What JESUS Taught Us At The Last Supper = John 13;3-5

[ElieG12]

Again, have you ever heard of the Bible? It is a trustable source about all things Biblical. People often try to logically figure out the Bible, forgetting that it teaches spiritual truths. The Biblical authors were not modern journalists. They wrote as God directed them. His truths are there if one is willing to put aside doubts and let God's word "speak" to them, i.e., to their spirit, not to their logic.

Many others besides JWs eat healthy food and avoid fast food. What is your point?

Oh, boy ... What are those who are honestly seeking the truth going to do if God order those who are his true servants that they can no longer share with the rebels the spiritual food (knowledge) that he is giving them? Do you believe that God's patience is forever?

Is. 65:13 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says:
“Look! My servants will eat, but you will go hungry.
Look! My servants will drink, but you will go thirsty.
Look! My servants will rejoice, but you will suffer shame.
14 Look! My servants will shout joyfully because of the good condition of the heart,
But you will cry out because of the pain of heart
And you will wail because of a broken spirit.
15 You will leave behind a name that my chosen ones will use as a curse,
And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will put each of you to death,
But his own servants he will call by another name;
16 So that anyone who seeks a blessing for himself in the earth
Will be blessed by the God of truth,
And anyone who swears an oath in the earth
Will swear by the God of truth.
For the former distresses will be forgotten;
They will be concealed from my eyes.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I am glad we agree on this. So with the multiple versions available today, as well as God revealing His truths Dan 12:4, we can see how versions alter their wording. Sometimes it is very easy to see alterations like Ps 110:1, thus deducing the reason for the alteration.

With your comment about the ante-Nicean Fathers, do you side with the doctrinal changes done by the council held in Nicea in 325 sir?

I know where you are going with this and you are wrong. Alterations are done for two and only two reasons:

1. To take an archaic or old word and bring it into modern language for easier understanding
and

2. To alter the meaning of the inspired word of God to promote false doctrine.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I am glad we agree on this. So with the multiple versions available today, as well as God revealing His truths Dan 12:4, we can see how versions alter their wording. Sometimes it is very easy to see alterations like Ps 110:1, thus deducing the reason for the alteration.

With your comment about the ante-Nicean Fathers, do you side with the doctrinal changes done by the council held in Nicea in 325 sir?

As for the doctrinal changes- you would have to list which ones. some were codifications of established doctrine
some were clarifications of doctrines after the Roman and Greek philosophical attacks on the church
and some were new doctrines so which ones are you specifically referring to.

 

[Jim B]

Oh, boy ... What are those who are honestly seeking the truth going to do if God order those who are his true servants that they can no longer share with the rebels the spiritual food (knowledge) that he is giving them? Do you believe that God's patience is forever?

Is. 65:13 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says:
“Look! My servants will eat, but you will go hungry.
Look! My servants will drink, but you will go thirsty.
Look! My servants will rejoice, but you will suffer shame.
14 Look! My servants will shout joyfully because of the good condition of the heart,
But you will cry out because of the pain of heart
And you will wail because of a broken spirit.
15 You will leave behind a name that my chosen ones will use as a curse,
And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will put each of you to death,
But his own servants he will call by another name;
16 So that anyone who seeks a blessing for himself in the earth
Will be blessed by the God of truth,
And anyone who swears an oath in the earth
Will swear by the God of truth.
For the former distresses will be forgotten;
They will be concealed from my eyes.

a) Your post is an excellent example of a run-on sentence.
b) Sharing of the spiritual food will continue until Jesus comes in the clouds.
c) Quoting an Old Testament prophet out of context to try to prove a New Testament truth is a fine example of eisegesis.

Here is the entire chapter from Isaiah (with my emphases added)...

I was ready to be sought out by those who did not ask,
to be found by those who did not seek me.
I said, “Here I am, here I am,”
to a nation that did not call on my name.
I held out my hands all day long
to a rebellious people,
who walk in a way that is not good,
following their own devices;
a people who provoke me
to my face continually,
sacrificing in gardens
and offering incense on bricks;
who sit inside tombs
and spend the night in secret places;
who eat the flesh of pigs,
with broth of abominable things in their vessels;
who say, “Keep to yourself;
do not come near me, for I am too holy for you.”
These are a smoke in my nostrils,
a fire that burns all day long.
See, it is written before me:
I will not keep silent, but I will repay;
I will indeed repay into their laps
their iniquities and their ancestors’ iniquities together,
says the Lord;
because they offered incense on the mountains
and reviled me on the hills,
I will measure into their laps
full payment for their actions.
Thus says the Lord:
As the wine is found in the cluster,
and they say, “Do not destroy it,
for there is a blessing in it,”
so I will do for my servants’ sake
and not destroy them all.
I will bring forth descendants from Jacob
and from Judah inheritors of my mountains;
my chosen shall inherit it,
and my servants shall settle there.
Sharon shall become a pasture for flocks
and the Valley of Achor a place for herds to lie down,
for my people who have sought me.

[pay attention to whom this is addressed here!]

But you who forsake the Lord,
who forget my holy mountain,
who set a table for Fortune
and fill cups of mixed wine for Destiny,
I will destine you to the sword,
and all of you shall bow down to the slaughter;
because, when I called, you did not answer,
when I spoke, you did not listen,
but you did what was evil in my sight
and chose what I did not delight in.
Therefore thus says the Lord God:
My servants shall eat,
but you [who forsake the Lord] shall be hungry;
my servants shall drink,
but you [who forsake the Lord] shall be thirsty;
my servants shall rejoice,
but you [who forsake the Lord] shall be put to shame;
my servants shall sing with gladness of heart,
but you [who forsake the Lord] shall cry out in pain of heart
and shall wail in anguish of spirit.
You [who forsake the Lord] shall leave your name to my chosen to use as a curse,
and the Lord God will put you to death,
but to his servants he will give a different name.
Then whoever invokes a blessing in the land
shall bless by the God of faithfulness,
and whoever takes an oath in the land
shall swear by the God of faithfulness,
because the former troubles are forgotten
and are hidden from my sight.

For I am about to create new heavens
and a new earth;
the former things shall not be remembered
or come to mind.
But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I am creating,
for I am about to create Jerusalem as a joy
and its people as a delight.
I will rejoice in Jerusalem
and delight in my people;
no more shall the sound of weeping be heard in it
or the cry of distress.
No more shall there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days
or an old person who does not live out a lifetime,
for one who dies at a hundred years will be considered a youth,
and one who falls short of a hundred will be considered accursed.
They shall build houses and inhabit them;
they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
They shall not build and another inhabit;
they shall not plant and another eat,
for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be,
and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
They shall not labor in vain
or bear children for calamity,
for they shall be offspring blessed by the Lord—
and their descendants as well.
Before they call I will answer,
while they are yet speaking I will hear.
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together;
the lion shall eat straw like the ox,
but the serpent—its food shall be dust!
They shall not hurt or destroy
on all my holy mountain,
says the Lord.

Context matters!!!

 

[ElieG12]

a) Your post is an excellent example of a run-on sentence.
b) Sharing of the spiritual food will continue until Jesus comes in the clouds.
c) Quoting an Old Testament prophet out of context to try to prove a New Testament truth is a fine example of eisegesis.

Here is the entire chapter from Isaiah (with my emphases added)...

(...)

Context matters!!!

Do you know what an inspired prophecy is and to what end are they given to prophets? Context in prophecies has to do with the first fulfillment, not with the bigger fulfillment like the one for the last times. Do you really know what you are talking about or you are just showing off?

Isaiah finished his inspired book no long after 732 B.C.E. Do you have any idea about what was the first fulfillment of this prophecy to talk like that as fast as you are doing?

 

[Robert Gwin]

I know where you are going with this and you are wrong. Alterations are done for two and only two reasons:

1. To take an archaic or old word and bring it into modern language for easier understanding
and

2. To alter the meaning of the inspired word of God to promote false doctrine.

If I am wrong, you are wrong sir, as I couldn't have said that better myself. I fully agree!

 

[Robert Gwin]

As for the doctrinal changes- you would have to list which ones. some were codifications of established doctrine
some were clarifications of doctrines after the Roman and Greek philosophical attacks on the church
and some were new doctrines so which ones are you specifically referring to.

The main one of course is the trinity, however I am not sure that we will be allowed to discuss it Ron.

 

[Jim B]

Do you know what an inspired prophecy is and to what end are they given to prophets? Context in prophecies has to do with the first fulfillment, not with the bigger fulfillment like the one for the last times. Do you really know what you are talking about or you are just showing off?

Isaiah finished his inspired book no long after 732 B.C.E. Do you have any idea about what was the first fulfillment of this prophecy to talk like that as fast as you are doing?

Unlike yourself, I know what I am talking about.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If I am wrong, you are wrong sir, as I couldn't have said that better myself. I fully agree!

No it is just you that are wrong in where you were trying to lead this thought to.

Alterations from the original are good only if they take archaic words and make them modern . Example: denarii to days wage.

Not to take Passages like John 1:3:

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And add the word "other" which changes the entire thought of the passage. but you should know that.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The main one of course is the trinity, however I am not sure that we will be allowed to discuss it Ron.

I don't see why not.

Teh trinity was accepted since the early first century, but not codified until the fourth.

 

[Robert Gwin]

No it is just you that are wrong in where you were trying to lead this thought to.

Alterations from the original are good only if they take archaic words and make them modern . Example: denarii to days wage.

Not to take Passages like John 1:3:

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And add the word "other" which changes the entire thought of the passage. but you should know that.

It doesn't happen often, but once again here is another example. I get a kick out of seeing this. I agree with someone, and then they change their mind. Well I know what I believe sir, why is it that you changed your mind when I agreed with you? Strange huh. Some simply blow with the wind.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I don't see why not.

Teh trinity was accepted since the early first century, but not codified until the fourth.

As you said, it was "codified" in the fourth. Belief in triad gods was on record way before the first century Ron.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It doesn't happen often, but once again here is another example. I get a kick out of seeing this. I agree with someone, and then they change their mind. Well I know what I believe sir, why is it that you changed your mind when I agreed with you? Strange huh. Some simply blow with the wind.

I did not change my mind. I suspected you were trying to justify the false watchtower premise that Jesus is created, by adding "other" to Scripture. This is not a legitimate updating of language but a complete redefining the passage as it was written by the Inspired writers of God.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

As you said, it was "codified" in the fourth. Belief in triad gods was on record way before the first century Ron.

Well one would expect that. Satan is a great counterfeiter so he would naturally create the ancient triads as counterfeit to the one true God who is embodied in three people.

Just like Satan creating pyramids as temples of Worship. It is a counterfeit of the New Jerusalem which comes down from heaven.

Codified simply means that is was an enormously widely accepted belief and then made official doctrine.

Teh belief that Jesus was a created being started (as being popular in the church) with Origen. He repented of it when the church showed Him his error. But one of HIs students Arius of Alexandria kept it alive and swept much of the church along for nearly four decades. It was destroyed and the Watchtower doctrine of Jesus being created and a god but not God is from Arius and Origen in their heretical times.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I did not change my mind. I suspected you were trying to justify the false watchtower premise that Jesus is created, by adding "other" to Scripture. This is not a legitimate updating of language but a complete redefining the passage as it was written by the Inspired writers of God.

Then what part of my agreement with what you said, did you not agree with Ron? Like I said sir, I couldn't have said it better myself, you were exactly correct.

I fail to understand what your watchtower or my watchtower has to do with the subject. Clearly though there is a distinction between the two. But sometimes we will align on scripture.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Well one would expect that. Satan is a great counterfeiter so he would naturally create the ancient triads as counterfeit to the one true God who is embodied in three people.

Just like Satan creating pyramids as temples of Worship. It is a counterfeit of the New Jerusalem which comes down from heaven.

Codified simply means that is was an enormously widely accepted belief and then made official doctrine.

Teh belief that Jesus was a created being started (as being popular in the church) with Origen. He repented of it when the church showed Him his error. But one of HIs students Arius of Alexandria kept it alive and swept much of the church along for nearly four decades. It was destroyed and the Watchtower doctrine of Jesus being created and a god but not God is from Arius and Origen in their heretical times.

Glad we agree once again sir, but the Bible clearly states: Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; Re 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God: Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son

I personally believe those verses are referring to Jesus, how bout yourself Ron?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Then what part of my agreement with what you said, did you not agree with Ron? Like I said sir, I couldn't have said it better myself, you were exactly correct.

I fail to understand what your watchtower or my watchtower has to do with the subject. Clearly though there is a distinction between the two. But sometimes we will align on scripture.

I think you do know what your Watchtower has to do with it. they have added words that have completely altered the meaning of Sripture. But you know that already are responsible for that now.

If you do not understand, Translators outside of the cults like the Watchtower, alter the original because the ori8ginal in its construct says what English has to add to make it understandable in English. Things like verb tenses etc. Your watchtower adds words not found in the inspired originals to alter the meaning of whole passages. If you wish to associate yourself with the Watchtower then you become an accomplice to their crime against God.

And pray tell- what is my watchtower? YOu like throwing that out, now how about a specific definition.

Glad we agree once again sir, but the Bible clearly states: Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; Re 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God: Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son

I personally believe those verses are referring to Jesus, how bout yourself Ron?

Yes they do refer to Jesus 100%. But because you blindly follow the Watchtower and will not do independent historic language and culture study you fail to learn that Col. 1:15 is a direct and clear explicit reference to Jesus being the heir of all things. Creation was not born but spoken into existence. and if Jesus was created (which is false) He would have been created not born!

And as for rev. 3:14? Once again you err, for you fail to learn. Beginning is "arche" It would never mean as 21st century people think as the first thing, but in its linguistic and cultural context- it means that Jesus was the initiaitor and ruler over the creation.

When one studies and compares the claims including the Watchtower claims as I did, the truth is found and the cults (Watchtower) are exposed.

 

[ElieG12]

(...) Col. 1:15 is a direct and clear explicit reference to Jesus being the heir of all things. (...)

Yeah, Jesus was appointed heir:

Psal. 2: 7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah;
He said to me: “You are my son;
Today I have become your father.
8 Ask of me, and I will give nations as your inheritance
And the ends of the earth as your possession."

... and his brothers as joint heirs with him:

Rom. 8:16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs—heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ—provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together.

Beutifully exposed in the Scriptures.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I think you do know what your Watchtower has to do with it. they have added words that have completely altered the meaning of Sripture. But you know that already are responsible for that now.

If you do not understand, Translators outside of the cults like the Watchtower, alter the original because the ori8ginal in its construct says what English has to add to make it understandable in English. Things like verb tenses etc. Your watchtower adds words not found in the inspired originals to alter the meaning of whole passages. If you wish to associate yourself with the Watchtower then you become an accomplice to their crime against God.

And pray tell- what is my watchtower? YOu like throwing that out, now how about a specific definition.

Yes they do refer to Jesus 100%. But because you blindly follow the Watchtower and will not do independent historic language and culture study you fail to learn that Col. 1:15 is a direct and clear explicit reference to Jesus being the heir of all things. Creation was not born but spoken into existence. and if Jesus was created (which is false) He would have been created not born!

And as for rev. 3:14? Once again you err, for you fail to learn. Beginning is "arche" It would never mean as 21st century people think as the first thing, but in its linguistic and cultural context- it means that Jesus was the initiaitor and ruler over the creation.

When one studies and compares the claims including the Watchtower claims as I did, the truth is found and the cults (Watchtower) are exposed.

Well whether you agreed with what you said or not Ron, I did agree fully.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well whether you agreed with what you said or not Ron, I did agree fully.

I( did agree with myself., it is your understanding that doesn't.