What is the sign of the Son of Man?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
12,061
3,781
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Only Peter James Andrew and John were there. They all didn’t live to see all of the events but they saw many of them.

The purpose was to warn the Christians living in Jerusalem to flee when the Roman army first arrived and then retreated and that happened in history once again proving the interpretation and that Jesus was God
How do you account for the "Parallel" teaching of Matthew 24 seen in Luke 21:25-28 below?

(Lift Up You Heads; For Your Redemption Draweth Nigh)?

This Wasnt Fulfilled In 70AD, Its The Future Day Of Redemption At The Second Coming

Ephesians 1:13-14KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
12,061
3,781
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But you haven’t unless I missed your reply

So how do you explain that the temple and city were destroyed within that generation like Jesus said it would be? He did say that not one stone would not be on another when they had just looked at the temple?

You might not like or agree with that below, but your question has been answered

The temple being destroyed in Matthew 24:2 was symbolic of the Lord's death and resurrection, and yes his disciples remembered what he had said about the temples destruction

At the death of Jesus Christ, the veil in the temple was rent, the temple was symbolically destroyed, and after the resurrection this temple was replaced, by the temple of the Lord's body

Yes Preterism takes the literal second coming seen in Matthew 24:29-31, and symbolizes this into a "Coming Judgement" or whatever upon Israel

Matthew 27:50:51KJV
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
 

Marty fox

Well-Known Member
Jun 1, 2021
2,847
1,064
113
55
Vancouver
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
How do you account for the "Parallel" teaching of Matthew 24 seen in Luke 21:25-28 below?

(Lift Up You Heads; For Your Redemption Draweth Nigh)?

This Wasnt Fulfilled In 70AD, Its The Future Day Of Redemption At The Second Coming

Ephesians 1:13-14KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Because when they started to happened the Christians knew that they would be able to flee the city and escape the persecution and destruction of the city.

Read what Luke 21 was about

Luke 21:20-24
“When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
 

Iconoclast

Active Member
Jul 27, 2021
647
190
43
71
Hoschton Ga.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
1]The location spoken of is Heaven, not just the sky.

2]It is not the sign in Heaven, but the Son of Man who is in Heaven.


The point is simply that this great judgment upon Israel, the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, will be the sign that Jesus Christ is enthroned in Heaven at The Fathers right hand, ruling over the nations and bringing vengeance upon His enemies.

The Divinely ordained cataclysm of A.D. 70 revealed that Christ had taken the Kingdom from Israel and given it to the Church;
the desolation of the temple was the final sign that God had deserted it. and was dwelling in a new Temple, the Church.

David Chilton , Paradise Restored,100
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marty fox

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
12,061
3,781
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Because when they started to happened the Christians knew that they would be able to flee the city and escape the persecution and destruction of the city.

Read what Luke 21 was about

Luke 21:20-24
“When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
You avoided the direct question, with diversion in Christian's being warned to flee the city, Marty why do you run from the simple question below?

How do you account for the "Parallel" teaching of Matthew 24 seen in Luke 21:25-28 below, I'll make the question Mark's real big on bold red directly below?

(Lift Up You Heads; For Your Redemption Draweth Nigh)????

This Wasnt Fulfilled In 70AD, Its The Future Day Of Redemption At The Second Coming

Ephesians 1:13-14KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
 

Marty fox

Well-Known Member
Jun 1, 2021
2,847
1,064
113
55
Vancouver
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
1]The location spoken of is Heaven, not just the sky.

2]It is not the sign in Heaven, but the Son of Man who is in Heaven.


The point is simply that this great judgment upon Israel, the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, will be the sign that Jesus Christ is enthroned in Heaven at The Fathers right hand, ruling over the nations and bringing vengeance upon His enemies.

The Divinely ordained cataclysm of A.D. 70 revealed that Christ had taken the Kingdom from Israel and given it to the Church;
the desolation of the temple was the final sign that God had deserted it. and was dwelling in a new Temple, the Church.

David Chilton , Paradise Restored,100

Amen and many would of remembered Jesus words and realized the grave mistake that they made
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life

Marty fox

Well-Known Member
Jun 1, 2021
2,847
1,064
113
55
Vancouver
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
You avoided the direct question, with diversion

No I didn’t the lifting up the head was to see the first Roman army come and they would of known that they would retreat so that was there redemption drawings near

But you still have avoided the questions about these historic events happening within that generation like Jesus said that they would
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life

Marty fox

Well-Known Member
Jun 1, 2021
2,847
1,064
113
55
Vancouver
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
You avoided the direct question, with diversion in Christian's being warned to flee the city, Marty why do you run from the simple question below?

How do you account for the "Parallel" teaching of Matthew 24 seen in Luke 21:25-28 below, I'll make the question Mark's real big on bold red directly below?

(Lift Up You Heads; For Your Redemption Draweth Nigh)????

This Wasnt Fulfilled In 70AD, Its The Future Day Of Redemption At The Second Coming

Ephesians 1:13-14KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

We are supposed to be fellow Christians here debating in love and grace to each other there is no need to be condescending as we are on the same side
 

Ziggy

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2020
10,526
10,047
113
60
Maine, USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Question in the title was asked of Me By @marks, And i thought it would be worth a post here to get some other thoughts.

Here was my response to this Question to Him:

"We do not know exactly what that sign is but it is the sixth seal. I can surmise that it is the sky rolling up like a scroll, which is the one thing that differs from the Matthew 24:29-30 account and the Revelation 6:12-14. Read the two passages as parallel accounts to see this, Below.

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (Revelation 6:12-14)

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:29-30)"

My Question to all of You is what is this sign? Some other verses to consider are Acts of the Apostles 1:11, Which is the ascension verse.

First verse popped out:
Luk 11:30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.

Remember Revelations says that God is showing John what has been, what is, and what will be.

But Jonah didn't come with the clouds of heaven with power and great glory did he?
And Jonah only went to Nineveh not to all the tribes of the earth.

So if Jonah was a sign to Nineveh, What is the Lord's sign to the world.
It would be the same message right?
Repent for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Ot was that the Last Trumpet and we are on auto-pilot?

I have a feeling we're going to find out,
God Bless
Hugs
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
12,061
3,781
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No I didn’t the lifting up the head was to see the first Roman army come and they would of known that they would retreat so that was there redemption drawings near

But you still have avoided the questions about these historic events happening within that generation like Jesus said that they would
Marty the presented eschatology is a far fetched fairy tale in symbolism, all to maintain 70AD fulfillment

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Marty, Revelation 1:7 Teaches The World Will See Jesus Return In The Clouds Of Heaven, Do You Have A Symbolic Representaion For This to?

Revelation 1:7KJV
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


Recap:

Matthew 24:30 You have (They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming) As A Symbolic Judgement Upon Israel

Matthew 24:31 You Have (Angel's gathering the elect from the ends of the heavens) as a Symbolic Angel's sparing and saving people from the Roman armies

Luke 21:28 You Have (Lift Up Your Heads; For Your Redemption Draweth Nigh) as a Symbolic seeing armies and retreating to safety


 
Last edited:

Marty fox

Well-Known Member
Jun 1, 2021
2,847
1,064
113
55
Vancouver
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Marty the presented eschatology is a far fetched fairy tale in symbolism, all to maintain 70AD fulfillment

Recap:

Matthew 24:30 You have (They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming) As A Symbolic Judgement Upon Israel

Matthew 24:31 You Have (Angel's gathering the elect from the ends of the heavens) as Angel's sparing and saving people

Luke 21:28 You Have (Lift Up You Heads; For Your Redemption Draweth Nigh) as seeing armies and retreating to safety


Who do the angels gather? The elect

Who is the days shortened for? The elect

Thus the elect are saved from being killed.

Out of 1.2 million people in Jerusalem during the seige only 97 000 survived so if the days weren’t shortened nobody would of survived to tell the story

If you think that the angels gathering is the rapture then why are they told to flee or pray that it won’t happen in the winter or on the sabbath

Maybe I have missed your answers of the events happening within that generation sorry if I did but if you answered them could you please repost them?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
12,061
3,781
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Who do the angels gather? The elect

Who is the days shortened for? The elect

Thus the elect are saved from being killed.
Your claim opposes harmony in parallel scriptural teachings

Matthew 24:31KJV
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 13:37-39KJV
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
12,061
3,781
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If you think that the angels gathering is the rapture then why are they told to flee or pray that it won’t happen in the winter or on the sabbath

Maybe I have missed your answers of the events happening within that generation sorry if I did but if you answered them could you please repost them?
If the scripture below isnt talking about the rapture, what is it teaching, one will be taken and the other left?

Symbolic for Roman armies taking prisoners?

Matthew 24:40-42KJV
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
12,061
3,781
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
First verse popped out:
Luk 11:30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.

Remember Revelations says that God is showing John what has been, what is, and what will be.

But Jonah didn't come with the clouds of heaven with power and great glory did he?
And Jonah only went to Nineveh not to all the tribes of the earth.

So if Jonah was a sign to Nineveh, What is the Lord's sign to the world.
It would be the same message right?
Repent for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Ot was that the Last Trumpet and we are on auto-pilot?

I have a feeling we're going to find out,
God Bless
Hugs
Hi Ziggy, Hope All Is Well!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ziggy

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
12,061
3,781
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We are supposed to be fellow Christians here debating in love and grace to each other there is no need to be condescending as we are on the same side
Marty I consider you a saved Christian, not condescending to any brother or sister

Just exposing the errors of Preterism, just as the errors of dispensationalism
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marty fox

Marty fox

Well-Known Member
Jun 1, 2021
2,847
1,064
113
55
Vancouver
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada

Matthew 24:36-41
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Notice that in verse 39 it says the flood took them away? In Noah’s day it was better to be left than taken. Now notice in verses 40 & 41 that the people were also taken?

Now read what Luke wrote below

Luke 21:30-37
30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36]



37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

Notice that the deciples asked in verse 37 where the people were taken? Then Jesus told them they were killed thus they were taken in judgement
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
12,061
3,781
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Matthew 24:36-41
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Notice that in verse 39 it says the flood took them away? In Noah’s day it was better to be left than taken. Now notice in verses 40 & 41 that the people were also taken?

Now read what Luke wrote below

Luke 21:30-37
30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36]



37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

Notice that the deciples asked in verse 37 where the people were taken? Then Jesus told them they were killed thus they were taken in judgement
In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Marty you desperately try to validate 70AD fulfillment, as the very verses you present are the second coming, the whole chapter is dedicated to this, and no it's not a judgement upon Israel in 70AD

Matthew 24:30 & Revelation 1:7 is the same event of the second coming seen below, the book of Revelation was written in 95-96AD, this is just one more hole in the boat of Preterism

Matthew 24:30KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 1:7KJV
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

When Was the Book of Revelation Written?
By Wayne Jackson

Traditionally, the book of Revelation has been dated near the end of the first century, around A.D. 96. Some writers, however, have advanced the preterist (from a Latin word meaning “that which is past”) view, contending that the Apocalypse was penned around A.D. 68 or 69, and thus the thrust of the book is supposed to relate to the impending destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70).

A few prominent names have been associated with this position (e.g., Stuart, Schaff, Lightfoot, Foy E. Wallace Jr.), and for a brief time it was popular with certain scholars. James Orr has observed, however, that recent criticism has reverted to the traditional date of near A.D. 96 (1939, 2584). In fact, the evidence for the later date is extremely strong.

In view of some of the bizarre theories that have surfaced in recent times (e.g., the notion that all end-time prophecies were fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70), which are dependent upon the preterist interpretation, we offer the following.

External Evidence
The external evidence for the late dating of Revelation is of the highest quality.

Irenaeus
Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.

Clement of Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).

Even Moses Stuart, America’s most prominent preterist, admitted that the “tyrant here meant is probably Domitian.” Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.

Victorinus
Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:

When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).

Jerome
Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said,

In the fourteenth then after Nero, Domitian having raised up a second persecution, he [John] was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse (Lives of Illustrious Men 9).

To all of this may be added the comment of Eusebius, who contends that the historical tradition of his time (A.D. 324) placed the writing of the Apocalypse at the close of Domitian’s reign (III.18). McClintock and Strong, in contending for the later date, declare that “there is no mention in any writer of the first three centuries of any other time or place” (1969, 1064). Upon the basis of external evidence, therefore, there is little contest between the earlier and later dates.

Internal Evidence
The contents of the book of Revelation also suggest a late date, as the following observations indicate.

The spiritual conditions of the churches described in Revelation chapters two and three more readily harmonize with the late date.

The church in Ephesus, for instance, was not founded by Paul until the latter part of Claudius’s reign: and when he wrote to them from Rome, A.D. 61, instead of reproving them for any want of love, he commends their love and faith (Eph. 1:15) (Horne 1841, 382).

Yet, when Revelation was written, in spite of the fact that the Ephesians had been patient (2:2), they had also left their first love (v. 4), and this would seem to require a greater length of time than seven or eight years, as suggested by the early date.

Another internal evidence of a late date is that this book was penned while John was banished to Patmos (1:9). It is well known that Domitian had a fondness for this type of persecution. If, however, this persecution is dated in the time of Nero, how does one account for the fact that Peter and Paul are murdered, yet John is only exiled to an island? (Eusebius III.18; II.25).

Then consider this fact. The church at Laodicea is represented as existing under conditions of great wealth. She was rich and had need of nothing (3:17). In A.D. 60, though, Laodicea had been almost entirely destroyed by an earthquake. Surely it would have required more than eight or nine years for that city to have risen again to the state of affluence described in Revelation.

The doctrinal departures described in Revelation would appear to better fit the later dating. For example, the Nicolaitans (2:6, 15) were a full-fledged sect at the time of John’s writing, whereas they had only been hinted at in general terms in 2 Peter and Jude, which were written possibly around A.D. 65-66.

Persecution for professing the Christian faith is evidenced in those early letters to the seven churches of Asia Minor. For instance, Antipas had been killed in Pergamum (2:13). It is generally agreed among scholars, however, that Nero’s persecution was mostly confined to Rome; further, it was not for religious reasons (Harrison 1964, 446).
 
Last edited:

Taken

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2018
27,406
14,838
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What is the sign of the Son of Man?
OP ^

Interesting question.
Sign of the Son of Man...?


Presently our knowledge IS:
The Son of Man IS SITTING IN HEAVEN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD.

Heb 1:
[3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

I believe the SIGN of the Son of Man....IS; when the Heavens OPEN, and converted men SHALL SEE...
The Son of man STANDING at the Right Hand of God.

Acts 7:
[55] But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
[56] And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Presently...WE DO NOT SEE the Lord Sitting in Heaven.

THE SIGN of the Son of Man (for the Converted, ie Spirit quickened, ie born again)
IS SEEING the Lord STANDING in His PLACE.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,935
1,451
113
Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
@Fullness of the Gentiles Asked: Why does @David H. assume that He did not mean the generation that will be around at the time of His return?
I had assumed that you assumed that by "this generation" He was not speaking of the generation that will be around at the time of His return, because I assumed that you're a Preterist or Partial Preterist.

I apologize for all my false assumptions about what you believe (gulp)

@Fullness of the GentilesI See the first advent and the second advent Only. Jesus comes once in the clouds and as the rider on the white Horse.
So do I. I'm closest to Historic Premillennialist in my understanding of Biblical prophecy, than anything else.

I don't see Christ as "coming in 70 A.D". I see His coming as the three days between His crucifixion when He suffered and died for ours sins, and His resurrection from the dead; and I see His second coming as the time when He returns as the rider on a white horse with his armies riding on white horses, when He defeats the beast and throws it/he and its/his false prophet into the LoF.

But that does not mean that I "know" (or believe I know or think I know) that when He spoke of "this generation" in the Olivet Discourse, He was speaking only of the Jews who would be alive in A.D 66-70, or only of the generation who would be alive at the time of His return at the close of this Age, or both.

I think the Preterist and Partial-Preterist case for "this generation" meaning the 70 A.D generation only is very strong, going by the context of the passage as recorded in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.

WITH REGARD TO A.D 70
I believe 70 A.D marked the end of that Age, and I believe that the last days of that Age came in-between the death and resurrection of Christ (circa A.D 30), and the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D.

I also do not believe that Satan was bound at the time of the cross. I believe he was defeated by the cross, but I believe that the dragon was no more bound at that time, than he was thrown into the LoF at that time (bear in mind that I lean towards Premil).

But I ALSO believe Jesus is our Ark, and just as in the days of Noah the world was judged 120 years before the carrying out of the decreed sentence (giving all time to get into the ark who both believed and would get into the ark), so I believe that because the world was judged and found guilty when Jesus died on the cross ( John 12:31-22 compared with Revelation 12:9-11 ), not only was 30 A.D-70 A.D "the last days" of that Age, ..

.. but it is and remains "the last days" until the carrying out of the decreed sentence ( John 3:18 ), and the decreed sentence will be carried out at the close of the millennium (the second death).

When the wrath of God comes upon a nation or the nations it is always A judgment. But THE judgement of the world occurred when the world was judged and found guilty, and Jesus took the penalty of the sins of the world upon Himself ( John 12:31-32 ).

Tribulation is a word describing the experience of humans - but tribulation is not always experienced as a result of God's wrath (which is A judgment) coming upon people, for example the tribulation that Christians experienced under the hand of Nero was not as a result of the wrath or judgment of God coming upon them.

When the experience of tribulation is extremely Intense, the New Testament refers to it as great tribulation.

APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE
Nevertheless, we can all learn from one another, even when we disagree, and Partial Preterists & Preterists have made me realize (very recently) that the same sort of apocalyptic language used in prophetic scripture to describe:-

i. the destruction of Pharaoh and his armies,
ii. the destruction of Israel by the Assyrians,
iii. the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon,
iv. the destruction of ancient Babylon,

.. is the same apocalyptic language used to describe

v. the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple' and

vi. the destruction of the seven-headed beast of the Revelation.

In other words, the darkening of the sun and moon, the moon turning the color of blood, stars falling from the heavens etc, is apocalayptic language (not meaning the language of the Revelation alone, but the language of any apocalyptic literature), and the events the language describes are not literal, but apocalyptic language is being used to describe the inensity of the calamity coming upon whichever nation (or nations) the prophecy is talking about.

You may disagree (not sure), but that is now (since very recently) how I view the descriptions of events surrounding prophesied events or periods in history (i.e the events are described using apocalyptic literature).

My View is that Prophecy in general is free from time As Is God the source of the Prophecy. My Personal belief is that the Olivet discourse as much of OT prophecy Jumps in time and has multiple possible outcomes.

Like Jonah was sent to prophecy the wrath of God against Ninevah, But because Ninevah repented that wrath was put off by the mercy of God. My Understanding of this with Regard to Israel comes from Paul's epiphany which came to Him In Romans 11, and if you have not read that chapter do so. I Believe that had Israel received Jesus as their Messiah The end of the age would have been circa 70 ad. But God had other plans to reach the gentiles. So In God's mercy, that "Generation" now foretold of a future generation.
I don't believe, for example, that Daniel's 70th week ( Daniel 9:27 ) "jumps". Neither do I believe that "this generation" that Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse "jumps" - but I do believe that it's possible that the Lord may have been talking about both 70 A.D and the time of His return (although I find that difficult to believe, but my mind is open to that possibility).

For 1900 years Israel was not a nation and then she was reborn in a day, By Edict of the UN, Just as prophesied in the Old Testament, The Fig tree that Christ Jesus cursed resprouted its leaves and came back to life. So Now we have a possible dual fulfillment of Prophecy.
I don't believe that the above is a fuflillment of Old Testament prophecy.

I do believe that it's possible that the genetic descendants of Abraham will repent when they see Him coming in the clouds, and of course I am very, very familiar with Romans 11 (I'm surprised you should ask and suggest that I read Romans 11), but I do not believe that this is what Romans 11:25-33 is saying at all. I believe the Gentiles who believe in Jesus (which is a remnant from among the Gentiles) are regarded by God as the house of Israel (regardless of their genetic ancestry) which had not received mercy and of whom it had been said, "You are not My people and I am not your God" but now had come to be called "the sons of the living God", and the Jews who believe in Jesus are the house of Judah, and that this is the "ALL ISRAEL" that Paul is talking about.
 
Last edited: