What makes you right?

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Harvest 1874

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If I'd have proposed that the Earth passes out of existence, you'd be right and every single one of your texts would disprove me.

However, what I show from Scripture is that the Earth will experience a period of desolation, which none of those texts disproves. In fact, the verse about "new heavens and new earth" precisely proves my point. The "heavens and the earth which are now" are going to burn up, followed by the "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

That period of desolation is not accounted for by modern, popular eschatological Jesuit ideas by religionists who totally discount Historicism. :)

Well I do not discount Historicism as it pertains to the bible in fact I believe it to be the only true method of interpretation, however I should still very much like to see your list of scriptures which as you say, describe “an earth that is destroyed, empty, darkened, silent, and devoid of all life (except for Satan and his demons) which Earthly period follows the Second Coming”.
 

Phoneman777

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Well I do not discount Historicism as it pertains to the bible in fact I believe it to be the only true method of interpretation, however I should still very much like to see your list of scriptures which as you say, describe “an earth that is destroyed, empty, darkened, silent, and devoid of all life (except for Satan and his demons) which Earthly period follows the Second Coming”.
The same verses which people point to as "proof" that there was an Earth and humans which were destroyed before God started over with Adam and Eve.
 

Harvest 1874

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The same verses which people point to as "proof" that there was an Earth and humans which were destroyed before God started over with Adam and Eve.

Which "people" point to, which "people" might these be?

Those who believe in the erroneous gap theory?

A theory that supposes that He who's works are all perfect some how failed in His first attempt which required Him to do a "do over" in order to attempt to get it right the second time.

You can't possibly believe such nonsense.

I still would like to see your specific "proof" texts that the earth is to become desolate devoid of all life.
 

Phoneman777

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Which "people" point to, which "people" might these be?

Those who believe in the erroneous gap theory?

A theory that supposes that He who's works are all perfect some how failed in His first attempt which required Him to do a "do over" in order to attempt to get it right the second time.

You can't possibly believe such nonsense.

I still would like to see your specific "proof" texts that the earth is to become desolate devoid of all life.
You've never heard of Christians who claim passages like Jeremiah 4:23-28 "prove" Adam and Eve were God's do-over? They recognize it's speaking of a global destruction, but have no place to fit it in there eschatology, so they relegate it to before Adam.
 

Harvest 1874

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You've never heard of Christians who claim passages like Jeremiah 4:23-28 "prove" Adam and Eve were God's do-over? They recognize it's speaking of a global destruction, but have no place to fit it in there eschatology, so they relegate it to before Adam.

I have heard of them, however I was trying to determine whether or not YOU believed this nonsense.

You have me confused now as to whether or not its you who believes the earth will be desolate and devoid of life following the Second Advent of our Lord or if you are saying these individuals believe this.

In Post # 101, I stated:

"I should still very much like to see your list of scriptures which as you say, describe “an earth that is destroyed, empty, darkened, silent, and devoid of all life (except for Satan and his demons) which Earthly period follows the Second Coming”.

Rather than presenting any viable text in support of this position instead you replied with the following statement:

"The same verses which "people" point to as "proof" that there was an Earth and humans which were destroyed before God started over with Adam and Eve."

This appears to imply that you concur with their belief in the gap theory or at the very least you believe Jeremiah 4:23-28 supports this idea that the earth will be desolate and devoid of life following the Second Advent.

If I am mistaken, please explain.
 

Phoneman777

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I have heard of them, however I was trying to determine whether or not YOU believed this nonsense.

You have me confused now as to whether or not its you who believes the earth will be desolate and devoid of life following the Second Advent of our Lord or if you are saying these individuals believe this.

In Post # 101, I stated:

"I should still very much like to see your list of scriptures which as you say, describe “an earth that is destroyed, empty, darkened, silent, and devoid of all life (except for Satan and his demons) which Earthly period follows the Second Coming”.

Rather than presenting any viable text in support of this position instead you replied with the following statement:

"The same verses which "people" point to as "proof" that there was an Earth and humans which were destroyed before God started over with Adam and Eve."

This appears to imply that you concur with their belief in the gap theory or at the very least you believe Jeremiah 4:23-28 supports this idea that the earth will be desolate and devoid of life following the Second Advent.

If I am mistaken, please explain.
Sorry, I thought I was clear enough. My position is that all those verses like in Isaiah 24, Jeremiah 4, etc. which describe a desolate, empty, uninhabited Earth refer to the destruction that happens in "the day of the Lord" when He comes "as a thief in the night" according to Peter, when the heavens and earth pass away and burn up, leaving behind nothing but a bunch of ashes on a desolate rock for a thousand years, after which New Jerusalem descends to our little planet as the new "capital" of the Universe which will be recreated as the New Earth.

Those verses have nothing to do with a previous creation and also do not fit anywhere in the Jesuit Futurist interpretation of prophecy, which describes non-stop human activity on Earth from now into eternity.
 

Harvest 1874

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Sorry, I thought I was clear enough. My position is that all those verses like in Isaiah 24, Jeremiah 4, etc. which describe a desolate, empty, uninhabited Earth refer to the destruction that happens in "the day of the Lord" when He comes "as a thief in the night" according to Peter, when the heavens and earth pass away and burn up, leaving behind nothing but a bunch of ashes on a desolate rock for a thousand years, after which New Jerusalem descends to our little planet as the new "capital" of the Universe which will be recreated as the New Earth.

Those verses have nothing to do with a previous creation and also do not fit anywhere in the Jesuit Futurist interpretation of prophecy, which describes non-stop human activity on Earth from now into eternity.

Thanks for the clarification; however we must respectively disagree with your conclusions. Let us examine some of your “proof” text which you believe imply that the earth will become desolate and devoid of life for a thousand years.

We begin with 2 Pet 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” (2 Pet 3:10)

The “heavens” and the “earth” here mentioned do not refer to the literal heavens and earth, but rather to the symbolic heavens and earth, that is, theheavenshere mentioned represent the ecclesiastical heavens, the ruling powers, both religious and political, but more particularly the spiritual controlling powers presently in control, Satan, and the fallen angels with him.

It is these ruling powers both religious and political which will pass away with a great noise (in turmoil and confusion) as well as, the elements (of society), which will melt with fervent heat (in great conflict which is even now beginning to brew, in tumult, strife, human passion and wrath leading eventually to anarchy), in which both the earth (the social order as now presently organized under Satan’s control) and the works (pride, rank, race, selfishness) that are in it will be burned up (swallowed up, dissolved).”

These are the “heavens and earth”, which shall, perish, which are reserved for the fire” (trouble) of the Great Day, the Day of His Vengeance, the Great Time of Trouble (i.e. Armageddon), which the Scriptures inform us will be burned up, dissolved, this in order to make way for the NEWheavens” and “earth” (2 Pet 3:13) new spiritual powers, Christ’s Kingdom, our Lord taking the place of Satan, and his body the Church, taking the place of the fallen angles, a new religious order or system, one based upon truth and righteousness. A NEWearth”, a new social order, reorganized on the basis of love and justice.

Though the earth be removed (the present organization of society be dissolved), and though the mountains (the kingdoms and governments) be carried into the midst of the sea (into the restless anarchist masses); its waters (peoples, the discontented masses) roar and be troubled (as is evident even now), the mountains shake with its swelling (the governments troubled, worried concerned by this uproar).” (Psa 46 :1-3) nevertheless we shall not be moved nor alarmed for we have been forewarned of these events in advance and know that they are necessary in order to make way for the new order of things, the Lord’s Kingdom.

Let us now examine Jeremiah’s prophecy.

I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; and the heavens, they had no light. ‘I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled, and all the hills moved back and forth. I beheld, and indeed there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens had fled. I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, and all its cities were broken down At the presence of the Lord, By His fierce anger. For thus says the Lord: “The whole land shall be desolate; yet I will not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, And the heavens above be black, Because I have spoken. I have purposed and will not relent, nor will I turn back from it.” (Jer 4:23-28)

This has nothing to do with the idea of the earth being desolate and without life following the Lord’s Second Advent; this was a prophecy by Jeremiah concerning the impending trouble coming upon Israel. Let us go back a bit and consider the context from which these statements are made. In Verses 1-4 the Lord states:

If you will return, O Israel,” says the Lord, “Return to me; and if you will put away your abominations out of my sight, Then you shall not be moved [but they did not heed, and were scattered abroad]. And you shall swear, ‘The Lord lives,’ in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; the nations shall bless themselves in Him [the gentiles who received Christ did just that], and in Him they shall glory.” For thus says the Lord to the men of Judah and Jerusalem:

“Break up your fallow ground, And do not sow among thorns. Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your hearts [“circumcision is that of the heart,” Rom 2:29], You men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Lest My fury come forth like fire, And burn so that no one can quench it, Because of the evil of your doings.”

Jeremiah recognized such repentance was not forthcoming, and predicted the consequences (Verses 7–13). The Babylonians worked this vengeance in Jeremiah’s day, and the Romans in Jesus day. Then Jeremiah expressed the sad conditions in Judaism in terms drawn from Genesis. "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light" (Verse 23).

Here the prophet was using a metaphor (a term or phrase applied to something to which it is not literally applicable, but nevertheless suggest a resemblance.)

This would be similar to the Prophet Joel when speaking of the Day of the Lord, the Day of Darkness (the great time of trouble) when he mentions the coming of a people, “great and strong (the Lord’s great army, the unrestrained anarchist masses of mankind), the like of whom has never been; nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations.” (Joel 2:1, 2)

They come from a far country, from the end of heaven (from all four corners of the earth), even the Lord, and the weapons (instruments) of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.” (Isa 13:5)

A fire devours before them, and behind them a flame burns; the land is like the Garden of Eden before them, And behind them a desolate wilderness; surely nothing shall escape them.” (Verse 3)

The land is like the Garden of Eden before them, that is to say prior to their coming in which they rape and pillage the land destroying everything in their wake, the land was like the Garden of Eden viz. when once you were safe in the comfort of your own home, when there was law and order, when you had running water, electricity, and could simply go to the store if you were hungry. Those days will be longed for.

This reign of anarchy is analogous (i.e. corresponds in some particular; is similar or comparable) to the earth beingwithout form (order) and void”.

We will take a look at Isaiah 24 in my subsequent post.
 

Phoneman777

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Thanks for the clarification; however we must respectively disagree with your conclusions. Let us examine some of your “proof” text which you believe imply that the earth will become desolate and devoid of life for a thousand years.

We begin with 2 Pet 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” (2 Pet 3:10)

The “heavens” and the “earth” here mentioned do not refer to the literal heavens and earth, but rather to the symbolic heavens and earth, that is, theheavenshere mentioned represent the ecclesiastical heavens, the ruling powers, both religious and political, but more particularly the spiritual controlling powers presently in control, Satan, and the fallen angels with him.

It is these ruling powers both religious and political which will pass away with a great noise (in turmoil and confusion) as well as, the elements (of society), which will melt with fervent heat (in great conflict which is even now beginning to brew, in tumult, strife, human passion and wrath leading eventually to anarchy), in which both the earth (the social order as now presently organized under Satan’s control) and the works (pride, rank, race, selfishness) that are in it will be burned up (swallowed up, dissolved).”

These are the “heavens and earth”, which shall, perish, which are reserved for the fire” (trouble) of the Great Day, the Day of His Vengeance, the Great Time of Trouble (i.e. Armageddon), which the Scriptures inform us will be burned up, dissolved, this in order to make way for the NEWheavens” and “earth” (2 Pet 3:13) new spiritual powers, Christ’s Kingdom, our Lord taking the place of Satan, and his body the Church, taking the place of the fallen angles, a new religious order or system, one based upon truth and righteousness. A NEWearth”, a new social order, reorganized on the basis of love and justice.

Though the earth be removed (the present organization of society be dissolved), and though the mountains (the kingdoms and governments) be carried into the midst of the sea (into the restless anarchist masses); its waters (peoples, the discontented masses) roar and be troubled (as is evident even now), the mountains shake with its swelling (the governments troubled, worried concerned by this uproar).” (Psa 46 :1-3) nevertheless we shall not be moved nor alarmed for we have been forewarned of these events in advance and know that they are necessary in order to make way for the new order of things, the Lord’s Kingdom.

Let us now examine Jeremiah’s prophecy.

I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; and the heavens, they had no light. ‘I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled, and all the hills moved back and forth. I beheld, and indeed there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens had fled. I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, and all its cities were broken down At the presence of the Lord, By His fierce anger. For thus says the Lord: “The whole land shall be desolate; yet I will not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, And the heavens above be black, Because I have spoken. I have purposed and will not relent, nor will I turn back from it.” (Jer 4:23-28)

This has nothing to do with the idea of the earth being desolate and without life following the Lord’s Second Advent; this was a prophecy by Jeremiah concerning the impending trouble coming upon Israel. Let us go back a bit and consider the context from which these statements are made. In Verses 1-4 the Lord states:

If you will return, O Israel,” says the Lord, “Return to me; and if you will put away your abominations out of my sight, Then you shall not be moved [but they did not heed, and were scattered abroad]. And you shall swear, ‘The Lord lives,’ in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; the nations shall bless themselves in Him [the gentiles who received Christ did just that], and in Him they shall glory.” For thus says the Lord to the men of Judah and Jerusalem:

“Break up your fallow ground, And do not sow among thorns. Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your hearts [“circumcision is that of the heart,” Rom 2:29], You men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Lest My fury come forth like fire, And burn so that no one can quench it, Because of the evil of your doings.”

Jeremiah recognized such repentance was not forthcoming, and predicted the consequences (Verses 7–13). The Babylonians worked this vengeance in Jeremiah’s day, and the Romans in Jesus day. Then Jeremiah expressed the sad conditions in Judaism in terms drawn from Genesis. "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light" (Verse 23).

Here the prophet was using a metaphor (a term or phrase applied to something to which it is not literally applicable, but nevertheless suggest a resemblance.)

This would be similar to the Prophet Joel when speaking of the Day of the Lord, the Day of Darkness (the great time of trouble) when he mentions the coming of a people, “great and strong (the Lord’s great army, the unrestrained anarchist masses of mankind), the like of whom has never been; nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations.” (Joel 2:1, 2)

They come from a far country, from the end of heaven (from all four corners of the earth), even the Lord, and the weapons (instruments) of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.” (Isa 13:5)

A fire devours before them, and behind them a flame burns; the land is like the Garden of Eden before them, And behind them a desolate wilderness; surely nothing shall escape them.” (Verse 3)

The land is like the Garden of Eden before them, that is to say prior to their coming in which they rape and pillage the land destroying everything in their wake, the land was like the Garden of Eden viz. when once you were safe in the comfort of your own home, when there was law and order, when you had running water, electricity, and could simply go to the store if you were hungry. Those days will be longed for.

This reign of anarchy is analogous (i.e. corresponds in some particular; is similar or comparable) to the earth beingwithout form (order) and void”.

We will take a look at Isaiah 24 in my subsequent post.
Spiritualize it all you want, but you're wrong. When Jesus comes back, ain't nothing on this planet going to have a pulse until after the 1,000 years.

Jeremiah also says "the slain of the Lord in that day shall be from one end of the Earth even to the other end". It that spiritualized too? They're not going to be lamented or gathered or buried...because nobody is going to be here. But, you will you spiritualize that to mean just a local catastrophe too?
 

n2thelight

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Okay one of the reasons I started this thread was to show that everybody doesn't have it right,myself included.

I say that to say,that's the reason for the strong delusion that God shall send.The reason being everybody can't handle the truth and to know the truth and not do it,condemns you.

II Thessalonians 2:10 "And with all deceivableness [deceit] of unrighteousness in [for] them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth,"

God is writing this letter to us personally, and we are responsible for understanding it. We are accountable to God to give answer for our actions. It is you and I, individually, that will stand before God and give our personal answer for the personal handling of His Word. There will be no preacher, friend or family member with you on that judgment day, for they will all be explaining and accounting for their own words and actions. If your pastor is one of the false shepherds, and led many saints astray, his ignorance won't help him or you.

This is something we must think about, our souls are at stake here.

II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion [send them a working of error], that they should a lie;"

If you want to believe a lie, God will allow it; in fact he will help you into the system of deceptions Satan will bring on the earth. Do you really think God will come here and personally show you, and talk to you when you refuse to believe His Word, when He gave it in such detail through the prophets and His Son. If you desire to believe that your going to fly out of here, and refuse His word, He will so block your mind that you will not be capable of understanding truth. God will send the "strong delusion" over your mind. The strong delusion is an act of love given by God for your protection.

II Thessalonians 2:12 "That they all might be damned [judged] who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

This is the reason for the "strong delusion" of verse eleven; "That they might be damned", it would be more accurately translated "condemned". Condemned for not believing the truth in God's Word when given to them. They had the warning, but still followed Satan, and partook in his religious system.

"Pleasure in unrighteousness" is not referring to drunken brawls, or whore houses, but it is a continuation of the subject here at hand. That subject is "worshipping the Antichrist [Satan] as the true Christ." You will take pleasure in that damnable sin; that unrighteous act will be done in your total ignorance. It's easy to say "I'm saved", but saved from what? The subject here has changed from that of verse eight, to "being damned through deception." The traditions of men will change this subject, from "being deceived by Satan, and enjoying it" to petty activities of the day.

If you know the truth and still follow satan you will be condemned ,that's why all but the elect will be deceived ,as those deceived will still have a chance to come out of her(babylon)confusion
 

aspen

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My message for right now is that as a Man in the flesh Jesus completion of the test is validity and he could have been there. He could have been a God but he may be a man.

Kilmer,

What if we decided to question our present culture and how it has shaped us, right now, rather than first racing to place 2,000+ years of understanding regarding Christ and His church on trial?

Hear me out for a minute. I am all for re-examining old ideas and sacred cows, but it is important to understand and build a foundation with all the knowledge you can about those ideas before challenging them. Take the doctrine of the Trinity, it is easy to believe a few dozen church leaders got together with a couple casks of wine and pulled the idea out of the air and declaring the meeting a council just to give it some legitimacy. Yet, a closer study of the history of the Counsel of Nicaea reveals the scholarship and the culmination of centuries of understanding of the nature of God, which was rigorously debated before declaring what the majority of Christians were already practicing.

Today’s disregard of the scholarship of the past (which is rampant and appalling - see CS Lewis), combined with a hyper-drive to challenge every idea we come across in order to reinvent (add our signature, mark our territory, control) centuries worth of understanding, is a hallmark of modern American culture. Unfortunately, it often disregards history and replaces it with a private, subjective opinion and I think it is one of my least favorite parts of my culture.
 
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farouk

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Kilmer,

What if we decided to question our present culture and how it has shaped us, right now, rather than first racing to place 2,000+ years of understanding regarding Christ and His church on trial?

Hear me out for a minute. I am all for re-examining old ideas and sacred cows, but it is important to understand everything you can about those ideas before challenging them. Take the the doctrine of the Trinity, it is easy to believe a few dozen church leaders got together with a couple casks of wine and pulled the idea out of the air and then, called the meeting a council just to give it some legitimacy. Yet, a closer study of the history of the Counsel of Nicaea reveals the scholarship and the culmination of centuries of understand of the nature of God, which was rigorously debated before declaring what the majority of Christians were already practicing.

Today’s disregard of the scholarship of the past (which is rampant and appalling - see CS Lewis), combined with the hyper-drive to challenge every idea we come across into order to reinvent (add our signature, mark our territory, control) centuries worth of understanding is a hallmark of modern American culture. It disregards history and replaces it with subjective opinion and I think it is one of my least favorite parts of my culture.
Indeed, the doctrine of the Trinity is Scriptural.
 

Philip James

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With all the different doctrines going around ,how do you know you right and everybody else is wrong?

Hello n2thelight,

Well firstly I don't assume that everybody else is wrong or that I am right...
I submit my understanding to that of my brethren over the last 2000 years.. For the Truth does not change... And WE have the mind of Christ..

Things I have seen and experienced confirm that understanding..

But regardless of my understanding I put my faith and hope in my Lord, Jesus Christ, trusting in HIS understanding and mercy...

For who can argue with HIS judgements?

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!

Christ IS risen!
Alleluia!
 
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n2thelight

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Hello n2thelight,

Well firstly I don't assume that everybody else is wrong or that I am right...
I submit my understanding to that of my brethren over the last 2000 years.. For the Truth does not change... And WE have the mind of Christ..

Things I have seen and experienced confirm that understanding..

But regardless of my understanding I put my faith and hope in my Lord, Jesus Christ, trusting in HIS understanding and mercy...

For who can argue with HIS judgements?

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!

Christ IS risen!
Alleluia!

I understand what you are saying,and yes,the truth does not change,but we all have an opinion of what that truth is ,we go back and forth on what that truth is,I tried to present the OP,as everybody can't be right.

Christ is risen is the most important part,however ,that's just the milk,and a babe can still be deceived
 
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Philip James

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ah, Paul's "wolves," yeh, that's def a pop one huh. Many will be deceived ain't in there for nothin i guess :)

Hello bbyrd,

Wolves, whether within or without cannot destroy the Church, the Holy Spirit does not allow it, and so the Truth continues to be proclaimed and lived down through the centuries..,

A hired man, who is not a shepherd and whose sheep are not his own, sees a wolf coming and leaves the sheep and runs away, and the wolf catches and scatters them.

Peace be with you!
 
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aspen

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Looking for perfection in doctrine, authority, or in history is an effective way to remain on the bench as a critic. Neither God nor the world loves a critic. Time to get into the game