently, one leading to the scattering of the Jews, the other to their regathering. They have different description, the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, which is immediately recognizable as referring to an idol or false god standing in the temple. And Jerusalem surrounded by armies.

I've come very much to realize, largely in my participation on this forum, that probably more than not interpret the Bible less strictly than I do. But I know no other way. I believe what it says, and if it says AoD here, and Jerusalem surrounded by armies their, I simply cannot discount this difference, without something very particular, in the Bible, which tells me they are the same.

I see all these diffenences, and the final conclusion makes wonderful sense, it fits with everything else I read about these things. And in looking at the other Scriptures in this same way, I find the same things. All my questions are answered, nothing doesn't fit, doesn't make sense. Not that I'm saying I understand all passages in the Bible, but to say that whenever something seems to conflict, I find the answer is in letting each say exactly what the words say, and it always seems to resolve the matter.

Much love!
 

Marty fox

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Is that so? Luke records Jesus' prophecy of persecution in the Apostolic times, leading up to 70AD, and these before the birth pangs. Matthew records the persecutions to come after the birth pangs, and leading up the AoD.

The two events even end differently, one leading to the scattering of the Jews, the other to their regathering. They have different description, the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, which is immediately recognizable as referring to an idol or false god standing in the temple. And Jerusalem surrounded by armies.

I've come very much to realize, largely in my participation on this forum, that probably more than not interpret the Bible less strictly than I do. But I know no other way. I believe what it says, and if it says AoD here, and Jerusalem surrounded by armies their, I simply cannot discount this difference, without something very particular, in the Bible, which tells me they are the same.

I see all these diffenences, and the final conclusion makes wonderful sense, it fits with everything else I read about these things. And in looking at the other Scriptures in this same way, I find the same things. All my questions are answered, nothing doesn't fit, doesn't make sense. Not that I'm saying I understand all passages in the Bible, but to say that whenever something seems to conflict, I find the answer is in letting each say exactly what the words say, and it always seems to resolve the matter.

Much love!

You have to read them in the shoes of the people it was written too. Matthew wrote to the Jews so they would of realized what the AOD was because of the events Daniel wrote about.

Luke was written to gentiles who would of needed to know what the AOD was

Read Matthew 24 Mark 13 and Luke 17 & 21 and you will see that they are all the same events
 

Marty fox

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What part specifically?

Much love!
The AOD Daniel spoke about was the foreign rule of Antiochus Epehanies who ended up desecrating the temple but this time there would be no Judas the hammer Maccabees to save them
 

marks

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The AOD Daniel spoke about was the foreign rule of Antiochus Epehanies who ended up desecrating the temple but this time there would be no Judas the hammer Maccabees to save them

Did you have a particular passage in mind?

Much love!
 

Marty fox

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Did you have a particular passage in mind?

Much love!

Daniel 11:31-32
31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. 32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.

If you read the book of Maccabees its way more detail
 

Truth7t7

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Newsflash: The church has been flawed for nearly 2,000 years.
Newsflash: In some verses/places the KJV exposes the use of certain words as flawed in some English translations.
Newsflash: In some verses/places other English translations expose the KJV's use of certain words as flawed.
Newsflash: The church's understanding of all things pertaining to Biblical prophecy is flawed. Some get it right here and wrong there. Those who live in denial of facts get it wrong almost everywhere.
Times and translations haven't been improving in the past 400 years, it's getting worse

2 Timothy 3:13KJV
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
 

Zao is life

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Times and translations haven't been improving in the past 400 years, it's getting worse

2 Timothy 3:13KJV
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
and the saints will be falsely accused daily - not only by the world, but also by other saints.
 

Truth7t7

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The ones taken in the flood were taken in judgement do you agree with that?

Matt 24:40-41
That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

The above verses are clearly written in the same text "taken"

Here we see the same text below

Luke 17:34-35
34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36]

Then where did Jesus say that they were taken?

Luke 17:37
37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.

They were taken in judgement

I think that anybody reading this will agree with me if not then I give up banging my head against he wall
You have it backwards, the ones taken in the ark were taken away from judgement, just as the ones taken from the bed & field in the rapture will be taken away from judgement

Marty it appears you see things, with the intent of validating 70AD fulfillment
 

Iconoclast

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I've never seen this taught in the Bible, can you show me this in the text?

My reading yesterday in Acts 2 was that the sign Jesus had returned to the Father was His sending the Holy Spirit.

Much love!
This has been answered in the other thread.