What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

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4Jesus

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Brakelite said The question is whether Mormons can justifiably call themselves Christian based on what doctrines...true teachings...that both belief systems hold...and there are vast differences.

Justifiably....that is problem! She does not need to justify her beliefs to you or anybody. You do not hold the rule.


Neither does anyone here to anyone else, brakelite included. He can have his opinion, just like you, JD, PW, and I. This is a discussion. You do not hold the rule of what can and cannot be discussed. No one here is forced into this conversation.

True teachings.....Man you have to be kidding! 30,000 some odd different Protestant interpretations of true teachings. Which one is right?...yours...you are the judge? You decide the rules of justification?


Like what you're doing here? You're projecting onto brakelite what you yourself are doing.

Both belief systems....and you are only worried about two?
How many religions can you say you do not believe in? You could probably say there are a lot of these 30,000 denominations you do not believe in, and that is fine. But when you say justify, that means that you have some sort of self delusion that makes you the judge, and you are no judge in such matters. You only have the right to judge that their religion is not yours....it is not your call, if they are Christians or not. You place yourself as God. That is a problem.


Who said he's only worried about two? You just pulled that out of thin air.

In fact I know brakelite isn't "only worried about two", and it's provable. You're argument is void.

Brakelite is not placing himself as God, not even close. He does have an opinion though, just like everyone else.

Pot luck lunch....Baskin & Robins...31 flavors, we could only wish the numbers would be that low.
To say you do not believe in their beliefs is enough....anymore than that and you place yourself as a judge in the affairs of God. As I said before the scriptures are there, written in ink on paper, but the Word of God is living and cannot be bound by any book. Beyond that, just common sense, it would be an absurd idea to think that the Trinity has not been active over the last 2000 years. Interacting with humanity in so many ways with revelations and movements of the Holy Spirit, and the Grace of God. No the Trinity did not retire or wait on the justification of brakelite to be God.

Who are you to say when more than something is too much, and judging?
"Which one is right?...yours...you are the judge? You decide the rules of justification?"

There's a word for this.

Now you're throwing accusations that brakelite is placing himself as God, which is false, since he's stating his opinion. He doesn't have the authority to judge, nor do you and I. We are all allowed an opinion however, both ways.
 
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4Jesus

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Good morning PW.

Good morning everyone! (For you Aussies on here, is it good night?)
After getting a good night's sleep and giving everyone's emotions time to cool down, I have a few things to say.
1. Judging one another's motives needs to stop! Jesus tells us not to judge for a good reason. Let's keep our comments to the material presented and not people's character..... I have seen more than one thread on this topic derailed because of this.

Agreed.

2. Just because someone doesn't like what a person is saying, this doesn't mean that it should not be said. If this were the case, then most of what's written in this forum wouldn't be here. But I believe this exchange of ideas is important and should continue.

***For that matter, if this were the case, most of what was written in the Bible wouldn't be there.

Anyone here can leave the conversation at any point; no one is being force here. If one doesn't like what is being discussed, one can continue to converse or leave. This applies to us all.

3. At times tempers have flared and emotions have gotten out of hand. My suggestion is that if any of us is getting too emotional, take a break! Often things looks very different when the emotions have had a chance to settle down.

Good advice here for life, thanks.

I'm getting this thread back on topic. I would like to hear some comments about the things Lynn Wilder has said in her book. I'll be posting more excerpts today. If you are tempted to say anything against her character (or anyone else's), please don't!

Otherwise, have fun! :)

I'm still learning too much to be able to comment directly on the book, nor have I read it. This thread is making me want to though ;)
 
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Willie T

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[QUOTE="4Jesus, post: 627706, member: 8105"]

Neither does anyone here to anyone else, brakelite included. He can have his opinion, just like you, JD, PW, and I. This is a discussion. You do not hold the rule of what can and cannot be discussed. No one here is forced into this conversation.



Like what you're doing here? You're projecting onto brakelite what you yourself are doing.



Who said he's only worried about two? You just pulled that out of thin air.

In fact I know brakelite isn't "only worried about two", and it's provable. You're argument is void.

Brakelite is not placing himself as God, not even close. He does have an opinion though, just like everyone else.



Who are you to say when more than something is too much, and judging?
"Which one is right?...yours...you are the judge? You decide the rules of justification?"

There's a word for this.

Now you're throwing accusations that brakelite is placing himself as God, which is false, since he's stating his opinion. He doesn't have the authority to judge, nor do you and I. We are all allowed an opinion however, both ways.[/QUOTE]

*************
Entirely too confused a jumble of your words interspersed within the quotes of others to even follow. (And some of those quotes may not even show up here.)
 
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4Jesus

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The following excerpt is from Chapter 21 of Unveiling Grace: the Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church by Dr. Lynn Wilder:

Mormonism calls its spirit the “Holy Ghost.” It’s not the same as the eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, Holy Spirit of Truth from the Bible. The LDS Holy Ghost is described in the church manual for new members, Gospel Principles, as “a spirit that has the form and likeness of a man (D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at one time, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time.”(55) The Holy Ghost of Mormonism can be in only one place, but the Holy Spirit of the Bible is all places at once (Ps. 139:7 – 10). The Doctrine and Covenants says, “The idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false” (D&C 130:3). The Bible says that the Holy Spirit of Truth “lives in you” (1 Cor. 3:16 NIV 1984). As these conflicting passages demonstrate, they’re not the same spirit.​

Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (pp. 323-324). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

Footnotes:


55. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Gospel Principles (1997), 37.

Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (p. 366). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding something that was written in the above excerpt. When it's stated “a spirit that has the form and likeness of a man (D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at one time, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time.”, this definitely doesn't sound like the HS I know of from scripture.

It does remind me of someone else though, and the qualities ascribed are the same. It sounds like it's talking about an angel, which are also spirits. Angels are limited as described here; God-the-Father, God-the-Son, and God-the-Holy-Spirit has no such limitations.

As to the "but his influence can be everywhere at the same time", that is vague enough to mean "by his teachings he influences"; maybe I'm wrong on this, but perhaps not.
 

4Jesus

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[QUOTE="4Jesus, post: 627706, member: 8105"]

Neither does anyone here to anyone else, brakelite included. He can have his opinion, just like you, JD, PW, and I. This is a discussion. You do not hold the rule of what can and cannot be discussed. No one here is forced into this conversation.



Like what you're doing here? You're projecting onto brakelite what you yourself are doing.



Who said he's only worried about two? You just pulled that out of thin air.

In fact I know brakelite isn't "only worried about two", and it's provable. You're argument is void.

Brakelite is not placing himself as God, not even close. He does have an opinion though, just like everyone else.



Who are you to say when more than something is too much, and judging?
"Which one is right?...yours...you are the judge? You decide the rules of justification?"

There's a word for this.

Now you're throwing accusations that brakelite is placing himself as God, which is false, since he's stating his opinion. He doesn't have the authority to judge, nor do you and I. We are all allowed an opinion however, both ways.
*************
Entirely too confused a jumble of your words interspersed within the quotes of others to even follow. (And some of those quotes don't even show up here.)[/QUOTE]

Something got severly messed up quoting him. I see the issue in my quotes of him, and tried to edit it, but it's not saving the edit (and the quotations) for some reason.

The only thing that came out messed up is the two quotes of his, one right after the other. The words are all there though, even if broken up in two quotes.

If that alone is enough for you to not read it and say my words don't count, so be it. I think you're looking for any reason to discredit what I have to say though.

It's not that hard to follow; that's a stretch. If you look back at his post, his words are all there, in order...

Your quote of my post came out whacky looking too, so not sure what's going on.
 

Grailhunter

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Now hold up here; didn't you just accuse me of having bad manners of how I talk with a lady? And here you are saying something negative about PW.

You sure seem to like to sling the accusations and assumptions around, and don't question yourself if what you are doing is the same thing you're accusing, repeatedly. Those words from you earlier, with your overbearing attempt at authority, are hypocritical at best, and completely wrong at worst, as you still can't show me proof that I was rude and had bad manners to a lady, and yet, here is proof for you, from you.

You may be able to pull arguments out of thin air and think they are accurate and true, but that doesn't make it so in reality here.



No one here was acting unChristian-like, until recently. No one name-called, no one put another down. There is going to be disagreements; nothing wrong with that, that's why we're here, to discuss.

No one is forcing anyone in this thread to remain here. Anyone can stop at any time. No one is harassing another here, it's just basic conversation, one speaks, then another. Now if someone were to post to someone repeatedly with no reply, then that can be considered harassment, but that hasn't happened once - everyone is replying by choice.

And you are not the judge in this thread, nor on this board; you are not able to determine "Christianality" here, nor is anyone else; sure you can have an opinion, but so can others. You're using a logical fallacy here; the appeal to authority fallacy.



I think we all have had patience. There wasn't much, if at all, mudslinging, going on. It was a strictly logical and reasonable discussion by willing participants. Because one doesn't like the information therein, does not mean it's automatically "negative" or "wrong".

As to which "denomination" is right, when each are against the other, I'm with you on that. But no one here has called others non-Christian, so that argument is not relevant. I think the argument in this thread, at it's core, is aspects of denominations, which inherently means it is of that "parent" group, which is Christianity in this case.

Nope I am not rude to Ladies. PW is smart and stubborn, but stubbornness is not always a bad thing. No one here has the authority to determine who is Christian or who is not. Patience, courage, Jane has it hands down, she stood and took interrogation from all sides.
 

4Jesus

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Nope I am not rude to Ladies. PW is smart and stubborn, but stubbornness is not always a bad thing. No one here has the authority to determine who is Christian or who is not. Patience, courage, Jane has it hands down, she stood and took interrogation from all sides.

Na, that was rude and bad manners, laughing about it to reenforce the claim.

You have an opinion, cool. I do too. Hands down for me, it's a wash - patient and courageous both apply to PW as well.
 
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Grailhunter

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Na, that was rude and bad manners, laughing about it to reenforce the claim.

You have an opinion, cool. I do too. Hands down for me, it's a wash - patient and courageous both apply to PW as well.

You funny!
 

Willie T

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*************
Entirely too confused a jumble of your words interspersed within the quotes of others to even follow. (And some of those quotes don't even show up here.)

Something got severly messed up quoting him. I see the issue in my quotes of him, and tried to edit it, but it's not saving the edit (and the quotations) for some reason.

The only thing that came out messed up is the two quotes of his, one right after the other. The words are all there though, even if broken up in two quotes.

If that alone is enough for you to not read it and say my words don't count, so be it. I think you're looking for any reason to discredit what I have to say though.

It's not that hard to follow; that's a stretch. If you look back at his post, his words are all there, in order...

Your quote of my post came out whacky looking too, so not sure what's going on.[/QUOTE]
**************
It appears you are trying to answer three different people in one post. I tried to figure it out three separate times, and then I asked my wife, who is a Language Arts Major, to decipher it. Neither of us could, and she just walked away, shaking her head.
 

Prayer Warrior

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I'm not sure if I'm understanding something that was written in the above excerpt. When it's stated “a spirit that has the form and likeness of a man (D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at one time, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time.”, this definitely doesn't sound like the HS I know of from scripture.

It does remind me of someone else though, and the qualities ascribed are the same. It sounds like it's talking about an angel, which are also spirits. Angels are limited as described here; God-the-Father, God-the-Son, and God-the-Holy-Spirit has no such limitations.

As to the "but his influence can be everywhere at the same time", that is vague enough to mean "by his teachings he influences"; maybe I'm wrong on this, but perhaps not.

That's a good question, 4Jesus. Much appreciated!

It appears that the D&C is saying that the Holy Spirit has a physical form. It says, "the form and likeness of a man."

One of the problems I have had understanding Mormon doctrine has been their terminology. They don't use Bible terminology even though they claim the Bible as one of their scriptures. They seem to have a lingo all of their own. This is a problem for anyone trying to compare their doctrines with Bible doctrines.

Often, I'm seeing Mormons tell non-Mormons that we don't understand their beliefs (not just on this forum). This is the reason I started this thread--to give a former Mormon who now uses the Bible exclusively (as her sole scripture) the opportunity to explain what Mormons believe from a strictly biblical perspective.
 
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Prayer Warrior

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Nope I am not rude to Ladies. PW is smart and stubborn, but stubbornness is not always a bad thing. No one here has the authority to determine who is Christian or who is not. Patience, courage, Jane has it hands down, she stood and took interrogation from all sides.

LOL! I don't usually see that term used in a positive way, and I have to say that I didn't take it as positive.

Now the word persistent would have a more positive connotation--like the persistent widow. Maybe this should be my username--PW for Persistent Widow. It's a thought!
 
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Prayer Warrior

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Something got severly messed up quoting him. I see the issue in my quotes of him, and tried to edit it, but it's not saving the edit (and the quotations) for some reason.

The only thing that came out messed up is the two quotes of his, one right after the other. The words are all there though, even if broken up in two quotes.

If that alone is enough for you to not read it and say my words don't count, so be it. I think you're looking for any reason to discredit what I have to say though.

It's not that hard to follow; that's a stretch. If you look back at his post, his words are all there, in order...

Your quote of my post came out whacky looking too, so not sure what's going on.


@Willie T, did you see my message to you concerning your church??
 
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Grailhunter

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LOL! I don't usually see that term used in a positive way, and I have to say that I didn't take it as positive.

Now the word persistent would have a more positive connotation--like the persistent widow. Maybe this should be my username--PW for Persistent Widow. It's a thought!

Persistence is cool...Paul was stubborn....a character trait....whether he was persecuting the Christians or promoting the Christians. And he was smart....which proves that smart does not always mean you are right. From the beginning I was trying to get you to look at the big picture, you are persistent to stay focused on this topic....stubborn to consider that it is not the correct thing to do. Wanting to quiz some else about some else's claims. At best it subjective and offers inaccurate conclusions. Mormonism does has its secrets, but why? People have a tendency to keep what they believe is divinely precious away from scrutiny and criticism. Christ believed this...do not give pearls to the swine, they will just trample them under foot. I experienced a very visual and physical visitation by an angel...I don't share with to many people, because it is precious to me and for me.
 

Prayer Warrior

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Persistence is cool...Paul was stubborn....a character trait....whether he was persecuting the Christians or promoting the Christians. And he was smart....which proves that smart does not always mean you are right. From the beginning I was trying to get you to look at the big picture, you are persistent to stay focused on this topic....stubborn to consider that it is not the correct thing to do. Wanting to quiz some else about some else's claims. At best it subjective and offers inaccurate conclusions. Mormonism does has its secrets, but why? People have a tendency to keep what they believe is divinely precious away from scrutiny and criticism. Christ believed this...do not give pearls to the swine, they will just trample them under foot. I experienced a very visual and physical visitation by an angel...I don't share with to many people, because it is precious to me and for me.

This just proved my point. The word stubborn has negative connotations....

Moving right along.... Do you have anything to say about the specific excerpt I posted today (Post #419)? For instance, any light you can shed on what the D&C means? Or you going to persist in telling us why we shouldn't discuss Mormon doctrine???
 
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Grailhunter

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This just proved my point. The word stubborn has negative connotations....

Moving right along.... Do you have anything to say about the specific excerpt I posted today (Post #419)? For instance, any light you can shed on what the D&C means? Or you going to persist in telling us why we shouldn't discuss Mormon doctrine???

Book of Doctrines and Covenants....I have one...but it is packed away.
 

Grailhunter

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Yes, I know what that stands for. I'm asking if you have any comments on the quotes from D&C in my post #419.

No that does not sound at all right. Their model of the Trinity (and Jane may correct me on this) is like one the none official Protestant beliefs. Where God the Father and God the Son are different than the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is more spirit and less substance for lack of better words.
 
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Prayer Warrior

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No that does not sound at all right. Their model of the Trinity (and Jane may correct me on this) is like one the none official Protestant beliefs. Where God the Father and God the Son are different than the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is more spirit and less substance for lack of better words.

I appreciate the on-topic response. Are you saying that the quote from the D&C is incorrect?

Edit: I was mistaken about this. Wilder was quoting from the church manual for new members, Gospel Principles, which lists the D&C as a reference. (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Gospel Principles (1997), 37.)

Edit: This is directly from the LDS source:

Who Is the Holy Ghost?

The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a spirit that has the form and likeness of a man (see D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a time, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time.

Source: http://www.ldslearning.org/gospel-principles-1997.pdf

Sorry for all the edits. :(
 
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amadeus

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One of the problems I have had understanding Mormon doctrine has been their terminology. They don't use Bible terminology even though they claim the Bible as one of their scriptures. They seem to have a lingo all of their own. This is a problem for anyone trying to compare their doctrines with Bible doctrines.
This problem with communication is NOT just with Mormons. Catholics have a similar problem and likely others. I usually understand the Catholics as was once one of them, but they also use a lot a words and phrases that other Christian believers do not. This forum is a good teacher if there is enough participation by those using unusual language. Just wait until you see the language of our friend @bbyrd009 . He was suspended for a while, but he should be back just now. Learning to understand him may require an interpreter and he writes in English. The problem will be in finding a capable interpreter.