What makes a doctrine false?

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St. SteVen

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Yes, God is merciful and forgiving on His terms but not on our terms/imposed understanding of what He has had written in His scriptures.
The scriptures are contradictory on the subject of the final judgment.
There are scriptures that indicate eternal conscious torment.
There are others that declare that the wicked will be completely destroyed.
And still others that say that all of humankind will be saved.
I choose the view that honors God's character.

I question why the church historically has wanted to hold tightly the reins of salvation.
As if the church wanted to be the source of salvation, in the interest of controlling the masses.
The threat of eternal damnation is about as scary as it gets.
 
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Hiddenthings

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I received an article from the Medium news service claiming that the Hell doctrine is essential to Christianity. If Jesus is our Savior, He needs something serious to save us FROM.
In humanities case it's the prison of the grave - some will come out but most remain.
 

Hiddenthings

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1 Timothy 2:5-6 NIV
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time

I've explained to you about taking a balanced view of the Gods Victory over the flesh and sin and how it speaks in absolutes, however the letter goes on to tell you...

1 Timothy 4:1–2 “Some shall depart from the faith… having their conscience seared with a hot iron.”

Can you explain, from 1 and 2 Timothy, the consequences for one who has departed from the original gospel (faith), and what it means for a person whose conscience has become seared? Are you also able to provide New Testament examples of such individuals?

@Jay Ross, the issue here is not merely a narrow reading of the text, but the distortion of its meaning in order to support a man-made method of salvation.

BTW St SteVen to my knowledge never engages in the Scripture past his first copy and paste listing - he has done this so many times over the past 18 months I think he has it on auto text.
 
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Hiddenthings

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1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
This verse does not teach that Christ’s atoning sacrifice is automatically or universally applied to all humanity by mere substitution. Rather, it affirms that the provision of atonement is universal in scope, while its application is conditional and personal.

Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient for all, but it is not imposed upon all. Scripture consistently presents the atonement as available, not automatic.

The covering of sin accomplished at the cross stands open to every person, yet it demands a response from the one who would benefit from it.

That response is not ambiguous. Jesus himself declares, He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life (John 3:36). Faith is not a passive acknowledgment, but a decisive entrusting of oneself to Christ. Likewise, Christ joins faith with obedient response, stating plainly, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved” (Mark 16:16). Baptism is not presented as a mere symbol detached from salvation, but as the God-ordained expression of faith’s surrender.

Nor does Scripture allow for a profession of faith that bears no fruit. Jesus warns, “You are My friends if you do whatever I command you” (John 15:14), and the apostle John reinforces this truth: “By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar” (1 John 2:3–4). The walk of obedience does not earn salvation, but it confirms its reality.

To claim that Christ’s atonement automatically covers all people, irrespective of faith, repentance, and obedience, is to sever provision from purpose and grace from transformation. The gospel does not proclaim a salvation that bypasses the will, ignores accountability, or renders human response irrelevant. It proclaims a salvation freely offered, costly accomplished, and personally received.

Christ died for all, but only those who believe, obey, and walk in him are said to be “in Christ.” Anything less reduces the cross to a transaction without repentance and grace without lordship, ideas foreign to the teaching of Christ and his apostles.

@Jay Ross @quietthinker @WalterandDebbie, if you hold to a substitutionary model of atonement as the basis of justification and salvation, you are more likely to arrive at a position like SteVen’s, which ultimately stands on the wrong side of God Manifestation and Christ’s representative atonement.

Once it is understood that Christ required salvation, both the substitutionary model and universalism are set aside as false.
 

quietthinker

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This verse does not teach that Christ’s atoning sacrifice is automatically or universally applied to all humanity by mere substitution. Rather, it affirms that the provision of atonement is universal in scope, while its application is conditional and personal.

Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient for all, but it is not imposed upon all. Scripture consistently presents the atonement as available, not automatic.

The covering of sin accomplished at the cross stands open to every person, yet it demands a response from the one who would benefit from it.

That response is not ambiguous. Jesus himself declares, He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life (John 3:36). Faith is not a passive acknowledgment, but a decisive entrusting of oneself to Christ. Likewise, Christ joins faith with obedient response, stating plainly, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved” (Mark 16:16). Baptism is not presented as a mere symbol detached from salvation, but as the God-ordained expression of faith’s surrender.

Nor does Scripture allow for a profession of faith that bears no fruit. Jesus warns, “You are My friends if you do whatever I command you” (John 15:14), and the apostle John reinforces this truth: “By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar” (1 John 2:3–4). The walk of obedience does not earn salvation, but it confirms its reality.

To claim that Christ’s atonement automatically covers all people, irrespective of faith, repentance, and obedience, is to sever provision from purpose and grace from transformation. The gospel does not proclaim a salvation that bypasses the will, ignores accountability, or renders human response irrelevant. It proclaims a salvation freely offered, costly accomplished, and personally received.

Christ died for all, but only those who believe, obey, and walk in him are said to be “in Christ.” Anything less reduces the cross to a transaction without repentance and grace without lordship, ideas foreign to the teaching of Christ and his apostles.

@Jay Ross @quietthinker @WalterandDebbie, if you hold to a substitutionary model of atonement as the basis of justification and salvation, you are more likely to arrive at a position like SteVen’s, which ultimately stands on the wrong side of God Manifestation and Christ’s representative atonement.

Once it is understood that Christ required salvation, both the substitutionary model and universalism are set aside as false.
Your position and arguments have no credibility with this brown duck!

God's purposes and their manifestation in Jesus' reality have been revealed before you existed. This is now proclaimed to the whole World as good news. Your choices can not bring anything into existence except by you discarding of the gift freely given you.

Your choice is not to get into the book of life but to exit from it........and you exit from it by the insistence of misrepresenting God.
 
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Beebster

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Hi St. Steven,

Yes, Jesus Christ will save every person that has ever lived, is living now, and those that come in the future. That is the basis for sound doctrine. If you don't have that, you don't know Christ and you will bury yourself in lies.
 
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rvmb

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Hi St. Steven,

Yes, Jesus Christ will save every person that has ever lived, is living now, and those that come in the future. That is the basis for sound doctrine. If you don't have that, you don't know Christ and you will bury yourself in lies.
""Yes, Jesus Christ will save every person that has ever lived,""
From your understanding, how does a believer today receive the HS ?
 

Beebster

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""Yes, Jesus Christ will save every person that has ever lived,""
From your understanding, how does a believer today receive the HS ?
I don't think I know how to answer that because we all have different walks.

I was an atheist for many years, and I would always tell people that the "Bible" was nonsense; all that mattered was love and forgiveness. That's all you really needed to find peace in this life.

I remember, I had just written a paper on the "Myth of Hell" and it (Holy Spirit) hit me hard. I was pacing, sweating and couldn't sit.

You see, I realized (because as an atheist and studied scripture to prove Christians wrong) that the scriptures teach that God is Love and that Christ is forgiveness.

I was floored.
 

Beebster

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By the way, rvmb, that story I just told is not about me and how I wrote a paper and was an atheist yadayadayadya.....

All of it was Christ drawing me to him.
 

rvmb

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By the way, rvmb, that story I just told is not about me and how I wrote a paper and was an atheist yadayadayadya.....

All of it was Christ drawing me to him.
Hey Beeb, thx for the response.
""That's all you really needed to find peace in this life.""
Do you believe in an afterlife ?
 

Beebster

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Hey Beeb, thx for the response.
""That's all you really needed to find peace in this life.""
No, peace comes from knowing that God is in charge of EVERTHING.

Do you believe in an afterlife ?
I believe what the scriptures teach. When you die you are dead.
And we will all be resurrected.
Some will be resurrected to eonian life while others will be resurrected through the lake of fire.
But all of us will be resurrected.
 
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rvmb

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No, peace comes from knowing that God is in charge of EVERTHING.


I believe what the scriptures teach. When you die you are dead.
And we will all be resurrected.
Some will be resurrected to eonian life while others will be resurrected through the lake of fire.
But all of us will be resurrected.
Yes and what do you believe is required of a believer today to enter eternal life ?
 

Beebster

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Yes and what do you believe is required of a believer today to enter eternal life ?
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Interestingly enough, if you don't know who the Lord is then calling on him is moot.

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD. (John 4:14)

And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD. (John 4:42)

Many will dispute that double witness but:

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Mat 7:22-23)

I know of no other group that will profess these wonderful works and call Christ Lord other than Christians, yet he says to them "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

So if you have hope for eonian life (not eternal life) in the first resurrection you had better start teaching that Christ will do exactly what his Father sent him to do which is to SAVE THE WHOLE WORLD.

You must ditch the false doctrines and:


Revelation 18:4
-COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues (false doctrines).

Good Night rvmb.

 

rvmb

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Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Interestingly enough, if you don't know who the Lord is then calling on him is moot.

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD. (John 4:14)

And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD. (John 4:42)

Many will dispute that double witness but:

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Mat 7:22-23)

I know of no other group that will profess these wonderful works and call Christ Lord other than Christians, yet he says to them "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

So if you have hope for eonian life (not eternal life) in the first resurrection you had better start teaching that Christ will do exactly what his Father sent him to do which is to SAVE THE WHOLE WORLD.

You must ditch the false doctrines and:


Revelation 18:4
-COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues (false doctrines).

Good Night rvmb.
Always learning yet for now I stick with salvation as taught by Paul because of Acts 9:15, Acts 15:6-25 Gal 2:7-9, Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16.
Rom 9:3, Rom 10:1, Rom 11:1 appears to teach that Rom 10:13 is a requirement of Israel & not the Gentiles.
Happy to politely discuss views.
 
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Hiddenthings

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Your position and arguments have no credibility with this brown duck!
When you lack the wisdom to engage with truth - If you want credibility, engage the substance rather than resorting to slow trains or brown ducks!
God's purposes and their manifestation in Jesus' reality have been revealed before you existed. This is now proclaimed to the whole World as good news. Your choices can not bring anything into existence except by you discarding of the gift freely given you.
Can you see your contradiction?
Your choice is not to get into the book of life but to exit from it........and you exit from it by the insistence of misrepresenting God.
This is the first time I’ve seen you differ from Steven’s universalist position. Have you moved away from that view?

Out of interest how do you believe your name is written into the book of life?

In Revelation 13:8 you and SteVen may have a slight problem here:

Revelation 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast, all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

I seriously doubt that you understand Revelation 13, and I am certain that neither you nor Steven understands how a person’s name is written in the Book of Life.

What's ironic is you both probably believe everyone's names start (automatic) in the book o_O - how wrong you both are!
 

Hiddenthings

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If you understand the context to Revelation 13:8 you will know the slain was (foreknown) from the foundation of the world which indicates that the Book of Life has existed since the very beginning of creation. See Exodus 32:32; Daniel 12:1–2; Matthew 25:34; Revelation 17:8

On what basis is your name written in the book and what are the consequences of us removing it?
 

Beebster

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Always learning yet for now I stick with salvation as taught by Paul because of Acts 9:15, Acts 15:6-25 Gal 2:7-9, Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16.
Rom 9:3, Rom 10:1, Rom 11:1 appears to teach that Rom 10:13 is a requirement of Israel & not the Gentiles.
What salvation is that?

Can you explain what being saved is? (Lots of differing opinions on this)

Do you think Paul is in alignment with Christ when it comes to what he taught and what Jesus taught?

Happy to politely discuss views.
Me too.
 

rvmb

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What salvation is that?

Can you explain what being saved is? (Lots of differing opinions on this)

Do you think Paul is in alignment with Christ when it comes to what he taught and what Jesus taught?

Me too.

""Do you think Paul is in alignment with Christ when it comes to what he taught and what Jesus taught?""
Yes because :-
Acts 9:15 - Christ selected Paul to teach the Gentiles
Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16 Paul confirms his role to the Gentiles
Gal 2:7-9 The other Apostles confirmed that Paul teaches the Gentiles/heathen/UNcircumcision
Acts 15:6-25 can you see a change occurring ?
""Can you explain what being saved is? (Lots of differing opinions on this)""
For saved believers today >> eternal life in Eph 1:3, Eph 2:6.
***
The ONLY confusion I see is when the teachings of ALL the Apostles are blended together instead of understanding that the 12 had a role to a different age/audience than Paul to us today > Gal 3:28, 1 Cor 112:13, Col 3:11, Gal 6:15
 
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St. SteVen

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What makes a doctrine false?

Please quote what you would like to respond to. Thanks.

1. You've never heard it before. (knee-jerk defensive response)

2. You have heard of it before, but assume it's false. (haven't looked into it)

3. Doesn't align with your church's doctrine (your church would say it is false)

4. Doesn't align with your personal doctrine (your views differ)

5. YOUR "Bible" says it is false. (other biblical opinions don't matter)

6. It makes you uncomfortable. (therefore it must be wrong)

7. Everyone knows it's false. (except those who believe it)
 

amigo de christo

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Doctrine is false when it contradicts the TRUTH . Every WORD of GOD is TRUTH .
Let us learn the scriptures well . L ooks like steven is up to no good as usual . S teven
has been deconstructed .