What JESUS Taught Us At The Last Supper = John 13;3-5

[Ronald Nolette]

No true Christian accepts your attacks as if they were supported by Jesus... True Christians know that this attitude is caused by evil spirits. In this way, Jehovah's Witnesses defeat false Christians, and those who seek the truth and are not Jehovah's Witnesses can distinguish by attitudes who really has the support of God and Jesus.

I myself, for example, am convinced more and more every day that those who attack Jehovah's Witnesses do not have the support of Jesus ... because I know everything Jesus taught regarding the attitudes that he approves and those that he does not.

James 3.13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him by his fine conduct demonstrate works performed with a mildness that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and contentiousness in your hearts, do not be bragging and lying against the truth. 15 This is not the wisdom that comes down from above; it is earthly, animalistic, demonic. 16 For wherever there are jealousy and contentiousness, there will also be disorder and every vile thing.
17 But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, reasonable, ready to obey, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial, not hypocritical. 18 Moreover, the fruit of righteousness is sown in peaceful conditions for those who are making peace.

1 Pet. 2:12 Maintain YOUR conduct fine among the nations, that, in the thing in which they are speaking against YOU as evildoers, they may as a result of YOUR fine works of which they are eyewitnesses glorify God in the day for [his] inspection.

Well other than telling Bob he is wrong and unwilling to go outside of Watchtower material, I have attacked the Watchtower itself for the false prophet and wolf in sheeps clothing it is.

YOu seem to forget Paul railed on false teachers, Jesus turned tables over and Christians are to earnestly contend (wrestle) for the faith.

I start easy and will get down and dirty to try to get one who has been deceived to be rescued by HIm who died and physically rose from the dead to save us!

 

[ElieG12]

You attack what you can't opposed because of your lack of Biblical knowledge.

You attack those who teach the witnesses because you don't feel empowered to refute what they say. That's the truth.

If they are so wrong, instead of attacking them refute the beliefs, as all Christians who really know how to defend what they believe with the Word of God should do ... or shut up and let others prove what they believe with Scripture while you learn...

Mediocre people are the ones who attack people.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Well you are wrong in this as well! but then yu would have to do individual work outside of Watchtower material and that is verboten!

Do you think the original Bible exists Ron?

 

[rwb]

Respectfully disagree:

'Confusion' of What Is Death...

I think the real confusion comes from lacking understanding of the difference between 'spirit' and 'soul'. Every living creature has both a spirit and until physical death is a living soul. Having a spirit means we have a mind that controls every physical bodily function. Through the spirit in every living physical creature on earth comes our thoughts, will, emotions. It is through our spirit that we have understanding of both love and hatred. The spirit in every living creature comes from God. In the beginning man's spirit (physical life) came from the breath of God breathed into the lump of clay, and together with body and spirit man became a living soul.

The physical body of every living creature dies when the spirit departs the body. That body without spirit can no longer be called a living soul. That body is utterly dead, and the flesh returns to the dust from which it was created.

Scripture tells us the spirit in mankind after physical death returns to God. (Ecc. 12:7) The question is how does the spirit in mankind return to God? That depends on whether or not in life man had or had not been born again of the Spirit of Christ. Because Christ has promised that whosoever receives the Spirit is eternally alive through Him, and also that the Spirit in us will be with us forever. (Jo 14:16) So, there is a difference between what becomes of the spirit of men who die with, and those who die without the Spirit of Christ. If life through of our spirit does not continue after physical death with the Spirit of Christ in them, Christ would not have said the life those who believe in Him receive is eternal.

When our physical life has ended, whoever's spirit is indwelt with the life-giving Spirit of Christ, that spirit in man shall never die, but returns to God a living soul. Because whatever lives, whether through physical life or life in our spirit is a living soul. That's why Christ says there is no need for us to fear physical death, rather we should fear Him. For He only is able to destroy both body and soul in the lake of fire. Destruction of soul is death forever. But death of our body doesn't mean death of the spirit indwelt with the everlasting Spirit of Christ.

Matthew 10:28 (KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Our spirit gives our body life which means we are a living soul. As a living soul in heaven through our spirit with the Holy Spirit is to continue to possess life after physical death just as Christ promised when He said: Whosoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.

 

[ElieG12]

(...) He said: Whosoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.

Those words are easy to understand when you consider the millions of people who are going to survive the great tribulation and doomsday of this system of things.

If those survivors remain faithful to the kingdom and are obedient to the new laws that will be revealed during the millennium, they will be able to stay strong against the test at the end, when the Devil is pulled from the abyss to test perfected humanity, just as he tempted our first parents (Rev. 20:7-10).

So if the great crowd remains faithful, then they will never have tasted death.

Actually, if Adam and Eve had never disobeyed God, they would never have died, nor would any of their descendants have inherited this dying condition. At the end of the Millennium humanity on earth will live exactly in the conditions for which we were created (Gen. 1:28; Rev. 21:3,4).

 

[rwb]

Those words are easy to understand when you consider the millions of people who are going to survive the great tribulation and doomsday of this system of things.

If those survivors remain faithful to the kingdom and are obedient to the new laws that will be revealed during the millennium, they will be able to stay strong against the test at the end, when the Devil is pulled from the abyss to test perfected humanity, just as he tempted our first parents (Rev. 20:7-10).

So if the great crowd remains faithful, then they will never have tasted death.

Actually, if Adam and Eve had never disobeyed God, they would never have died, nor would any of their descendants have inherited this dying condition. At the end of the Millennium humanity on earth will live exactly in the conditions for which we were created (Gen. 1:28; Rev. 21:3,4).

But you don't seem to understand. When we are in Christ, that is from the moment we believe, and have the Spirit of Christ in us we have overcome already and are spiritually in the Kingdom of God. When Christ comes the second time, there will not be another one thousand years of time given this earth. Because when the seventh angel sounds time for this earth shall be no more.

1 John 5:4-5 (KJV) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[ElieG12]

The one who "don't seem to understand" is not me.

Read this:

Rev. 7:9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. (...) 13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”

That great crowd survives the great tribulation that has just occurred here on the planet. They are not taken to heaven at any time.

Psal. 37:10 Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. 11 But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

Do you think that this great crowd of survivors of the great tribulation are not loyal to God and to Christ? Read what they are saying when they survive.

Rev. 7:10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

 

[ElieG12]

The issue is not to confuse

1) the faithful who will continue to live on earth after the destruction of the evil people, and
2) the brothers of Jesus who are taken to heaven before the end of the great tribulation.

People think it's a single group, but it's not.

 

[rwb]

The one who "don't seem to understand" is not me.

Read this:

Rev. 7:9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. (...) 13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”

That great crowd survives the great tribulation that has just occurred here on the planet. They are not taken to heaven at any time.

Psal. 37:10 Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. 11 But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

Do you think that this great crowd of survivors of the great tribulation are not loyal to God and to Christ? Read what they are saying when they survive.

Rev. 7:10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

Elie, the great tribulation comes as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the world. Great tribulation/persecution began against the Church on earth as She faithfully went forth with the Gospel. The innumerable multitude in heaven is a picture of ALL the redeemed in heaven, after they have come through great tribulation in this age. The faithful saints survive great tribulation in this age, because death is not the end of them, but the beginning of their eternal life in heaven. The Church on earth will endure to the end because God will cut short every trial and tribulation assuring this earth will never be without the faithful Church until time for this earth shall be no more.

Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 24:21-22 (KJV) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

We're able to learn from Acts exactly when and how great tribulation/persecution came to the Church on earth at the very beginning of the universal Church on earth. Stephen was the first convert to Christ to be martyred for His faith, where Saul (later to be Apostle Paul)
was consenting to his death. Through this great tribulation/persecution the faithful saints, the Church, was scattered abroad, spreading the Gospel wherever they went.

Acts 8:1-4 (KJV) And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

 

[ElieG12]

The great tribulation is the day (the period) God has to judge this world. The great tribulation ends with what we know as the Armageddon .

It is not about any "church".

Dan. 12:1 “During that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book.

 

[rwb]

The great tribulation is the day (the period) God has to judge this world. The great tribulation ends with what we know as the Armageddon .

It is not about any "church".

Elie, I've already shown with Scripture what and when "great tribulation" is and began. On Judgment Day it will be too late for any to be saved, for then the Kingdom of God will be complete, and believers will be resurrected to immortality and incorruption to be with Christ on the new earth after this earth and all remaining on is utterly burned up.

 

[ElieG12]

You quoted some passages that you are interpreting to your own way. Those passages don't say what you belief ... but you are making eisegesis of the text.

Try better.

Did you read and understood what the angel told Daniel about the great tribulation? Read it again:

Dan. 12:1 “During that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book.

Jesus' words can help you too ... you quoted them:

" (...) unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short. " (Mat. 24:22).

I know what you are saying, but you seem to misunderstand what the Scripture says: many Christians are going to be alive during the great tribulation, and they are going to survive it.

Rev. 7:9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. (...) 13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”

If they come out of the great tribulation it is because they had to go through it and survive it.

They consider that their SALVATION:

Rev. 7:10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

The 144000 kings and priests are not there. They were already taken at that moment.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Do you think the original Bible exists Ron?

If by that you mean all the original writings? No!

But we have faithful copies of all the NT and OT, especially the OT.

It has been shown that in the writings of the Ante-Nicen Fathers, every singly verse of the NT except 25 are found in their writings. So though we do not have the original autographs, we have faithful copies. God would not leave His church.

So if you are syaing that sopmehow we have corruptd copies- you need to present your evidence other than opinion or feeling.

 

[ElieG12]

If by that you mean all the original writings? No!

But we have faithful copies of all the NT and OT, especially the OT.

It has been shown that in the writings of the Ante-Nicen Fathers, every singly verse of the NT except 25 are found in their writings. So though we do not have the original autographs, we have faithful copies. God would not leave His church.

So if you are syaing that sopmehow we have corruptd copies- you need to present your evidence other than opinion or feeling.

I agree with you about that. I am not sure if Robert means something diferent than what you say. Maybe is just a misunderstanding.

One thing is truth: we should be careful on what commentaries we rely on.

The issue with Christendom in general is that they do not have any trustable source about certain biblical topics; they are very ambiguos and general, while JWs do.

Maybe that is why some people attacks WT that much: jealousy, envy? Most of the information of the JWs can be consulted freely by anyone in their official website.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The issue with Christendom in general is that they do not have any trustable source about certain biblical topics; they are very ambiguos and general, while JWs do.

Maybe that is why some people attacks WT that much: jealousy, envy? Most of the information of the JWs can be consulted freely by anyone in their official website.

We have many trustable sources, as well as the wolves in sheep clothing who seek to harm the flocks of God.

I attack the Watchtower for they are false prophets and false teachers and through religious zeal and fervor are leading millions to an eternity of torment in the lake of fire.

And I would not call any of that supposed "faithful and discreet slave class" trustable. They are probably very nice people, have a real sense of spirituality and probably loaded with good deeds but they preach a false gospel which makes them an enemy of the cross of Christ.

 

[Jim B]

You attack what you can't opposed because of your lack of Biblical knowledge.

You attack those who teach the witnesses because you don't feel empowered to refute what they say. That's the truth.

If they are so wrong, instead of attacking them refute the beliefs, as all Christians who really know how to defend what they believe with the Word of God should do ... or shut up and let others prove what they believe with Scripture while you learn...

Mediocre people are the ones who attack people.

And you are doing that in your post!

 

[Jim B]

I agree with you about that. I am not sure if Robert means something diferent than what you say. Maybe is just a misunderstanding.

One thing is truth: we should be careful on what commentaries we rely on.

The issue with Christendom in general is that they do not have any trustable source about certain biblical topics; they are very ambiguos and general, while JWs do.

Maybe that is why some people attacks WT that much: jealousy, envy? Most of the information of the JWs can be consulted freely by anyone in their official website.

The issue with Christendom in general is that they do not have any trustable source about certain biblical topics? Really? Have you ever heard of the Bible? It is a trustable source about all things Biblical.

 

[ElieG12]

Your opinion about the WT is none of my business. I don't think Jesus cares about it.

In Christendom there is not any source of trustable information about biblical topics. Religious leaders don't mind the truth when it comes to set things straight because what they mind is the money they get, contrary to WT.

Theologians don't even know what is right or wrong. I got a very sofisticated biblical program, very expensive. I never looks on the Commentaries because one says one thing and the other the contrary ... It is funny: each of you choose whatever you like in whatever you read. Poor people wtihout anyone who really help you to understand the Scriptures.

JWs eat healthy food while others eat fast food

 

[Jim B]

Your opinion about the WT is none of my business. I don't think Jesus cares about it.

In Christendom there is not any source of trustable information about biblical topics. Religious leaders don't mind the truth when it comes to set things straight because what they mind is the money they get, contrary to WT.

Theologians don't even know what is right or wrong. I got a very sofisticated biblical program, very expensive. I never looks on the Commentaries because one says one thing and the other the contrary ... It is funny: each of you choose whatever you like in whatever you read. Poor people wtihout anyone who really help you to understand the Scriptures.

JWs eat healthy food while others eat fast food

Again, have you ever heard of the Bible? It is a trustable source about all things Biblical. People often try to logically figure out the Bible, forgetting that it teaches spiritual truths. The Biblical authors were not modern journalists. They wrote as God directed them. His truths are there if one is willing to put aside doubts and let God's word "speak" to them, i.e., to their spirit, not to their logic.

Many others besides JWs eat healthy food and avoid fast food. What is your point?

 

[Robert Gwin]

If by that you mean all the original writings? No!

But we have faithful copies of all the NT and OT, especially the OT.

It has been shown that in the writings of the Ante-Nicen Fathers, every singly verse of the NT except 25 are found in their writings. So though we do not have the original autographs, we have faithful copies. God would not leave His church.

So if you are syaing that sopmehow we have corruptd copies- you need to present your evidence other than opinion or feeling.

I am glad we agree on this. So with the multiple versions available today, as well as God revealing His truths Dan 12:4, we can see how versions alter their wording. Sometimes it is very easy to see alterations like Ps 110:1, thus deducing the reason for the alteration.

With your comment about the ante-Nicean Fathers, do you side with the doctrinal changes done by the council held in Nicea in 325 sir?