What makes a doctrine false?

[Jay Ross]

That's not true.
Universalism, or better, Ultimate Redemption, allows for a full age of judgement/evaluation/correction/restoration.
Every nation, leader (government/religious), and individual will face judgement and accountability.

SSV

Ultimate redemption only has one period of grace in which redemption can be obtained. That period of grace only exists while a person is able to draw breath, and it does not extend to an infinite time period after a person draws their last breath like you are wanting to happen.

Genesis 2:17 is best understood that if a person commits a sin against God, that they immediately become a candidate to die the second death in the "distant" future after they are judged at the time of the GWTR judgement.

Now Ezekiel 18 tells us that if a person is a candidate for the second death, then if they repent of their sin(s) and change their ways to honour God in the prescribed manner, then that person will gain eternal life at the time of the GWTR judgement. This chapter also tells us that if a righteous man sins, that he will not live unless he repents of his "sin(s)", but that he will certainly die the second death.

There is no get out of jail card in life which a person can use. The only out for a person to gain eternal life is for that person to repent of their sin(s) during the period of Grace that God allows before they draw their last breath.

Sadly, what you would like God to do is to love you more than anyone else and allow you to sneak into the age of eternity ahead of everybody else. What you are teaching is that God is not fair to everybody else except to just you with your theory of Ultimate redemption.

The rules for eternal life have been set in stone and God has confirmed these "rules" from the very beginning and will not change them just for you and your like. That is what is called fairness on God's part.

You and your like have been given a period of grace to comply with God's prescribed rules and He apparently has no intention of changing them for anybody.

 

[St. SteVen]

Ultimate redemption only has one period of grace in which redemption can be obtained. That period of grace only exists while a person is able to draw breath, and it does not extend to an infinite time period after a person draws their last breath like you are wanting to happen.

Why does this scripture include the term "under the earth"?

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Jay Ross]

Why does this scripture include the term "under the earth"?

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Because it includes all those people who have existed and have drawn their last physical breath on the earth before the final trumpet. You and I will be one of those "under the earth" at that time hopeful of being found righteous right up to the point of drawing our last breath.

This verse includes those who will be judged and dispatched into the lake of fire which will happen after the time of judgment.

SSV you should not be trying to change the intended meaning in this verse that you quoted.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The thing is Hidden, you are so convinced your labelling is accurate that the formulation of your ideas based on that labelling is just simply inaccurate.
You are not aware that the label Universalist or Universalism as it is generally understood, has no resonance with me.

The truth of that post was either willingly lost on you, or you are simply ignorant to its meaning. Either way your replay is same same.

 

[Hiddenthings]

That's not true.
Universalism, or better, Ultimate Redemption, allows for a full age of judgement/evaluation/correction/restoration.
Every nation, leader (government/religious), and individual will face judgement and accountability.

To claim that ‘none are lost’ requires compulsory grace, which in turn makes God a debtor to man. Your position has not been thought through carefully; it produces a man-made gospel that neglects the weightier matters taught by Christ.

Everlasting contempt is the opposite of everlasting life - you hold to one and forgo the other.

“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:2)

Not all!
Soul sleep is taught in both OT and NT teaching
The permanency of death is that the wicked shall be remember no more.

The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.” (Psalm 34:16)

I pity those who grasp onto a man-made gospel.

It cannot save...that's why Paul used the fieriest language in Galatians 1

Imagine if you discovered too late that this was you all along

"let them be under God’s curse!"

 

[quietthinker]

The truth of that post was either willingly lost on you, or you are simply ignorant to its meaning. Either way your replay is same same.

What you wish to see is what you focus on, not what is actually there. You do not hear even when it is told you directly.

 

[Hiddenthings]

That's not true.
Universalism, or better, Ultimate Redemption, allows for a full age of judgement/evaluation/correction/restoration.
Every nation, leader (government/religious), and individual will face judgement and accountability.

Let's consider one aspect of this fallacy then:

Judgment is universal

Lets begin with Peter's insight shall we?

1 Peter 4:17: “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?” (1 Peter 4:17)

Here Peter only includes those who are responsible to the Gospel of God for how can God judge a person ignorant of His Will and Purpose?

Do you see Peters inference here as being a positive end for those who don't obey or a negative one?

 

[Hiddenthings]

What you wish to see is what you focus on, not what is actually there. You do not hear even when it is told you directly.

The evidence presented here is so clear and overwhelming that your posts lack any real credibility. Because of a spiritual inability to engage the Word of God, you resort to one-line remarks that deflect responsibility rather than address the meaning of the text.

You persist in asking foolish and unlearned questions, and when the clear interpretation is presented, you dismiss it in favor of responses like these. Rather than allowing the answer to take root in your heart, you cling to your own wisdom.

Sad that you can't see this.

 

[quietthinker]

The evidence presented here is so clear and overwhelming that your posts lack any real credibility. Because of a spiritual inability to engage the Word of God, you resort to one-line remarks that deflect responsibility rather than address the meaning of the text.

You persist in asking foolish and unlearned questions, and when the clear interpretation is presented, you dismiss it in favor of responses like these. Rather than allowing the answer to take root in your heart, you cling to your own wisdom.

Sad that you can't see this.

and so you deceive yourself....effectively!

 

[Hiddenthings]

and so you deceive yourself....effectively!

You will never learn Quiet while you hold to your blindness. The scales can come off but you will need to see the Light of God in the Face of Jesus Christ. You should read Johns Gospel "Come and See!" Spend some time in John 1-4 as a good place to start. If you need a hand to interpret, I am always here to assist!

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Why does this scripture include the term "under the earth"?

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

SSV you should not be trying to change the intended meaning in this verse that you quoted.

That saw cuts both ways.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Everyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection)

 

[Jay Ross]

Everyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection)

SSV

I agree that during the Grace period for mankind, to acknowledge that "Jesus is Lord," requires the help and empowering of the Holy Spirit.

However, Phil 2:10-11 embraces the time period after the Grace period has come to its completion. After the completion of the Period of Grace, everybody will see Jesus returning to the earth and they will know/realise this fact and everybody will bow their knee in His presence.

You are allowing your Universal Salvation theology to dictate that everybody will be saved when Jesus returns to the earth to open the books on each and everybody's record of their righteousness. These books, to my knowledge are only written during God's period of Grace and as such the die will have already been caste to determine our destiny as to whether or not we are righteous.

Your understanding does not hold and is flawed.

 

[St. SteVen]

You are allowing your Universal Salvation theology to dictate that everybody will be saved when Jesus returns to the earth to open the books on each and everybody's record of their righteousness. These books, to my knowledge are only written during God's period of Grace and as such the die will have already been caste to determine our destiny as to whether or not we are righteous.

That's the 20th century protestant evangelical view.
It doesn't account for those who never had the opportunity to do it your way.

 

[Jay Ross]

That's the 20th century protestant evangelical view.
It does account for those who never had the opportunity to do it your way.

OH SSV, what I wrote is God's way of separating the righteous from the unrighteous. Sadly, you want to have a foot in each camp but having a foot in each camp means that it is you, who has cast the die on your destiny, and your shortfall is noted even now before you even draw your last breath during your lifetime.

However, if you are willing to repent of your sin(s) and are prepared to inhabit God's fertile soil unreservedly forever, then God will relent and include you among the righteous.

What this requires of you is to renew your mind/understanding of God Himself and for you to put on the refurbished personhood that God desires you to become. Believe me, there will be great rejoicing in heaven, if you chose to choose this outcome.

 

[St. SteVen]

However, if you are willing to repent of your sin(s) and are prepared to inhabit God's fertile soil unreservedly forever, then God will relent and include you among the righteous.

It's preposterous to think that a Universalist isn't saved.
There's no call for it.

 

[Jay Ross]

It's preposterous to think that a Universalist isn't saved.
There's no call for it.

You are right, "There's no call for it.", in the scriptures at all that Universalists will be saved after they have physically died. That is your private understanding to make what you believe acceptable to you.

 

[St. SteVen]

You are right, "There's no call for it.", in the scriptures at all that Universalists will be saved after they have physically died. That is your private understanding to make what you believe acceptable to you.

Universalism was a popular doctrine in the early church of the east.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

The western church that gave us our Bible was Damnationist.
The Bible says that all will be saved. Even you.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 NIV
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32, 36
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

 

[Jay Ross]

Universalism was a popular doctrine in the early church of the east.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

The western church that gave us our Bible was Damnationist.
The Bible says that all will be saved. Even you.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 NIV
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32, 36
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

As far as God is concerned, you are free to believe whatever you want to believe about what God will do based on the biases you have adopted.

Sadly, for you God did not adopt the same "Universalist" perspective that you have.

 

[St. SteVen]

As far as God is concerned, you are free to believe whatever you want to believe about what God will do based on the biases you have adopted.

That saw cuts both ways. Why couldn't I say the same about you?

All three biblically supported doctrines of the final judgement are contradictory.
Your view is no better than mine.

"My doctrinal opinion is true; you're doctrinal opinion is false." - Got it?

"My doctrinal opinion is true; you're doctrinal opinion is false." - Got it? Say what? Or worse... "Who should I believe, you, or the Word of God?" (in reference to a man-made doctrinal opinion) Basically, playing the "God card" to win a doctrinal argument. "How will you top that?" Why do...

www.christianityboard.com

Sadly, for you God did not adopt the same "Universalist" perspective that you have.

That's ridiculous. Who are you to make such a claim?
Is God not merciful and forgiving? Is He not in the business of redemption?

 

[Jay Ross]

That saw cuts both ways. Why couldn't I say the same about you?

All three biblically supported doctrines of the final judgement are contradictory.
Your view is no better than mine.

"My doctrinal opinion is true; you're doctrinal opinion is false." - Got it?

"My doctrinal opinion is true; you're doctrinal opinion is false." - Got it? Say what? Or worse... "Who should I believe, you, or the Word of God?" (in reference to a man-made doctrinal opinion) Basically, playing the "God card" to win a doctrinal argument. "How will you top that?" Why do...

www.christianityboard.com

That's ridiculous. Who are you to make such a claim?
Is God not merciful and forgiving? Is He not in the business of redemption?

Yes, God is merciful and forgiving on His terms but not on our terms/imposed understanding of what He has had written in His scriptures.